Kiwirob
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84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:32 pm

And people say immigration and helping people is a good thing.

Two men slit the 84 year old priests throat during mass. Sickening.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785
 
910A
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:16 pm

What a cowardly act by two thugs. Didn't take long for the right wing in the United States to infer that President Obama, former SOS Clinton are responsible.
http://ijr.com/2016/07/658682-86-year-o ... =ijamerica
 
wolbo
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:31 pm

Immigration and helping people is a good thing.
 
mham001
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:32 pm

910A wrote:
What a cowardly act by two thugs. Didn't take long for the right wing in the United States to infer that President Obama, former SOS Clinton are responsible.
http://ijr.com/2016/07/658682-86-year-o ... =ijamerica


I don't know and will never understand why some place so much importance on effing tweets. Dumb.

But, since you want to bring US politics into another Euro tragedy, do you know they were not Libyan?
 
jetwet1
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:42 am

And, I have to wonder how many of these are pure copy cat idiots, no connection to the actualy ISIS, but kids sitting at home looking for their 5 minutes of fame.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:48 am

wolbo wrote:
Immigration and helping people is a good thing.


But unrestrained and/or illegal immigration are not.

jetwet1 wrote:
And, I have to wonder how many of these are pure copy cat idiots, no connection to the actualy ISIS, but kids sitting at home looking for their 5 minutes of fame.


Doesn't seem to be the case here. One of these guys was known to the anti-terror folks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/world ... ttack.html
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HGL
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:08 am

Kiwirob wrote:
And people say immigration and helping people is a good thing.

Well as an immigrant to Norway and the descendent of immigrants to New Zealand you would be the best person to know. What does your wife say to having an immigrant as a husband and what do your children think of having an immigrant as a father? Have you ever been questioned by the police for an alleged offence? If the answer is yes, does that prove that all immigrants are criminal suspects? If the answer is no, should we conclude that so far you managed not to attract their attention?

Most immigrants (possibly including yourself ;) ) are decent, law abiding citizens. Unfortunately others, for whatever reason, are not. This latest act of violence is sickening and can in no way be justified. But it is a far stretch to conclude that immigration and helping people in times of trouble is bad.

It is understandable that there be calls for controlled migration and greater efforts made at integration. It is also reasonable that governments and security forces work with immigrant communities to identify potential offenders. But a blanket accusation against all migrants and/ or refugees helps no one, particularly when one sees that in many instances offenders have been born within the country where they committed a crime.
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:58 am

There's a big difference between an immigrant from a civilized country like me and someone from some less civilized places.
 
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HGL
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:23 am

Kiwirob wrote:
There's a big difference between an immigrant from a civilized country like me and someone from some less civilized places.
You'd certainly hope so, but after the diversion of a Jetstar flight last week as a result of a violent brawl among Kiwi passengers, you sometimes wonder.

Of course there is a big difference between a bunch of drunken bums brawling in an aircraft and the calculated murder of an elderly man in a church. But I still wouldn't conclude that all Kiwi's can't hold their liquor and don't know how to conduct themselves in a civilised manner. I haven't rushed to call for all citizens of New Zealand being banned entry to Australia as a result, although Qantas has banned the individuals concerned from Qantas and Jetstar flights.
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:46 am

one kiwi and 5 aussies, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. The kiwi on the flight will pay the price he will be expelled from Australia, I have no doubts about that, the problem in Europe is trouble makers aren't returned to where they came from.

That said the number of times a kiwi has murdered a person in Europe in the past 18 months is as far as I can tell zip, the number of times a refugee from North Africa or the Middle East has killed someone is pretty high, the body count is in the hundreds. This grand experiment of Merkels has been a failure, there's a lot of blood on her hands, I hope she can't sleep at night.
 
liza1079
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:52 am

That is brutal and inhuman activity.
R.I.P.
 
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HGL
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:33 am

Kiwirob wrote:
, the problem in Europe is trouble makers aren't returned to where they came from.

It is a bit difficult when the perpetrators are sometimes native born. I mean, how exactly do you send someone who was born in France back to France? The most serious attacks have not been carried out by refugees but by native-born citizens. Cherif Kouachi, Said Kouachi, Amedy Coulibaly and Hayat Boumeddiene were all born in France. Of the Brussels airport bombers, Osama Krayem would have had to be sent back to Seweden, where he was born. Khālid al-Bakrāwī was Belgian, as were Mohamed Abrini and Ibrahim El Bakraoui. Only Najm al-‘Ashrāwī was born outside of Europe, in Morocco. In the recent Nice truck shooting, the perpetrator was from Tunisia though he had lived in France for more than ten years.

