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Olddog
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:41 pm

pu wrote:
Oh, you and Klaus do an admirable job insisting that there is no room for dissent in the EU. If a plethora of non-Germans join you, that would be more convincing.




Pu.


You may not like it but they are perfectly right. If you as an individual want to talk to a a British, none will stop you. But state relationships are another ballpark.
 
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seahawk
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:42 pm

Most countries will be more than happy to kick the Germans in the back. Everybody is tired of the German domination. I think more countries will leave before the talks with the UK are over, maybe they even form a new union with the UK, a union between equals that favours trade and commerce but respects the national identity of each country. Many progressive parties in Europe are already talking about it.
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:44 pm

pu wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
pu wrote:
Another EU critic that doesn't even understand how the EU works....


Oh, you and Klaus do an admirable job insisting that there is no room for dissent in the EU. If a plethora of non-Germans join you, that would be more convincing.


Don't worry. .. There is plenty of dissent, that is why the EU is so slow moving, because almost every desicion is almost as complicated as amending the US constitution.

There is also no reason to give the UK any preference treatment compared to other non-EU members like Switzerland or Norway or anyone else.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pu
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:50 pm

Olddog wrote:
pu wrote:
Yours may not like it but they are perfectly right. If you as an individual want to talk to a a British, none will stop you. But state relationships are another ballpark.


BULLSH*T
Each EU member conducts its own foreign policy.

The punishment-minded Germans are driving the UK straight across the Atlantic: great work ensuring the EU gets smaller and others grow in power. Losing the UK is equivalent to the US losing Texas or New York: it's a disaster and will throw us all into recession.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/opinions/ ... index.html


Pu.
 
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pu
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:55 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

There is also no reason to give the UK any preference treatment compared to other non-EU members like Switzerland or Norway or



Sure there is.

...for the same reasons you outline above that the US gets a better deal _- because of their size and importance, 10x the size of Norway and 6x the size of Switzerland.





Pu.
 
Olddog
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:56 pm

It 's not a disaster. UK blackmailed EU for years about that and now they have voted to do it, they broke their main weapon for that blackmail.
 
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pu
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:00 pm

Olddog wrote:
It 's not a disaster. UK blackmailed EU for years about that and now they have voted to do it, they broke their main weapon for that blackmail.


Nope.

Activating Article 50 is their weapon, not the referendum. They can do that tomorrow or a year from now or never.

In the meantime the UK can and still should be saved from leaving the EU.




Pu.
 
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Revelation
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:07 pm

The UKIP's 'cunning plan' to stop immigration by making the pound so worthless no one will come to work in the UK is going quite well.

It should also save places like the Canaries and Florida from getting swamped with drunken UK tourists.

Well done, UKIP!
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AAPilot
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:14 pm

The best part about all of this is the chaos the left is in. The labour party is destroying itself and Corbyn the next great left hope is a lame duck.
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:41 pm

pu wrote:
2. The TTIP contemplates free movement of goods, services, and funds. No people. The UK should get the same deal. Their products, protections, etc. are already in EU compliance anyway.


In adding to the other respondents: Not even the USA is getting that deal any more!

TTIP was already dead before arrival prior to Brexit due to massively rising popular opposition in several european countries – and that was even with the UK as its most ardent supporter still on board.

With the UK now gone it's dead as a doornail. An ex-agreement. Gone to the perennial annals of delusional would-be treaties.

That due to various delays it had no chance of getting through before the end of Obama's presidential term is an additional reason, especially combined with the chilling mood for it in the US public, reflected by Hilary increasingly inching away from this kind of treaties (even NAFTA she and her husband had propagated back in the day!) and the republicans not all that psyched about it in the first place.

Even if it was still alive, Brexit would substantially alter its foundations anyway, only further adding to the already substantial delays while the political weather keeps worsening for it, but I'm sure the TTIP officials on both sides will keep dragging its corpse around for a few more weeks yet.

CETA is also stumbling shortly before its goal – Juncker has just attempted to shove it between the goalposts in the overall Brexit chaos but even that may not be enough to save it.
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:45 pm

AAPilot wrote:
The best part about all of this is the chaos the left is in. The labour party is destroying itself and Corbyn the next great left hope is a lame duck.


I hope this helps you to forget that the conservatives have not just caused this historically epic blunder but in the process also proved to be completely clue- and planless while actually being in power.

A fraying opposition is somewhat unfortunate, but a disintegrating ruling party is an out-and-out disaster for the country!
 
AAPilot
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:57 pm

Brexit was a good thing not a blunder at all. The hope now is that the rest of the eu will collapse.
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:09 pm

AAPilot wrote:
Brexit was a good thing not a blunder at all.


