pvjin wrote:

I really hope Turkey's tourism industry will take a major hit now. I don't understand why people would travel into a islamo-fascist dictatorship like that

A lot of people simply don't care as long as they have a nice hotel, a decent beach and the price is low. But, even before the "coup", tourism from EU countries was down by around 35% and from Russia down by 95%. My belief is that the only reason Erdogan apologised for the shoot-down of the Russian fighter was to try and get back the missing Russian tourists.

alberchico wrote:

Wouldn't any country that has had an attempted coup implement these measures ?

Dealing with the military ring-leaders, sure. But this? Looks more like a thinly disguised purge of anyone who might use their brain for thinking anti-Erdogan thoughts.

alberchico wrote:

Wouldn't any country that has had an attempted coup implement these measures ?

.... usually just those that want to round up the intelligentsia to shoot them.

best regards
Thomas

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36852080

A state of emergency has been declared but:

"Recep Tayyip Erdogan said citizens should not have "the slightest concern with regards to democracy, rule of law, fundamental rights and freedoms".

alberchico wrote:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36852080

A state of emergency has been declared but:

"Recep Tayyip Erdogan said citizens should not have "the slightest concern with regards to democracy, rule of law, fundamental rights and freedoms".

Oh, well, then. That's very reassuring.

alberchico wrote:

"Recep Tayyip Erdogan said citizens should not have "the slightest concern with regards to democracy, rule of law, fundamental rights and freedoms".

And to prove the point that he cares, he will relieve the population of those concerns by removing democracy, rule of law, fundamental rights and freedoms. How sweet of him.

DocLightning wrote:

alberchico wrote:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36852080
A state of emergency has been declared but:
"Recep Tayyip Erdogan said citizens should not have "the slightest concern with regards to democracy, rule of law, fundamental rights and freedoms".

Oh, well, then. That's very reassuring.

As a Azeri speaking contributor, let me just say 2 points for Anetters.

1) Turkey is a disaster. A week before the coup, these guys were assaulting each other in the Parliament building, literally. The problem is not just creeping Islamization, the coup, authoritarian Erdogan, Kurdish uprisings, failed attempt to topple Assad, ISIS infiltration, 3.5 million Syrian Arab refugees etc. its that the Turkish society is sharply divided and polarized. Either a Turk loves Erdogan or hates him. And its a near 50/50 split. It looks like a civil war type scenario IMO. Anti-Americanism is rampant and they are blaming the US for holding Gulen here in PA and "conspiring" with him.

2) Even worse, because the West is so totally desperate to keep Turkey in "Western Civilization", they'll overlook all their democratic values, allow the purge to continue and lose any morsel of moral credibility left on human rights, freedom of the press, free speech and democratic values. It will become the greatest double standard in US foreign policy there is (beyond Israel) in the eyes of most people in the middle east.

It would have been a gift if the coup had succeeded. It would have been easier to call for new elections and restart the process. Now 1 idiot might ruin the only successful Islamic democracy there is.

We're best buddies with the Saudis and not even 9-11 put a dent in that relationship. Erdogan has miles to go before he starts testing our double-standard limits.

wingman wrote:

We're best buddies with the Saudis and not even 9-11 put a dent in that relationship. Erdogan has miles to go before he starts testing our double-standard limits.

We are "buddies" with the House of Saud because the alternative - complete domination by Wahabi clerics - is even worse. The Sauds have been trying for most of the last two centuries to keep the Wahabis in check, with wavering success.

So I take it you would prefer that the Sauds be deposed and the Wahabis take over completely?

Dreadnought wrote:

The Sauds have been trying for most of the last two centuries to keep the Wahabis in check, with wavering success. So I take it you would prefer that the Sauds be deposed and the Wahabis take over completely?

The house of Saud is and has been in a partnership with the Wahhabists - the partnership is so close that we might as well consider "Saudi' and "Wahabi" as synonyms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Dreadnought wrote:

We are "buddies" with the House of Saud because the alternative - complete domination by Wahabi clerics - is even worse.

