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n229nw
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Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:49 am

With all these recent mass murder events, there have been many overlapping factors that are discussed to death. Some have been politically motivated (by people proclaiming their allegiance to ISIS, or the far right, etc.), some have been facilitated by access to assault weapons and other guns. Personally I think gun control is extremely important, but I don't want to get into a debate about that here. All these factors have been beaten to death and I am sure we will keep beating them elsewhere. Many of the recent attacks, however, have been ambiguous in many ways, and often some of the common factors are present without others. For example:

The recent knife spree in Japan (killed 19 at least) happened without a gun.
The recent truck rampage in France happened without a gun, but was apparently motivated by a sudden radicalization.
The Orlando rampage was gun-related AND apparently ideological, though of course inconsistent as it boiled down to someone who hated himself for being gay.
The recent Munich shootings happened WITH a gun (because of Germany's gun laws, these things are extremely rare there, but again, that is not the discussion for this thread) and it happened without a clear political ideology (Oh, yes, The Sun was quick to call the shooter "Iranian" because he had dual citizenship, and to claim he shouted "Allahu Akbar" but if we put aside Murdoch's complete lies and distortions we find out that he wasn't religious, that he was actually shooting curses about foreigners, that his main grudge was that he had been bullied. But in the end, it primarily seems to have boiled down to the fact that he had an obsession with mass shootings and worshipped Anders Brevik.

I could go on but:

Now, there are more and more copycat attempts at violence (axes, knives, whatever, they USUALLY only get a couple of victims or fail to kill anyone if they don't have access to guns.) But who are they copying? Sometimes they are copying ISIS "heroes"; sometimes they are copying Anders Brevik, sometimes they are copying the Columbine killers or other US mass murderers, etc. etc.

But it seems to me that the only reason they are copying ANYONE is that we keep making household names of these killers, in our morbid fascination to probe their psyches, or to find out if they are immigrants, or right-wingers, or Muslims, or whatever.

Why are we giving these people air? No one would worship Brevik if they had no idea who he was, and most of the wannabe ISIS martyr asswipes (who for most of their lives, in a recurring pattern, were just non-religious petty criminals, lost youth who suddenly have a cause as nihilistic as themselves) wouldn't be motivated if they didn't see that every attack seemed to bring the "cause" closer to succeeding, by bringing on division and hatred.

All this is to say that I truly think, more than any other single thing we could do to stop this trend of attacks, would be to change how they are reported.

Most of all, I would propose some kind of international restriction against publishing the name or motivation of ANY mass killer. It wouldn't matter if he (and it is always a he, as Pu noted in another thread) did it because he hates women (Santa Barbara, Montreal), hates Christians, hates LGBT people, hates Muslims, hates immigrants, hates liberals, hates conservatives, hates soldiers, hates the government, or hates kids who bullied him or teachers who failed him or bosses who fired him. If these people realize they will be immediately forgotten, I believe they will be far, far, less tempted to try to make whatever sick statement they think they will leave as their legacy.

Now, I realize that the Murdoch/Dacre "press" and networks would go ballistic--for two reasons. They wouldn't be able to make money by demonizing people, and they wouldn't be able to make money by lurid speculation about the past histories of criminals. And these are Murdoch's main way of making money. The tabloids and cable news networks would cry that suppressing information about criminals was a "politically correct" fascist move to hide the fact that it was always "those people" (which it clearly isn't, but again, that isn't the point here).

If the Murdoch press would complain for all the wrong reasons, it still has to be granted that this proposal would constitute a limiting of freedom of the press (though it might be possible to frame it more in terms of police refusing to release information than in terms of prosecuting people for publishing it). It would also be easy, I suppose, for private investigators to snoop around and dig up details (whether true or false) and put them online, and for people to start conspiracy theories. So the proposal is indeed problematic. But is there a way around these obstacles and is it worth it for the greater good? Is knowing who a criminal is a fundamental right of the public? (As long as that criminal is punished, does the name and motivation matter?)

