Scorpio
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:52 am

L-188 wrote:
No he is demonstrating how stupid gun control laws are, they don't prevent this from happening.

No, he's demonstrating malice. He knows very well, as do you, that literally nobody besides you gun freaks has ever claimed that gun control is supposed to stop all kinds of gun crimes ever. He knows it's not (it's meant to make the number of gun crimes go down, which the numbers show works VERY well) and very consciously uses the argument here as a strawman argument.

As do you. You both show a very nasty, ugly side of yourselves by continuing to insist on using an argument you know very well is BS. It shows you have zero interest in anything even remotely resembling honest debate.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:12 am

Kiwirob wrote:
What happens in turkey isn't really relative to what has happened in Europe.


Not the attempted coup. I'm referring to the attack at Ataturk and the attacks in Ankara. Doing a small bit of research, it looks like Turkey is suffering quite a bit from terrorist attacks.

I don't differentiate between terrorist attacks. If someone kills or destroys with the intent to change policy or strike fear into a populace, they are a terrorist.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:53 am

PacificBeach88 wrote:
You're claiming "truthiness" as Steven Colbert famously introduced into our lexicon back in 2005/2006. "The quality of seeming or being felt to be true, even if not true". You feel you're more in danger and glibly dismissed the actual facts / chart. To soothe your gut feelings and emotional response you tried to claim yet another silly notion that somehow more money must be being spent now, therefore, the problem must be worse..


This is just a good example how statistics like that can be used for anything.
I'm all for objective reasoning and the more numbers and iformation I have, the better.

The only thing you deduct from that graph is the number of deaths caused by some definition of terrorism.
Not anything else.

For example, it doesn't tell you anything about
- threat level (how many are willing)
- fouled attacks (how many have been prevented)
- restriction of personal freedoms (what kind of society are we now living in because of the threat)
- who is targeted and how

you can add on to that list

Turn the EU-zone into a police state an the numbers might drop.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
Olddog
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:43 am

What is sad is despite that terrorism in Europe, americans kill each year more other americans than all the terrorism kill europeans....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Redd
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:38 am

A journalist friend of mine and I went out for some drinks recently and she brought out her buddy from an embassy here which represents a country very close to Saudi Arabia. After a few drinks we started discussing this terrorism scourge sweeping Europe and what to do about it.

The embassy 'worker' simply said that every act of Islamic terrorism is directly or indirectly connected to Saudi Arabia, all funding and religious extremists education coming through their charities. He said it's common knowledge with just about every higher lever government employee. He also went on to say that the human rights abuses that go on there make North Korea look like Sweden but that's a different topic.

I don't have much of an educated opinion on this myself aside from the info that this man gave over drinks. He said if Saudi Arabia were to go broke tomorrow, ISIS and every other terrorist organization would cease to operate soon, very soon.

Food for thought.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:40 am

Olddog wrote:
What is sad is despite that terrorism in Europe, americans kill each year more other americans than all the terrorism kill europeans....


That's not really surprising as Europeans kill much more other Europeans every year through regular homicides and murders than the amount killed by terrorism. At least for now.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:00 am

Scorpio wrote:
You both show a very nasty, ugly side of yourselves


That's rich, coming from you. Go back and take a look at your nasty replies to me, then take a long look in a mirror. See if you like who's looking back.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Scorpio
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:49 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
You both show a very nasty, ugly side of yourselves


That's rich, coming from you. Go back and take a look at your nasty replies to me, then take a long look in a mirror. See if you like who's looking back.

My 'nastiness' to you is how I honestly feel about many of your disingenuous posts.
Yours is that you're disingenuous.

I know which kind I prefer.

It's interesting how that is the only part of my replies to you here that you decided to respond to. Shows you knew you were using a BS argument, and that my 'nasty' reply was more than justified.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:01 am

From the current press conference: Two 13- and three 14-year-olds, one 17-, one 19-, one 20- and one 45-year-old, all from Munich. Unclear whether the perpetrator had a personal relation to any of them, or was acting out of hate for other ethnicities. Bodies were found at the McDonald's, in the street and the mall. Information that he hacked a Facebook account to lure victims into the restaurant with an advertizement for free meals are still being investigated.

Guy was a school student without a police record who had allegedly been treated for depression. No information yet whether he was under medication or drugs during the act, nor whether he was playing violent videogames. :rolleyes: No evidence of radicalism found in his home where he lived with his parents and a brother, but books about school shootings etc.; left no note.

