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aloges
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:41 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 155):
Jews don't go around committing terrorist attacks.

That must be why Yitzhak Rabin died of natural causes.  
 
bgm
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:41 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 139):
I can appreciate that prayer is not something that you understand the purpose of. I can't appreciate your disdain for it. Have you been harmed by someone praying in the past?

The issue is that people say they are praying with the association of somehow helping the victims.

Praying does nothing for the victims. It provides some psychological self-gratification to the person praying.

This is why people have disdain for it.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:43 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 158):

Are you really that naive? Jews do not commit mass murders. When is the last time that Jews dressed like Muslims and shot up a marketplace? When is the last time a Jew blew up a bus?

There have been countless attacks by Muslims ALL OVER THE WORLD, and they don't care who they kill...soldiers at a military base, people at a holiday party, or people just enjoying a Saturday night at a club.

Marc
 
Cadet985
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:47 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 160):

Please define race and racist. I used the US Census definition, but clearly you're saying they're incorrect.

Marc
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:55 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 164):

Please define race and racist. I used the US Census definition, but clearly you're saying they're incorrect.

You're a racist. I say that because I think you're a racist. That's good enough for me and most of us here.

You can write your congressman if you have some issue with that.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:58 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 128):
Oh, so now you don't like when that happens? You guys spend all day doing the same thing to gays, Muslims, minorities, pretty much anyone else you feel like running down, but when you get some of that back, now it's a problem, is it?

What are you even going on about? I don't sit around here mocking people. Go bark up some other tree with your nonsense.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 154):
Fine. I see little difference, but I'll call them "Fundamentalists" from now on. Happy?

Yes. Thank you.

[Edited 2016-06-12 18:01:06]
 
BestWestern
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:00 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 145):
I cannot be accused of being racist.

How about bigoted Muslim hater

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 134):
We must start mass deportations of Muslims from this country. It is clear their religion is not compatible with our beliefs or way of life.

Marc, don't you see the parallels of that and a certain Adolf Hitler? He believed Jews weren't compatible.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:05 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 163):
Are you really that naive?

If you want to see naive just stand in front of a mirror and take a look.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 163):
Jews do not commit mass murders.

So some other group has been mass murdering Palestinians???

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 163):
There have been countless attacks by Muslims ALL OVER THE WORLD, and they don't care who they kill...

Well the Jews do care who they kill; Palestinians!
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:05 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 166):

What are you even going on about? I don't sit around here mocking people

You've no problem assuming gays, minorities and Muslims are all some homogeneous grouping.

Sorry. Did I need to slow down for you?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:16 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 155):
Jews don't go around committing terrorist attacks.

There are barely more Jews on the planet than there are Pennsylvanians, so outside of the Middle East, it's not like there is a large community to draw nutsos from. And yet they're still blamed for everything under the sun.

Quoting slider (Reply 137):
And what will be rather interesting, and what I find fascinating, is the total dissonance of gays in the US who largely vote along Democrat/liberal lines. Those same Dems who refuse to acknowledge a war is ongoing for the West. Islam will hang, stone and--now mass shoot--gays and now it's happening HERE.

If the assailant was related to Ted Cruz or Mike Huckabee, or anyone on an endless list of 'conservative christians' it would not surprise me in the least. I'd still take the Democrats, who don't call us perverts/unsaved/worth killing/you name it, over the Republicans who just want an excuse to murder a bunch of people they don't like any. day. of. the. week. The odds of dying in a terrorist attack in America are lower than being killed by furniture. But the odds of having your rights limited or restricted by a (republican) politician are pretty much 1:1.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 136):
There two aspects to desegregation, one of which we got right and one of which we got wrong.

Yes you're all for business discriminating on the basis of skin color/sexual orientation/ethnicity/etc. That's racism, so there's your evidence. Maybe try a mirror? It's also the reason Trump isn't getting anywhere by excoriating a judge for being *shock* (not) Mexican. You need a reason to turn someone away, and that reason can't be something that that person can not change.

[Edited 2016-06-12 18:17:35]
 
BestWestern
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:18 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 168):
So some other group has been mass murdering Palestinians???

Israelis.