TL;DR:
What say you to the idea of some international agreement to suppress the names and motivations of mass murderers in order to drastically reduce copycat killings?
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HGL
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:22 am

The first thought is that it is unlikely to make that much of a difference. We already see speculation about the who, whys and wherefores before any arrests are made. In circumstances where an immediate arrest is not made, the police might release CCTV images in an appeal for witnesses or information that may contribute to an arrest. If the "person of interest" happens to of a particular appearance, people are likely to jump to conclusions one way or another. They already do if there is an explosion anywhere, even if it was the result of a gas leak.

When you have organisations like ISIS claiming responsibility for acts of violence anyway, perhaps it is better that we know the motivations behind an incident. If it is shown that the perpetrator acted out of some other cause then ISIS propaganda can be countered and (you never know your luck in the big city) people might actually be less inclined to blame all Muslims for every crime committed by an individual who just happens to be Muslim.

The other thing that we assume but don't necessarily know is that a person might be fascinated by Breivik or others and seek fame but what if they only wish to emulate the deed itself. Even if you were to end up with scholarly works citing instance of A in city B or instance E in country F, it is the details of how a crime was conceived, prepared for and carried out that might be the fascination, rather than the notoriety.

Perhaps more objective reporting rather than dramatisation and constant replays, or omitting "related links" to other events that may not actually be connected might help. But I don't think the removal of names or motivations will make that much of a difference in reducing crime. In a few, limited instances it might actually result in a miscarriage of justice if someone's name was withheld and a potential witness who could exonerate them did not know about it.
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pvjin
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:37 am

People should have the freedom to know as much as possible, and the identity of an attacker is a very relevant piece of information. Besides, if that wasn't released we can be sure that the media could also hide the true political motivation behind the attack, just to cover up the issue with Islamic terrorism in Europe. I don't want entire western world to end up like our neighbouring country Sweden, where reliable information regarding the relation of immigration and crime is not available because the regime doesn't want people to see how bad the situation truly is.

If we want to stop the attacks from happening in the future we need all the info we can get, so we can then proceed to act based on that.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:56 am

pvjin wrote:
Besides, if that wasn't released we can be sure that the media could also hide the true political motivation behind the attack,


aha.. they "could". So you finally admit that they don´t, since apparently they can´t. And well, you can see very well in Munich how missleading releasing the name is. German-Iranian, maybe Syrian, "Terrorist" kills nine people, and just by his name and origin people assume he is an IS terrorist, while in fact he was singing your party line.
So, if we take the template of condemning all Muslims for the acts of very few, we can rightfully extend that logic to him and therefore you. How does it feel to actively promote a terrorists philosophy?

I don't want entire western world to end up like our neighbouring country Sweden, where reliable information regarding the relation of immigration and crime is not available because the regime doesn't want people to see how bad the situation truly is.


That reminds me, you still owe proof that western media are a) state owned and b) fabricate complete BS stories with actors paid to make up eye witness reports like Russia Today does.

If we want to stop the attacks from happening in the future we need all the info we can get, so we can then proceed to act based on that.


Those few terrorist organisations that where ever beaten in the field, where beaten by solid police work within the confines of human rights as we understand them. All attempts to beat terrorists organisations with means outside those principles have not just failed, they have consistently increased the terror thread.
In this case, with fuller information with regards of the Munich Terrorists motivation, we should have a hard look at right wing, anti-immigration, anti-islam political parties just as hard as into ISIS sympathizer organisation, since their followers are obviously a threat.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pvjin
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:10 am

aha.. they "could". So you finally admit that they don´t, since apparently they can´t. And well, you can see very well in Munich how missleading releasing the name is. German-Iranian, maybe Syrian, "Terrorist" kills nine people, and just by his name and origin people assume he is an IS terrorist, while in fact he was singing your party line.


As far as I know the attacker in Munich was very similar to our school shooters in Finland, just person with mental health issues and deep hatred for the society. Can't see any political motive there.


So, if we take the template of condemning all Muslims for the acts of very few, we can rightfully extend that logic to him and therefore you. How does it feel to actively promote a terrorists philosophy?


But I've never promoted any ideology which could be used to justify random massacres.

That reminds me, you still owe proof that western media are a) state owned and b) fabricate complete BS stories with actors paid to make up eye witness reports like Russia Today does.


Not state owned, but largely influenced by the economic elite. Here in Finland most of our press is owned by just two or so media houses. And there are a lot of BS stories, like quoting "Syrian Observatory For Human Rights" as if it was a serious and reliable organization and not just a site run by some anti-Assad islamists from his home in the UK, which is really the case.