In Germany, if I am not mistaken, there have been 5 instances of armed violence by Muslims in the past year, resulting in 14 deaths - 9 in the recent München attack and one in a separate incident were indiscriminate targets. The other four were the perpetrators. It is significant that the deaths in Germany did not commence until after numerous arson attacks on refugee shelters, of which there were 75 during 2015. This does not justify by any means the attacks that resulted in deaths but it does show that "civilised" people might not be as "civilised" as they sometimes like to pretend.
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:44 am

HGL wrote:
9 in the recent München attack and one in a separate incident were indiscriminate targets.


And that one was a fan of the right wing, anti-Islam Party AfD, hated türkisch people, didn´t like that Germany was being "overrun" by Muslims... he is on video insisting he is German because he is born here.

So, technically you have 4 incidents with 5 dead "for" the Islamists and 75 cases of arson with and one incident with 9 dead "for" the Anti-Islamists.

best regards
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Kiwirob
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:27 am

If we can't send them back the only realistic answer is to execute them. We don't need them or there politics here, taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for them in prison.
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:30 am

Kiwirob wrote:
If we can't send them back the only realistic answer is to execute them..


No. That is the crimes against humanity answer. The only realistic answer is locking them up.

best regards
Thomas
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Aesma
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:41 am

The perpetrators were wearing fake explosives so they wanted to be shot.

One has been identified and was known for he tried to go to Syria twice. That has been made illegal in France (I suspect it isn't illegal in the US, for example) so he was awaiting trial, but was released with an ankle monitor.
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Kiwirob
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
If we can't send them back the only realistic answer is to execute them..


No. That is the crimes against humanity answer. The only realistic answer is locking them up.

best regards
Thomas


Locking them up is a crime against the taxpayer, it also means there is a chance they can get out, permanent removal of the problem is the best solution. You hurt us, you plan to hurt us, we execute you, these people don't care about your namby pamby human rights so why should we care about there’s?

Human rights is just some feel good bullshit that came into fruition after WW2, they are arbitrary and mean nothing. Govts don't care about breaking them when they need to, they are about as useful as the paper they are written on.
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:34 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Locking them up is a crime against the taxpayer,


By the very nature of taxes they are not. It if was a crime against the tax payer, you´d have to sue your government.

it also means there is a chance they can get out, permanent removal of the problem is the best solution.


Not giving them a chance to be released at all and ever is a violation of their human rights. Violating those puts us on their level.

You hurt us, you plan to hurt us, we execute you, these people don't care about your namby pamby human rights so why should we care about there’s?


What have their family and friends exactly done to justify having their father, son, mother, daughter,..., ....., .... taken away for good? If you execute them, they are dead. They don´t care. They only ones that may suffer, are innocent.

Human rights is just some feel good bullshit that came into fruition after WW2, they are arbitrary and mean nothing. Govts don't care about breaking them when they need to, they are about as useful as the paper they are written on.


Well, i would prefer to imprison those governments, but i guess for that dream to come true, we have to wait for the likes of you to finally die out.

Best regards
Thomas
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winterlight
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:43 pm

Pope says recent attacks are "nothing to do with religion"

That's alright then.
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tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:08 pm

winterlight wrote:
Pope says recent attacks are "nothing to do with religion"


Well, by pope standards he may be a pretty good pope, but he is still religious, so we know his grip on reality is somewhat lacking....

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Thomas
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Flighty
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:40 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
If we can't send them back the only realistic answer is to execute them..

Human rights is just some feel good bullshit that came into fruition after WW2, they are arbitrary and mean nothing.


Citizen rights.

Enemy combatants just get shot and their families rounded up and interrogated. Citizens have rights. Legal guests have some rights. Enemies and terrorists have the right to be shot. This was known in WWII and is still true. You see the enemy, you press the trigger and make sure they aren't still moving.
 
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:50 pm

winterlight wrote:
Pope says recent attacks are "nothing to do with religion"

That's alright then.


Totally agree with the Pope. This is nothing more than thugs with weapons. The correct response is do scientifically disarm and neutralize the thugs. Killing them afterwards and, ideally, preventing these crimes by preventing some, or perhaps all, young men from possessing weapons.
 
