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TheFlyingDisk
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Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:24 am

I didn't see anybody posting about this yet

A Muslim cleric and an associate were fatally shot by a lone gunman on Saturday while walking together following afternoon prayers at a mosque in the New York City borough of Queens, authorities said.

The gunman approached the men from behind and shot both in the head at close range at about 1:50 p.m. EDT on a blistering hot afternoon in the Ozone Park neighborhood, police said in a statement, adding that no arrests had been made.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-y ... SKCN10O0X4


I just have to ask one question: - do Americans really think that gun violence is still under control in America & that no action should be taken that can actually help reduce instances of gun violence?
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aerorobnz
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:27 am

to be expected really. It is likely a perfect storm of 1) Some Muslim clerics in the US inciting hatred against western ideals by preaching death to infidels/gays blah blah blah and 2) Trump inciting violence carte blanche towards anyone brown and the mentally retarded people who support him are prepared to do his bidding like the flying monkeys in the wizard of Oz 3) Rabid democrats who may want to keep Trump out at any cost. 4) No gun control 5) Poor Mental illness identification/treatment. None of it is acceptable, but Extremism breeds Extremism.
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pvjin
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:54 pm

I just have to ask one question: - do Americans really think that gun violence is still under control in America & that no action should be taken that can actually help reduce instances of gun violence?


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37077138

Meanwhile in Europe a knifeman kills one and injures several in a Swiss train. Do Europeans really think that knife violence is still under control in Europe & that no action should be taken that can actually help reduce instances of knife violence?
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:12 pm

pvjin wrote:
I just have to ask one question: - do Americans really think that gun violence is still under control in America & that no action should be taken that can actually help reduce instances of gun violence?


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37077138

Meanwhile in Europe a knifeman kills one and injures several in a Swiss train. Do Europeans really think that knife violence is still under control in Europe & that no action should be taken that can actually help reduce instances of knife violence?

Strawman argument of the very worst sort. Gun violence is killing ridiculously more people in the US than knife violence is killing people in Europe.

The attack on the Swiss train looks to be completely unrelated to terrorism BTW: the attacker was a Swiss national with a 'typically Swiss name (i.e. not a Muslim), a search of his house has turned up nothing hinting at terrorism, and one of the victims was apparently his ex.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:27 pm

So far the NYPD is not saying it is a 'hate crime', likely they are holding back from saying so until they have a suspect and can do a further investigation. A limited description of the likely shooter has been put out from eyewitness accounts and video recording.
No, don't blame this on Trump, it is possible a personal grudge of the shooter and the men shot, maybe something within the Mosque, or just some stupid nut case. Hopefully the shooter will be caught soon, face trial and if found guilty, faces life in prison.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:44 pm

Strawman argument of the very worst sort. Gun violence is killing ridiculously more people in the US than knife violence is killing people in Europe.


Mostly thugs shooting other thugs which isn't anywhere near as concerning as attacks towards random people which have become more and more common in Europe.
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:08 pm

pvjin wrote:
Mostly thugs shooting other thugs which isn't anywhere near as concerning as attacks towards random people which have become more and more common in Europe.


So school shootings are thugs shooting other thugs?

The Orlando shooting is one thug shooting another thug?
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pvjin
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:12 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Mostly thugs shooting other thugs which isn't anywhere near as concerning as attacks towards random people which have become more and more common in Europe.


So school shootings are thugs shooting other thugs?

The Orlando shooting is one thug shooting another thug?


School shootings with a lot of victim aren't that regular in the US. The Orlando shooting was a case of Islamic terrorism related to the deep hatred towards sexual minorities that is one part of all Abrahamic religions.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
mham001
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:21 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I didn't see anybody posting about this yet


I didn't see any posting about the French priest brutally killed by Muslims either. The last time we had a headline about a cleric, it was an inside job but that didn't stop the kneejerks from blaming Trump, whitey, guns, America, et al.

Of interest here is that demonstrators had signs printed before the bodies were even cold. It is clear that America can mold a victim from an immigrant in no time. No good comes from our current immigration policies.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:27 pm

pvjin wrote:
Strawman argument of the very worst sort. Gun violence is killing ridiculously more people in the US than knife violence is killing people in Europe.


Mostly thugs shooting other thugs which isn't anywhere near as concerning as attacks towards random people which have become more and more common in Europe.

Can we see some numbers for those claims please?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:29 pm

mham001 wrote:
No good comes from our current immigration policies.