Good luck at keeping that emotion preserved for the long run.

The hope now is that the rest of the eu will collapse.


The last time these kinds of sentiments were proposed and then acted on that fervently (including the rising harassment of minorities) was on the Continent, about 70-80 years earlier.

Maybe you should reconsider what all that rethoric about the brilliant future of Britain in the world on its own actually means, particularly regarding what you expect the world's reaction to such attitudes to be...

If the litany of lies you have been fed about the EU actually had any kind of truth to it, I might even join you in your sentiment. The problem is that the EU may be too complex for some people's comfort, but it's actually very much understandable and not even remotely similar to the bizarre caricature that's been shoved in your face by many british "news" outlets and by too many spineless british politicians who couldn't be happier about a ficticious scapegoat they can blame all their own failings on without ever being called out by the press.

"The EU" (which is actually not the monolithinc evil empire many seem to believe in) deserves all kinds of criticism, but under all that deluge of filth and lies the british europhobes are peddling they don't even come close to getting at it to any serious degree. It's devolved into a hysterical, shrieking fanaticism that's approaching comic-book levels of crudeness and delusion (actually, many comic books are far more nuanced and realistic nowadays).

Fanaticism can feel good for a while, but people tend to wake up from it after some time, even with the propaganda continuing. It's generally a good idea to get out of it before things get really serious, but Britain has already crashed through the first barrier there.
 
Olddog
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:17 pm

pu wrote:
BULLSH*T
Each EU member conducts its own foreign policy.



http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/opinions/ ... index.html


Pu.



Oh yes join the US and learn what power will be left to UK in a federal state :mrgreen:
 
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Lilienthal
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
Most countries will be more than happy to kick the Germans in the back. Everybody is tired of the German domination. I think more countries will leave before the talks with the UK are over, maybe they even form a new union with the UK...


pu wrote:
The punishment-minded Germans are driving the UK straight across the Atlantic: great work ensuring the EU gets smaller and others grow in power. Losing the UK is equivalent to the US losing Texas or New York: it's a disaster and will throw us all into recession.



I don't know in what kind of filter bubble you guys spent your time but it sure seems like a wild ride...

A destabilized EU is the worst thing that can happen right now, with multiple crisis inside and outside Europe. We can agree that Merkel's way of dealing with EU partners has to change. But i wish that a big country like Britain would not run away from the challenge, but embraced it and help in improving the EU.

Neither Germany nor any other country in the EU is driving the UK towards anything. About 17 Million Brits voted leave, and now the whole UK has to suffer the consequences. Nobody is punishing anyone, except the Brits themselves. Of course they can't leave the EU and expect to dictate terms in any way, or get any favorable treatment in comparison to other non-EU countries. Of course the homemade problems - that the Brexit campaign twisted into somehow being EU-related - will intensify due to deteriorating economic conditions.

And also, some people seem to vastly overestimate (hint: filter bubble) the amount of Europeans who would actually be in favor of leaving the EU. People are critical or angry over certain aspects and rightfully so. But that doesn't mean that an EU-exit is the preferred solution. And let's see whether the UK actually leaves. No one except the UKIP seems to really want that right now...
 
ikramerica
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:22 pm

seahawk wrote:
Most countries will be more than happy to kick the Germans in the back. Everybody is tired of the German domination. I think more countries will leave before the talks with the UK are over, maybe they even form a new union with the UK, a union between equals that favours trade and commerce but respects the national identity of each country. Many progressive parties in Europe are already talking about it.

Which is what the EU was supposed to be from the start and what the British signed up for. Like ALL governments, it continued to seize and consolidate power in order to grow, on the basis of "protecting consumers" and "fairness" and in the mean time, it became an unwieldy mess like the US federal government on steroids.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
lhrnue
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:24 pm

The future ... you read it here first:
Britain will leave the UK and not be a EU member.
British people will have full access to the EU. EU citizen will have full access to the UK.
Britain will have full access to the EU market. EU nations will have full access to the UK market.
Britain will sign up to all major EU regulations ... because drafting their own is nearly impossible and will cost too much time and money.
Britain will lose the Thatcher bonus and will pay the full contribution into the EU future. Britain will receive the same amount subventionen from the UK as today.
The Pound to Euro exchange rate will level at 1:1 after a couple of years.
There will be new common rules in the EU which will reduce benefits for a period of time when moving to another EU country (including Britain) without having a job.
 
ikramerica
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:26 pm

pu wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

There is also no reason to give the UK any preference treatment compared to other non-EU members like Switzerland or Norway or

Sure there is.