Armed with a 9 mm Glock with serial number filed off and 300 rounds. No info yet how he got it; certainly not legally, since after some school shootings in the past, age for posession of big-bore handguns was raised to 21, and he had no weapons permit at all. Police fired at him at the parking garage but did not hit him. Found with a single point-blank gunshot wound to the left of his head, which matches him being left-handed.

His computer and social circle are currently being checked out. The parents are in no condition for questioning right now. There have been no arrests. 4,310 emergency calls were received between 1800 and 0000 hours yesterday, the usual for four days in Munich.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:29 pm

Scorpio wrote:
L-188 wrote:
No he is demonstrating how stupid gun control laws are, they don't prevent this from happening.

He knows very well, as do you, that literally nobody besides you gun freaks has ever claimed that gun control is supposed to stop all kinds of gun crimes ever. He knows it's not (it's meant to make the number of gun crimes go down, which the numbers show works VERY well) and very consciously uses the argument here as a strawman argument.

This.

A classic case of a reduction to absurdity argument ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum ).

The false statement is that a law can stop ALL illegal acts, when we all know they can't, but we have laws because they can stop MANY illegal acts. The proof of this is the very much lower overall handgun homicide rate in places where they have sensible gun control laws. And yes there are countless number of illegal guns in circulation in the USA. The only to change that is to have more uniform gun laws and to do sensible things like have gun buy-back programs.

IMHO it's in very bad taste for people like L-188 to use tragic events like this one to gloat about the lack of gun control in the USA.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Tugger
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:25 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Wow, you both don't understand laws


No, I understand them rather well. And, you're not wrong about them being an essential tool in a functioning society.

Not to get into a philosophical discussion, but it is my belief that if it simply a law that keeps you from doing something, then you are already corrupted, and you're just looking for the opportunity to break the law. Basically, Lewis' definition of integrity

Now, that's a very broad, very general overview of my position on the matter. If you'd like to discuss my position on laws and society...start a thread.

And that it basically my point, laws are a reflection of what people already want in society, of what they are willing to do/follow. This is of course a broad general definition as people will have varying positions but overall it applies. So I do not feel things are corrupted (in democratic societies) because the people created them for themselves.

The shooter and shooting in Germany is not a reflection on some failure of a law.

Tugg
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WIederling
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:25 am

".. laws are a reflection of what people already want in society, .."

Good observation. Good, well done laws codify details of what is perceived as just. A slow process prevents fashion of the day strong turnabouts.

How would you judge a society that is predominantly busy with sophist arguments why any select law has a meaning completely different to what the text says or why that law for similarly sophist reasoning does not apply to $person but to anyone else ( or just a targeted subset ) . :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:48 am

The NRA Gun Nuts who had been working themselves into a fury of Islamaphobic hate, now have yet another incident of a "lone wolf" (aka...unstable gun nut that jerked off using gun oil) syndrome. You can tell they are losing the argument given they are sucking their gun barrels in the corner, rocking to and fro, while robotically screaming "a good guy with a gun, stops a bad guy with a gun", as if they skipped their OCD meds of the day.

On a different note, I found this article to be interesting: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... s-20110316

It's about two kids who shipped millions of $$$ worth of crappy arms to Afghanistan because of the Bush Administration's horrible oversight and out-sourcing even the most basic acquisition of bullets. Two kids who had zero training, became one of the biggest arms dealer in the Iraq-Afghanistan circle jerk. Where's Dicky Cheney when you need someone shot in the face?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Arlington, Tx. Sports Bar CHP customer shoots gunman dead.

Thu May 04, 2017 4:34 am

Arlington police: Customer killed gunman, may have saved other lives

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local ... 99769.html

A gunman fatally shot an employee at an Arlington sports bar Wednesday evening before he was killed by an armed customer, police said.

Witnesses reported that a man arrived at the bar and walked up to a male employee, said Lt. Chris Cook, police spokesman. An altercation ensued, and the man pulled out a gun and shot the employee, killing him.

A customer who had a concealed handgun then approached the man and fatally shot him.

“By all accounts, he decided to engage the shooter because he wanted to prevent further loss of life,” Cook said. “If the shooter was going to do additional shooting, because he engaged the shooter there was no further loss of life.”

The customer who shot the gunman told police he has a concealed handgun license, Cook said.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
PanHAM
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 6:11 am

What does this have to do with Munich?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 8:14 am

PanHAM wrote:
What does this have to do with Munich?


Nothing, first I thought I missed another terrorist attack in Munich. But no, a shooting in a pub thousands of KM's away, in another country, on another continent and gathering from the post, not even a terrorist attack. Of course, the loss of life is a terrible thing, but why place it in a threat about terrorism?