The question here is: don't the extreme Wahhabists already dominate the culture of Saudi Arabia? Can the Saud family exhibit anything but token influence on the monster they have created? IMO not so much and the Saud family influence is going to become less in the future.

The salient reasons we are bound to the Saudis is to provide a counterweight to Iran and to see to it that Russia doesn't take over the ME oilfields. If we weren't so afraid of Iran, we could just back off and let them take care of the Sunni nutjobs; the oil would keep flowing under Iranian tutelage. The oilfields are mostly in Shia turf anyway.

Dreadnought wrote:

wingman wrote:

We're best buddies with the Saudis and not even 9-11 put a dent in that relationship. Erdogan has miles to go before he starts testing our double-standard limits.

We are "buddies" with the House of Saud because the alternative - complete domination by Wahabi clerics - is even worse. The Sauds have been trying for most of the last two centuries to keep the Wahabis in check, with wavering success.

So I take it you would prefer that the Sauds be deposed and the Wahabis take over completely?

That's a laugh seeing as many members of the House of Saud are big sponsors of Wahhabism.

salttee wrote:

The question here is: don't the extreme Wahhabists already dominate the culture of Saudi Arabia? Can the Saud family exhibit anything but token influence on the monster they have created? IMO not so much and the Saud family influence is going to become less in the future.

TheF15Ace wrote:

That's a laugh seeing as many members of the House of Saud are big sponsors of Wahhabism.

That's true. Most analysts believe that as much as a third of the Royal Family is deeply involved with the Wahabis and all the associated terrorist organizations they fund, including Al Qaeda and ISIS.

But my question to you remains unanswered - would you prefer that we let the House of Saud fall, and the country goes 100% radical Islam?

This question is especially valid for those people who complained that "Saddam was bad but what we unleashed by invading Iraq was worse".

I don't really have a horse in this debate to be honest. I believe strongly in democracy and freedom but Turkey and Saudi are too important to foment unrest in with their money and proximity to critical geographic bits. Best to have supposed friends keep a lid on the inherent madness of extreme religious fervor than letting it loose. A sad state of affairs but until moderate Islam can take control we'll be reliant on people like Erdogan to control the temperature, I hope for Turkeys sake though that he doesn't push his luck too far.

So to sum up :


Turkey’s coup in numbers

21,000 private teachers have licences removed
15,000 suspended from education ministry
8,000 police officers detained or suspended
6,000 soldiers detained
1,500 staff at Ministry of Finance dismissed
3213 ham radio operators with license revoked.
2745 judges dismissed
1,577 deans – Education board demands resignation
492 sacked from Religious Affairs Directorate
399 from Ministry of Family and Social Policies stripped of responsibilities
257 fired from the prime minister’s office
100 intelligence officials sacked
47 district governors dismissed
30 provincial governors dismissed
20 news websites blocked

Comments

Hopefully this is only the beginning and president Erdogan will find and punish all traitors.

Dreadnought wrote:

salttee wrote:

The question here is: don't the extreme Wahhabists already dominate the culture of Saudi Arabia? Can the Saud family exhibit anything but token influence on the monster they have created? IMO not so much and the Saud family influence is going to become less in the future.

TheF15Ace wrote:

That's a laugh seeing as many members of the House of Saud are big sponsors of Wahhabism.

That's true. Most analysts believe that as much as a third of the Royal Family is deeply involved with the Wahabis and all the associated terrorist organizations they fund, including Al Qaeda and ISIS.

But my question to you remains unanswered - would you prefer that we let the House of Saud fall, and the country goes 100% radical Islam?

This question is especially valid for those people who complained that "Saddam was bad but what we unleashed by invading Iraq was worse".