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pvjin
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:54 pm

Totally agree with the Pope. This is nothing more than thugs with weapons. The correct response is do scientifically disarm and neutralize the thugs. Killing them afterwards and, ideally, preventing these crimes by preventing some, or perhaps all, young men from possessing weapons.


Good luck with making it impossible for young men to get kitchen knives. Of course they shouldn't be allowed to drive a truck either.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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fr8mech
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:43 am

Aesma wrote:
That has been made illegal in France (I suspect it isn't illegal in the US,

Depends on if it can be proved what the reason for the trip is. Of course, there is no direct path from here to there.

Aesma wrote:
so he was awaiting trial, but was released with an ankle monitor.

Well, that worked out ok, didn't it?

tommy1808 wrote:
That is the crimes against humanity

As I've stated before, they ceded their human rights when they ceased acting like humans.

tommy1808 wrote:
Not giving them a chance to be released at all and ever is a violation of their human rights. Violating those puts us on their level.

So, your answer is to incarcerate them, attempt to rehabilitate them and eventually release them back into society? To kill again?

Flighty wrote:
preventing these crimes by preventing some, or perhaps all, young men from possessing weapons.

I suspect it's not just young men. And, if you haven't been paying attention, when there is hate, there will be a way. Removing the weapons, any weapons, will just make them (the assholes) more creative in killing. But, they will continue to kill.

By the way, what criteria would you use to decide which young men would be deprived of which weapons?

Flighty wrote:
scientifically disarm

That's an interesting phrase. Please expand.

winterlight wrote:
Pope says recent attacks are "nothing to do with religion"


Well, he would be wrong. Not the first time.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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WarRI1
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:04 am

So, your answer is to incarcerate them, attempt to rehabilitate them and eventually release them back into society? To kill again?

They passed the death sentence, so they should expect the same, without exception.


As I've stated before, they ceded their human rights when they ceased acting like humans.

Kill them, It is justice and I cannot in my wildest dreams think that any Virgins await them as a reward. Totally insane belief.
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Kiwirob
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:26 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Not giving them a chance to be released at all and ever is a violation of their human rights. Violating those puts us on their level.


So you'd be happy to see someone like Andres Brevik back out on the streets again?

You commit a terrorist act which results in people being hurt or dead then that's you time on earth over. Putting there human rights over our right to exist is nuts.

tommy1808 wrote:
What have their family and friends exactly done to justify having their father, son, mother, daughter,..., ....., .... taken away for good? If you execute them, they are dead. They don´t care. They only ones that may suffer, are innocent.


Best regards
Thomas


People like you are sickening, these people are not good guys, they can't be rehabilitated, they don't care about us, our culture and way of life, yet it's apologists like you who make it easy for them to hurt us. We need to bring on the pain, you screw with us and you're done.
 
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HGL
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:52 am

Kiwirob wrote:
People like you are sickening, these people are not good guys, they can't be rehabilitated, they don't care about us, our culture and way of life,

Breivik is very much the product of "our culture". His manifesto, as turgid and ridiculous as it is, simply borrows from what many commentators have been saying for decades. They provided the theoretical underpinning, he provided the practical application. Naturally, those of us who were accused of being "sickening" were lambasted for trying to stifle freedom of speech, for supporting political correctness. When Breivik took all these respectable manufacturers of the "word" and carried out the "deed" they all took flight and sought to distance themselves from what they themselves had written.

The sad thing is, after a few years it has all been forgotten and all the hatred that they preached is being preached once more. Remember, even before the recent terrorist attacks, there were those in this forum calling for boats to be sunk and the occupants shot in the water. The only real complaint that seems to levelled against Breivik is not at his actions but at his targets.
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:07 am

Flighty wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Human rights is just some feel good bullshit that came into fruition after WW2, they are arbitrary and mean nothing.


Citizen rights.


well, i didn´t say the things you are quoting me saying.... Kiwi did.

Enemy combatants just get shot and their families rounded up and interrogated.


Enemy combatants have rights too.

Enemies and terrorists have the right to be shot. This was known in WWII and is still true. You see the enemy, you press the trigger and make sure they aren't still moving.


Terrorists are criminals. Hence they have the right to due process of law. Regardless of the bullshit US legal advisers have come up with, you don´t need to wear a uniform to be a soldier with all the protections awarded to those. If you are not a soldier, you are a criminal and we are back to the start.
Your thinking is exactly the thinking of those terrorists, they are our enemies, we can just kill them.