Who happen to be Jewish. Just like its not fair to tar all Muslims with the brush of a few, it's not fair to tar all Jews with the same brush.

Why is Anti Semitism so bad, yet anti Muslim is seemingly ok?
 
Cadet985
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:21 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 165):

Islam is not a race. Your thought on the definition is wrong. By your logic, I could say anything with blades is a propeller, and we both know that's incorrect.

Marc
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:23 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 172):

You prefer to be a bigot then? It's difference without distinction.

I think you hate Muslims and gays.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:23 am

Cadet,

Do you acknowledge that the intelligence professionals we pay to study and analyze terrorism know more than you?

They advise against mass expulsion and provocative use of labels by officials. End of story - you are not informed.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:25 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 173):


You prefer to be a bigot then? It's difference without distinction.

I think you hate Muslims and gays.

He does. He probably had a party today.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:29 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 175):

Actually, I've been following news reports all day, because even though I do not know anyone in Orlando, I do have friends in the area, and this was a terrorist attack, plain and simple. Just because I am against gay marriage does not mean I am anti-gay. At least 50 people went out to have a good time on a Saturday night, and that good time ended in tragedy for over 100 people, first responders, families, friends, and loved ones.

Marc
 
N867DA
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:29 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 152):
It might have. In today's world, though, I would think it's more of a personal statement than any sort of external classification.

It did, and there's nothing wrong with understanding we have many social norms from a different era. Social attitudes and values don't change overnight regardless of what the law says.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 136):
The part we got wrong is private business. Nobody has a right to make a private business serve them. Not serving blacks or gays is bad business and unquestionably wrong, but should not be illegal, although the government should not be allowed to do business with discriminatory businesses unless no alternative exists. Regulating this violates the rights of the business owner to operate as they please.

I'm glad that I don't have to search for businesses that cater to my specific racial or ethnic demographic, especially when traveling to parts where there is little diversity. I am very happy your ideology lost out when this country desegregated and I find the thought of implementing such policies--even if it would increase some esoteric concept of freedom--morally repugnant. Racial discrimination was considered so unquestionably wrong there is no space for it de jure or de facto. We got the de jure part right. The de facto part may never be reality, but it's a goal.

When events like this happen it's easy to be dismissive. I bet when you look across all his characteristics and beliefs each of us would at least nod our heads at at least some of them. People from all walks of life have done these types of crimes so it will be next to impossible to eradicate. But we can at least put a dent by making smarter choices than "ban Muslims!" Some Islamist just killed 50 people in Florida. Someone out there is thinking about shooting a school or theater or where ever because life pissed in his Wheaties. It's happened many times before and the sad part is we all know it will happen again. That's what really depresses me.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:33 am

From what I understand it took several hours to stop the gunman. It was also the case for the Bataclan attack and authorities have been criticized for not intervening as soon as possible. I think rules have now been changed, if it looks like an hostage situation where the hostage takers are there to kill and not anything else, the special units have to try and act right away.

What are your infos and thoughts about this ?
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:36 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 147):
Nothing stops anyone from converting to Islam regardless of their national origin.
Quoting N867DA (Reply 147):
"ban Islam in America"

To prove the point, the passing of Muhammad Ali would indicate one or two people liked him. I don't think anyone would support evicting such a person would they?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 154):
Two points:
*When you say: "I'm a (Christian/Muslim/jew/Zoroastrian/whatever) but I don't follow this and that part of scripture," what you're really saying is that you're making up your religion as you go along. So you're just making a big community of religion that isn't really a religion.

This. Too many Christians pick and choose what bits they want to believe.

Jesus said do not kill. There were no caveats or exceptions to this in his teachings or the new testament, even for self defense - turn the other cheek and all that (Jesus made it clear judgment would be in a coming day). I do not see how any true Christian could therefore kill anyone for any reason including things against his teaching. Yet thats what some do...... some will point to the old testament, but Jesus taught that Christianity superseded Judaism, so while it remained in the KGV and other bibles, it largely became symbolic.

