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TheFlyingDisk
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Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:05 pm

Another senseless shooting, this time it's in the UK involving Labour MP Jo Cox.

And the perp is NOT a Muslim, apparently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... es-report/
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:20 pm

She have now died from her injuries: "Labour MP Jo Cox has died after being shot and stabbed "
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... CMP=twt_gu
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Tugger
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:23 pm

It appears to have been a Nationalist person that favored Britain exiting the EU. Shouted out something about "Britain First" during the attack.

Homemade gun too supposedly.

Very sad.

Tugg
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falstaff
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:54 pm

Tugger wrote:
Homemade gun too supposedly.



Interesting... I had not heard that. I had heard that it was a WWII era pistol. However that was just a comment on a news story so I have no idea if that is true or not.

If the firearm was indeed homemade I wonder if it was something made on a 3-D printer or something else. You can do some serious damage with a pipe, a couple of fire crackers and lead ball.

Also if this was a homemade firearm it must be one of the first used in a high profile murder. I can't recall hearing about it before. Maybe it has happened; I just don't remember it.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:00 pm

Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...
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JJJ
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:01 pm

falstaff wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Homemade gun too supposedly.



Interesting... I had not heard that. I had heard that it was a WWII era pistol. However that was just a comment on a news story so I have no idea if that is true or not.

If the firearm was indeed homemade I wonder if it was something made on a 3-D printer or something else. You can do some serious damage with a pipe, a couple of fire crackers and lead ball.

Also if this was a homemade firearm it must be one of the first used in a high profile murder. I can't recall hearing about it before. Maybe it has happened; I just don't remember it.


In the end it will probably be a blank pistol converted to shoot bullets rather than a gun made from scratch.
 
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:12 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...


As you well know know that the purpose of gun control is to reduce gun crime. It cannot be eliminated entirely, and you'll find not a single person who claims it can.

falstaff wrote:
Interesting... I had not heard that. I had heard that it was a WWII era pistol. However that was just a comment on a news story so I have no idea if that is true or not.


This all stems basically from one eyewitness who said it "did not look like a normal gun". Given that the eyewitness was a way away (and most likely knew nothing about guns) I'd take it with a pinch of salt.
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:15 pm

Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...

I have nothing but contempt for this statement. Just hateful
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:17 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...

Most people agree with "gun control". Even the NRA, most gun owners, and certainly most of my family members who own and hunt etc. and regularly use weapons.

Tugg
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:26 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...


You know full well that it's close to impossible to stop crime, but reduction is better than doing nothing.

Congratulations on being able to muster a cheap drop in a pissing contest.
 
starrymarkb
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:32 pm

For those that are not aware of the UK rules.

Handguns and (Semi) Automatic Weapons are banned.

However rifles, shotguns etc are legal to own. However you must be licensed and police checks will be carried out before one is granted, you must also have a legitimate purpose. ie Hunting/Sports Shooting. Self Defence is not considered a valid reason to own a gun.
 
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falstaff
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:43 pm

starrymarkb wrote:
Handguns and (Semi) Automatic Weapons are banned.


I often wondered how many WWII era rifles and pistols are floating around in Europe. If you kept an old gun inside and well oiled they will last virtually forever. I have a number of European firearms from WWI and WWII and they are all functional. I was still buying WWII surplus ammunition up until about 10 years ago and all of it fired properly. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to believe somebody's father/grandfather held on to a gun and its been sitting in a house for 70 years.

Not so much of a UK issue, but when the Communist Bloc fell a lot of firearms disappeared.
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NoTime
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 pm

So, initial speculation seems to be that this was due to the upcoming Brexit vote...? I can't say that I have been following every twist and turn in the politics, but wasn't the "LEAVE" vote actually winning in a recent poll? Or at lest pulling even with the "STAY" voters?

Granted, you can't ascribe any real rationale to a murderer, but what is the motivation to kill someone if your side seems to be already gaining momentum? Sheer hatred?
 
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:06 pm

NoTime wrote:
So, initial speculation seems to be that this was due to the upcoming Brexit vote...? I can't say that I have been following every twist and turn in the politics, but wasn't the "LEAVE" vote actually winning in a recent poll? Or at lest pulling even with the "STAY" voters?

Granted, you can't ascribe any real rationale to a murderer, but what is the motivation to kill someone if your side seems to be already gaining momentum? Sheer hatred?