Flighty wrote:
Totally agree with the Pope. This is nothing more than thugs with weapons.


that think that go to heaven and get 72 Virgins if they blow you up with themselves. Or go to heaven when they shot fags, or abortion doctors. This kind of terrorism is just the fringe of religious communities, and the only way to get rid of that fringe is to get rid of religion alltogether. Religion is the entry drug, none of them woke up one day and suddenly was an religious extremist without being religious first. Religion is the tobacco of religious motivated/justified terrorism.

fr8mech wrote:
As I've stated before, they ceded their human rights when they ceased acting like humans.


A statement isn´t made right by repeating it, no matter how often you do it. The whole point of the concept "human rights" is that you can not cease, lose or even give them up.
You voted the government into office that send the troops that dropped the bomb on his cousins wedding, by doing so you ceased your human rights and they have ample justification to kill you, and every other voter and taxpayer. That door swings two ways, and i am always amazed how much alike a bunch of terrorists many people think. They can justify their actions using exactly the same argument you do.

tommy1808 wrote:
Not giving them a chance to be released at all and ever is a violation of their human rights. Violating those puts us on their level.

So, your answer is to incarcerate them, attempt to rehabilitate them and eventually release them back into society? To kill again?


In every criminals life there comes a point where he is incapable of repeating his crime. And 88 year old in a wheelchair won´t be running through trains with an ax anymore. There is also a point in his life where him repeating his crime, older people are less likely to commit violent crimes thank young ones, is statistically less likely than that a young, law abiding citizen will commit a violent crime in his future. Logically you can not hold anyone imprisoned beyond that point, without also locking up every young person. Effectively you´d be punishing people for crimes they may commit in the future, and if there is a slippery slope, that is one.
I do know that you still believe in the outdated notion of "punishment" for crimes, like many of your fellow Americans, but i am fairly sure that is one of the main reasons why your prisons are crime breeders, your recidivism rate is probably even higher than telling them "Don´t do it again" and just sending them home for many criminals, while legal systems working on the assumption of preventing future crime instead of punishing for past ones show recidivism rates that are drastically lower, despite imprisoning far less people in the first place. So, despite of what you think, we can be reasonable certain that your policies lead to more crime, more victims and more pain.

best regards
Thomas
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fr8mech
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Terrorists are criminals.

No, they are not. They are waging war. This is where we lose any advantage we may have. We treat it like a criminal act, while they treat it like a war. And, they use that treatment to their advantage.

tommy1808 wrote:
concept

That's right, it's a concept. An abstract idea. A thought.

tommy1808 wrote:
you can not cease, lose or even give them up.

In your opinion.

tommy1808 wrote:
by doing so you ceased your human rights and they have ample justification to kill you, and every other voter and taxpayer.

I'm ok with that. We are at war with these animals. If they can bring it to our shores, they will. And, they would be justified in doing so, under the rules of war.

tommy1808 wrote:
Logically you can not hold anyone imprisoned beyond that point,

Sure you can. You can hold them until they die. Many of these people are threats simply by existing. They would be lauded as heroes if they were returned home and used as a rallying point.

tommy1808 wrote:
Effectively you´d be punishing people for crimes they may commit in the future,

No, you are preventing them from committing crimes, or further acts of war, as the case may be.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:58 am

fr8mech wrote:
No, they are not. They are waging war. This is where we lose any advantage we may have. We treat it like a criminal act, while they treat it like a war. And, they use that treatment to their advantage.


Well, in that case they are soldiers, if captured they are POWs, with all the rights attached to it, and you have to send them over once the war is over. And treat them reasonable well in the mean time.
There is no magical middle, they are either or.

That's right, it's a concept. An abstract idea. A thought.


Well, your "right" not to be blown up by a terroris, or for that matter to be slaughtered, cooked and eaten, is just a concept as well.

In your opinion.


backed up by a couple of hundred years of philosophy and undeniable progress. Your opinion is the same the terrorists have.

I'm ok with that. We are at war with these animals. If they can bring it to our shores, they will. And, they would be justified in doing so, under the rules of war.


So, how many letters did you write to demand treatment of them under the Geneva convention. Animals... nice, are you a full on Nazi or do you just pick the parts of inhuman fascism you like especially well?

