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Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:09 pm

Quoting n229nw (Reply 74):
Oh not this crap again. Have you actually ever looked at the Bible and seen how much God seems to condone and command genocidal violence, raping of women, killing of children born and unborn, etc.

The difference is that the Christian prophet was a fictional human being that supposedly preached a message of peace and tolerance (regardless of what other religious texts say) while the Muslim prophet was a real life human and historical figure who led armies, conquered territory by force, raped and pillaged and exhorted his followers to do the same.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 93):
So weird that the press

Since when is Buzzfeed "the press"? Clickbaity garbage would be more appropriate.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 100):
Human lives and the right to life will always be more important than someone's "right" to own a gun.

If you have some evidence that someone is actually going to use a gun to take away your, or someone else's, right to life then you should take that evidence to a judge.
 
ArmitageShanks
Posts: 3780
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:16 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 100):
I'd gladly take away the freedom to own guns if that ensured the freedom of normal people to enjoy their lives without the fear (or the actuality) of being blown away by some gun toting nut!!! Human lives and the right to life will always be more important than someone's "right" to own a gun.

4,735 pedestrians were stuck and killed by careless drivers in the USA last year. People minding their own business, killed by selfish car drivers.

Over 600 people were killed by boaters. People just enjoying their summer day, mowed down by a selfish boater.

I think we should ban boats and cars in the USA. That would save many many thousands of lives a year.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 97):
Wanting to get married and liking cake is a choice.

That everyone has, regardless of skin color, sexuality, religion, or ethnicity, BUT OF COURSE that's totally the same as a Nazi asking a Jewish deli to cater their wedding 
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 97):
So it's hypocrite then. You're okay with businesses exercising their beliefs in how they work as long as those beliefs align with yours.

Sure I'm a hypocrite in your tiny lil Ayn Randian world. And you're a racist bigot that thinks businesses should have a right to turn away people because of their skin color, sexuality, disability, ethnicity, or anything else they can't possibly change about themselves. Glad we settled that.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 99):
Let's call him racist for asking a moratorium on immigration from the region until better vetting is put in place. Let's call him a racist for rightly questioning the objectivity of a racist judge who is a member of a reconquista hate group.

?? The shooter was American

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 97):
I suppose I want to see everyone's rights left intact,

except the victims

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102):
If you have some evidence that someone is actually going to use a gun to take away your, or someone else's, right to life then you should take that evidence to a judge.

And how would that be done here? He was interviewed twice by the FBI, but by all means give him an arsenal. Wouldn't want his freedoms to be limited in any way

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 103):
I think we should ban boats and cars in the USA. That would save many many thousands of lives a year.

Or we could do like the NRA, totally ignore it, demand not one penny be spent on studying/fixing the issue, excoriate anyone trying to fix it for "politicizing it", and make sure everyone has ever-easier access to cars and boats no matter their competence

[Edited 2016-06-12 13:24:34]
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 98):
I am surprised that more people don't mention that ISIS was really only able to take root after the US invaded Iraq and then tried to destabilize the Assad regime when it was clear the protesters had lost.

I do the "I wish we could roll back time to..." thing all the time, but I have yet to reach a point in history where it would have mattered. Having said that, it's easy to see where we've made missteps for decades. Not sure if there's always an easy answer to every problem that would avoid future issues but clearly we have not always made things better.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 103):
4,735 pedestrians were stuck and killed by careless drivers in the USA last year. People minding their own business, killed by selfish car drivers.

Over 600 people were killed by boaters. People just enjoying their summer day, mowed down by a selfish boater.

I think we should ban boats and cars in the USA. That would save many many thousands of lives a year.

Let's just not, ok?

-Dave
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:26 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
That everyone has, regardless of skin color, sexuality, religion, or ethnicity, BUT OF COURSE that's totally the same as a Nazi asking a Jewish deli to cater their wedding 

I suppose the better option would be to just make a really lousy cake. It'd been a lot cheaper to refund for a bad cake and endure some hateful Yelp reviews than to lose their business and livelihood. Of course, they wouldn't be standing up for their beliefs, but since they'd be damned if they did and damned if they didn't......

-Dave
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1901
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:38 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
He was interviewed twice by the FBI, but by all means give him an arsenal. Wouldn't want his freedoms to be limited in any way

Should people investigated for sexual crimes go in the sex offender registry?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:45 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 97):

Fine, but don't pretend you're any different.