The "leave" vote appears to have greater support than the "stay" vote according to recent polls. But those polls may not be accurate as the betting houses are still showing the "stay" vote as more likely to win. And interestingly they are often more accurate as they have actual money on the line and do a lot of actual research. The general consensus is that many (most?) in the UK would love to leave, to be fully independent, but when it comes down to it they are very practical and understand the benefits of being in the EU and are averse to the risks that will come with leaving.

Of course only the actual vote tally will tell. But this killing really throws cold water on the "leave" group.
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GDB
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:03 pm

Terrible and tragic, by all accounts Jo Cox MP was well respected as well as being a wife and mother to two small children.
MP's often rightly get a hard time however it's also a fact that a lot of their time is spent on local issues and having a 'Surgery' in your seat is one of them, where anyone can come to speak to their MP about any issue. As many MP's can tell you, these include sad, tragic cases that often cannot be helped, people with mental issues and with that, comes potential danger.

Some years ago a MP was badly injured by a nutcase with a sword.
This death today however is the first murder of a British MP since 1990, when Ian Gow was murdered by the IRA with a car bomb.

"Britain First" are essentially a spin off from the whole EDL/BNP cesspool, recently the've been holding marches usually in areas of high immigration and/or a settled community with a large Muslim population, they've caused trouble but frankly I thought most of them would have been in France causing trouble at the football (though anyone with a record of football violence would struggle to get to travel there being on a watch list or just plain banned from events like that).
For all the trouble though, their marches have often been not well attended, descending into farce as much as anything.
Maybe this nut wanted to up the ante?

Diamond Flyer, might be worth having the first clue about what you are talking about before commenting, this woman did not die by AR-15, or Glock but from knife and gun wounds.
There have even been on occasion nightclub shootings here too, usually with some converted replica/blank firing piece as much a danger to the user probably, not 30 rounds in almost as many seconds going at 900 metres a second.

I doubt a Britain First bonehead would have the nous to do a 3D print job, home-made, converted or hidden since WW2 most likely.
But still tragic but thankfully, a rare event, not just for MP's either.
(Last UK mass shooting, 10 in a rural area with a .22 bolt action rifle and a shotgun was in 2010, first since 1996).
 
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:07 pm

Are we sure it's to do with the EU thing? Labour are well known for pandering to Muslims, so maybe it's someone with a beef about that.
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falstaff
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:28 pm

winterlight wrote:
Labour are well known for pandering to Muslims, so maybe it's someone with a beef about that.


I could see that. The Syrian Refugee thing as a lot of people on all sides worked up.

GDB wrote:
converted or hidden since WW2 most likely.


Just this afternoon there was a report on WJR radio (Detroit) that a demolition crew found four WWI German artillery shells hidden in a wall, in a building they were tearing down, in Detroit. I'd bet they were live too (or used to be). If you had an inert shell you wouldn't need to hide it in a wall. I am sure whoever put those in the wall is long dead. Just goes to show that you never know what people might hide.
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coolian2
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:45 pm

This is horrible. I'm so sorry for her family and friends. Additionally her supporters.

Why is it the right wing are willing to murder people for their causes? The left may do some property damage, but it feels like we value life more. Nobody should die for what they believe in and yet there's one side of the spectrum that thinks it's okay.
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coolian2
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:46 pm

winterlight wrote:
Are we sure it's to do with the EU thing? Labour are well known for pandering to Muslims, so maybe it's someone with a beef about that.

Talk about irony.

Refugee murders in the UK=None
Idiots=One
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:49 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...

Yeah. There was a shooting in my neighborhood last week.

Nobody died. If it was the US, there would have been multiple deaths.

Your post is so contemptible I don't think I ever want to deal with you again. As such, I will not.
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:40 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...

Look who pops up from behind the corpse of a mother of two to suggest that another death by firearm is something to rejoice about.
According to witnesses, Mrs Cox’s killer used either an antique or a home-made gun which he calmly reloaded between shots.

If the UK's gun policies were determined by the NRA like the US's are, he would have had an assault rifle and as many large clips as he could carry.
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:44 pm

The suspect has been named as a local 52 year old, who kept to himself, lived alone, had prior contact with mental health services and was on the mailing list of some neo-Nazi circulation.
A mobile phone pic by a witness shows two it seems unarmed police officers pinning him to the ground, he may have been tasered though no reports of that though bear in mind he had a knife as well as a possibly now empty/inoperative firearm, or he just gave up to the first officers on the scene?
 