Sure you can. You can hold them until they die. Many of these people are threats simply by existing. They would be lauded as heroes if they were returned home and used as a rallying point.


Again, 100% pure terrorist thinking

No, you are preventing them from committing crimes, or further acts of war, as the case may be.


By that argument we could and should have to imprison everyone, because as i said, there is a point where an old enough terrorist is less likely to commit another crime than you are, and you could be imprisoned with mathematically exactly the same reasoning.

best regards
Thomas
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fr8mech
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, in that case they are soldiers, if captured they are POWs, with all the rights attached to it, and you have to send them over once the war is over. And treat them reasonable well in the mean time.

I agree. They should be interred in POW camps, interrogated by military intelligence folks and repatriated after the war is over. Of course, there is the pesky little problem that this is a war without borders or true definition.

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, your "right" not to be blown up by a terroris, or for that matter to be slaughtered, cooked and eaten, is just a concept as well.

I've never claimed such a right. I have an expectation that I won't be blown up by a terrorist, but no such right.

tommy1808 wrote:
Animals... nice, are you a full on Nazi or do you just pick the parts of inhuman fascism you like especially well?

A little early for Godwin's Law, no? ;)

Act like an animal and you should be treated like an animal.
tommy1808 wrote:
Again, 100% pure terrorist thinking

No, that's how you keep evil people, or animals, away from potential victims.

tommy1808 wrote:
By that argument we could and should have to imprison everyone,

"Everyone" has not shown themselves to be dangerous by committing terrorist acts, have they?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:46 am

fr8mech wrote:
I agree. They should be interred in POW camps, interrogated by military intelligence folks and repatriated after the war is over. Of course, there is the pesky little problem that this is a war without borders or true definition.


Not really a problem, wouldn´t be the first time a terror organisation made peace with the governments. But it is good to see that you are reasonable about it.

I've never claimed such a right. I have an expectation that I won't be blown up by a terrorist, but no such right.


Well, if you don´t have any right not to be killed, why all the fuzz?

A little early for Godwin's Law, no? ;)


Ah, never to early, better lets get that stage behind us as fast as possible, if only to proof that it doesn´t end discussions and therefore is in fact wrong ;-)

Act like an animal and you should be treated like an animal.


Well, we are animals and we have no other choice but to act like an animal. I know that is not what you are referring to, but the chances of us really making conscious choices in what we do is pretty little by now.

No, that's how you keep evil people, or animals, away from potential victims.


nah, same evil, different version.

"Everyone" has not shown themselves to be dangerous by committing terrorist acts, have they?


No, but then few terrorists have ever shows to commit a 2nd terror strike, so there probably isn´t much difference in the chances, especially if we are talking about an 88 year old terrorist in a wheelchair compared with some opinionated teenager.
One could also argue that only someone that did commit a terror strike can regret and change his ways. Unfortunately there are no studies on recidivism rate on terrorists, at least none i can find, for other places than Gitmo, and i find it hard to argue that those are recidivism rates at all, since the original involvement has never been proven to be guilty of anything in the first place. I am rather surprised how low they are even there, after all the imprisonment, torture and other mistreatment i am fairly surprised that not close to 100% are out for blood after their release.

best regards
Thomas
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Aesma
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:17 am

I don't think that how we deal with people that have committed terror attacks is the most urgent topic. Most are dead, the rest are in jail for years to come.

The difficult problem is how to deal with people that have not committed anything yet, but that we suspect of wanting to.

Several right wing and far right French politicians are proposing a French Guantanamo (without ever suggesting where it would be, on foreign soil too ?), or to just "intern suspects" without more precision.

Of course this is unconstitutional, goes against the European charter, and against the Declaration of Human Rights (originally a document written by the French revolutionaries, so a big deal here).

There is a proposal going through our legislative process for making it a felony to "consult habitually" terrorist websites, punishable by two years in jail.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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fr8mech
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:33 am

tommy1808 wrote:
But it is good to see that you are reasonable about it.

I am nothing, if not reasonable.

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, if you don´t have any right not to be killed, why all the fuzz?

Not sure what you're getting at here. Do you feel because I don't have a right to not be killed by a terrorist (or any other manner) I should not try to avoid that from happening? Should I not be outraged when it happens to others?

tommy1808 wrote:
I know that is not what you are referring to, but the chances of us really making conscious choices in what we do is pretty little by now.