I'm going to self-censor my own response to this because it would get me banned.

One day you'll get your comeuppance.
 
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OA412
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:52 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 97):

Don't you see that this is all just multiple sides of the same unquestionably evil coin. Islamic extremists, Christian fundamentalists and leftists are all trying to make their own beliefs law in order to impose them on everyone. It's just evil people on all sides trying to enforce their own versions of sharia.

And you would not impose your anarcho-libertarian worldview on everyone given the chance? Right... That said, the idea that the left (let's not pretend you weren't referencing the entire left) is equally as evil as religious extremists is so distorted, so unbelievably ridiculous as to warrant no further serious discussion with you.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 96):

When did this guy become the Islamic State? The Islamic state is a radical organization based in Syria and Iraq where there is no rule of law. Pledging allegiance to ISIS doesn't mean he's the Islamic State, and it certainly doesn't mean ISIS suddenly operates under the rule of law and order.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 99):

How would banning Muslims from entering the US in the future have prevented this attack perpetrated by an American born here?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:05 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 112):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 96):

When did this guy become the Islamic State? The Islamic state is a radical organization based in Syria and Iraq where there is no rule of law. Pledging allegiance to ISIS doesn't mean he's the Islamic State, and it certainly doesn't mean ISIS suddenly operates under the rule of law and order.

This is getting to be a bit pedantic.

My point was that he pledged his allegiance to ISIS. Maybe he needed to get his paperwork filled out in order for you to actually consider him a member, but clearly he aligned with them enough to claim so then go kill/maim over a 100 people at a gay club.

He's an American citizen, born in the United States. He pledged his allegiance to ISIS. He killed/maimed scores. You stated that ISIS has no laws like the US and that that's the difference between them and Evangelical Christians - the US laws. Newsflash: He was a US citizen. What laws allowed him to do what he did in the name of his religion that somehow magically prevent all those evangelical Christians from doing the same?

-Dave
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:06 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 119):

Answer: a moral backbone.
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:10 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 118):


Wrong again. Evangelicals follow the gospel, aka New Testament. You're talking about fundamentalists and anabaptists that place inappropriate emphasis on the Old Testament. AKA fire and brimstone nonsense.

You're welcome for the education on one of the most misused terms in America.

[Edited 2016-06-12 14:12:42]
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:22 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
That everyone has, regardless of skin color, sexuality, religion, or ethnicity, BUT OF COURSE that's totally the same as a Nazi asking a Jewish deli to cater their wedding

Yes and the Jew should have every right not to serve them.

The bottom line is that you have carved out some special cases of people whom you think are worthy of being second class citizens and those whom are not. Your goal is to make sure that the government and everyone operates to the same criteria. In your world rights only matter if they are used in ways you agree with, otherwise you'll take them away.

Tolerance is great as long as it only extends to people you like.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
Sure I'm a hypocrite in your tiny lil Ayn Randian world.

You're a hypocrite an any world that has critical thinking and logic that is not tinted by hatred.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
And you're a racist bigot that thinks businesses should have a right to turn away people because of their skin color, sexuality, disability, ethnicity, or anything else they can't possibly change about themselves.

I'm neither a racist nor a bigot but I have infinite disdain for those who would impose their beliefs on others and violate their rights, whether that means forcing someone to sell a cake, forcing women to cover their heads, or banning sale of alcohol on Sunday.

I don't really care who you like or don't like and for what reasons. But when you try to violate people's rights and use the government as a weapon to do so then we have a big problem. And you're not special in that regard, I apply the same logic to anyone from the Black Panthers to the KKK.

Freedom means having the freedom to believe and do things I don't agree with. That's true liberty, and a far cry from your warped view of freedom that only extends to what you approve of.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
except the victims

If you can show that someone is likely to commit a crime if they are allowed to have a firearm then I fully agree with not allowing them to own a gun. Just don't try to do that without evidence or due process.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
And how would that be done here? He was interviewed twice by the FBI, but by all means give him an arsenal.

I'm sure the FBI will be investigating exactly what actions they took and why so we'll all get to make those judgments in due time.