Of course, AFAIK what some have issues with is not the teachings of Jesus, but the writings of Paul being included which is where a lot of the unpopular Christian doctrine comes from.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 56):
Agreed. This is about whether a club like this is ready to take down 1-2 gunmen at a moment's notice.

If not, they should be ready to.

Thats really not practical. How many clubs, stadiums, schools you name it there are to be protected at all times. Not to mention in a nightclub at 2am, chances are many of the patrons are under the influence of a few drinks, there would be mayhem. I guess there was...  

And whats to stop one these people trained to take out a gunman freaking out, turning rogue or having a clean record using their weapon against people? Seems thats exactly what happened here.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 98):
I'm no trump fan. But compared to the alternative right now, the continuation of an administration actively importing foreign nationals who would see the USA destroyed, I'll have to vote for him

Be careful what you wish for. Trump already said today that Obama should stand down as POTUS for not labeling this as Islamic terrorism. How can anyone really state that categorically even now, let alone at the time Obama gave his speech?! Now imagine if he was in the White House and the implications of jumping the gun like that.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:43 am

A niece of mine found out this afternoon that one of the victims was some she worked with at a bar/restaurant near Atlantic City, NJ several years ago. Her name has not been officially released yet so I won't disclose it here. She is quite upset by this. The website of the City of Orlando is handling the official posting the names of victims after being identified and family members are notified.

More is being found out about this terrorist.

His father thinks he should be the President of Afghanistan, did some TV program shown there.
He was married to a woman originally from New Jersey, they divorced in 2011. Apparently he was a cruel jerk to her.
He had been looked at by the FBI, but as either lazy or incompetent or lacking any Constitutionally sound cause to continue. Somehow they failed to prevent him from getting legal weapons in Florida, a state with weak gun laws.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:47 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 131):
The anti-gun nuts have no ammo here. They want nobody to have guns except for police and such people as licensed security personnel, and this guy was exactly that.

Yep. He was exactly the kind of person many people think should be in charge of all the guns. In another place, in another time, this scumbag would have merrily paraded around in a brown shirt.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 133):
Being black is not a belief.

Why not, many other biological features seem to be, these days...

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 133):
or being Jewish and being a Nazi. You apparently think they're all beliefs,

Actually, both those things are beliefs.

Quoting aloges (Reply 135):
You've got that backwards. It's your beliefs that aren't compatible with democracy.

In 1945 Germany banned national socialism, was that not a belief too? I am sure there were many people who liked nazis only because they were partial to autobahns, but after the damage it caused your country wisely decided to ban it. UEFA also will ban a football team for the actions of a minority of its supporters. So, just how much damage do we need to put up with before we can have a serious conversation?

Quoting slider (Reply 137):
Time to choose.

There is a very good expression that encapsulates the current situation perfectly: useful idiot. The people opening the door who will be the first on the hit list... these people existed during the Cold War, what makes you think they would not exist now?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 144):
Being a woman is not a choice. Being a man is not a choice.

It isn't in North Carolina, seems to be in many other places.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 167):
Marc, don't you see the parallels of that and a certain Adolf Hitler? He believed Jews weren't compatible.

Hitler's definition of a Jewish person was genetic, not religious. Plenty of atheists of Jewish ethnicity died in Auschwitz...
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:48 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 179):
Be careful what you wish for. Trump already said today that Obama should stand down as POTUS for not labeling this as Islamic terrorism. How can anyone really state that categorically even now, let alone at the time Obama gave his speech?! Now imagine if he was in the White House and the implications of jumping the gun like that.

Trump doesn't receive the NIE and daily CIA brief from the National Security Adviser. Presidential nominees receive very brief intelligence reports - it is up to them to ask detailed questions. Trump will ultimately get the same brief GWB and Obama have had: do not validate terrorist groups by officially declaring there is an Islamist enemy. This is basic social psychology and will send their recruiting into overdrive.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:49 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 169):
You've no problem assuming gays, minorities and Muslims are all some homogeneous grouping.

What are you even talking about? I believe you have me confused with someone else, or your just trolling.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 154):
*When you say: "I'm a (Christian/Muslim/jew/Zoroastrian/whatever) but I don't follow this and that part of scripture," what you're really saying is that you're making up your religion as you go along. So you're just making a big community of religion that isn't really a religion.