...for the same reasons you outline above that the US gets a better deal _- because of their size and importance, 10x the size of Norway and 6x the size of Switzerland.

Pu.

And because of the size of their military and contribution to NATO and European defense. Switzerland is neutral and Norway is of little significance to the EU in that regard other than protecting the North Sea from Russia via the Arctic passage/Norwegian Sea
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Pihero
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Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:37 pm

I haven't posted here these past days because Aesma and Klaus are doing far better than I ever could, and I share basically all they're saying.
What I'd like to say is that I don't give a damn about what would happen to that tiny island off our northwestern coast : whether they succeed economically or politically is not my concern any more : we are rid of the petty, selfish bickering and the systematic *obstacling* ( that's a Churchill's neologism reported in 1944 ) the construction of the EU as envisaged by its founders.
Because the EU is in crisis, due to the fact that it's systematically been re-oriented toward an ultra-liberal trading area, as far away ftom the countries' populations, as inhumane - as opposed to cold bureaucracy - as possible.
The thought hit a number of us on the continent when Cameron had been awarded the last of the opt outs they could manage in order to placate him and therefore giving a salary to the blatant blackmail he was pushing.
No more.
They are out, still can make themselves a nuisance, but their population had been promised too much, they'll ask for some accounts without us dirtying our hands and wow ! aren't they eager to be back in control !
Control that they never relinquished to the Union ; Let's see the special treatments they had been given :
- rebate on participation.
- the Euro
- The Schengen agreement
-all the Justice and Home office laws
- the fundamental Charter of Human rights (workers will be screwed as the last barricade to human rights is some of the social accords )
- all the agreements on freedom, security and Justice.

What is even funnier is that a *norway-type* of treaty will encompass most of these opt-outs (yes ! check it out !)... They won't be granted, and remember : there is no à-la-carte membership to the marché unique !

Maybe Obama could still save you ( of course if he ever left that palaver-tree in Kenya before the US elections !)

Best regards.

As a matter of fact, us Europhiles have taken back the control of our chosen destiny in the EU, thanks to the english /welsh voters.
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Aesma
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Re: EU referendum today

Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:55 pm

Accusing the EU of having caused the Brexit is disingenuous. You did it, own it.

Attacking Merkel on her austerity obsession and her supposed treatment of Greeks too, considering the UK wanted to dump Greece altogether !

Pushing for TTIP while talking about "protecting culture" is quite funny also, the US doesn't recognize protected designations of origin and wants to sell us parmesan that doesn't even look like the real thing, champagne made anywhere but in Champagne, etc.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seahawk
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:59 am

ikramerica wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Most countries will be more than happy to kick the Germans in the back. Everybody is tired of the German domination. I think more countries will leave before the talks with the UK are over, maybe they even form a new union with the UK, a union between equals that favours trade and commerce but respects the national identity of each country. Many progressive parties in Europe are already talking about it.

Which is what the EU was supposed to be from the start and what the British signed up for. Like ALL governments, it continued to seize and consolidate power in order to grow, on the basis of "protecting consumers" and "fairness" and in the mean time, it became an unwieldy mess like the US federal government on steroids.


The EU today is just perverted and it only serves the Germans in their conquest for domination in Europe and the French for their ideas of socialism. By design it does not cater for liberal and innovative ideas and it has a deep hate against any form of national interest. The Brits did the right thing and many will follow, imho the UK saved Europe again from German hegemony. The vote will be remembered as the day when the view stood up against the many and won.
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:58 am

ikramerica wrote:
Which is what the EU was supposed to be from the start and what the British signed up for. .


And another EU critic that doesn´t know much about the EU. The idea of European integration is the core idea on which the EU is founded, and precedes it. Hague Congress -> European Movement International -> EEC and so on.
The goal has always been, and idea famously promoted by Winston Churchill himself, to integrate the European nations so tightly that war becomes a practical impossibility to start a war. The common market is the tool to achieve that and Neofunctionalism is the model behind it.

That i can just go, move to France, fall in love and marry a daughter of the arch enemy and raise a bunch of Franco German kids, that supposedly won´t march happily to go and kill each other WW I style, without ever having to think about difficulties that may arise from different nationalities is key.

Integration while maintaining regional, not national, identity is what the EU is all about.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
TheSonntag
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:10 am

I am really appalled by the hatred towards Germany in this thread. And at the same time I am afraid of the Counter-reaction.

"England neidet Deutschland den Erfolg". This Quote was from the war speech of the german emperor in 1914.
I thought we would be farther.
 
tommy1808
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Re:

Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:13 am

Pihero wrote:
Because the EU is in crisis, due to the fact that it's systematically been re-oriented toward an ultra-liberal trading area, as far away ftom the countries' populations, as inhumane - as opposed to cold bureaucracy - as possible..


