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WildcatYXU
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Re: EU referendum today

Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:04 pm

AAPilot wrote:
At the end of the day you can thank Merkel and his disastrous decision to let in over a million migrants who have contributed nothing but the increase of rape and crime in europe.


I stayed out of this discussion, as i don't have a horse in this race despite being a citizen of one of EU27 countries. But this is just unbelievable. You really did not read the whole discussion before posting? You really did not watch the news? So you don't know that the Brexiter's anti immigration propaganda wasn't focused against immigrants from outside the EU but against the citizens of other EU countries? Or are you simply trolling?

Now, with this out of the way, I'd like to thank Klaus, Aesma, Pihero, Tommy1808 , Scrimbl and other members for their posts. I've learned a lot. I learned some details about the EU (when I moved to Canada my old country wasn't n an EU member yet). I found out that the eurosceptics are using the same points everywhere. Even in some smallish, new EU member countries that have a lot to lose should they leave the EU. And lastly, I learned that many people have no clue how FTA's work.
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scbriml
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Re: EU referendum today

Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:15 pm

Klaus wrote:
So democracy in your vew means that even the slimmest majority can then run roughshod over both the minority and all non-voters?

That is not how it works!


As much as I dislike the result, in a simple majority vote, yes that's exactly how it works.

How else do you think it works? :?
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prebennorholm
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Re: EU referendum today

Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:43 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
AAPilot wrote:At the end of the day you can thank Merkel and his disastrous decision to let in over a million migrants who have contributed nothing but the increase of rape and crime in europe.

I stayed out of this discussion, as i don't have a horse in this race despite being a citizen of one of EU27 countries. But this is just unbelievable. You really did not read the whole discussion before posting? You really did not watch the news? So you don't know that the Brexiter's anti immigration propaganda wasn't focused against immigrants from outside the EU but against the citizens of other EU countries? Or are you simply trolling?

I think that AAPilot is right here. Had it not been for Frau Merkel on 31 August 2015 and "Wir schaffen das", then UKIP wouldn't have got the momentum, and we would have been sitting today with the same slightly reluctant UK as an EU member running into her 44th year of membership.

Of course we cannot know what would have happened in case of no "Wir schaffen das", or if Titanic had stayed afloat, or if....

But accusing AAPilot of trolling in this case is way over the edge.
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Braybuddy
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Re: EU referendum today

Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:16 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
I think that AAPilot is right here. Had it not been for Frau Merkel on 31 August 2015 and "Wir schaffen das", then UKIP wouldn't have got the momentum, and we would have been sitting today with the same slightly reluctant UK as an EU member running into her 44th year of membership.


I have to agree: if there is one thing that will tear apart the EU it is the migration/refugee crisis. It has already started with Brexit. The continent will have radically changed by 2026.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: EU referendum today

Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:30 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
I think that AAPilot is right here. Had it not been for Frau Merkel on 31 August 2015 and "Wir schaffen das", then UKIP wouldn't have got the momentum, and we would have been sitting today with the same slightly reluctant UK as an EU member running into her 44th year of membership.

Of course we cannot know what would have happened in case of no "Wir schaffen das", or if Titanic had stayed afloat, or if....

But accusing AAPilot of trolling in this case is way over the edge.


OK, I 'll bite. So Mrs. Merkel said that everybody from the new EU member countries can move to the UK and can displace the locals from their jobs? Because basically that was on UKIP's agenda. Or are you accusing 52% of British voters of being so dumb that they can't differentiate between two quite different problems? If so, this is way more over the edge than accusing AApilot of trolling.

PS: Uncontrolled immigration is an extremely dangerous experiment and it should have never happened. The EU's outer borders have to be properly protected and this flood of undocumented migrants has to be stopped. But it has nothing to do with the topic on hand.

The Berxiter's biggest problem was always Jerzy the Polish plumber and Janos the Hungarian farm hand. Ahmed, the Syrian refugee was never on the table
Or was he? I stand to be corrected.
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Braybuddy
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Re: EU referendum today

Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:43 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:

The Berxiter's biggest problem was always Jerzy the Polish plumber and Janos the Hungarian farm hand. Ahmed, the Syrian refugee was never on the table
Or was he? I stand to be corrected.