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:38 am

Witnesses reported hearing the assassin shout "Britain First" repeatedly during the attack and naturally the police have followed up on a link between his ideas and the killing. Yet speculation in the media immediately turned to his being a "loner" who has "mental issues". You would be almost guaranteed that if he had been a Muslim the emphasis in all the speculation would have been on his religious beliefs.

Britain First has distanced itself, claiming that it was not involved and stating, “This is absolutely not the kind of behaviour we would condone.” Rightly so, yet creating a climate of fear and hatred can be expected to produce a violent reaction.

I don't know if the murderer was following events in Australia but here one politician published a campaign video in which he shoots members of opposing parties. No doubt it was meant to be humorous but coming the day after the Orlando shootings, many didn't see it that way and regarded it in poor taste.
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne ... dead-video
Last edited by HGL on Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:35 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...

In addition to all the killing and mayhem, seems like guns make you stupid, and terrible at basic...I mean BASIC...statistics.
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coolian2
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:42 am

HGL wrote:
Witnesses reported hearing the assassin shout "Britain First" repeatedly during the attack and naturally the police have followed up on a link between his ideas and the killing. Yet speculation in the media immediately turned to his being a "loner" who has "mental issues". You would be almost guaranteed that if he had been a Muslim the emphasis in all the speculation would have been on his religious believes.

Britain First has distanced itself, claiming that it was not involved and stating, “This is absolutely not the kind of behaviour we would condone.” Rightly so, yet creating a climate of fear and hatred can be expected to produce a violent reaction.

I don't know if the murderer was following events in Australia but here one politician published a campaign video in which he shoots members of opposing parties. No doubt it was meant to be humorous but coming the day after the Orlando shootings, many didn't see it that way and regarded it in poor taste.
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne ... dead-video


One psycho claims ISIS, it's definitely Islam's fault.

One psycho claims Britain First, he's just a psycho.

DOES THIS WORLD HEAR ITSELF?
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:56 am

coolian2 wrote:
One psycho claims ISIS, it's definitely Islam's fault.

One psycho claims Britain First, he's just a psycho.

DOES THIS WORLD HEAR ITSELF?

That's what I am always wondering, but your comparison is a bit off. The Orlando 'psycho' claimed allegiance to ISIS, Hizbullah, Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, you name it, all contradictory and mortal enemies of each other. If the British psycho claimed allegiance to Britain First AND whatever the opposite is--UK + EU = 4EVR--then you'd have something! :lol:
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starrymarkb
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:30 am

HGL wrote:

Britain First has distanced itself, claiming that it was not involved and stating, “This is absolutely not the kind of behaviour we would condone.” Rightly so, yet creating a climate of fear and hatred can be expected to produce a violent reaction.


A look at the comments on a Britain First FB post usually contains a large number of commentards wanting to beat up/kill muslims/gays/lefties. I suspect someone from the BF admins is having to go through and prune these out quickly before they get implicated further.
 
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:49 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...

What a petty, petty comment. But at the same time expected. Literally the only people in the world who claim that gun control is supposed to completely eliminate every form of gun crime rather than significantly reduce it are the gun crowd themselves, who use it as a strawman argument. The way you're doing now. As expected.

But to answer your question (you know, the one you don't actually want to hear the answer to): the British gun homicide rate is about one FIFTIETH of that of the US. That's PER CAPITA, in case you were wondering. So tell me, DiamondFlyer: is gun control working?
 
JJJ
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:26 am

Scorpio wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Clearly gun control works? I mean, nobody was shot to death in a country with significant gun control in place...

What a petty, petty comment. But at the same time expected. Literally the only people in the world who claim that gun control is supposed to completely eliminate every form of gun crime rather than significantly reduce it are the gun crowd themselves, who use it as a strawman argument.


He also equates any form of gun control with an outright ban and confiscation.
 
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:06 am

JJJ wrote:
He also equates any form of gun control with an outright ban and confiscation.


Like many pro-gun advocates, his level of paranoia is astonishing. Cold, dead hands and all that. :roll:
Last edited by scbriml on Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pvjin
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:32 am

coolian2 wrote:
HGL wrote:
Witnesses reported hearing the assassin shout "Britain First" repeatedly during the attack and naturally the police have followed up on a link between his ideas and the killing. Yet speculation in the media immediately turned to his being a "loner" who has "mental issues". You would be almost guaranteed that if he had been a Muslim the emphasis in all the speculation would have been on his religious believes.