Your misunderstanding of scripture does not equate to me or anyone making anything up. It's simply your misunderstanding or simply abuse of it for personal gain. Scripture is pretty straight forward.

[Edited 2016-06-12 19:05:37]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:52 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 181):
Actually, both those things are beliefs.

Well, no. "Jewish" describes both a religious affiliation and an ethno-cultural bloodline. One is a belief, one is a chain of DNA linked by history, thanks.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 181):
There is a very good expression that encapsulates the current situation perfectly: useful idiot. The people opening the door who will be the first on the hit list... these people existed during the Cold War, what makes you think they would not exist now?

The advice against direct labeling is coming straight from our best terrorism analysts in HUMINT. Are you calling people who know infinitely more than you on the subject "useful idiots"? Incredible arrogance...
 
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Aesma
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:53 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 181):
In 1945 Germany banned national socialism, was that not a belief too? I am sure there were many people who liked nazis only because they were partial to autobahns, but after the damage it caused your country wisely decided to ban it. UEFA also will ban a football team for the actions of a minority of its supporters. So, just how much damage do we need to put up with before we can have a serious conversation?

If you have a serious conversation you will not ban Islam. At most you would do like France, and ban some manifestations of radical islam/salafism, but I doubt it, as for the USA this would be seen as extremely anti constitutional, and contrary to the basic principles the country was created for in the first place.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:53 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 180):

A niece of mine found out this afternoon that one of the victims was some she worked with at a bar/restaurant near Atlantic City, NJ several years ago. Her name has not been officially released yet so I won't disclose it here. She is quite upset by this. The website of the City of Orlando is handling the official posting the names of victims after being identified and family members are notified.

That sucks.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 180):

His father thinks he should be the President of Afghanistan, did some TV program shown there.
He was married to a woman originally from New Jersey, they divorced in 2011. Apparently he was a cruel jerk to her.
He had been looked at by the FBI, but as either lazy or incompetent or lacking any Constitutionally sound cause to continue. Somehow they failed to prevent him from getting legal weapons in Florida, a state with weak gun laws.

His father didn't think he was a terrorist either, so he's clearly disconnected.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:58 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 185):
If you have a serious conversation you will not ban Islam. At most you would do like France, and ban some manifestations of radical islam/salafism, but I doubt it, as for the USA this would be seen as extremely anti constitutional, and contrary to the basic principles the country was created for in the first place.


Broken misguided fundamentalism is a problem and for the life of me I don't understand why some feel the need to kill or maim anyone who doesn't agree with them.
 
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HGL
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:59 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 156):

Thank you for trying to bring the discussion back on topic.

It is good to see the outpouring of support for the victims with funding campaigns being set up to pay for the medical expenses. People have been willing to donate blood though many gays are disappointed that they may not donate unless they haven't had sex in the past twelve months.

Meanwhile, Muslim leaders have strongly condemned the attack, saying

Quote:
"We condemn this monstrous attack and offer our heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones of all those killed or injured. The Muslim community joins our fellow Americans in repudiating anyone or any group that would claim to justify or excuse such an appalling act of violence."
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-mu...demn-florida-shooting/3373317.html
 
BestWestern
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:02 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 181):
Hitler's definition of a Jewish person was genetic, not religious. Plenty of atheists of Jewish ethnicity died in Auschwitz...

So, Rounding up a religion and mass deportation is OK then?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 180):
He had been looked at by the FBI, but as either lazy or incompetent or lacking any Constitutionally sound cause to continue. Somehow they failed to prevent him from getting legal weapons in Florida, a state with weak gun laws.

People on the terror watch list are entitled to buy guns. Constitutional right. Bizarre.

However, this isn't a gun control issue. Is virtually impossible to take down all the nut job lone wolves. Barring deportation of vast swathes of 99.999% legal Muslim residents to also deport the Muslim nut jobs.

I know that's what bigots like Cadet want to do, but surely people see an issue with that.

After Colombine, nobody called for deportation of Christians.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:04 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 181):
Why not, many other biological features seem to be, these days...

Like?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 181):
Actually, both those things are beliefs.