Ultimately it would be a good thing for the world if Saudi-Arabia fell into total chaos, because then Wahhabists would soon have less oil money they can use to spread their radical ideology abroad.Comparison to Iraq isn't very valid here as Saddam was a rather secular ruler to whom radical Islam was an enemy, not an ally.

This is looking more and more like a staged coup by a foreign hand. 50,000 connected names in four days? Two anti-Erdogan F-16 pilots with his G550 in their sights and they failed to shoot it down? Come on. Likely to be the US/CIA fed up with Erdogan's antics or a joint effort with Russia to make it look like the US if you ask me.

pvjin wrote:

Ultimately it would be a good thing for the world if Saudi-Arabia fell into total chaos, because then Wahhabists would soon have less oil money they can use to spread their radical ideology abroad.

Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Why do you think Arabia would fall into chaos, and why do you think they would have less money available? They currently get a third of oil revenues, they would then get 100%.

Dreadnought wrote:

salttee wrote:

The question here is: don't the extreme Wahhabists already dominate the culture of Saudi Arabia? Can the Saud family exhibit anything but token influence on the monster they have created? IMO not so much and the Saud family influence is going to become less in the future.

TheF15Ace wrote:

That's a laugh seeing as many members of the House of Saud are big sponsors of Wahhabism.

That's true. Most analysts believe that as much as a third of the Royal Family is deeply involved with the Wahabis and all the associated terrorist organizations they fund, including Al Qaeda and ISIS.

But my question to you remains unanswered - would you prefer that we let the House of Saud fall, and the country goes 100% radical Islam?

This question is especially valid for those people who complained that "Saddam was bad but what we unleashed by invading Iraq was worse".

If the House of Saud is to fall it should be purely internal. The west should have no part in it.

As to the question of radical islamist getting 100% of the oil revenue, the obvious solution is not buy their oil. You cannot exactly fight radical islam on one front and buy oil from them on another.

TheF15Ace wrote:

As to the question of radical islamist getting 100% of the oil revenue, the obvious solution is not buy their oil. You cannot exactly fight radical islam on one front and buy oil from them on another.

Such embargos have never worked. ISIS managed to sell oil, Iran, Iraq all managed to find buyers under the table. China won't give a shit about embargoes - hell they would vote for it at the UN, and then buy from them anyway at a discount.

Dreadnought wrote:

TheF15Ace wrote:

As to the question of radical islamist getting 100% of the oil revenue, the obvious solution is not buy their oil. You cannot exactly fight radical islam on one front and buy oil from them on another.

Such embargos have never worked. ISIS managed to sell oil, Iran, Iraq all managed to find buyers under the table. China won't give a shit about embargoes - hell they would vote for it at the UN, and then buy from them anyway at a discount.

You have a valid point though I still feel their revenue would decrease significantly if the west stops purchasing their oil.

I'm not saying my post had the perfect solution, what I simply meant was Saudi cannot be ignored in the current battle against Islamic extremism. They will grow only more arrogant and continue to fund these psychopaths, the longer the west ignores the problem

TheF15Ace wrote:

I'm not saying my post had the perfect solution, what I simply meant was Saudi cannot be ignored in the current battle against Islamic extremism. They will grow only more arrogant and continue to fund these psychopaths, the longer the west ignores the problem

On that we agree. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States are a major problem and there is no clear solution.

Dreadnought wrote:

pvjin wrote:

Ultimately it would be a good thing for the world if Saudi-Arabia fell into total chaos, because then Wahhabists would soon have less oil money they can use to spread their radical ideology abroad.

Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Why do you think Arabia would fall into chaos, and why do you think they would have less money available? They currently get a third of oil revenues, they would then get 100%.

Well, with Saud family gone there would be a power vacuum, and probably multiple different groups would try to fill it, creating a nice little civil war. Doing oil business in middle of a civil war is difficult. Also with oil business out & Saudis not buying American weapons the international community could finally go and bomb the hell out of local Wahhabists.