If they did their due diligence and found nothing worth pursuing further or warranting removing his weapons then that is unfortunate but okay. Liberty means that sometimes bad things can happen even if you do everything right. The horror of people occasionally abusing freedom to violate the rights of others is infinitesimal compared to the horrors of removing freedom from everyone.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 104):
Wouldn't want his freedoms to be limited in any way

Taking away someone's rights should be difficult and not be done lightly.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
I'm going to self-censor my own response to this because it would get me banned.

Of course you are. It's the same reason you don't see any of the Westboro Baptists expressing their opinions on this site.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
One day you'll get your comeuppance.

Comeuppance for what? The audacity to be truly tolerant and speak up for people's rights? Doing that has cost a lot of people a very high price already, I'd hate to allow people like you to throw all of that away without at least trying to stop it.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 112):
And you would not impose your anarcho-libertarian worldview on everyone given the chance?

Show me where I have ever espoused anarchy.

Secondly, you can't really impose liberty on anyone since liberty is by definition the absence of any such imposition.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 112):
That said, the idea that the left (let's not pretend you weren't referencing the entire left) is equally as evil as religious extremists is so distorted, so unbelievably ridiculous as to warrant no further serious discussion with you.

You're falling into the liberal hypocrisy of deciding which rights are important to you and then trying to impose that hierarchy on everyone. The left and right are both trying to violate people's rights and I don't pretend to score which ones are most important to anyone besides myself.

Personally, the right to bear arms isn't important to me at all. I've never owned or even fired a gun but just because a right is not important to me does not mean it should not be defended. If I owned a bakery I'd sell every cake I could, gay or otherwise, but I do like the ability to buy beer on Sunday. Taking away rights is equally evil no matter which particular rights we're talking about, maybe not in my view but in someone's.

Opposition to libertarian views is really opposition to taking away your ability to try and make everyone do things your way.
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:23 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 122):


We properly use the term here in the states, it's grossly misused by others. Good day.

[Edited 2016-06-12 14:24:36]
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13635
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:28 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 97):


Don't you see that this is all just multiple sides of the same unquestionably evil coin. Islamic extremists, Christian fundamentalists, leftists and conservatives are all trying to make their own beliefs law in order to impose them on everyone. It's just evil people on all sides trying to enforce their own versions of sharia.

I just added a little extra which you missed but apart from that wee omission we are in whole hearted agreement! Well said.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 116):
And, as Doc noted, being religious is a choice not an immutable characteristic. We have to keep that in mind more often.

Everything in life is a choice.

The real issue here is some twit killed a lot of people, the gun debate is secondary to this.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:46 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 124):
We properly use the term here in the states, it's grossly misused by others. Good day.

Wow, there's an old favourite! "I am correct, everyone else is stupid, get lost!" Colour me impressed.
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 56):
This is about whether a club like this is ready to take down 1-2 gunmen at a moment's notice.

If not, they should be ready

One of several attitudes adopted by gun owners that will sooner or later loose them their gun rights is that the peaceful, non-gun-owning majority* should imitate the peaceful and non-peacful gun-owning minority's use of guns as a tool in their lives if they want to go to a nightclub or mall or school in safety.

Voting requires registration (and other hurdles in some states) + driving requires licensing - registering and licensing for guns is one way to keep your gun rights safe. Without workable solutions that don't require peaceful Americans to buy weaponry, gun rights will erode.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 83):
I don't think the dead care

Exactly.

...nor do the dead read this thread, nor their families. "Condolences" are just self-serving advertisements.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 99):
pretty scary how many progressives refuse to see the truth so as not to jump to conclusions despite the perpetrators outwardly proclaiming the truth that is so quickly dismissed.

I don't think any reasonable person, not Obama/Hillary, not "progressives", not even euro trash socialists fail to see the role Islam plays in the minds of killers and terrorists.

...the problem is borrowing the categorical name of a billion-plus-plus people and tagging it onto a tiny tiny handful of criminals.

...furthermore, thinking people realise you'll solve this problem in part by getting greater cooperation from Muslims and Muslim nations. Mixing in the name of their religion with criminality is counterproductive and antagonistic to the hundreds of millions who might otherwise be inclined to help you.

...these are angry young men. Period. Islam is just what they've latched onto to justify violence. Others use patriotism.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 101):
that the Christian prophet was a fictional human being

no educated person belives Jesus is a "fictional human being." Google "historicity of Jesus". Learn.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 103):

4,735 pedestrians were stuck and killed by careless drivers in the USA last year. People minding their own business, killed by selfish car drivers.s

Accidents v. deliberate acts of gun owners...and ALL gun crimes are committed by gun owners.