According to my UK friends, the Polish plumber or the Hungarian farm hand were manageable. The looked across the channel and saw (as David Cameron himself put it) migrants "swarming" to get to the UK. That, and the terrorist attacks in Paris and Brussels, sealed the vote for them.
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: EU referendum today

Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:09 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
The Berxiter's biggest problem was always Jerzy the Polish plumber and Janos the Hungarian farm hand. Ahmed, the Syrian refugee was never on the table
Or was he? I stand to be corrected.


It was a combination of the two. Intra-EU migration was the lessor of the two problems. Jerzy the Polish plumber is at least is working. Ahmed, the Syrian refugee as you call him is much less likely to find or even want a job (what was the statistic from one of the Scandinavian countries a couple of months ago - that out of over 100,000 "Syrian migrants who have permission to work less than 600 are actually working?). Jerzy is much more likely to successfully integrate into the culture - that's a simple fact. But it does still rankle a bit when Jerzy finds a job and a local British plumber cannot. But in my opinion that was still manageable.

The big problem that Brexiters had was that for both Intra-EU and Extra-EU immigration, the EU was effectively calling the shots and the British government had no say in the matter.

When a country does not have the right to control it's own borders and immigration policy, it ceases to be a country. That's not what the British signed up for when they entered the Common Market, and that's one of the reasons why they left, after realizing that the EU had become much more than a Common Market, and that their own sovereignty was at stake.

I remember when the Treaty of Maastricht was being debated in the early 90s. The Europhiles were adamant in reassuring the citizens of the Twelve that the EU would never become "The United States Of Europe", would never become a superstate that would squash the member states' national identities of sovereignty. 25 years later, it turns out that this is exactly what the EU desires to be. I think Britain was absolutely right to want out.
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prebennorholm
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:34 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
The Berxiter's biggest problem was always Jerzy the Polish plumber and Janos the Hungarian farm hand. Ahmed, the Syrian refugee was never on the table Or was he? I stand to be corrected.

Yup, please stand on your feet. Here is the correction:

The main concern of the British was to avoid to be forced into a German / Swedish style invasion. Jerzy and Janos were to great extent used as scapegoats for Ahmed. That way the Brexitters avoided to get stuck in the discussion whether Ahmed was a refugee or comfort-migrant. That way they also avoided to have to play against the racist card, as was the norm at similar, and very tough, discussions on the continent. Discussions which even escalated into burning down refugee centres mainly in Germany and Sweden.

It was tactically pretty smart by UKIP and others.

I find it rather sad that the UK leaves the EU. But the blame for it is to 99% placed on the continent. Anyway, the UK should have stayed onboard and used her wisdom to help to correct the many EU failures. Instead the UK wanted exceptions.

For instance Schengen came much too fast, and an already workable Frontex was a condition which wasn't met. The UK saw what mess that could create, and opted out of Schengen.

Europe would have been different today if the UK had helped: First a workable Frontex, then Schengen.

I don't know whether it could have been possible to convince a majority of the continent about the right sequence of implementation. I only know that it didn't happen so.
Last edited by prebennorholm on Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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WarRI1
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:25 am

Braybuddy wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:

The Berxiter's biggest problem was always Jerzy the Polish plumber and Janos the Hungarian farm hand. Ahmed, the Syrian refugee was never on the table
Or was he? I stand to be corrected.


According to my UK friends, the Polish plumber or the Hungarian farm hand were manageable. The looked across the channel and saw (as David Cameron himself put it) migrants "swarming" to get to the UK. That, and the terrorist attacks in Paris and Brussels, sealed the vote for them.


I am not from Europe of course, but from a country itself suffering growing pains from Immigrants who may not be good for the country or it's citizens, or economy. I would have voted to leave just for the reasons you stated. No question in my mind, that sealed the vote.
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WildcatYXU
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:15 am

Oh my god people, all of you: Uncontrolled immigration into the Schengen area was never a problem for the UK. THE UK WAS NEWER A PART OF THE SCHENGEN TREATY. Permission to stay at Schengen area does not apply to the UK. So all those awful immigrants could only enter the UK after clearing or bypassing British immigration.

Dreadnought wrote:
The big problem that Brexiters had was that for both Intra-EU and Extra-EU immigration, the EU was effectively calling the shots and the British government had no say in the matter.


Actually, as the UK is not a part of the Schengen treaty, the EU had no impact as far as extra EU immigration is concerned. That is until the immigrants become citizens. I don't know how is it in other EU countries, but in my old country it's not a fast or easy process.