Believe me I'd be more than happy to test throwing the religious baby out with the bath water, but somehow I don't think the right would be hot on the idea

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 181):
It isn't in North Carolina, seems to be in many other places.

It is reality, but as usual, the science is a light year ahead of the GOP's Noah's-cow-says-moo See 'n Say opreshun machine.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 179):
Too many Christians pick and choose what bits they want to believe.

   But following the bible 100% would mean thinking, and contradictions, and actual work, and none of that is really appealing to the christian right...

Quoting N867DA (Reply 177):
I'm glad that I don't have to search for businesses that cater to my specific racial or ethnic demographic, especially when traveling to parts where there is little diversity. I am very happy your ideology lost out when this country desegregated and I find the thought of implementing such policies--even if it would increase some esoteric concept of freedom--morally repugnant.

  
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:09 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 187):
Broken misguided fundamentalism is a problem

Yes it is, but there's no need to make it any bigger with grand official pronouncements that give nutjob groups what they are hoping for. Trump is already making them salivate with today's tweets.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:40 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 172):
It did, and there's nothing wrong with understanding we have many social norms from a different era. Social attitudes and values don't change overnight regardless of what the law says.

Actually I think it's very fascinating to see the lineage of things. I agree that the law cannot dictate what people think or believe, though I think people have, do, and will continue to try to find exceptions to that.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 173):

From what I understand it took several hours to stop the gunman. It was also the case for the Bataclan attack and authorities have been criticized for not intervening as soon as possible. I think rules have now been changed, if it looks like an hostage situation where the hostage takers are there to kill and not anything else, the special units have to try and act right away.

What are your infos and thoughts about this ?

I think it might be very similar to he way of thinking with hijackings and how that has somewhat changed since 9/11. However, when someone has a gun and is just shooting it is probably very hard to choose "fight" over "flight".

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 174):
This. Too many Christians pick and choose what bits they want to believe.

Believe or follow? I think there's a blurred distinction there.

Quoting HGL (Reply 183):
Meanwhile, Muslim leaders have strongly condemned the attack

Very quickly, in fact.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 184):
People on the terror watch list are entitled to buy guns. Constitutional right. Bizarre.

It's a "watch list", not a "committed a crime" list. I'm open to discussion on it being amended but I'd think it's a slippery slope when you start denying constitutional rights to people who have done nothing wrong. Not saying it doesn't already happen - we probably have slipped a lot over the years - but perhaps there is room for consensus on this point.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 184):
After Colombine, nobody called for deportation of Christians.

That was 17 years ago. Today, you might find quite a few takers on such a suggestion. Haven't you read this thread? Christians are evil.

-Dave
 
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777Jet
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:57 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 166):
Israelis.

Who happen to be Jewish. Just like its not fair to tar all Muslims with the brush of a few, it's not fair to tar all Jews with the same brush.

Obviously the majority of them support their government who is in turn responsible for the actions of their military.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 179):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 181):
Actually, both those things are beliefs.

Well, no. "Jewish" describes both a religious affiliation and an ethno-cultural bloodline. One is a belief, one is a chain of DNA linked by history, thanks.

FWIW my best male friend in the US, when asked what his background is by others, describes himself word-for-word as a "Black, Nazi, Jew" based upon his family tree. He is a well educated and highly intelligent African American guy with both Jewish and Nazi family roots.
 
wingman
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:18 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 187):

It's a "watch list", not a "committed a crime" list. I'm open to discussion on it being amended but I'd think it's a slippery slope when you start denying constitutional rights to people who have done nothing wrong. Not saying it doesn't already happen - we probably have slipped a lot over the years - but perhaps there is room for consensus on this point.

Dems proposed legislation around this with the support of the White House in the wake of San Bernardino. It was voted down by 53 of 54 GOP senators. Guess they got their puppet strings yanked hard by the NRA. And they will again. It's not Dems that are soft on terrorism and maniacal killers with their assault weapons, nothing could be further com the truth.
 
BMI727
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RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:33 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 165):
Yes you're all for business discriminating on the basis of skin color/sexual orientation/ethnicity/etc.