Learn the difference and think about how accidents we can't easily control are quite a bit different than controlling the deliberate acts of the gun owning minority.





Pu.





* http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 126):
Wow, there's an old favourite! "I am correct, everyone else is stupid, get lost!" Colour me impressed.

You're making the assumption we're the same Lutheran Church when we are not and the terms used by the Lutheran Church in the States (ELCA, LCMS and WELS) is appropriate. When I say misused by others, I mean as I stated before, those who lump Evangelicals into one giant group. The correct term for what was being discussed is "Fundamentalist" not "Evangelical".

[Edited 2016-06-12 14:56:03]
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:59 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 128):
When I say misused by others, I mean as I stated before, those who lump Evangelicals into one giant group.

Oh, so now you don't like when that happens? You guys spend all day doing the same thing to gays, Muslims, minorities, pretty much anyone else you feel like running down, but when you get some of that back, now it's a problem, is it?

That's hilarious. Do another!
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:04 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 128):
You're making the assumption

Nope. It'd be quite a feat for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to be a Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts, i.e. a very distinct peculiarity in the spectrum of German organisations that the German government recognises.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 128):
When I say misused by others

One word = several meanings in different contexts. You may strongly disagree with the way certain fundamentalists use the term "evangelical", but that doesn't mean it cannot have that meaning.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:05 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 68):
Or at least "thoughts".

Whereas "prayers" fix everything?

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 85):
I, in no way, accept events like this as part of reality. Something must be done but what needs doing could be discussed in another thread rather than on here.

So what do you want, a whole thread of "thoughts 'n' Prayers"?

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 111):
Apparently Christians are fair game.

Why should they be less fair game than any other group?
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 93):
Quoting flymia (Reply 87):
But automatic assault rifles?

Because the NRA wants to make sure no terrorist is left behind without a rifle, especially ones on an FBI watch list with a history of domestic abuse
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 98):
Apparently FBI interviewed him twice but it was inconclusive.

This guy had a so-called "G" license which means he passed an extensive background check, and has to be renewed annually. Now it turns out that the FBI had him on the terrorism radar once or twice over the past 3 years, but his license was never called into question. If this turns out to be true, the FBI really dropped the ball.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 100):
I'd gladly take away the freedom to own guns if that ensured the freedom of normal people to enjoy their lives without the fear (or the actuality) of being blown away by some gun toting nut!!!

The anti-gun nuts have no ammo here. They want nobody to have guns except for police and such people as licensed security personnel, and this guy was exactly that.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 119):
He's an American citizen, born in the United States. He pledged his allegiance to ISIS. He killed/maimed scores. You stated that ISIS has no laws like the US and that that's the difference between them and Evangelical Christians - the US laws. Newsflash: He was a US citizen. What laws allowed him to do what he did in the name of his religion that somehow magically prevent all those evangelical Christians from doing the same?

What laws? It's called Sharia. Look it up. You have so-called mainstream islamic clerics openly saying that gays deserve to be killed, including in the US. Christianity has no such laws (and don't try to bring up Leviticus - that is not an open-ended order to kill and has in any case been abrogated by the New Testament).
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:20 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 111):
Apparently Christians are fair game. Even moderators participate.

Welp when you have Presidential candidates at a conference calling for your extermination we can compare notes

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 123):
The bottom line is that you have carved out some special cases of people whom you think are worthy of being second class citizens and those whom are not.

Special cases being the way people are born. Being black is not a belief. There are black and gay people whether you believe in them or not.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 123):
You're a hypocrite an any world that has critical thinking and logic that is not tinted by hatred.

I think most people with a working synapse can tell the difference between being black and being a klansmen, or being gay and being a westboro member, or being Jewish and being a Nazi. You apparently think they're all beliefs, which is not the case no matter how hard you close your eyes and ignore reality.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 123):
I'm neither a racist nor a bigot but I have infinite disdain for those who would impose their beliefs on others and violate their rights,

You are exhibit A-Z of a racist, and as usual, racists can never see racism right in front of their face, but boy they have super fancy night vision goggles to find "reverse racism" everywhere they look. You think desegregation and Civil Rights are some huge affront to the freedom of people who do not believe in desegregation and civil rights. That's a might easy position to hold from your lily white male high horse. But it's also out of sync with the vast majority of the country and human decency.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 123):
Taking away someone's rights should be difficult and not be done lightly.