Braybuddy wrote:

According to my UK friends, the Polish plumber or the Hungarian farm hand were manageable. The looked across the channel and saw (as David Cameron himself put it) migrants "swarming" to get to the UK. That, and the terrorist attacks in Paris and Brussels, sealed the vote for them.


See above

prebennorholm wrote:
Yup, please stand on your feet. Here is the correction:



No, I don't see a correction so far.

prebennorholm wrote:
The main concern of the British was to avoid to be forced into a German / Swedish style invasion.


Zero concern here as the British aren't a part of the Schengen treaty. And aren't obligated to join at all

prebennorholm wrote:

It was tactically pretty smart by UKIP and others.


Tactically smart is the newspeak for deceiving the public?

prebennorholm wrote:

For instance the Schengen came much too fast, and an already workable Frontex was a condition which wasn't met. The UK saw what mess that could create, and opted out of Schengen.



Here we agree, a working border protection agency is an absolute necessity to survival of Schengen treaty and the EU. In combination with the proper policies that is.
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WarRI1
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:43 am

Zero concern here as the British aren't a part of the Schengen treaty. And aren't obligated to join at all


I would guess the perception was that it would eventually lead to such an invasion. I do not blame the voters for not taken any chances at all. Get out while you can. Look at Germany and Sweden. How is that working for them?
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WildcatYXU
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:52 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Zero concern here as the British aren't a part of the Schengen treaty. And aren't obligated to join at all


I would guess the perception was that it would eventually lead to such an invasion. I do not blame the voters for not taken any chances at all. Get out while you can. Look at Germany and Sweden. How is that working for them?



Huh?
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WarRI1
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:56 am

Something you do not understand about the situation in Europe? We are not talking about an Army invasion. We are talking loss of sovereignty and a human invasion, at least I am. I do not think I am alone either. My perception of the situation.
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WildcatYXU
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:16 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Something you do not understand about the situation in Europe? We are not talking about an Army invasion. We are talking loss of sovereignty and a human invasion, at least I am. I do not think I am alone either. My perception of the situation.


Please explain the loss of sovereignty and the human invasion the UK was subject to.
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WarRI1
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:23 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Something you do not understand about the situation in Europe? We are not talking about an Army invasion. We are talking loss of sovereignty and a human invasion, at least I am. I do not think I am alone either. My perception of the situation.


Please explain the loss of sovereignty and the human invasion UK was subject to.



My total argument is based on perception of a situation and facts of what is happening in Europe. As has been said in the news here, a vote by the older generation in GB who have a preconceived perception of what can happen and is happening in their country. They plainly do not like the possibilities, as I would not and do not. Human invasions do not serve Sovereign nations well.
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WildcatYXU
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:29 am

WarRI1 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Something you do not understand about the situation in Europe? We are not talking about an Army invasion. We are talking loss of sovereignty and a human invasion, at least I am. I do not think I am alone either. My perception of the situation.


Please explain the loss of sovereignty and the human invasion UK was subject to.



My total argument is based on perception of a situation and facts of what is happening in Europe. As has been said in the news here, a vote by the older generation in GB who have a preconceived perception of what can happen and is happening in their country. They plainly do not like the possibilities, as I would not and do not. Human invasions do not serve Sovereign nations well.


It was said several times on this very topic: As the UK is not a part of the Schengen treaty, there is a very little chance that any massive invasion of unwanted migrants to British soil could happen. Unless the Brits consider EU citizens to be unwanted migrants. In this case, good riddance and welcome to the WTO rules. Or welcome to a similar treaty Canada has with the EU. Which would still really badly suck for the UK.
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WarRI1
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:49 am

It was said several times on this very topic: As the UK is not a part of the Schengen treaty, there is a very little chance that any massive invasion of unwanted migrants to British soil could happen. Unless the Brits consider EU citizens to be unwanted migrants. In this case, good riddance and welcome to the WTO rules. Or welcome to a similar treaty Canada has with the EU. Which would still really badly suck for the UK.

I will not argue with that. All I know is people do not trust their leaders almost everywhere. They lie, they cheat and they steal. I have always respected the British People. I do not trust their government anymore than they do to protect them and their heritage and Sovereignty. I do not trust ours either. humanity goes just so far and then it could be used to club you in the future.