You're intentionally misunderstanding what I wrote to support you ill-founded theory.

A private business is just that: private and all of its economic transactions should be strictly voluntary. (Note that the same should apply to its customers) It should be legal for a private entity to not enter into an economic transaction for any reason they wish, any other policy is a blatant violation of the rights of said private entity.

That said, I think that barring blacks, gays, people with freckles, etc. from a business is both a poor business decision and just wrong, but I do not get to impose my view of right and wrong on a business I don't own. Discrimination of private businesses should be legal even though I think it is wrong.

There are plenty of other things that are already legal that I don't think people should do, like getting pass out drunk or driving a Chevy Malibu. Even people I think are breathing pieces of trash have rights and I'd be a hypocrite to not stand up for the.

I have the logical ability and intestinal fortitude to tolerate things and people I disagree with. That doesn't make me a racist, even if your small mind disagrees.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 172):
I am very happy your ideology lost out when this country desegregated and I find the thought of implementing such policies--even if it would increase some esoteric concept of freedom--morally repugnant.

Well that makes you a hypocrite. You're all for people having freedom as long as they are people that you like who use freedom in ways you agree with. By that standard pretty much every despot in the history of the world is very much pro-freedom too, so you'll have plenty of company.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 172):
When events like this happen it's easy to be dismissive.

I'm not being dismissive, but the absolute worst thing that can happen in the aftermath of this attack is using it as an excuse to erode liberty. Same after Paris, Brussels, etc.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 176):
In 1945 Germany banned national socialism, was that not a belief too?

Yes and Germans lack freedom. No German has freedom of speech, which should serve as a poignant reminder of how hard won freedoms can be taken away and never returned.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 180):
At most you would do like France, and ban some manifestations of radical islam/salafism, but I doubt it, as for the USA this would be seen as extremely anti constitutional, and contrary to the basic principles the country was created for in the first place.

   Such ideas should not even be granted serious debate and be relegated to the fringes where they belong.
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:43 am

I could cite ISIS and do something awful tomorrow. I'm agnostic as hell and a massive lefty but the right would love to call me an Islamic terrorist.

People who cite ISIS and do something terrible in most of the Western world are just unwilling to accept they're bad people doing bad things, and aren't willing to take responsibility for their own actions.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8385
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:28 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 186):
That was 17 years ago. Today, you might find quite a few takers on such a suggestion. Haven't you read this thread? Christians are evil.

My point is that a extremist who happens to be a Christian Isn't a Christian Extremist.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 187):
Obviously the majority of them support their government who is in turn responsible for the actions of their military.

but that doesn't make Jews bad - in the same way that it doesn't make Muslims bad.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 190):
I could cite ISIS and do something awful tomorrow. I'm agnostic as hell and a massive lefty but the right would love to call me an Islamic terrorist.

Precisely.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 188):
Dems proposed legislation around this

To be clear, around what? Prohibiting people on a watch list from acquiring weapons? I just want to be clear.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 189):
That said, I think that barring blacks, gays, people with freckles, etc. from a business is both a poor business decision and just wrong, but I do not get to impose my view of right and wrong on a business I don't own. Discrimination of private businesses should be legal even though I think it is wrong.

Could you please bring this full circle by describing the ultimate outcome that you see in that sort of environment? What would that look like?

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 190):

I could cite ISIS and do something awful tomorrow. I'm agnostic as hell and a massive lefty but the right would love to call me an Islamic terrorist.

Why would anyone cite ISIS if they weren't doing it for ISIS? I'm talking about people who actually do these mass casualty events. Are you saying that this guy - for example - could actually hate Islam so to make them look bad he did a mass murder but made sure to say "I did it for ISIS!"? Hey, anything is possible, but I think you might be trying really hard to make your point against the right.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 190):
People who cite ISIS and do something terrible in most of the Western world are just unwilling to accept they're bad people doing bad things, and aren't willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

It sounds like you aren't willing to let them take responsibility for actually sympathizing with ISIS. How in the world could you know what they are thinking inside their heads and their hearts?

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 191):
My point is that a extremist who happens to be a Christian Isn't a Christian Extremist.