Britain First has distanced itself, claiming that it was not involved and stating, “This is absolutely not the kind of behaviour we would condone.” Rightly so, yet creating a climate of fear and hatred can be expected to produce a violent reaction.

I don't know if the murderer was following events in Australia but here one politician published a campaign video in which he shoots members of opposing parties. No doubt it was meant to be humorous but coming the day after the Orlando shootings, many didn't see it that way and regarded it in poor taste.
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne ... dead-video


One psycho claims ISIS, it's definitely Islam's fault.

One psycho claims Britain First, he's just a psycho.

DOES THIS WORLD HEAR ITSELF?


The latest Muslim psycho killed 50 people while this guy killed one politician. Both are obviously very wrong, but the first one is much much worse in terms of human lives lost.

And that's what tends to be the difference between Islamic terrorism and other terrorism. Apart from rare cases like Breivik it seems that it's just the Muslim terrorists who think that a mass murder of random people is an okay thing to do to justify their cause. And even Breivik had some logic in his actions when he targeted youth of a political party he hated, as opposed to attacking a random theater or whatever and killing everybody inside like Muslim terrorists in Paris.

This exactly is what makes me worry about Islamic terrorism specifically. I'm not in danger if some right wing nutjob decides to kill one of our politicians, but I might be in danger if some Islamist nutjob decides to massacre random people in some public place.
Last edited by pvjin on Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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winterlight
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:34 am

Eye witness reports suggest he never shouted anything before the attack. Locals also claim he was not connected with Britain First. Seems the desperate pro-EU propagandists have shaped the narrative to fit their agenda.

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=55017
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coolian2
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:35 am

pvjin wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
HGL wrote:
Witnesses reported hearing the assassin shout "Britain First" repeatedly during the attack and naturally the police have followed up on a link between his ideas and the killing. Yet speculation in the media immediately turned to his being a "loner" who has "mental issues". You would be almost guaranteed that if he had been a Muslim the emphasis in all the speculation would have been on his religious believes.

Britain First has distanced itself, claiming that it was not involved and stating, “This is absolutely not the kind of behaviour we would condone.” Rightly so, yet creating a climate of fear and hatred can be expected to produce a violent reaction.

I don't know if the murderer was following events in Australia but here one politician published a campaign video in which he shoots members of opposing parties. No doubt it was meant to be humorous but coming the day after the Orlando shootings, many didn't see it that way and regarded it in poor taste.
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne ... dead-video


One psycho claims ISIS, it's definitely Islam's fault.

One psycho claims Britain First, he's just a psycho.

DOES THIS WORLD HEAR ITSELF?


The latest Muslim psycho killed 50 people while this guy killed one politician. Both are obviously very wrong, but the first one is much much worse in terms of human lives lost.

And that's what tends to be the difference between Islamic terrorism and other terrorism. Apart from rare cases like Breivik it seems that it's just the Muslim terrorists who think that a mass murder of random people is an okay thing to do to justify their cause. And even Breivik had some logic in his actions when he targeted youth of a political party he hated, as opposed to attacking a random theater or whatever and killing everybody inside like Muslim terrorists in Paris.


Oh get off.
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pvjin
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:37 am

"Oh get off."

What? He had clear logic. He hated social democrats for their policies, so he thought massacring the social democrat youth, possible future politicians, would be a good idea. I can see a clear logic there, even if in the end his act just gave more sympathy to the party.

Next time try coming back with an actual argument.
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JJJ
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:00 pm

winterlight wrote:
Eye witness reports suggest he never shouted anything before the attack. Locals also claim he was not connected with Britain First. Seems the desperate pro-EU propagandists have shaped the narrative to fit their agenda.

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=55017


Jo Cox suspect bought gun guides from US neo-Nazis, group claims

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... oup-claims

Suspected killer of British lawmaker had ties to neo-Nazi group, watchdog says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/su ... story.html

"In all, Mair sent $620 to the group’s publishing imprint for titles including “Incendiaries,” “Chemistry of Powder and Explosives” and “Improvised Munitions Handbook” and “Ich Kampfe,” published by the World War II-era Nazi party, the law center said.

The Daily Telegraph also reported that Mair had subscribed to a South African magazine published by the White Rhino Club, a pro-apartheid group."
 
coolian2
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:08 pm

pvjin wrote:
"Oh get off."