You know and I know to what I refer. If I was as close to continental Europe as GB and saw this tide of humanity sitting 20 miles away because of stupid decisions by Germany and other EU leaders, damned if I would not vote to split from them also. I have been to GB and it was quite apparent the changes taking place and the fear arising from it. We can argue all night about this all to no avail. The people spoke and I agree with them. Our battle is now shaping up here about the same issues. I know of nobody in my circles who welcomes a human invasion here. I am not a Republican, but I see problems here already from non-assimilation/ religious issues from immigrants. We were a melting pot, not so much anymore. I hope Canada and the US are wiser than the EU. on this issue.
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seahawk
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:55 am

To be honest no border agency in the world will be able to cope when large parts of the population of a large nation are displaced due to a civil war. As long as nations on the way just let the refugees pass through, there is nothing you can do to protect your borders unless you are willing to shoot at refugees.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:45 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
Oh my god people, all of you: Uncontrolled immigration into the Schengen area was never a problem for the UK. THE UK WAS NEWER A PART OF THE SCHENGEN TREATY. Permission to stay at Schengen area does not apply to the UK. So all those awful immigrants could only enter the UK after clearing or bypassing British immigration.


While the UK is outside Schengen, it has committed to taking 20,000 Syrian refugees over five years. With no control on immigration to the continent there would obviously be strong pressure for that to increase as long as the migration crisis lasts, which it will do as long as the EU continues to facilitate traffickers. A lot of voters in the UK looked at what's happening on the continent, didn't like it, and simply said "We're out!".
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:49 am

Dreadnought wrote:
When a country does not have the right to control it's own borders and immigration policy, it ceases to be a country. That's not what the British signed up for when they entered the Common Market


That is actually exactly what they signed up for when they joined the EU. European integration was the idea behind the foundation of it, the common market is just a part of that integration. There are ways to "just" get the common market, the UK decided not to exploit that option and become a full member of an organisation that has European integration on its mind.
They got exactly what they signed up for.

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Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
That is actually exactly what they signed up for when they joined the EU.

best regards
Thomas


But Britain didn't join the EU. They joined the EEC.
Last edited by Braybuddy on Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Olddog
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:05 am

And it is exactly why De Gaulle vetoed the UK entrance until his death.
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:53 am

Braybuddy wrote:
But Britain didn't join the EU. The joined the EEC.


For the purpose of the argument that is the same. Even if they had joint as early as the European Coal and Steel Community, they would have signed up to a supranational union with further integration on its mind. The Schuman Declaration is pretty hard to misunderstand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuman_Declaration

Like it or not, that is the foundation the European Union and all its predecessors are standing on.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:57 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
But Britain didn't join the EU. The joined the EEC.

For the purpose of the argument that is the same.


Do you really think that that Angela Merkel's unilateral throwing open the doors of Europe to hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants -- with no upper limit -- is the "coming together of nations", as envisioned in the Schuman Declaration?
 
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Dano1977
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:39 pm

We now will have a Prime minister who has said Brexit means Brexit so l would like to think by Jan 1st we will have invoked Article 50 and be on our way out of the door before Italy needs a bailout.

Italy is Europe’s fourth-biggest economy and one of its weakest. Public debt stands at 135% of GDP; the adult employment rate is lower than in any EU country bar Greece. The economy has been moribund for years, suffocated by over-regulation and feeble productivity. Amid stagnation and deflation, Italy’s banks are in deep trouble, burdened by some €360 billion ($400 billion) of souring loans, the equivalent of a fifth of the country’s GDP. Collectively they have provisioned for only 45% of that amount. At best, Italy’s weak banks will throttle the country’s growth; at worst some will go bust.
Some sort of fudge is more likely. There is already talk of a handy clause in the bail-in rule book that would allow a temporary capital injection for Monte dei Paschi. That may be enough to put a floor under stock prices so that Italy’s other banks, such as UniCredit, are able to raise private capital. Europe would doubtless hail such an outcome as an example of rules-based solidarity. But if history is any guide, it would neither return Italian banks to full health nor resolve any of the bloc’s underlying problems. One lesson of Brexit is that glossing over the concerns of voters is not a sustainable strategy. The euro zone’s jerry-built financial architecture does so twice over, by sidestepping the fears of those in creditor and debtor countries. That will not work for ever—which is why investors are right to be so worried.
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Olddog
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:58 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Do you really think that that Angela Merkel's unilateral throwing open the doors of Europe to hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants -- with no upper limit -- is the "coming together of nations", as envisioned in the Schuman Declaration?