I'd put it as "An extremist who claims to be a Christian isn't a Christian at all", but in their mind they are. If they claimed to be doing it in the name of Christ[ianity], i'd say that most people would call them "Christian Extremists" even though they don't really represent their faith.

I'd also put it as "An extremist who claims to be a Muslim isn't a Muslim at all", but in their mind they are. If they claimed to be doing it in the name of Islam, i'd say that most people would call them "Islamic Extremists" even though they don't really represent their faith.

-Dave
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22250
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:51 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 178):

Your misunderstanding of scripture does not equate to me or anyone making anything up. It's simply your misunderstanding or simply abuse of it for personal gain. Scripture is pretty straight forward.

So how do you like to treat your slaves, then?

Where was your god last night, BTW? Was he powerless to stop this atrocity, or was he just idly watching it happen?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 170):
Just because I am against gay marriage does not mean I am anti-gay.

Yeah, it does. The line of "anti-gay" is drawn when you think gay people are inherently deserving of less rights than you. Just because you don't want to line us up and shoot all of us doesn't absolve you of your anti-gay sentiment.
 
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777Jet
Posts: 6987
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:54 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
I was wondering whether it's some conservative Christian nutjob, or a Muslim radical one.

Given Trump's anti-Muslim rhetoric I was wondering if this mass murderer was some extreme left-wing nut-job... but the attack on a gay nightclub wouldn't fit that  
Quoting coolian2 (Reply 190):
I could cite ISIS and do something awful tomorrow. I'm agnostic as hell and a massive lefty but the right would love to call me an Islamic terrorist.

I bet you would love it if the right did that!

BTW - I'm also agnostic as hell but still a proud right winger  
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 192):
Why would anyone cite ISIS if they weren't doing it for ISIS? I'm talking about people who actually do these mass casualty events.

The nut job Man Haron Monis who did the Sydney Lindt Cafe Siege (not a mass casualty event but it could have been) requested an ISIS flag from police negotiators but he was clearly just a one man show with his own agenda.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6987
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:02 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 191):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 187):
Obviously the majority of them support their government who is in turn responsible for the actions of their military.

but that doesn't make Jews bad - in the same way that it doesn't make Muslims bad.

Not all of them, only the ones who support their government and therefore the mass murdering actions of their military.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 193):
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 170):
Just because I am against gay marriage does not mean I am anti-gay.

Yeah, it does. The line of "anti-gay" is drawn when you think gay people are inherently deserving of less rights than you.

Is somebody who supports same sex 'unions' but not same sex 'marriage' also anti-gay?

Is suggesting for gays to come up with their own terminology for same sex unions instead of demanding the term 'marriage' to be redefined just to please them anti-gay?

I'm just curious how much 'my way or the highway' you are.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:03 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 194):
The nut job Man Haron Monis who did the Sydney Lindt Cafe Siege (not a mass casualty event but it could have been) requested an ISIS flag from police negotiators but he was clearly just a one man show with his own agenda.

Well, in retrospect my comment was probably a bit of a broad whitewash of what is usually a very complex situation. However, I'm guessing that in most of these cases it will be fairly clear following an investigation if someone is truly a religious terrorist (believes they are part of a religious movement) vs an isolated loon. Who knows? It might not really matter if you are on the receiving end of the attack anyhow.

-Dave
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:04 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 195):
Is somebody who supports same sex 'unions' but not same sex 'marriage' also anti-gay?

Yes.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 195):
Is suggesting for gays to come up with their own terminology for same sex unions instead of demanding the term 'marriage' to be redefined just to please them anti-gay?

Yes.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 195):
I'm just curious how much 'my way or the highway' you are.

I think you're actually in his driveway.

-Dave
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13627
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:07 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 138):
Being a woman is not a choice. Being a man is not a choice.

All those are choices, the trans community will happily tell you that, you know what I meant, people have choices in how they live their lives, some make bad choices, like this guy.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:15 am

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 198):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 138):
Being a woman is not a choice. Being a man is not a choice.

All those are choices, the trans community will happily tell you that

Please don't say that. My luck, i'll be told that my choosing to be a straight white male is a hate crime.