And t hat bureaucracy argument is blown completely out of proportion by EU "critics", that as we can see in this threat often don´t know much, if anything, about the EU itself. Hence Brits starting to wildly google "what is the EU" AFTER the Brexit.....

Brussels bureaucratic nightmare monster has less civil servants than a medium sized European city like Bremen, but is responsible for 100 times as many people. The Federal government of the US employs five times more people for just 2/3 of that in DC alone. Ok, they have to cover responsibility that the EU commission and parliament doesn´t have to care about, but as far as administrations go, the EU is one of the most efficient ones known to men, especially in its weight class. The EU is moving slow because all governments have to agree for almost everything, not because Eurocrats are scratching their balls....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Olddog
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:39 am

I was laughing out loud this morning watching BBC world trying to explain to fellow citizens what brexit options are, the same options that were explained here from the start and dismissed because, you know, UK is so important ! :lol:
 
JCTJennings
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:32 am

I think that we should refuse export licences for Airbus wings if the EU wants to get tough over trade. That would bring the whole Airbus project to a grinding halt. It would take years to set up a new wing manufacturing operation from scratch.
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:21 pm

JCTJennings wrote:
I think that we should refuse export licences for Airbus wings if the EU wants to get tough over trade. That would bring the whole Airbus project to a grinding halt. It would take years to set up a new wing manufacturing operation from scratch.


And the UK would be sued, lose, and pay....
And more importantly, no one would invest a single dime in a country that acts like that at all. Probably the fasted way to ruin a country for good.

best regards
Thomas Schulte
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
vrbarreto
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:29 pm

Oh what a surprise.. The 'Muppet in chief' doesn't want to run for Tory Leader.

The Sun with it's foreign owner will be very disappointed.. It's been constant Boris this. Boris that.

We are going to get either Gove, May or 'Britain's previously most hated politician' Hunt.

Can we apply for political asylum in any EU countries please? si vou plait?, Bitte, Prosim?
Last edited by vrbarreto on Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:30 pm

JCTJennings wrote:
I think that we should refuse export licences for Airbus wings if the EU wants to get tough over trade. That would bring the whole Airbus project to a grinding halt. It would take years to set up a new wing manufacturing operation from scratch.


You just do that.

It would instantly ruin Britain's worldwide reputation as a reliable trading partner (which was supposed to be one of its primary assets after Brexit) and would of course instantly put Britain into a trade war with the EU which has multiple times the leverage that Britain does.

It would of course put all the workers in the british Airbus-related factories out of a job.

It could also ruin Airbus and hand a worldwide monopoly on large commercial aircraft to Boeing.

As a side effect it could also ruin Rolls Royce as an aircraft engine manufacturer to have the threat of similarly sudden political interference hanging over it.

Now, if all that doesn't sound like an idea almost as brilliant as Brexit itself...!
 
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Revelation
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:40 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
That i can just go, move to France, fall in love and marry a daughter of the arch enemy and raise a bunch of Franco German kids, that supposedly won'�t march happily to go and kill each other WW I style, without ever having to think about difficulties that may arise from different nationalities is key.


I see your point, but to me it seems so simplistic. Enough of the desired effect can happen with regulated migration. The lack of such is what makes so many people feel that they've lost all their national sovereignty to the EU.

There's a big difference between trading with your neighbor versus having your neighbor move on to your property. Most would prefer the right to trade without the unfettered right to move in.

From what I've read the main reason the older English voted to leave was the fear of losing cultural identity. It seems to me that something could have been worked out. I guess I don't understand why the free movement of people is so important to some. It ends up with large part of the EU being abandoned and others being over burdened.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Pihero
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:41 pm

Pity that the only answer to the EU is more attacks : the hooligans' spirit which left France and the Euro 2016 by highjacking Airbus products !
Unfortunately, these wings belong to Airbus and certainly not to some factory in England.
Boy ! Your country will go very far with citizens like you ! ( Where, is of course, not guaranteed ! )
And the soap opera is going on : The bullies and the loudmouths seem to have lost all their bluster and no one wants to be leading the english-side of negociating the brexit !
So, the one most likely to do so would be, as a matter of fact, a WOMAN ! who was also in the "remain" camp !
If I were you, I'd be bawling for shame ! You've been - and still are being - screwed by those you put your confidence to lead you on.
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JCTJennings
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:44 pm

Klaus wrote:
JCTJennings wrote:
I think that we should refuse export licences for Airbus wings if the EU wants to get tough over trade. That would bring the whole Airbus project to a grinding halt. It would take years to set up a new wing manufacturing operation from scratch.