Maybe you should realize that the million refugees branded as a giant scarecrow is less than 0,2 % of the EU total. Besides it seems that germans have a bit of erection problem so they need migrants to get new cheap labour.
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:08 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Do you really think that that Angela Merkel's unilateral throwing open the doors of Europe to hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants -- with no upper limit -- is the "coming together of nations", as envisioned in the Schuman Declaration?


No, it is a result of nations not coming together and sharing the load.
Our constitution doesn´t know a limit on asylum, and neither does that right in any other constitution i´ve ever read.

olddog wrote:
Maybe you should realize that the million refugees branded as a giant scarecrow is less than 0,2 % of the EU total.


Well, the problem with large numbers. Even if those lives 100% to someones own living standard, it would cost less than one minute pay per day.

Besides it seems that germans have a bit of erection problem so they need migrants to get new cheap labour.


Mmm... if someone takes care of my gf due to that problem one day, i´d rather charge than pay for it :mrgreen:

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
TheSonntag
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:29 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
But Britain didn't join the EU. The joined the EEC.

For the purpose of the argument that is the same.


Do you really think that that Angela Merkel's unilateral throwing open the doors of Europe to hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants -- with no upper limit -- is the "coming together of nations", as envisioned in the Schuman Declaration?


Repeating extreme right-wing Propaganda all the time does not make it any closer to the truth.

First of all ,Germany did not start the mess in Syria. In fact, the Iraq war which GWB started and where the UK, Denmark and some other coalition of the willing People were happy to join was one of the main reasons behind this mess.

But even if we just look back to last year - Merkel did not tell the whole world to come to Europe. She just reacted to a crisis which the countries simply were not ready to cope with, unlike Germany, which mastered the crisis without any severe problems at all.

And before you mention cologne, those guys came from Morocco, a domestic Problem of North Rhine Westfalia who were incompetent in throwing them away.

Anyway, be it as it may be, last year there was exactly n o alternative. Now, there are measures in place which are getting control over the Problem, which is so big that no Country can solve it alone.

But I have yet to hear just one WORKING solution from the unsolidaric member states.

And this is simply why the EU is needed: No Country is strong enough to solve the Problems of the world alone. Germany is not, the UK is not, and not even the US is.

And the EU is not cherry picking only. Based on that, it is probably good the UK finally leaves.

I just wonder sometimes how remembering the deceased of 1916 and hating the EU goes together so well in the UK.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:43 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
For the purpose of the argument that is the same.


Do you really think that that Angela Merkel's unilateral throwing open the doors of Europe to hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants -- with no upper limit -- is the "coming together of nations", as envisioned in the Schuman Declaration?


Repeating extreme right-wing Propaganda all the time does not make it any closer to the truth.

First of all ,Germany did not start the mess in Syria. In fact, the Iraq war which GWB started and where the UK, Denmark and some other coalition of the willing People were happy to join was one of the main reasons behind this mess.

But even if we just look back to last year - Merkel did not tell the whole world to come to Europe. She just reacted to a crisis which the countries simply were not ready to cope with, unlike Germany, which mastered the crisis without any severe problems at all.

And before you mention cologne, those guys came from Morocco, a domestic Problem of North Rhine Westfalia who were incompetent in throwing them away.

Anyway, be it as it may be, last year there was exactly n o alternative. Now, there are measures in place which are getting control over the Problem, which is so big that no Country can solve it alone.

But I have yet to hear just one WORKING solution from the unsolidaric member states.

And this is simply why the EU is needed: No Country is strong enough to solve the Problems of the world alone. Germany is not, the UK is not, and not even the US is.

And the EU is not cherry picking only. Based on that, it is probably good the UK finally leaves.

I just wonder sometimes how remembering the deceased of 1916 and hating the EU goes together so well in the UK.



Yet, If the EU is so fantastic, they think best chance of keeping the EU together is to make an example of the United Kingdom and to do so quickly so that the economics put anyone else off trying the same thing.

But if the EU is so good why are they worried in the slightest of any others following suit? Surley retaining members should not be about threats and coersion or setting an example of leavers should it?

It should be basis on the collective Benefits the EU has to offer.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
Klaus wrote:
So democracy in your vew means that even the slimmest majority can then run roughshod over both the minority and all non-voters?

That is not how it works!


As much as I dislike the result, in a simple majority vote, yes that's exactly how it works.