That'd be easier to take if it wasn't the same party trying to limit voters' rights everywhere. I guess rights are selective.

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 125):
Everything in life is a choice.

Always easy to say as a straight white mainstream male...

Quoting aloges (Reply 126):
Wow, there's an old favourite! "I am correct, everyone else is stupid, get lost!" Colour me impressed.

I think that's the whole point of religion?
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2262
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:30 pm

We must start mass deportations of Muslims from this country. It is clear their religion is not compatible with our beliefs or way of life.

Marc
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:35 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 134):
I think that's the whole point of religion?

Well spotted.   Hence the reference to old favourites... I might as well have said "ancient".

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 135):
We must start mass deportations of Muslims from this country. It is clear their religion is not compatible with our beliefs or way of life.

You've got that backwards. It's your beliefs that aren't compatible with democracy.
 
BMI727
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:41 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 134):
Special cases being the way people are born. Being black is not a belief. There are black and gay people whether you believe in them or not.

Where did I say that being black or gay is a belief?

Where beliefs come in is in how you think people of a certain group are treated, whether their being in that group is a choice or not. Being black is not a belief, but my thinking that not treating someone differently because they are black is a belief. That, of course, is a belief that not everyone holds and they have the right to believe other things as long as their actions on those beliefs don't violate anyone's rights.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 134):
You are exhibit A-Z of a racist

Let's see the evidence...

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 134):
You think desegregation and Civil Rights are some huge affront to the freedom of people who do not believe in desegregation and civil rights.

Either you are mistaken or you are intentionally obfuscating and ignoring important details to support your misguided point.

There two aspects to desegregation, one of which we got right and one of which we got wrong.

The one we got right was government segregation. The government has an absolute obligation to provide equal protection under the law and not treat citizens differently based on race, creed, color, etc. In other words, segregated schools or forcing blacks to the rear of the bus is unquestionably wrong and illegal.

The part we got wrong is private business. Nobody has a right to make a private business serve them. Not serving blacks or gays is bad business and unquestionably wrong, but should not be illegal, although the government should not be allowed to do business with discriminatory businesses unless no alternative exists. Regulating this violates the rights of the business owner to operate as they please.

As Aaron Sorkin said, living where there's freedom of speech means that sometimes you get offended. That extends to other freedoms as well. People are going to do things that you and I think are wrong and we're going to have to live with that because that's what freedom is. Not everyone is going to operate within our model of decency but taking away their rights is not the way to deal with it. Using government as a weapon to coerce everyone to fall in line with our beliefs is as great a sin as anything racists and homophobes can do.

And if you want to see some actual racism, try here:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 135):

We must start mass deportations of Muslims from this country. It is clear their religion is not compatible with our beliefs or way of life.
 
slider
Posts: 7751
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:41 pm

Homegrown Islamic terrorist.

Let's call things what they are, people.

And what will be rather interesting, and what I find fascinating, is the total dissonance of gays in the US who largely vote along Democrat/liberal lines. Those same Dems who refuse to acknowledge a war is ongoing for the West. Islam will hang, stone and--now mass shoot--gays and now it's happening HERE.

Time to choose.
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2262
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:52 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 137):
And if you want to see some actual racism, try here:

Muslims are a religion, not a race...the race would be Middle Easterners, but there are Middle Easterners that are Jewish and Christian as well.

Marc
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:58 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 129):
You guys

Just to be clear, who are "you guys"?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 131):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 68):
Or at least "thoughts".

Whereas "prayers" fix everything?

I can appreciate that prayer is not something that you understand the purpose of. I can't appreciate your disdain for it. Have you been harmed by someone praying in the past?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 119):
He's an American citizen, born in the United States. He pledged his allegiance to ISIS. He killed/maimed scores. You stated that ISIS has no laws like the US and that that's the difference between them and Evangelical Christians - the US laws. Newsflash: He was a US citizen. What laws allowed him to do what he did in the name of his religion that somehow magically prevent all those evangelical Christians from doing the same?

What laws? It's called Sharia. Look it up.

Oh brother. You missed the point of our dialogue entirely.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 134):
Being black is not a belief.