Those few terrorist organisations that where ever beaten in the field, where beaten by solid police work within the confines of human rights as we understand them. All attempts to beat terrorists organisations with means outside those principles have not just failed, they have consistently increased the terror thread.
In this case, with fuller information with regards of the Munich Terrorists motivation, we should have a hard look at right wing, anti-immigration, anti-islam political parties just as hard as into ISIS sympathizer organisation, since their followers are obviously a threat.


The terror threat directly correlates with amount of poorly integrated Muslim in any European country. Getting rid of poorly integrated Muslims, the main target for ISIS recruiters, is the only solution that works. On top of lowering the terror threat we would also save massive amounts of money on social costs and battle against crime. Back in the good old days the British transported a lot of their criminals to Australia or whatever, and that worked pretty well and was perfectly humane as nobody had to die. So deport them, and don't take any more Muslim migrants, other than those with high level of education.

And no, I don't think we should take a hard look at anti-Islam parties, because any freedom loving person should be anti-Islam and anti-religion in general, which possible exception of Buddhism and so. Being anti-Islam shouldn't be seen as a negative, but as a positive thing. It's really a bit like being anti-fascist.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:30 am

pvjin wrote:
As far as I know the attacker in Munich was very similar to our school shooters in Finland, just person with mental health issues and deep hatred for the society. Can't see any political motive there.


Aha.. so if a right wing, lets say Islam critic, commits and act of mass murder, it is just a person with mental health issues. When a Muslim does the same, he is a terrorist. Hey, that is just like White, Christian guys shooting up black churches are just poor mentally ill souls that acted alone, and anyone with a Muslim name obviously is an IS operator.....

But I've never promoted any ideology which could be used to justify random massacres.


YOU don´t think it cab be used to justify random massacres. Ali David disagrees.
So, basically what you are saying, just from the other side, is "Islam is the religion of peace".

That reminds me, you still owe proof that western media are a) state owned and b) fabricate complete BS stories with actors paid to make up eye witness reports like Russia Today does.


Not state owned, but largely influenced by the economic elite.


So, you lied.... they are not comparable to RT.

And there are a lot of BS stories, like quoting "Syrian Observatory For Human Rights" as if it was a serious and reliable organization and not just a site run by some anti-Assad islamists from his home in the UK, which is really the case.


Well, i guess when you think that giving something disproportionate value in reporting,that really exists and that is easily seen through by any interested party because the truth is only one google search away, with complete and utterly made up fabrications with no root in reality.... well, then i guess there is little help for you.

The terror threat directly correlates with amount of poorly integrated Muslim in any European country.


Cool, a correlation. What are the numbers exactly and what is the Sigma? You know i love statistics.

Getting rid of poorly integrated Muslims, the main target for ISIS recruiters, is the only solution that works


Well, there is hope. I hope you do anything you can to get your government to double their integration effort. Or do you just want to get rid of them without care for what happens to those other human beings?

On top of lowering the terror threat we would also save massive amounts of money on social costs and battle against crime. Back in the good old days the British transported a lot of their criminals to Australia or whatever, and that worked pretty well and was perfectly humane as nobody had to die. So deport them, and don't take any more Muslim migrants, other than those with high level of education.


Those with high level of education are the prototypical candidates to be terrorists, you know....
Are you saying that as long they have a high value to your economy, you are ok with some fins getting killed?

And no, I don't think we should take a hard look at anti-Islam parties,


Of course not. Let them keep spouring hate and keep motivating people into terror strikes.

because any freedom loving person should be anti-Islam and anti-religion in general,


Yup.. getting rid of imaginary friends would be a giant leap forward for mankind.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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HGL
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:02 am

pvjin wrote:
Back in the good old days the British transported a lot of their criminals to Australia or whatever, and that worked pretty well and was perfectly humane as nobody had to die.

LOL. It may have worked out for the British who had a problem with prison overcrowding. But those who were transported might beg to differ with your assessment. Not only did a proportion of them die on route due to the poor conditions on the prison ships but barbaric treatment (including perfectly civilised punishments of 500 lashes for infractions of the rules) and poor diet on arrival led to untimely deaths.