How else do you think it works? :?


a) minority protections and other limitations are essential to any modern democratic system

b) my primary point here was in response to the "your side lost, now shut up!" demands made by Brexit supporters: that is exactly not how it works, and for good reasons; The dissenting views of the minority are an essential part of any democracy, especially when the majority is making mistakes (but even when it's right)
 
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seahawk
Posts: 9872
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:40 pm

Economy in the UL on way to a boom: http://www.express.co.uk/finance/person ... ensions-up

Continental Stock mArkets still down, so it seems like the UK did the right thing.
 
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Dano1977
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 pm

seahawk wrote:
Economy in the UL on way to a boom: http://www.express.co.uk/finance/person ... ensions-up

Continental Stock mArkets still down, so it seems like the UK did the right thing.


That's the Daily Express... The paper that predicts Winter weather Armageddon in July and Hottest Summers since records began in December.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10148
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:54 pm

Dano1977 wrote:

But if the EU is so good why are they worried in the slightest of any others following suit? Surley retaining members should not be about threats and coersion or setting an example of leavers should it?

It should be basis on the collective Benefits the EU has to offer.


There are senior EU Politicians who are pretty afraid right now - they fear that the UK can start a series of departures and that just won't work. The EU has failed when it comes performing for the average citizen/voter and that was driving the BRITEX vote.

The job for the EU right now is to slow down the filing of Article 50 and that means some informal discussions between leaders (including the UK) covering both the demise of BRITEX and ensuring that NATO is maintained at current configuration.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13997
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:58 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
Surley retaining members should not be about threats and coersion or setting an example of leavers should it?


If I tell my boss that I want to quit, he telling me that this means I have to return my company car is not him threatening me.

it should be basis on the collective Benefits the EU has to offer.


And it is, it just gets iffy when someone wants to reap all the benefits, but without following the rules of the club.

TheSonntag wrote:
In fact, the Iraq war which GWB started and where the UK, Denmark and some other coalition of the willing


Yup. My tax money to clean up their mess. It would be nice if this part of collective responsibility would be paid by the whole collective.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Braybuddy
Posts: 6827
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:00 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
No, it is a result of nations not coming together and sharing the load.


Nations not coming together to share Frau Merkel's load? While you may agree with her stance, she torpedoed democracy and unity in Europe by welcoming unvetted migrants without agreement from her Schengen counterparts.

tommy1808 wrote:
Our constitution doesn´t know a limit on asylum, and neither does that right in any other constitution i´ve ever read.


You don't seem to have a limit on economic migrants either.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19461
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:45 pm

Klaus wrote:
a) minority protections and other limitations are essential to any modern democratic system

b) my primary point here was in response to the "your side lost, now shut up!" demands made by Brexit supporters: that is exactly not how it works, and for good reasons; The dissenting views of the minority are an essential part of any democracy, especially when the majority is making mistakes (but even when it's right)


When it's a binary vote between black and white, the winner takes all. You don't end up with grey.

That said, of course the vote was between remaining in the EU and leaving the EU. The challenge being, nobody actually defined what "leaving the EU" would look like, so whatever we end up with, it's likely only a minority will be happy with it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1565
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:47 pm

So May Wednesday, article 50 Friday ? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 
Ken777
Posts: 10148
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:59 pm

Olddog wrote:
So May Wednesday, article 50 Friday ?


May Wednesday?

Probably

Article 50 Friday?

Doubt it.

Only a fool would let the anti-UK politicians in the EU pressure the UK into filing fast. There needs to be sufficient discussions within the UK political and legal environments anything is filed. There is also a need for reasonable politicians in the EU to recognize that there needs to be some informal discussions completed before anything formal is filed.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1565
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:09 pm

Only retarded EU politicians would start negotiations before article 50 is triggered.

I suppose you are american, that could explain why you are so sympathetic with UK position. But if "reasonable" politicians in the EU fall for that trick, they will face a very angry EU parliament.

When "No negotiations before article 50" will mean No negotiations in your mind?

Why EU should allow UK to prepare a new blackmail?
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19461
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:19 pm

Olddog wrote:
So May Wednesday, article 50 Friday ?


A new PM on Wednesday? Just about certain.

Article 50 triggered Friday? Dream on. :lol:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:10 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
Surley retaining members should not be about threats and coersion or setting an example of leavers should it?


If I tell my boss that I want to quit, he telling me that this means I have to return my company car is not him threatening me.

it should be basis on the collective Benefits the EU has to offer.


And it is, it just gets iffy when someone wants to reap all the benefits, but without following the rules of the club.