This is a sidenote, and one that really has nothing to do with the topic, but why is it that if someone is half-black and half-white (mixed race), they are "black"? Is it because they identify with being black, are labeled by the tone of their skin, or just believe that they are one and not the other? I've always wondered why Barack Obama is not the first half-white president, but maybe there was a half white-half native american president or something? Or maybe people are ashamed to be white? Or maybe people just want to be a part of a minority because it makes them feel more unique?

Yes, I admit that it might just be my poor understanding of racial labels.

-Dave
 
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johnboy
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:03 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 89):

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 73):
Yes. Hate-filled brush. I'm still trying to remember that this is Airliners.net and not ChristianHaters.com when I come here.

The Westboro Leftists are pretty loud around here.

Well to be fair there's an awful lot not to like.

Still looking for my tiny violin to play at this terrible, terrible outrage to the Christian religion.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14752
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:04 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 137):
And what will be rather interesting, and what I find fascinating, is the total dissonance of gays in the US who largely vote along Democrat/liberal lines. Those same Dems who refuse to acknowledge a war is ongoing for the West. Islam will hang, stone and--now mass shoot--gays and now it's happening HERE.

The GOP is perfectly happy to be buddies with Saudi Arabia.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16003
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:05 pm

Cadet, et al you've missed the memo long ago. GWB and now Obama don't use the 'radical Islamic terrorist' labels you obviously pine for because they've been expressly advised by intelligence officials NOT TO DO SO. Openly declaring anything of the sort gives terrorist groups massive validation far beyond the media coverage they seek. You think they are recruiting well now? Just wait till someone ignores that advice...we don't pay thousands to study and analyze these cultures for fun you know...
 
johns624
Posts: 4055
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:09 pm

This might have been his inspiration...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vev-OzHQy94
 
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OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4924
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:10 pm

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 124):
Everything in life is a choice.

Being black is not a choice. Being white is not a choice. Being a woman is not a choice. Being a man is not a choice. Being gay is not a choice.

Quoting pu (Reply 126):
no educated person belives Jesus is a "fictional human being." Google "historicity of Jesus". Learn.

Yeah I'm utterly confused on that one.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 128):
Oh, so now you don't like when that happens? You guys spend all day doing the same thing to gays, Muslims, minorities, pretty much anyone else you feel like running down, but when you get some of that back, now it's a problem, is it?

That's hilarious. Do another!

  

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 138):
the race would be Middle Easterners

Ummmmmm. "Middle Eastern" is not a race. There are over 1 billion Muslims in this world. Some are Arab, some are Asian, some are Black, some are White.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 134):
We must start mass deportations of Muslims from this country. It is clear their religion is not compatible with our beliefs or way of life.

There are no words...
 
johns624
Posts: 4055
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:16 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 144):
There are no words...

Oh, there's plenty of words, they'll just get you banned...
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2262
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:16 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 144):
Ummmmmm. "Middle Eastern" is not a race. There are over 1 billion Muslims in this world. Some are Arab, some are Asian, some are Black, some are White.
http://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

You're right. They're considered white. I'm also white, so I cannot be accused of being racist.

Marc
 
N867DA
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:23 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 139):
This is a sidenote, and one that really has nothing to do with the topic, but why is it that if someone is half-black and half-white (mixed race), they are "black"? Is it because they identify with being black, are labeled by the tone of their skin, or just believe that they are one and not the other?

In the American South there used to be a one drop rule where if one drop of someone's blood could be identified non-white he or she is ineligible to be considered a white person. I always thought it stemmed from there.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 138):
Muslims are a religion, not a race...the race would be Middle Easterners, but there are Middle Easterners that are Jewish and Christian as well.

Regardless of whether it's actually racism or not, it's not good policy. Nothing stops anyone from converting to Islam regardless of their national origin. This guy seemed to have lived pretty normally for many years until his life went to hell. Can anyone guarantee that Islam is the cause in this country of movie theater and school shootings? I think, as with many tragedies, there are multiple root causes and pinning all the blame on one factor is misleading. Someone's life goes to hell, they find solace in the absolute worst philosophy, begin rationalizing violent acts or believe the world is stacked against them, and then...lights out. It's not always as simply "ban Islam in America". There are many points in this chain that someone could have stepped in--this is what we need to get better at doing.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4330
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:26 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 134):

We must start mass deportations of Muslims from this country. It is clear their religion is not compatible with our beliefs or way of life.