You just do that.

It would instantly ruin Britain's worldwide reputation as a reliable trading partner (which was supposed to be one of its primary assets after Brexit) and would of course instantly put Britain into a trade war with the EU which has multiple times the leverage that Britain does.

It would of course put all the workers in the british Airbus-related factories out of a job.

It could also ruin Airbus and hand a worldwide monopoly on large commercial aircraft to Boeing.

As a side effect it could also ruin Rolls Royce as an aircraft engine manufacturer to have the threat of similarly sudden political interference hanging over it.

Now, if all that doesn't sound like an idea almost as brilliant as Brexit itself...!


The serious point is how much of an EU imposed tariff would Airbus be prepared to pay for it's wings, or are they and they alone to be subject to free trade?
 
Olddog
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:50 pm

I heard Theresa May this morning, and if things go her way, UK will have to trade with EU according to WTO rules it seems. :shock:
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
That i can just go, move to France, fall in love and marry a daughter of the arch enemy and raise a bunch of Franco German kids, that supposedly won'�t march happily to go and kill each other WW I style, without ever having to think about difficulties that may arise from different nationalities is key.


I see your point, but to me it seems so simplistic. Enough of the desired effect can happen with regulated migration. The lack of such is what makes so many people feel that they've lost all their national sovereignty to the EU.

There's a big difference between trading with your neighbor versus having your neighbor move on to your property. Most would prefer the right to trade without the unfettered right to move in.

From what I've read the main reason the older English voted to leave was the fear of losing cultural identity. It seems to me that something could have been worked out. I guess I don't understand why the free movement of people is so important to some. It ends up with large part of the EU being abandoned and others being over burdened.


Yes there is a difference, and the EU is not about just trading, it's about living together, precisely.

Thousands upon thousands of Britons retiring in France and Spain, for example.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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sebolino
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:29 pm

JCTJennings wrote:
I think that we should refuse export licences for Airbus wings if the EU wants to get tough over trade. That would bring the whole Airbus project to a grinding halt. It would take years to set up a new wing manufacturing operation from scratch.


Brilliant !
It was not enough to put your economy out of the single market, now you want to kill you businesses ...
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
I see your point, but to me it seems so simplistic. Enough of the desired effect can happen with regulated migration. The lack of such is what makes so many people feel that they've lost all their national sovereignty to the EU.


Well, you still create an artificial barrier, and cross nation marriages are often still a bureaucratic nightmare. The concept of "Nation" in its classical form is the ghost of the past the concept of European Integration is the antidote, and some parties even advocate the Europe of Regions, aka no nation states anymore. Splendit, i wouldn´t mind no to be lumped in with Bavarian´s and asked if i like Haxe and drink my beer from those large mugs wherever i go on this planet....

There's a big difference between trading with your neighbor versus having your neighbor move on to your property. Most would prefer the right to trade without the unfettered right to move in.


That is where you are wrong, most want what we have, because every single line in every single treaty has been agreed to by every single EU government for half a century and people did re-elect those governments again and again and again.
Do you mind people from Nebraska moving in next door to you? Or from Alaska? No? See, that is how "we" want "us" to feel as well.

From what I've read the main reason the older English voted to leave was the fear of losing cultural identity. It seems to me that something could have been worked out.


Actually the EU is pretty much the biggest promoter of local traditions and local identity. Also in Scotland and Northern Island. Just read up on the history, recent (!) history of the Gaelic Language in Scotland e.g. and ask yourself if the same people that didn´t lifte a finger against that attempted Culturcide can really be expected to care much about local culture.

I guess I don't understand why the free movement of people is so important to some. It ends up with large part of the EU being abandoned and others being over burdened.


Because borders are one of the last forms of acceptable discriminatory devices, and should be removed wherever possible. Schengen is old, no member state has been swamped with people from other EU countries.

best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:37 pm

Olddog wrote:
I heard Theresa May this morning, and if things go her way, UK will have to trade with EU according to WTO rules it seems. :shock:


I can see another pragmatic outcome in the EU offering two alternative treaties:

a) one without freedom of movement and no payments to the EU budget, just limited adaptation of EU regulations (but a lot more bureaucracy in trade as a result) but also without full access to the common market which would appease the xenophobes but would be much less than ideal, a major step backwards from the current membership and hitting the UK economy hard, but that is simply the default option here which has always been openly visible

b) one with freedom of movement, with contributions to be paid to the EU budget and with adaptation of EU regulations but also with full access to the common market which would approximate at least the economic benefits of an EU membership just minus the extra perks Britain has had and minus having a say about any EU decisions any more

The Brexit referendum has backed Britain into a very tight corner which would actually only allow for option a), but the new PM could then put the two alternatives to a referendum for the UK population being able to manoeuver Britain out of its self-inflicted pinch again.