So, in sum, you're saying we are animals and should act like animals? Survival of the fittest? Only the strong? Our actions are dictated by the jungle?
I reject that.

tommy1808 wrote:
nah, same evil, different version.

You prefer that violent people remain in prison, within the bounds of the law, so that they can be isolated from civilized, such as it is, society.

tommy1808 wrote:
88 year old terrorist

Is still a terrorist. How old was the blind sheik?

tommy1808 wrote:
since the original involvement has never been proven to be guilty of anything in the first place.

Don't have to prove anything if they're picked up on the battleground. I really wish our government treated those folks more like POW's and less like criminals.

Aesma wrote:
The difficult problem is how to deal with people that have not committed anything yet, but that we suspect of wanting to.

Good point.

Aesma wrote:
There is a proposal going through our legislative process for making it a felony to "consult habitually" terrorist websites, punishable by two years in jail.

Gosh, I have a problem with that.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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Kiwirob
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:53 am

[quote="tommy1808"]

In every criminals life there comes a point where he is incapable of repeating his crime. And 88 year old in a wheelchair won´t be running through trains with an ax anymore. There is also a point in his life where him repeating his crime, older people are less likely to commit violent crimes thank young ones, is statistically less likely than that a young, law abiding citizen will commit a violent crime in his future. Logically you can not hold anyone imprisoned beyond that point, without also locking up every young person. Effectively you´d be punishing people for crimes they may commit in the future, and if there is a slippery slope, that is one.

But an 18-40 year old imprisioned for the same offence for 20 years is going to be able to commit ther same offence again at 38-60, and the 88 year old is able to preach his hate to the next generations. So the easy answer is to execute them.
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:38 am

fr8mech wrote:
I am nothing, if not reasonable.


Hence you are much more fun to discuss with....

Not sure what you're getting at here. Do you feel because I don't have a right to not be killed by a terrorist (or any other manner) I should not try to avoid that from happening? Should I not be outraged when it happens to others?


you said "I've never claimed such a right. I have an expectation that I won't be blown up by a terrorist, but no such right.".

If you don´t have the right not to be blown up (=to be alive), why all the fuzz.
I think we should be outraged for each and every death that isn´t absolutely unavoidable.

So, in sum, you're saying we are animals and should act like animals? Survival of the fittest? Only the strong? Our actions are dictated by the jungle?
I reject that.


No, i am saying that we are animals and we do act like animals. Always. You haven´t lived a single moment of your life doing anything else than acting like an animal. We have no more capacity to act counter our instincts than an ant or elephant. We just have a much more complex behavior model than most other animal species and a frankly quite convincing illusion of conscious decision making.
Even this civilized discussion is just us acting like animals.

You prefer that violent people remain in prison, within the bounds of the law, so that they can be isolated from civilized, such as it is, society.


Well, i´d prefer if we could take the violence out of those people, but since we can´t, imprisonment is the least intrusive option we have, at least if the system is effective.

Is still a terrorist. How old was the blind sheik?


Well, obviously there is no one fits all point to release a terrorist, and some may even need imprisonment until the rest of their lives, but that can not be determined decades in advance.

Don't have to prove anything if they're picked up on the battleground.


well, you should be reasonable sure that they don´t just happen to be where the battle happens. I remember fondly the human right activist imprisoned in Guantanamo for years, because he was picked up in the wrong place - while he was trying to help people get away from the Taliban....

I really wish our government treated those folks more like POW's and less like criminals.


Yup. And since that torture camp had such a tremendous PR value for AQ and alike, i am pretty sure that policy cost quite some lives.

Aesma wrote:
There is a proposal going through our legislative process for making it a felony to "consult habitually" terrorist websites, punishable by two years in jail.

Gosh, I have a problem with that.[/quote]

I have the feeling, if passed, it won´t pass scrutiny with the courts.They could take down the servers very fast, Phishing websites disappear in no longer than 4 hours from the web, somehow for Childporn and terror websites it takes a heck longer. Apparently there are no technical reasons for that.
But i am sure that is a law Erdogan would love to copy....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:40 am

Kiwirob wrote:
So the easy answer is to execute them.


making him a martyr and doing the "preach his hate to the next generations" for him. Brilliant move Watson. I guess you haven´t noticed how much more external terrorism we have since the gloves came off.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
lewis
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:41 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
The whole point of the concept "human rights" is that you can not cease, lose or even give them up.