Seems like you have a lot in common. Hating gays for one.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:28 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 147):
Can anyone guarantee that Islam is the cause in this country of movie theater and school shootings? I think, as with many tragedies, there are multiple root causes and pinning all the blame on one factor is misleading.

Wasn't it "violent video games" until a few years ago?
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:32 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 137):
Homegrown Islamic terrorist.

Let's call things what they are,



ok, howabout
RADICAL GUN-OWNER EXTREMIST


...which is a more accurate term in this case. Gun crimes are committed by a tiny subset of gun owners, just as terrorism is committed by a tiny subset of Muslims. There is no gun violence caused by non-gun-owners, and just as you insist on Muslims everywhere taking ownership of this crime by labeling it "Islamist", it is actually quite a bit more relevant for American gun owners to claim ownership of this act by one of their own.






Pu.
 
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OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4924
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:37 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 150):

Quite well said. I've long challenged those who demand that all Muslims take ownership of the acts of radical Muslims to do the same (whether it be gun owners, Christians, or whatever). I'm almost always met with resistance.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:46 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 147):
In the American South there used to be a one drop rule where if one drop of someone's blood could be identified non-white he or she is ineligible to be considered a white person. I always thought it stemmed from there.

It might have. In today's world, though, I would think it's more of a personal statement than any sort of external classification.

-Dave
 
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SOBHI51
Posts: 3950
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:53 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 134):
We must start mass deportations of Muslims from this country. It is clear their religion is not compatible with our beliefs or way of life.

Tell me Mark, what is the difference between what you said and ( Let's throw all the Jews in the sea)?
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22256
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:55 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 120):

Wrong again. Evangelicals follow the gospel, aka New Testament. You're talking about fundamentalists and anabaptists that place inappropriate emphasis on the Old Testament. AKA fire and brimstone nonsense.

Fine. I see little difference, but I'll call them "Fundamentalists" from now on. Happy?

http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/secu...blem-with-religious-moderates.aspx

Two points:
*When you say: "I'm a (Christian/Muslim/jew/Zoroastrian/whatever) but I don't follow this and that part of scripture," what you're really saying is that you're making up your religion as you go along. So you're just making a big community of religion that isn't really a religion.

*Almost every religious extremist has been plucked from the ranks of "religious moderates."
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2262
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:58 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 153):
Tell me Mark, what is the difference between what you said and ( Let's throw all the Jews in the sea)?

Jews don't go around committing terrorist attacks.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2892
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:02 am

I live 5 minutes from the shooting...

It was chaos here today...I woke up to multiple helicopters buzzing my house...As I had previous ties to law enforcement here in Orlando, I received a call at 5am from a fellow co-woker who is still an active Deputy with the Orange County Sheriffs Office. He described to me first hand the carnage he saw as he was a first responder to arrive and secure the area for SWAT awaiting them to arrive and take over. He was also one of the first to go in and re secure the area after SWAT shot that S.O.B. 100 times.. Yes he heard the cell phones going off on the victims all around the room..He was a Vietnam Vet and he said this was worse then anything he ever saw in Vietnam...
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:03 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 155):
Jews don't go around committing terrorist attacks.

Here we go.....

-Dave
 
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777Jet
Posts: 6987
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 155):
Jews don't go around committing terrorist attacks.

They just commit state endorsed mass murder on an almost daily basis.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14752
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:34 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 131):
The anti-gun nuts have no ammo here. They want nobody to have guns except for police and such people as licensed security personnel, and this guy was exactly that.

Would he have killed 50 and maimed as many with a handgun ?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2913
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:38 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 139):

Just to be clear, who are "you guys"?

I'm not going to BS you Dave,... Mostly ideological and social conservatives. I don't think being either makes one the sort who is a bigot or paints everyone with a broad brush, but in my experience, there's a lot of overlap in that particular ven diagram.

Having that been said, my remark is specifically geared toward guys like Cadet or 717200 or Dreadnougut who think all Muslims/minorities/queers etc are interchangeable. If that's you too, it is what it is. If not, great.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 145):
I'm also white, so I cannot be accused of being racist.

You're a racist.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 146):

Oh, there's plenty of words, they'll just get you banned...

Yup.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 157):

Here we go.....

Indeed. I'm amazed this post made it before the lockdown.

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