Of course at that point the voters would be forced to directly face the consequences of their earlier referendum decision. But it's not as if there were that many other alternatives.
 
victrola
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:55 pm

Boris Johnson has proven to be a total disgrace. He pushes for the Brexit and tells everyone how terrific it will be. Then once Brexit passes he doesn't have any idea how to deal with the fallout and difficult decisions that have to be made. It is so easy to break something, but much more difficult repair the damage.
 
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Revelation
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:43 pm

Thanks for the considerate and helpful replies.

tommy1808 wrote:
That is where you are wrong, most want what we have, because every single line in every single treaty has been agreed to by every single EU government for half a century and people did re-elect those governments again and again and again.

And yet 52% of the voters in the UK did vote to leave, and a common concern was the loss of control of all aspects of immigration, as well as the feeling that the EU is not reflecting the will of the UK's citizens. I think they would prefer a trading union as opposed to a United States of Europe.

tommy1808 wrote:
Do you mind people from Nebraska moving in next door to you? Or from Alaska? No? See, that is how "we" want "us" to feel as well.

My main point was that by getting to the desired situation by tossing open the borders and seeing how it all ends up is not workable and is naturally going to lead to resentment.

It just seems to be a non-pragmatic approach, overly simplistic if not idealistic, and bound to cause problems.

It makes it easy for the rabble rousers to undermine the whole project, which is exactly what we see now.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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seahawk
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:45 pm

JCTJennings wrote:
I think that we should refuse export licences for Airbus wings if the EU wants to get tough over trade. That would bring the whole Airbus project to a grinding halt. It would take years to set up a new wing manufacturing operation from scratch.


Or BMW. no more Minis for you. The Uk must simply not backdown and it will get all it wants.
 
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Revelation
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:49 pm

Olddog wrote:
I heard Theresa May this morning, and if things go her way, UK will have to trade with EU according to WTO rules it seems. :shock:

Shock? Seems to be the only path that actually achieves what the Leave campaign said they were aiming to do.

Klaus wrote:
I can see another pragmatic outcome in the EU offering two alternative treaties:

a) one without freedom of movement and no payments to the EU budget, just limited adaptation of EU regulations (but a lot more bureaucracy in trade as a result) but also without full access to the common market which would appease the xenophobes but would be much less than ideal, a major step backwards from the current membership and hitting the UK economy hard, but that is simply the default option here which has always been openly visible

b) one with freedom of movement, with contributions to be paid to the EU budget and with adaptation of EU regulations but also with full access to the common market which would approximate at least the economic benefits of an EU membership just minus the extra perks Britain has had and minus having a say about any EU decisions any more

The Brexit referendum has backed Britain into a very tight corner which would actually only allow for option a), but the new PM could then put the two alternatives to a referendum for the UK population being able to manoeuver Britain out of its self-inflicted pinch again.

Of course at that point the voters would be forced to directly face the consequences of their earlier referendum decision. But it's not as if there were that many other alternatives.


As above, the result of (b) is to still be in the EU in every aspect except name, and it would seem that suits neither the leave or remain sides.

I personally do not expect to see another referendum.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
Thanks for the considerate and helpful replies.

tommy1808 wrote:
That is where you are wrong, most want what we have, because every single line in every single treaty has been agreed to by every single EU government for half a century and people did re-elect those governments again and again and again.

And yet 52% of the voters in the UK did vote to leave, and a common concern was the loss of control of all aspects of immigration, as well as the feeling that the EU is not reflecting the will of the UK's citizens. I think they would prefer a trading union as opposed to a United States of Europe.


The propaganda that was based on has practically nothing to do what the EU actually is and does, so it would be completely irrelevant what changes were made to the EU.

Getting out of the EU is pretty much the only way for Britain now to get the toxic propaganda of the past several decades out of its system and to get an actually realistic picture of the difference between being in and out.

The EU has its full share of difficulties, problems and deficiencies, but that still is on a completely different level from the absurd fantasies the Brexit vote was based on.

Changes will have to take place in Britain first and foremost for dealing with the attitudes there.

Changes to the EU are relevant to the rest of us, though, and among these there should be the medium-term changing of the European Commission away from basically being a cabinet appointed by and shared among the member state governments and towards a government elected and controlled by the directly elected European Parliament which we already have but whose powers are still limited.