TheSonntag wrote:
In fact, the Iraq war which GWB started and where the UK, Denmark and some other coalition of the willing


Yup. My tax money to clean up their mess. It would be nice if this part of collective responsibility would be paid by the whole collective.

Best regards
Thomas



Actually I prefer - A couple has just separated, one partner has gone to work, while the other has had the locks changed on the marital home, and refusing to let the other in until certain demands are made - and the only contact is through lawyers.

Second point in bold. Well the UK tried that - Tony Blair negotiated part of the UK's rebate back in return for review/changes to the Common Agriculture Policy in 2010 - The EU got the money, but where is the review/changes for the CAP?
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
wingman
Posts: 4033
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:57 pm

This thread is long and obviously very heated. FWIW The Economist has several insightful (and calm) pieces on Brexit in this week's issue. Now that the pandemonium has settled somewhat it's interesting to get their take on the critical objectives for the new PM. In summary, not all is doom and gloom (yet!). What they boil this all down to is that the Norway solution is really the only viable option to pursue. And yet it doesn't provide for the key demand of the Brexit voters which is to reinstate full border controls. If the UK caves in on that demand it will be in order to save London's status as the financial hub of Europe. But it comes with zero influence in EU affairs. The writers seem to agree that Europe will not allow full participation without acquiescence on free movement of people, so the UK would see great damage done to London and irreparable long term harm to the general economy by standing firm on border controls. I'm sure many people above have already come to a similar conclusion. The facts will become apparent over the next two years as the divorce terms are agreed to, and as one letter to the editor so eloquently put it..(sic) "imagine agreeing to a divorce with your spouse and then finding out afterward what will happen to the kids, the money and the house".
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:06 pm

I'm really amazed at the level of arguments only based on the brxiteers lies and some arrogant notion of England of the 19th century.
What annoys - really does annoy me is the insults cast at some old enemy, namely Mrs Merkel accused of all the woes of Europe. As far asq I know, *her* immigration policy has been accepted by some lesser countries, like France, for instance.
It doesn't surprise me, the whole vote was, as a matter of fact, about racism.
That remlinds me of a recent UNICEF Ops : they used the same little girl, once in nice clothes and clean face, thezen with tattered clothes and a grimy face : First she was cuddled and helped, and thoroughly / violently rejected when she looked like a refugee.
You don't want the refugees ?
Fine. First get them out of Calais, 'cause after all, we're giving you a favour by preventing reaching your shores.
Second, Pleeeeeeease, close the tunnel, it has costed already too much for us here.
Third, be reasonable for once : accept that the days of blackmailing the Union have gone by, and frankly, you don't have the cards for that sort of game any more.
ken wrote : "
Only a fool would let the anti-UK politicians in the EU pressure the UK into filing fast. There needs to be sufficient discussions within the UK political and legal environments anything is filed. There is also a need for reasonable politicians in the EU to recognize that there needs to be some informal discussions completed before anything formal is filed. "

Do you mean as reasonable as the clowns who took you lot for a bumpy ride and left you right in the middle of the excrements they left for you to try and cross ?
We can be patient : you can delay article 50 implementation for as long as it suits you... but in the end, it doesn't matter : you'll be out and the longer it trakes, the longer your super-duper accords with China, Russia and the US will be delayed... and it won't prevent EU countries to start moving their assets elsewhere ( Watch Nissan, for instance ).
The first economical aspect to be hit will be your banking services : passporting in Euros will be soon drastically reduced, even before you'd left the EU.
Look in the business papers for some movements.
You were once a great nation I did admire and respect.
...and the saddest part of this whole affair is that I am not alone with such thoughts ... and my wife will have her French passport very soon.
Contrail designer
 
LAH1
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:51 pm


Fine. First get them out of Calais, 'cause after all, we're giving you a favour by preventing reaching your shores.

Second, Pleeeeeeease, close the tunnel, it has costed already too much for us here.


Well perhaps if the Euro borders were properly enforced they would not have got as far as Calais, where the UK are also contributing millions towards security.

I never knew that the French were the only ones to pay for the Channel Tunnel, :roll: C'm on. Those two are pretty poor arguments. As for blackmailing the Union... how come the requests (or blackmailing as you put it) were accepted by the Union if they were so bad for it? It seems there are Europeans who are sad to see Brexit and those who are saying "good riddance." They can't both be right.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10148
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:37 pm

Olddog wrote:
Only retarded EU politicians would start negotiations before article 50 is triggered.