It is weird how you think human rights cannot be ceased or given up. What do you think will happen if a certain ideology/religion/way of thinking that does not believe in your silly human rights becomes a majority in your country - or any country for that matter. Things like human rights and constitutions are worth as much as the paper they are written on if the majority of the population does not agree with them.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:11 am

tommy1808 wrote:
I think we should be outraged for each and every death that isn´t absolutely unavoidable.


Agreed. But, we should not shy away from taking a life when it's necessary and/or unavoidable.

tommy1808 wrote:
We have no more capacity to act counter our instincts than an ant or elephant.


Except, that we are reasoning and rationale being that have developed a sense of morality. That allows us to run counter to our instincts and our evolution.

tommy1808 wrote:
well, you should be reasonable sure that they don´t just happen to be where the battle happens. I remember fondly the human right activist imprisoned in Guantanamo for years, because he was picked up in the wrong place - while he was trying to help people get away from the Taliban....


See, that is one of the little problems when your enemy doesn't wear a uniform; anyone on the battlefield may well be the enemy.

tommy1808 wrote:
making him a martyr

Do you know what ever single martyr has in common with every other martyr? He is dead and no longer a direct threat. Oh, the martyr may become a focal point, a rallying cry, a cause; but that really is no different than that same person sitting in a cell. Except, that he (or she) is dead.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11258
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:22 am

fr8mech wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I think we should be outraged for each and every death that isn´t absolutely unavoidable.


Agreed. But, we should not shy away from taking a life when it's necessary and/or unavoidable.


That is true, can´t save everyone and kindness ain´t bulletproof.

Except, that we are reasoning and rationale being that have developed a sense of morality.


That just depends on your definition of morals, but the social animals show a lot of behavior similarities to us.

That allows us to run counter to our instincts and our evolution.


Nothing we do ever runs against our evolution and our instincts just follow more complex patterns than in other animals, if even that. It may just be that, since we "think" in our patterns, we have a hard time recognizing that we follow instinctual patterns just as much as any other animal. Current neuroscience indicates pretty strongly that you have a "free will" only in the sense that no one coerced you to do something, not in the sense that you could have made a different decision.
If you ever read a book about birds courtship behavior and are not astonished by how very much alike they are to ours, you´d be the first.

See, that is one of the little problems when your enemy doesn't wear a uniform; anyone on the battlefield may well be the enemy.


Very true, and that is the main goal of them, isn´t it? Getting us to kill, imprison and torture enough innocent people to make sure they have a steady, ever increasing flow of new recruits. And more importantly those that have a reason to hate us that even we can agree with. We are playing the game by their rules, and we have to figure a way to stop doing that.

And in the particular case i mentioned, the 9/11 committee report has lots of nice things to say about him. How he ran an AQ training camp, was their no. 3 man, knew OBL, deeply involved into the 9/11 plannings and what not. All bullshit. The level of failure was astronomical.

Do you know what ever single martyr has in common with every other martyr? He is dead and no longer a direct threat. Oh, the martyr may become a focal point, a rallying cry, a cause; but that really is no different than that same person sitting in a cell. Except, that he (or she) is dead.


He is also no direct threat in a cell, where he is however a source of information. Killing them is destroying an asset in the fight, not a help.

lewis wrote:
It is weird how you think human rights cannot be ceased or given up. What do you think will happen if a certain ideology/religion/way of thinking that does not believe in your silly human rights becomes a majority in your country - or any country for that matter. Things like human rights and constitutions are worth as much as the paper they are written on if the majority of the population does not agree with them.


If we can´t win true to our ideals, our ideals don´t deserve to win.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:30 am

tommy1808 wrote:
I have the feeling, if passed, it won´t pass scrutiny with the courts.They could take down the servers very fast, Phishing websites disappear in no longer than 4 hours from the web, somehow for Childporn and terror websites it takes a heck longer. Apparently there are no technical reasons for that.
But i am sure that is a law Erdogan would love to copy....

best regards
Thomas


Some of those sites are used as honey pots. Which in itself isn't really legal in France (no police officers offering drugs or sex either), but at the moment the idea is to find other proof of criminal/terrorist activity, not to indict on the website consulting charge.

If the law is passed, then the opposite could be done : strong suspicions that someone is dangerous, but no other proof than the website consulting => use that to put them behind bars.