There are many other, smaller changes as well, and many needed reforms have in fact been blocked by Britain for many years because it was anathema to the british governments to have any deepening and strengthening of the European Union, but that is urgently needed in many places. Basing it on the European Parliament's direct democratic mandate is also the only real way to get that done in the longer run.


tommy1808 wrote:
Do you mind people from Nebraska moving in next door to you? Or from Alaska? No? See, that is how "we" want "us" to feel as well.

My main point was that by getting to the desired situation by tossing open the borders and seeing how it all ends up is not workable and is naturally going to lead to resentment.

It just seems to be a non-pragmatic approach, overly simplistic if not idealistic, and bound to cause problems.

It makes it easy for the rabble rousers to undermine the whole project, which is exactly what we see now.


Nope. It's pretty much a non-issue all across Europe in most cases.

The problem in Britain was (and is) that the conservative government first ran a brutal austerity policy cutting and squeezing social services to the brink and at the same time – supported by large parts of the press – the Brexit campaign ran a relentless scapegoating campaign against the EU and foreign workers which had actually been wanted and attracted by the UK government before.

Germany had a gradual admission scheme regarding access for people from the new eastern-european members, and that was fully in compliance with EU regulations. It was actually the british government's decision to forgo any such limitations and to welcome eastern-european workers with open arms right from the start, and to little surprise they actually came and helped the UK economy where they were needed.

And now they were made the scapegoats for the failings of the current government's austerity policy.

It's utterly disgusting, and it is not accidental at all that this diversion-by-scapegoating approach has been used many times before, with usually not very pretty results. Donald Trump is right now doing pretty much the same in the US.
Last edited by Klaus on Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
As above, the result of (b) is to still be in the EU in every aspect except name, and it would seem that suits neither the leave or remain sides.

I personally do not expect to see another referendum.


Well, during the Brexit campaign Norway and Switzerland were paraded as examples how rosy a future outside of the EU would be and how easy to obtain. And Norway has pretty much exactly what I listed as b).

Well, that the norwegian model included full freedom of movement and contributions to the EU budget was something Boris and Nigel carefully chose to omit, and that is where the lying propaganda part comes in...!

b) is effectively a necessity for the UK, but politically it requires another referendum or there will be hell to pay domestically.
 
Pihero
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:29 pm

seahawk wrote:
The Uk must simply not backdown and it will get all it wants.

You'd be lucky that most of the EU countries won't try and find ways of punishing your *treason* as one Polish minister called it.
I believe that it's going to be on some very strict negociation principles : The Norway alternative will be the basis, and certainly not a lot more.
The fault is with the people you trusted : they painted themselves - and you - in a very tight corner : the whole question of belonging to the EU or not became a very xenophobic - and racist - affirmation of identity : immigrants after your NHS ; if it was true, don't you think they would have gone to the better and best c are available : the Northern countries, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy ... which afford better, more affordable health care than the UK ?
And one remarkable woman died because of it ( have you forgotten ? )
No. the whole comedy was an attempt by some political bullies to corner some voters into backing them...
They succeeded beyond their dreams and found themselves the hostages of the very same voters they tried to swindle (So sorry, old chap... wizzard fight but we lost... how about making me the next PM ?)
And now the world is watching in astonishment the Queen's country transformed into a European banana republic with nobody ready to take the brexit hot potato... What a bunch of spineless gits !
Now is the time for second knives to come out... and they appear to be women.
In the mean time, some try to keep their illusions : "Britain will get all it wants..". Problem is there's not much to be wanting any more... 27 countries will manage it, and it won't be even a punishment...
Just a matter of avoiding any more un-niceties.
MM Cameron, Johnson and Farage made sure of it.
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tommy1808
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
That is where you are wrong, most want what we have, because every single line in every single treaty has been agreed to by every single EU government for half a century and people did re-elect those governments again and again and again.

And yet 52% of the voters in the UK did vote to leave, and a common concern was the loss of control of all aspects of immigration,


It maybe way, but as we know a good deal of the voters didn´t want to get out of the common market, the main reason why the Brexit cheerleaders constantly repeated "we will still have access to the common market and go and life wherever we want". Basically a snobbish "Well, we could always go to India when we wanted to, but they couldn´t come here" of the good old times.

That is where my criticism above come from, there where basically three camps (1. leave completely, 2. leave political union but stay in the common market and 3. stay. Those three options have been reduced to a binary option.
In order to have a majority of people that want to stay in the common market, only 4% of those that voted leave have to have meant option 2. Are you really sure that 96% of all those that voted leave meant "leave completely"? I´d consider it highly unlikely.

tommy1808 wrote:
point was that by getting to the desired situation by tossing open the borders and seeing how it all ends up is not workable and is naturally going to lead to resentment.