-Dave
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:21 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 199):
straight white male

A group who have no right to a victim mentality in the western world.

Signed,
Straight white male
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:28 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 200):
A group who have no right to a victim mentality in the western world.

Ya, make sure you get that in there.

-Dave
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:58 am

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...s-he-beat-her-and-held-her-hostage

Excerpts:
Omar Mateen’s former wife says the man responsible for America’s deadliest ever mass shooting was physically abusive towards her, had mental health issues and was “obviously disturbed, deeply, and traumatised”.

Sitora Yusifiy was married to Mateen for four months in 2009 until her family was forced to “literally rescue me” after he kept her “hostage”, she said on Sunday in Colorado.

“In the beginning he was a normal being that cared about family, loved to joke, loved to have fun,” Yusifiy said of Mateen, whom she had met online.

“A few months after we were married I saw his instability, I saw his bipolar, and he would get mad out of nowhere, and that’s when I started worrying about my safety....

Mateen had a gun license, owned a silver pistol and “had a history with steroids”, she recalled.

Yusifiy said her former husband, who has been pictured in NYPD shirts, had wanted to be a police officer, had friends in the force and was working at a juvenile correctional facility to gain experience, she said.


So let's see: mentally unstable, history of abuse, steroids, power/authority complex, on an FBI watch list...but allowed to carry an AR-15. Sure, there aren't any problems with our gun laws   

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 100):
The difference is that the Christian prophet was a fictional human being that supposedly preached a message of peace and tolerance (regardless of what other religious texts say) while the Muslim prophet was a real life human and historical figure who led armies, conquered territory by force, raped and pillaged and exhorted his followers to do the same.

This, which is oversimplified in any case, would make absolutely zero difference to how people follow their religious texts. Pretty much any religion's texts can be interpreted metaphorically and positively or as incitements to exclusion, hate, and violence.

There is no simple "the difference is" even if you would like there to be so you can retreat to petty tribalism.

Quoting slider (Reply 131):
And what will be rather interesting, and what I find fascinating, is the total dissonance of gays in the US who largely vote along Democrat/liberal lines. Those same Dems who refuse to acknowledge a war is ongoing for the West. Islam will hang, stone and--now mass shoot--gays and now it's happening HERE.

Time to choose.

Again, for people who can use nuance in their thinking, one doesn't have to "choose" between hating one group of people and hating another. If you want to "choose," have fun as a sports fan picking a team. Don't let that kind of thinking hamper your ability to realize that people, identities, and psychology are actually rather complex. Bigotry is not going to solve these problems, that's for sure.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 175):
In another place, in another time, this scumbag would have merrily paraded around in a brown shirt.

Wow, for once we agree. And this undermines your whole simplistic Islam argument. This was a messed up individual with all the same traits as other mass killers in the US--his target may have been dictated by religion, but it would have been another group of people if he hated women (Santa Barbara) or the government (Oklahoma City) or Jews, or blacks, or Mexicans, or the kids who bullied him at school. By the way, if you think this is some kind of apologist babble for ISIS, you are mistaken. One can acknowledge the dangers those madmen cause (and they would be the same personality types who became devoted Nazis too...) without making this some kind of example of Islam taking over America.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:17 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 133):
I can't appreciate your disdain for it. Have you been harmed by someone praying in the past?

Yes, I have disdain for it. What did prayer ever fix? Have any of these victims been restored to life through the power of prayer? Prayer is a comfort blanket for the person praying. It changes nothing, never has, never will.

Instead of pointless praying for the victims of yet another mass shooting, try doing something to fix the problem.
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3950
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: Another USA Mass Shooting - Gays This Time!

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:39 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 100):
The difference is that the Christian prophet was a fictional human being that supposedly preached a message of peace and tolerance

I am sure Jesus was all that, but let's see what a pastor is saying

//www.addictinginfo.org/2016/06/12/christian-pastor-calls-orlando-massacre-good-news-because-50-fggots-died-video/
Anderson says that this is “good news” because “there’s 50 less pedophiles in the world.” The “Christian” pastor praised the shooter for eliminating his victims because they we “just disgusting homosexuals at a gay bar.”

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