I guess if both strategies are used at the same time the accused would have a strong case at the European Court of Human Rights.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:04 am

Aesma wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I have the feeling, if passed, it won´t pass scrutiny with the courts.They could take down the servers very fast, Phishing websites disappear in no longer than 4 hours from the web, somehow for Childporn and terror websites it takes a heck longer. Apparently there are no technical reasons for that.
But i am sure that is a law Erdogan would love to copy....

best regards
Thomas


Some of those sites are used as honey pots. Which in itself isn't really legal in France (no police officers offering drugs or sex either), but at the moment the idea is to find other proof of criminal/terrorist activity, not to indict on the website consulting charge.


And i think it is an excellent tool to gather intelligence as well.

I guess if both strategies are used at the same time the accused would have a strong case at the European Court of Human Rights.


Don´t think so. Hard to make a case to justify how someone should be punished for something he has no way finding out if it is illegal or not, and asking people to stay away from any website that *may* be considered a terrorist website. I guess the court made pretty clear in its data retention rulings that they won´t accept any concept that leads to selfcensorship and makes people scared of seeking out information. Unless they provide an always updated list of those websites, it is about as dead as Napoleon.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:36 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
as i said, there is a point where an old enough terrorist is less likely to commit another crime than you are


This isn't the case of Kristian Klar, is it? He was released by activist judges at the age of 56 even thought he served just a bare minimum of 26 years for 9 murderers and 11 attempted murders and never showed any remorse for what he did.
 
Kiwirob
Topic Author
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:47 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
[

If we can´t win true to our ideals, our ideals don´t deserve to win.

best regards
Thomas


With attitudes like that it's no wonder Europe is having a hard time of it. We need to be ruthless in our pursuit of these people, the need to be hunted down and locked up or killed before they can act.
 
Kiwirob
Topic Author
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:51 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
as i said, there is a point where an old enough terrorist is less likely to commit another crime than you are


This isn't the case of Kristian Klar, is it? He was released by activist judges at the age of 56 even thought he served just a bare minimum of 26 years for 9 murderers and 11 attempted murders and never showed any remorse for what he did.


Just read up on this a.hole, if ever there was a person who the state should have executed this is the guy. 26 years for what he did is not long enough, or really its too long because he should have been executed for his crimes. .
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:04 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
This isn't the case of Kristian Klar, is it?


No, but Christian Klar is a good example.The RAF ain´t no more, he is considered no risk. Any murderer that is considered a "no risk" has to be released after serving out his minimum sentence.

He was released by activist judges at the age of 56 even thought he served just a bare minimum of 26 years for 9 murderers and 11 attempted murders and never showed any remorse for what he did.


Well, for one, he wasn´t released by "Activist judges", he was released by the highest state court and any form of "activist" judge, left or right, doesn´t make it so far. If anyone had a real problem with the decision, they could have taking it to a higher court. They didn´t.
He was released, because he qualified under the rules to be released. The government can be fairly happy that they haven´t been sued, since a bunch of state employees broke the law to keep him from being released on parole.

a bare minimum of 26 years


The average time served for a murderer with his ruling ("besondere schwere der Schuld" - ~special gravity of guilt) is 23 to 25 years, so he already served longer than the average inmate with the same ruling.
And he served a total of 34 years and 33 days, not "a bare minimum of 26 years".

and never showed any remorse for what he did.


he did, even in writing. You could say "not enough", and perhaps you are right, but that doesn´t make your statement less wrong.

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Thomas
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Kiwirob
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:58 pm

The average murderer doesn't murder 9 people and attempt to kill 11 others. 34 years are not long enough.
 
tommy1808
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The average murderer doesn't murder 9 people and attempt to kill 11 others. 34 years are not long enough.


That is why I didn't say "average murderer", but "murderer with the same ruling" aka guilt.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LSZH34
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:00 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
[

If we can´t win true to our ideals, our ideals don´t deserve to win.

best regards
Thomas


With attitudes like that it's no wonder Europe is having a hard time of it. We need to be ruthless in our pursuit of these people, the need to be hunted down and locked up or killed before they can act.


Spot on. It's no surprise people like tommy are left alone to defend UNforgivable acts of violence committed by lunatics.
 
Kiwirob
Topic Author
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Re: 84 year old priest murdered during mass!

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:21 pm

People like Tommy don't have any compassion for the victims and their family but get all upset about the criminals rights, as if they are entitled to any.

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