Common market and free movement of people isn´t exactly an old idea on this side of the pond. Even the Schengen agreement is over 30 years old.

Image

How is that not working? Economically the EU is just as successful as the USA, and of course you may or may not agree that in terms of social standards, human standards and the welfare of the many we turned out just fine. The only problem is Xenophopia and i don´t think phobias of any sort have a place in a secular, humanist society.

It just seems to be a non-pragmatic approach, overly simplistic if not idealistic, and bound to cause problems.


Well, if you mirrorimage the timeline from the EU starting poing we should have conquered France twice since WWII and fired artillery shells into Paris three times already. I´d say the benefits outweigh the problem by a fairly large margin.

It makes it easy for the rabble rousers to undermine the whole project, which is exactly what we see now.


And i guess in 10 years or so we will know if that was a good or a bad idea. My money is on bad, obviously, and when you see the current political turmoil in the UK, "the rats are leaving the sinking ship" comes to mind....

I guess this is what happend if you play high stakes house of cards, and that house does collapse. Do you feel that the Brexit leaders seem overly happy with the achievements? Ready to roll up the sleeves and make the UK great again? Or more like "Fuck, what are we supposed to do know?"?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:19 pm

One thing that was remarkable to me was that the constitutional monarchy showed its major weakness in the days since the referendum: The Queen has no authority and is effectively not allowed to jump in and help the british people to cope with the shock and the multiple divisions running across the country and between the generations while the political leadership is effectively absent without leave.

The Queen will most likely only pop up in this matter when she has to read the speech foisted on her by the new government, and that's pretty much it.

An elected president should and most likely would have been all over this crisis above the sheer partisan level, and being elected him- or herself he or she would indeed have had the authority for it, trying to mend the rifts caused by the referendum without taking sides. But the Queen just can't fill that urgently needed role, even if she wanted (or felt strong enough) to help. In some ways I pity her for having to live through this.

She's not just lived through the last great war herself but she's also seen a lot of the world and probably has a less isolated and ideological view than many Brexit voters.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:21 pm

I hadn't been following British politics for years, but now it's suddenly fascinating! This is certainly one of the biggest stories of the decade, and is a fascinating experiment, to say the least. If UK exports suffer because they're outside the EU (depending on what arrangements they come to), they could allow the pound to slide, which would be a huge boost for exports and tourism. While devaluation is a double-edged sword, it would give the British economy a huge shot in the arm, notwithstanding the accompanying inflation.

Historians just might look back and see Brexit as something that was inevitable: it has lanced a boil that has been festering for years. When things settle down, it will either encourage or dissuade independence movements in other EU countries. So it's probably something that needed to happen, not just for the above, but as a wake-up call to the rest of the EU.
 
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seahawk
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:34 pm

It is not a British phenomenon. If you would allow the people in the other countries to vote, they would go the same way. Every nation wants to preserve it´s identity.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:42 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is not a British phenomenon. If you would allow the people in the other countries to vote, they would go the same way. Every nation wants to preserve it´s identity.


:shock: Where did you get THAT from?
 
Klaus
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Re: EU referendum today

Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:51 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is not a British phenomenon. If you would allow the people in the other countries to vote, they would go the same way.


You will be shocked to discover the amount of deception specific to the british media and political scene which has led to Brexit.

Without that UK-specific deluge of anti-EU propaganda largely based on deliberate lies, the referendum would have gone the other way – by a mile.

There are lies and propaganda in other countries, too, but not at the overwhelming scale as in Britain through the past decades.

It is highly unlikely that even one other member country would leave via referendum, especially now as the very real consequences of such a step are emerging too starkly to be ignored.

Every nation wants to preserve it´s identity.


Sure. And we all have, including Britain. I'm sure you wouldn't hesitate to confirm that I'm as irritatingly and annoyingly german as it gets. 8-)

It's only you who have been told that your identity was somehow destroyed by the delusional straw man the europhobes have been waving in your face for years.

In reality, it is actually the EU which is actively supporting regional cultures all over the place with protective laws, regulations and even explicit funding for cultural preservation, even where the national governments consistently neglect those regional cultures or even attempt to suppress them.

All that will now go away in Britain, and I can only hope that the Westminster goverments of the future will be as keen on keeping british identities alive as the EU was – and still is, just in the other 27 countries after Britain's exit will be complete.

And if you have any doubts about national identities, have you been watching football recently? Well, okay. Touchy subject, I admit. ;-)

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