And what about the Aboriginal population? How many of them died as a result of the invasion, either directly through being killed with weaponry as they tried to defend their land, or indirectly through introduced diseases?

Yes, no one died. LOL
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tommy1808
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:23 am

HGL wrote:
Yes, no one died. LOL


... on top of that, or also separated families and friends from each other. What the heck did they do wrong to deserve that?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:42 pm

n229nw wrote:
TL;DR:
What say you to the idea of some international agreement to suppress the names and motivations of mass murderers in order to drastically reduce copycat killings?


I say no. I want nothing to do with an idea that runs dangerously close to an international censorship agreement. Freedom of the press must remain unabridged in free societies.

If newspapers choose to omit the names of mass murders as a matter of editorial discretion, then that is certainly their right. But prohibiting the free flow of information as a matter of public policy is abhorrent.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Redd
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:47 pm

I'm just surprised how under reported terrorist attacks in Iraq are in the media. Wanting to see how many terrorist attacks there had been in Europe over the past month I opened this page. Just look at what's going on in Iraq!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... _July_2016
 
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:06 pm

Aha.. so if a right wing, lets say Islam critic, commits and act of mass murder, it is just a person with mental health issues. When a Muslim does the same, he is a terrorist.


Depends from who he kills. Breivik and perhaps the Munich shooter could be classified as terrorists as it appears they targeted a specific group of people, while I find it difficult to classify for example Finnish school shooters terrorists as they just hated people in general, no matter what their political opinions regarding immigrants and such were.

So, you lied.... they are not comparable to RT.


In the end if you base your world view entirely on western media you are as lost as those who base it entirely on RT.

Well, i guess when you think that giving something disproportionate value in reporting,that really exists and that is easily seen through by any interested party because the truth is only one google search away, with complete and utterly made up fabrications with no root in reality.... well, then i guess there is little help for you.


Twisting the truth and telling only half-truths is often more effective way of misleading people than telling total lies.

Cool, a correlation. What are the numbers exactly and what is the Sigma? You know i love statistics.


Look around, do you see a lot of terrorism in Eastern Europe? I don't. And I'm not so sure whether anybody has ever made actual statistics about correlation between poorly integrated Muslims and terrorism, does it mean the correlation can't possibly exist? What I see is that it's countries with a lot of Muslims in Europe that suffer much more from terrorism than those with little Muslims.

Well, there is hope. I hope you do anything you can to get your government to double their integration effort. Or do you just want to get rid of them without care for what happens to those other human beings?


Our economy sucks, there are no jobs even for the native population right now, and with automation progressing there will be even less in the future. Without jobs there's no future for those refugees and not a chance of successful integration. So what can we do, create those jobs out of nothing by moving to Communism where everyone will be employed by the state? Or perhaps we should lower our wages to match those in India to get foreign investors? Yeah, I sure want to become poor just so that we can give foreign people a chance to be poor and miserable with us in this cold and dark country. There is nothing we can do to integrate them.

Those with high level of education are the prototypical candidates to be terrorists, you know....


I don't think so, not at least if we are talking about your average suicide bomber.

Of course not. Let them keep spouring hate and keep motivating people into terror strikes.


Those who truly motivate people into terror strikes can be found from European mosques and certain Middle-Eastern countries.

Yup.. getting rid of imaginary friends would be a giant leap forward for mankind.


Absolutely, yet it's never going to happen.

LOL. It may have worked out for the British who had a problem with prison overcrowding. But those who were transported might beg to differ with your assessment. Not only did a proportion of them die on route due to the poor conditions on the prison ships but barbaric treatment (including perfectly civilised punishments of 500 lashes for infractions of the rules) and poor diet on arrival led to untimely deaths.


People died in prisons of that time and were treated badly, so I don't see how transportation back then exactly caused any extra deaths. Today it could be done in civilized manner. Our government even offers free flights back to Iraq those who get their asylum application denied.

And what about the Aboriginal population? How many of them died as a result of the invasion, either directly through being killed with weaponry as they tried to defend their land, or indirectly through introduced diseases?


Sooner or later somebody else with superior technology would have invaded them anyway.

... on top of that, or also separated families and friends from each other. What the heck did they do wrong to deserve that?