I suppose you are american, that could explain why you are so sympathetic with UK position. But if "reasonable" politicians in the EU fall for that trick, they will face a very angry EU parliament.

When "No negotiations before article 50" will mean No negotiations in your mind?


Yep, I am an American, but one that likes France and Italy as such as the UK.

I don't consider myself ore sympathetic with the UK - I consider some of the Leave politicians comments to be just as out of place as some of the "no informal discussions" comments in the EU.

I think I am tar enough away to try to look at both sides with reasonable fairness. For me the first issue is not Article 50, but the potential impact the current comments could have on NATO.

Do you really believe that EU politicians would be willing to send their young people to a war to protect the UK? Or UK politicians willing to send their sons to war to protect those in the EU currently showing hatred to the UK?

That issue is why I'm focused on the need to have informal discussions ASAP. It is, I believe, important to get away from the bitterness we are seeing and rebuild relationships.
 
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OA260
Posts: 24919
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:18 pm

Ken777 wrote:
That issue is why I'm focused on the need to have informal discussions ASAP.  It is, I believe, important to get away from the bitterness we are seeing and rebuild relationships.


Correct and right. All this bitterness and retards talking about shutting the channel tunnel is just BS. Informal talks are already going on albeit on a smaller scale. There will be an agreement on various things and an orderly exit from the EU as that is the best and most rational process for both the UK and the remaining EU member states. You are totally right when you say its time for rebuilding relationships and moving on as trade partners once the UK has left the EU. In a few years time this will all be water under the bridge.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 13650
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU referendum today

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:57 am

wingman wrote:
This thread is long and obviously very heated. FWIW The Economist has several insightful (and calm) pieces on Brexit in this week's issue. Now that the pandemonium has settled somewhat it's interesting to get their take on the critical objectives for the new PM. In summary, not all is doom and gloom (yet!). What they boil this all down to is that the Norway solution is really the only viable option to pursue. And yet it doesn't provide for the key demand of the Brexit voters which is to reinstate full border controls. If the UK caves in on that demand it will be in order to save London's status as the financial hub of Europe. But it comes with zero influence in EU affairs. The writers seem to agree that Europe will not allow full participation without acquiescence on free movement of people, so the UK would see great damage done to London and irreparable long term harm to the general economy by standing firm on border controls. I'm sure many people above have already come to a similar conclusion. The facts will become apparent over the next two years as the divorce terms are agreed to, and as one letter to the editor so eloquently put it..(sic) "imagine agreeing to a divorce with your spouse and then finding out afterward what will happen to the kids, the money and the house".


Many Brexiters don't care about London, don't care about the City, don't care about bankers earning millions, but of course the Economist is not a paper that listens to these people.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
wingman
Posts: 4033
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: EU referendum today

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:25 am

I see your point but would respectfully disagree. The Economist is on record decrying gross income inequality and your post suggests they do not. I think the editors, like most rational people, want an economy that works for everyone. London is the engine of the UK economy, there's nothing to replace it as a source of job creation across the entire country. If May botches this negotiation and the press and politicians are unable to convince the populace that the Norway solution is the only way forward, London will lose its status and the UK will be truly done for. And for Brexiteers a Norway solution will be the most ironic of outcomes because the borders will remain open but they won't have any representation in Brussels to bitch about it on their behalf.

The vote is a calamity for the ages and will ultimately consign Brexit leaders to their quite shite and well-deserved place in history. The consensus I'm reading in the papers now is that for Boris Johnson this was all just a power play disguised as a jolly good laugh, while Farage seems to be one of the great buffoons of modern English history. Sadly on both sides of the Atlantic we see that buffoons can be much more entertaining and influential than pasty-faced technocrats.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13997
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:09 am

Ken777 wrote:
as some of the "no informal discussions" comments in the EU..


The EU has been blackmailed by the UK often enough, it would be beyond stupid to start informal talks and hand them the leverage of only triggering Art. 50 after informally reaching an agreement they happen to like, and hold the EU economy hostage until that day. Threatening to leave to get their special exceptions written down for decades and then threaten again to not leave if they don´t get they special exceptions when their bluff is called isn´t fair play.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Olddog
Posts: 1565
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: EU referendum today

Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
then threaten again to not leave if they don´t get they special exceptions when their bluff is called isn´t fair play.

best regards
Thomas



Well, in France we say British invented fair-play just for the others to use :mrgreen:

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