“By all accounts, he decided to engage the shooter because he wanted to prevent further loss of life,” Cook said. “If the shooter was going to do additional shooting, because he engaged the shooter there was no further loss of life.” Except for the shooter......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 8:17 am

fr8mech wrote:
Not the attempted coup. I'm referring to the attack at Ataturk and the attacks in Ankara. Doing a small bit of research, it looks like Turkey is suffering quite a bit from terrorist attacks.


you do know that Ankara isn´t in Europe, right?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 8:23 am

I suggest this thread be locked. No point on discussing it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
PanHAM
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 8:49 am

The only similarity I can see here is, that Munich was not a Terrorist attack either. Just an idiot who had Problems with himself. What differs us from the USA is that we do not allow People to walk around with concealed weapons. If we did we would have much more idiotic shootings.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 8:55 am

PanHAM wrote:
The only similarity I can see here is, that Munich was not a Terrorist attack either. Just an idiot who had Problems with himself. What differs us from the USA is that we do not allow People to walk around with concealed weapons. If we did we would have much more idiotic shootings.


Ah yes, that was the idiot whom tried to get some money on the stock marked by setting off some bombs.
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PanHAM
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 9:23 am

No, that was more recently, you got that mixed up. He tried to make Money on attacking the bus with the Borussa Dortmund Team. Lucky enought, he not only failed but made so many mistakes that he could as well have invited a BILD Reporter to the scene. Let's be glad that idiots do such things and that includes real terrorists who kill in the Name of a Religion or a political idea, which is, under the line, the same any how. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 8:02 pm

PanHAM wrote:
What does this have to do with Munich?


It has to do with the larger issue of what happens when you allow citizens to legally get licensed to carry handguns, and, how a CHP person can save lives, vs. a populace being unarmed and waiting for the Police to arrive in minutes, when seconds count. Most gun violence attacks last only minutes, and then an army of cops arrive after the killing is done...

Or to put it more plainly, What If Munich had had CHP and a citizen could have shot dead the killer after the first victim was murdered??

I've read this thread, and half or more of the posts were about gun control, pro or con, so my post was just a relevant, or irrelevant as half of the posts already allowed in this thread....
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Dutchy
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Thu May 04, 2017 11:42 pm

Perhaps we can at least at a date to the title, so everyone knows that this was a long time ago
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zkojq
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Fri May 05, 2017 12:07 am

So after all the public shootings in the US (there seems to be a significant one every few days) it took nine months for one to happen where an armed 'good guy' was able to save the day?
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Fri May 05, 2017 12:46 am

zkojq wrote:
So after all the public shootings in the US (there seems to be a significant one every few days) it took nine months for one to happen where an armed 'good guy' was able to save the day?


Well, things will get better when more people are licensed to carry. It's a state issue, so states that highly restrict if or where you can conceal carry will not get the benefit as much. Here in Texas, you can now conceal carry on campus. Can't speak for Virginia, California, or other states...
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Aesma
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Fri May 05, 2017 2:33 am

If by better you mean more and more and more gun death per capita, then yes it will be better.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PanHAM
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Fri May 05, 2017 7:05 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
What does this have to do with Munich?


It has to do with the larger issue of what happens when you allow citizens to legally get licensed to carry handguns, and, how a CHP person can save lives, vs. a populace being unarmed and waiting for the Police to arrive in minutes, when seconds count. Most gun violence attacks last only minutes, and then an army of cops arrive after the killing is done...

Or to put it more plainly, What If Munich had had CHP and a citizen could have shot dead the killer after the first victim was murdered??

I've read this thread, and half or more of the posts were about gun control, pro or con, so my post was just a relevant, or irrelevant as half of the posts already allowed in this thread....


Simple answer, we would have hundreds of Shootings with thousands dead victims every year. The number pf weapon licences have increased but the use is very much restricted to self defense and not to shoot others to "protect". . The protection of citizens is restricted to law enforcement who have a monopoly on the use of force. Germany fares pretty well with that and the Police are much friendlier and you can argue with them without getting shot or arrested.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
olle
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Re: Breaking : Terror attack on shopping Centre in Munich , Germany

Fri May 05, 2017 7:13 am

Even with millions of refugees ISIS and other terror groups have in many ways lost.

They are very much lost their competence to plan attacks and falls back on making crazy guys mostly without backup making attacks like the ones happening the last two years.

The Attack in Paris and Brussels wil probably be very complicated to recreate again.

Peopel eith different psycological problems is sadly enough very complicated to avoid but that is a fact all over the world, and I compare very much with school shootings in USA as example.

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