Probably similar stuff to what sends people into prisons today. Should prison sentences be abolished, they too violate people's freedom of movement and their chances of meeting their families and friends?
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:12 am

Not a fan of the idea of not publishing names.

These terrorists are not in if for personal glory so they aren't going to care.

Frankly I think it is just a way to allow the current US government which has actively encouraged these attacks by being soft on Islamic Terror to pretend that Islamic Terror isn't a major problem in the world
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:30 am

In France two newspapers and a radio station have announced that they will no longer reveal the names or post photos of terrorist killers. Le Monde and La Croix have said they will not publish images and Europe 1 radio will not broadcast their names. Le Monde has stated this to be "to avoid the potential effect of posthumous glorification”.

BFM-TV and France 24 have announced a similar policy. In contrast France Télévisions, has adopted a different approach, saying: “Our duty is to inform, it’s the right of citizens to be informed. And we must resist this race towards self-censorship and grand declarations of intention.”

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/ ... terrorists
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solarflyer22
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:11 am

I think a media blackout is a great idea. Not just ignoring the names. You may recall that after Columbine, there were several mass shootings and its never really been the same since. I do think the media coverage makes things worse.

I also think asking the leaders of these nations, be it Syria or Saudi Arabia be told point blank they need to condemn these actions publicly otherwise they are collaborators. Whether its their citizens, politics or Islamic preaching contributing to this, it doesnt matter. Everyone needs to fight ISIS.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:13 am

pvjin wrote:
In the end if you base your world view entirely on western media you are as lost as those who base it entirely on RT.


If you really compare the plethora of private owned news media from, in Germany a very left wing TAZ to right wing Junge Freiheit to being informed by just one propaganda station, well, i guess in that case there is no helping you.
Of course you are right that no one should depend on just one media, but when that media happens to be RT, you may very well just read the bible and try to figure out which has more truth value.

Twisting the truth and telling only half-truths is often more effective way of misleading people than telling total lies.


Since RT does both, i am not sure what you are trying to say.

Look around, do you see a lot of terrorism in Eastern Europe?


i don´t think the sample size allows for any meaningful information from that, just see how fast Germany went from no terror to terror focus. Plus on top of that you don´t see much terrorism in many of the countries with a fairly open policy regarding refugees, so it is hard to see how to even get data from the situation.

And I'm not so sure whether anybody has ever made actual statistics about correlation between poorly integrated Muslims and terrorism, does it mean the correlation can't possibly exist?


So, you don´t know if it is true, you don´t know if that data even exists, you make no effort to get that information, otherwise you could present at least some date, but you know that is the reason.

We call those prejudices. Just like the prejudice that we want to kill all Moslems and blowing us up is just self defense...

What I see is that it's countries with a lot of Muslims in Europe that suffer much more from terrorism than those with little Muslims.


"You see that"? How about you quantify that?

I don't think so, not at least if we are talking about your average suicide bomber.


And again "i think", as if that defines reality. ...

MI5 estimated that 66% of all suspects are middle class, that suicide bombers especially are often highly educated and that 90% of them are highly social, with many friends.....

Larger studies did also show a positive correlation between education and becoming a terrorist.

Absolutely, yet it's never going to happen.


Well, i am more optimistic about it. We are already getting pretty near to losing respect for religion..... and once people get laughed at for saying they talk to God every day just as much as someone claiming he is talking to Napoleon, then we are almost there.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
ltbewr
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:54 am

It is an interesting argument to consider limiting the disclosure of the name and background info of those that do large scale criminal acts. In some cases the disclosure gives support to larger political groups. For others, it brings unnecessary attention and harm to the families of such persons. In the end, we want to know the why of such events, maybe learn why a person did it. Sometimes the name - especially a foreign or Isalmc one is a way to 'explain' the acts . Sadly, many mass murders do so for the publicity, to show how 'right' they are, to revenge for some 'wrong', but it is more likely to show their lack of mental fitness.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Stop naming mass murderers in the press?

Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:34 pm

Here's a thought: If sports television broadcasters have figured out a way to turn the cameras towards something else when a jackass runs onto the field of play (in order to not give the person the attention they crave), then why can't the same restraint be shown when covering a major attack?
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