What? He had clear logic. He hated social democrats for their policies, so he thought massacring the social democrat youth, possible future politicians, would be a good idea. I can see a clear logic there, even if in the end his act just gave more sympathy to the party.

Next time try coming back with an actual argument.


I'm actually happy to double down on my original reply. You're talking absolute nonsense. It's scary you think that way.
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scbriml
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:20 pm

winterlight wrote:
Eye witness reports suggest he never shouted anything before the attack. Locals also claim he was not connected with Britain First. Seems the desperate pro-EU propagandists have shaped the narrative to fit their agenda.

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=55017


Yeah, EVERYTHING is a conspiracy to you. :roll:
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HGL
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:23 pm

pvjin wrote:
The latest Muslim psycho killed 50 people while this guy killed one politician. Both are obviously very wrong, but the first one is much much worse in terms of human lives lost.

Sure, more people died in Orlando and in some respects this is like the assassination attempt on US senator Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona. However, we do not know how many people would have been killed if this assassin had been better armed.
pvjin wrote:
... it seems that it's just the Muslim terrorists who think that a mass murder of random people is an okay thing to do to justify their cause. And even Breivik had some logic in his actions when he targeted youth of a political party he hated...
Well one could argue exactly the same for the Orlando murders. The guy obviously hated gays and deliberately attacked a gay venue, so clearly he "had some logic in his actions", although many would wish to deny it .

It also appears that this man in the UK also "had some logic": he believed the rhetoric put out by Britain First, subscribed to white supremacist organisations and attacked a politician who he possibly viewed as betraying Britain. Again people wish to deny it by pointing out he was a "loner" and had "mental issues".

While you may not feel so concerned because a politician was shot and not a random theatre-goer, the choice of target was deliberate and was an attack on democracy. Like them or not, politicians are the elected representatives of voters. In that the attack is just as horrendous as other attacks on society, even if the scale of the attack is smaller.
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pvjin
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:28 pm

coolian2 wrote:
pvjin wrote:
"Oh get off."

What? He had clear logic. He hated social democrats for their policies, so he thought massacring the social democrat youth, possible future politicians, would be a good idea. I can see a clear logic there, even if in the end his act just gave more sympathy to the party.

Next time try coming back with an actual argument.


I'm actually happy to double down on my original reply. You're talking absolute nonsense. It's scary you think that way.


How exactly is it nonsense? Are you saying that Breivik had no political motive? Perhaps you should do some research before writing nonsense, now you are just being a stereotypical radical leftist who is unable to have an intelligent conversation with anybody he disagrees with.

Well one could argue exactly the same for the Orlando murders. The guy obviously hated gays and deliberately attacked a gay venue, so clearly he "had some logic in his actions", although many would wish to deny it .

It also appears that this man in the UK also "had some logic": he believed the rhetoric put out by Britain First, subscribed to white supremacist organisations and attacked a politician who he possibly viewed as betraying Britain. Again people wish to deny it by pointing out he was a "loner" and had "mental issues".


I suppose so. I mean, here in Finland we've had some attacks that would appear to have no logical motive whatsoever, such as two school shootings and one guy who climbed on top of a roof after losing a fight, and shot totally random people with a hunting rifle. Though perhaps one could claim that hating humanity can be a logical motive to kill humans too... Depends from what we count as "logical". I suppose.
Last edited by pvjin on Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
coolian2
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:31 pm

pvjin wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
pvjin wrote:
"Oh get off."

What? He had clear logic. He hated social democrats for their policies, so he thought massacring the social democrat youth, possible future politicians, would be a good idea. I can see a clear logic there, even if in the end his act just gave more sympathy to the party.

Next time try coming back with an actual argument.


I'm actually happy to double down on my original reply. You're talking absolute nonsense. It's scary you think that way.


How exactly is it nonsense? Are you saying that Breivik had no political motive? Perhaps you should do some research before writing nonsense, now you are just being a stereotypical radical leftist who is unable to have an intelligent conversation with anybody he disagrees with.


Can someone else take this? I mean I can, but I don't feel like getting banned today.
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:35 pm

coolian2 wrote:
pvjin wrote:
coolian2 wrote:

I'm actually happy to double down on my original reply. You're talking absolute nonsense. It's scary you think that way.