Why not allow the Shiites to solve the Wahabbist problem?

maximo leader now has the pilots arrested that shot down the Russian fighter...

Best regards
Thomas

Turkey to "temporarily" suspend European Convention on Human Rights after coup attempt.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... sCatID=338

pvjin wrote:

Also with oil business out & Saudis not buying American weapons the international community could finally go and bomb the hell out of local Wahhabists.

Bomb the hell out of them for exactly what reason? Being Wahhabists? 21st century inquisition?

I'm most definitely not a fan of the Saudi government and neither of extreme religious groups like the Wahhabists but does that give us the reason to "bomb" them? Heck I'm by far not a fan of Putin still I don't want the Kremlin to be bombed away, talk about medieval standards...

I know that there are rumors Wahhabits are financing certain mosques in central europe that are frequented by more radicalized youth in an attempt to extend their influence but there sure are other ways to combat this than bomb runs on an entire country based on a religious group dominant there.
I'd love to see change in Saudi-Arabia but they should do it all on their own and if they want to bomb eachother, that should also be their business.

lugie wrote:

I know that there are rumors Wahhabits are financing certain mosques in central europe ................................

Those aren't just "rumors", the Wahhabists have taken Sayyid Qutb's message, expanded it, amplified it and recreated it in living color and dolby sound and are selling it from Casablanca to Manila and everywhere in between. They continue to be in expansion phase. If one wants to fight a war on terror and do anything other than picking up dead bodies and winning gunfights it seems to me that diminishing the Wahhabist influence would be the place to start.

lugie wrote:

I'd love to see change in Saudi-Arabia but they should do it all on their own and if they want to bomb eachother, that should also be their business.

The problem there is that they are not doing it on their own and that the people in power (the Saud family) don't have the ability, clout or power to rein in the masses of their citizens. Also, the laws of economics indicate to us that the power of the Saud family is in decline, so if they start "bombing" each other, we are really in a pickle.

But I agree that putting western troops on Saudi soil to restore order is a non sequitur. Yet I don't see that doing nothing is likely to produce an acceptable outcome. Its time for a paradigm shift IMO.

FRAPORT released their June 2016 passenger numbers:
Antalya down 47.1% (and that is before the latest coup). January-June is down 30.1%.

http://www.fraport.de/content/fraport/d ... eutsch.pdf

A former NATO commander was behind it. http://rt.com/news/353126-campbell-nato ... m_campaign

winterlight wrote:

A former NATO commander was behind it. http://rt.com/news/353126-campbell-nato ... m_campaign

Is there a real news source for it or just one officially chartered by law to dish out Kremlin propaganda and a track record of made up stories, paying interview partners to make up eye witness reports and such?

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

winterlight wrote:

A former NATO commander was behind it. http://rt.com/news/353126-campbell-nato ... m_campaign

Is there a real news source for it or just one officially chartered by law to dish out Kremlin propaganda and a track record of made up stories, paying interview partners to make up eye witness reports and such?

best regards
Thomas

RT is no more biased than your average western newspaper, the only difference is the direction of bias.But I guess you like western propaganda more.

Dreadnought wrote:

Basically what we are seeing today is a purge - no different from Hitler, Stalin or Mao, just without so many firing squads.

I would be so sure about that, looks like Turkey will reintroduce the death sentance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tur ... ae97c2c058

pvjin wrote:

RT is no more biased than your average western newspaper, the only difference is the direction of bias.But I guess you like western propaganda more.

please name the western country that a) owns and pays for a media outlet that b) has been caught on numerous occasions to completely fabricate stories including paying people to play pretend being eyewitnesses.

best regards
Thomas

I always expected NATO to be behind it. The lack of respect for president Erdogan especially from the German government was too obvious.

The Annihilation starts...

http://www.dha.com.tr/cezaevinde-asili- ... 89833.html

Suspect conveniently hanged himself, denied proper burial. Normal modus operandi if you want to dehumanize a group.

Best regards
Thomas

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