How exactly is it nonsense? Are you saying that Breivik had no political motive? Perhaps you should do some research before writing nonsense, now you are just being a stereotypical radical leftist who is unable to have an intelligent conversation with anybody he disagrees with.


Can someone else take this? I mean I can, but I don't feel like getting banned today.


Yeah, this guy has serious anger management issues, a bit like this chick:

https://youtu.be/BY1H1rZL53I?t=101

Darn, I wish we too here in Finland had a huge ocean separating us from the most chaotic parts of the world, then I could be an idealistic leftist.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:46 pm

What I find interesting is gun nuts and ammosexuals believe with all their minds, hearts, and souls that Europe, England, Australia have no guns because the gub'mint took all the guns away. Yet, in countries where the gub'mint took all the guns away, people still own guns. I want the NRA minions to explain that. How can there be no guns but guns?
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scbriml
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:52 pm

seb146 wrote:
What I find interesting is gun nuts and ammosexuals believe with all their minds, hearts, and souls that Europe, England, Australia have no guns because the gub'mint took all the guns away. Yet, in countries where the gub'mint took all the guns away, people still own guns. I want the NRA minions to explain that. How can there be no guns but guns?


Yeah, I cry myself to sleep each night because my guns were taken away. Oh wait, like the vast majority of Brits, I never had a gun before they were banned. :roll:
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starrymarkb
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:08 am

Thomas Mair gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court.
*
(Source: BBC/Guardian/Mail)

Looks likely he was a right wing extremist.

Also a picture has surfaced allegedly showing him at a Britain First Rally
Image

*This court appearance was a formality. Magistrates have to refer serious crimes to a Crown Court for a full trial.
 
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n229nw
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:35 pm

coolian2 wrote:
pvjin wrote:
coolian2 wrote:

I'm actually happy to double down on my original reply. You're talking absolute nonsense. It's scary you think that way.


How exactly is it nonsense? Are you saying that Breivik had no political motive? Perhaps you should do some research before writing nonsense, now you are just being a stereotypical radical leftist who is unable to have an intelligent conversation with anybody he disagrees with.


Can someone else take this? I mean I can, but I don't feel like getting banned today.


I got it.

Pvjin:

1.) The reason the guy in the US killed more people is not because of his beliefs but because he was legally allowed to have an AR-15. The Sandy Hook killer also killed more people.

2.) The Orlando shooter targeted the people he did because he was gay and mentally unstable and a steroid user and hated himself and tried to go out in the most self-aggrandizing way possible. But let's take a more general answer to your question, for example, taking the Lee Rigby murderers (with their "logic" of killing a soldier):

If a Muslim says, "Oh yeah, that guy was a crazy extremist, but I understand why he was angry since the West has been contributing to people being slaughtered in country X for some time," you would say "why aren't all Muslims marching to stop this?!"

But if a right-winger such as Brevik goes crazy, you say "well, I understand his logic and why he was angry, since the feminists emasculated him and our government isn't enough like my idol Putin."

:D
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falstaff
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:02 pm

n229nw wrote:
The reason the guy in the US killed more people is not because of his beliefs but because he was legally allowed to have an AR-15


He happened to choose a AR-15, but he could have chosen the bomb route and killed just as many if not more people. The Bath, Michigan school bombing, in 1927, killed 44. Easy access to guns doesn't make anyone want to go kill people. A person has to have the desire to kill people. As I type this I have 41 firearms within eight feet of me, several of which are assault riffles. I have zero desire to kill anyone. Many of my friends also own a large number of firearms and don't go out and shoot people either. I do agree that easy access to guns can give a terrorist or crazy person an easy method to carry out an attack, but the problems still remains that they have the desire to do so. Prior to 1968 firearms were even easier to get in the US than they are now and if you go back to the 1930s you could even legally buy machine guns. All you needed was the money. The US has had easy access to gun for a LONG TIME and this has only become a problem recently. If you look at Sears catalogue from the early 1900s you'd be amazed at how many guns of various types you could order through the mail.
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coolian2
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:15 pm

n229nw wrote:
coolian2 wrote:

Can someone else take this? I mean I can, but I don't feel like getting banned today.


I got it.


Owe you a beer.
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pvjin
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:34 pm

n229nw wrote:
1.) The reason the guy in the US killed more people is not because of his beliefs but because he was legally allowed to have an AR-15. The Sandy Hook killer also killed more people.


If he wasn't legally allowed to have one he would have probably got one illegally, which certainly isn't that hard.

n229nw wrote:
If a Muslim says, "Oh yeah, that guy was a crazy extremist, but I understand why he was angry since the West has been contributing to people being slaughtered in country X for some time," you would say "why aren't all Muslims marching to stop this?!"


I would say that generally radical Muslims should feel happy about western actions in the Middle East. Only thanks to western support to all kinds of islamists and Saudi-Arabia their cause has gained so much popularity, without the west Islamic world would have much more secular dictators keeping their kind in check. ISIS should praise good old USA and the EU for advancing their cause immensely much.

n229nw wrote:
But if a right-winger such as Brevik goes crazy, you say "well, I understand his logic and why he was angry, since the feminists emasculated him and our government isn't enough like my idol Putin."


I don't think feminists had much to do with Breivik's frustrations, I think his motives had more to do with leftist immigration policy that he didn't like. It is possible though that Norway's ban on prostitution might have resulted in Breivik finding it more difficult to get laid, which could have contributed to his growing anger.

But still, you got me there. Muslim terrorists do admittedly have a certain logic in their actions, even if the target is the entire population of western world rather than some specific political group.
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Tugger
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:30 pm

falstaff" post#18948877][quote="n229nw wrote:
The reason the guy in the US killed more people is not because of his beliefs but because he was legally allowed to have an AR-15

He happened to choose a AR-15, but he could have chosen the bomb route and killed just as many if not more people. The Bath, Michigan school bombing, in 1927, killed 44. Easy access to guns doesn't make anyone want to go kill people. A person has to have the desire to kill people.

Except that bombs are illegal and have to be made by someone. While I can go down to the local gun store and buy a gun and sufficient ammo. Done.

Easy access certainly enable someone that has the desire to kill.

That is why strong controls on guns and purchases and ownership are a good thing. Not saying make it illegal, not saying to strip people rights. But controls and regulations are important and should be applied to gun ownership.

Again, my family hunts, and owns multiple guns etc. but they very much believe that to own a gun (in the family) you must learn it, respect it, and use it properly and regularly. And if you demonstrate a lack of these "qualifications" they really aren't interested in being around you with guns.

That to me is proper "gun control", not "I feel like i want a gun, let me go to the store an buy one. And you can't stop me, it's my right.".

But that is my opinion. Yours may vary. But I will work to support my "theory" in how I vote and what I support.

pvjin" post#18949101][quote="n229nw wrote:
1.) The reason the guy in the US killed more people is not because of his beliefs but because he was legally allowed to have an AR-15. The Sandy Hook killer also killed more people.


If he wasn't legally allowed to have one he would have probably got one illegally, which certainly isn't that hard.

It is actually not that easy to buy an "illegal AR-15", certainly doable but the "easier" guns to buy are handguns. You can get compact machine guns etc. but you either need a lot of money or be well tied into crime networks. They don't trust people and the weapons are prized and not used often (check news stories for how often "machine guns" are used in general crime. Mostly gang to gang).

Tugg
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Re: Another Case of Shooting - This Time In The UK

Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:46 am

n229nw wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
pvjin wrote:

How exactly is it nonsense? Are you saying that Breivik had no political motive? Perhaps you should do some research before writing nonsense, now you are just being a stereotypical radical leftist who is unable to have an intelligent conversation with anybody he disagrees with.


Can someone else take this? I mean I can, but I don't feel like getting banned today.


I got it.

Pvjin:

1.) The reason the guy in the US killed more people is not because of his beliefs but because he was legally allowed to have an AR-15. The Sandy Hook killer also killed more people.

2.) The Orlando shooter targeted the people he did because he was gay and mentally unstable and a steroid user and hated himself and tried to go out in the most self-aggrandizing way possible. But let's take a more general answer to your question, for example, taking the Lee Rigby murderers (with their "logic" of killing a soldier):

If a Muslim says, "Oh yeah, that guy was a crazy extremist, but I understand why he was angry since the West has been contributing to people being slaughtered in country X for some time," you would say "why aren't all Muslims marching to stop this?!"

But if a right-winger such as Brevik goes crazy, you say "well, I understand his logic and why he was angry, since the feminists emasculated him and our government isn't enough like my idol Putin."

:D


And if those two didn't have the rifles they would have found another way, such as homemade pressure cooker bombs, just like those two muslims in Boston.
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