Stop going into other people's countries to foist your political ideals & incompatible values upon others. You'll get less immigrants that way.
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mham001
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:31 pm

Scorpio wrote:
Can we see some numbers for those claims please?


Have at it.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... /cius-home

Any simple search will reveal that excluding gangs, our violent crime is close to that of Europe and others.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:32 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Stop going into other people's countries to foist your political ideals & incompatible values upon others. You'll get less immigrants that way.


I know, huh? Like Libya?

But that has little to nothing to do with US immigration policies.
Last edited by mham001 on Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Scorpio
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:34 pm

mham001 wrote:
I didn't see any posting about the French priest brutally killed by Muslims either.


https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1338897
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:35 pm

Scorpio wrote:
mham001 wrote:
I didn't see any posting about the French priest brutally killed by Muslims either.


https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1338897


I stand corrected. Search function here is apparently not the best.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:44 pm

mham001 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
Can we see some numbers for those claims please?


Have at it.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... /cius-home

Any simple search will reveal that excluding gangs, our violent crime is close to that of Europe and others.

Comparisons of violent crime are useless, since the US has a much narrower definition of 'violent crime' than most European countries do.

Looking at murder, gun murders are responsible for less than 20% of total murders. That still puts you WAY above European countries.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:45 pm

Scorpio wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Strawman argument of the very worst sort. Gun violence is killing ridiculously more people in the US than knife violence is killing people in Europe.


Mostly thugs shooting other thugs which isn't anywhere near as concerning as attacks towards random people which have become more and more common in Europe.

Can we see some numbers for those claims please?


If you sum up the number of dead in massacres committed in Europe during past year, and compare it to most earlier years, you can see a big increase.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
mham001
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:47 pm

Scorpio wrote:
Comparisons of violent crime are useless, since the US has a much narrower definition of 'violent crime' than most European countries do.

Looking at murder, gun murders are responsible for less than 20% of total murders. That still puts you WAY above European countries.


That is obfuscating the point. TOTAL murders (does it really matter how?) would be similar if 13% of our population were excluded from the stats. And of that 13%, most are committed by a small minority of young men (gangs). This is not new news.

On another tact, if one wanted a snippet of race relations and immigration in the US, read this from today's news; https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/gra ... /#comments

Of particular disgust is the the outrage expressed by the Syrian Kurd immigrant. Her homeland supported by white America, allowed to come here and attend the best liberal colleges by white America and all she can do is jump into the fray against whitey. This did not start with Trump but this attitude is exactly why Trump has such following.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:05 pm

mham001 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
Comparisons of violent crime are useless, since the US has a much narrower definition of 'violent crime' than most European countries do.

Looking at murder, gun murders are responsible for less than 20% of total murders. That still puts you WAY above European countries.


That is obfuscating the point. TOTAL murders (does it really matter how?) would be similar if 13% of our population were excluded from the stats. And of that 13%, most are committed by a small minority of young men (gangs). This is not new news.

On another tact, if one wanted a snippet of race relations and immigration in the US, read this from today's news; https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/gra ... /#comments

Of particular disgust is the the outrage expressed by the Syrian Kurd immigrant. Her homeland supported by white America, allowed to come here and attend the best liberal colleges by white America and all she can do is jump into the fray against whitey. This did not start with Trump but this attitude is exactly why Trump has such following.

I see that I made a mistake in my previous response. When I wrote that 'gun murders' are less than 20% of total murders, I meant 'gang murders'. Only see now that I typed gun in stead of gang.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:29 pm

mham001 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
Comparisons of violent crime are useless, since the US has a much narrower definition of 'violent crime' than most European countries do.

Looking at murder, gun murders are responsible for less than 20% of total murders. That still puts you WAY above European countries.


That is obfuscating the point. TOTAL murders (does it really matter how?) would be similar if 13% of our population were excluded from the stats. And of that 13%, most are committed by a small minority of young men (gangs). This is not new news.

On another tact, if one wanted a snippet of race relations and immigration in the US, read this from today's news; https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/gra ... /#comments

Of particular disgust is the the outrage expressed by the Syrian Kurd immigrant. Her homeland supported by white America, allowed to come here and attend the best liberal colleges by white America and all she can do is jump into the fray against whitey. This did not start with Trump but this attitude is exactly why Trump has such following.


Two things:

1. The linked article would be a good starting point for a discussion on self-segregation. People who surround themselves with only those who think and act and believe as they do.
2. No, Trump is not responsible for hatred of Muslims. He perpetuates that hatred. It was actually people who have been demanding that the only terrorism that exists is Islamic terrorism and the root cause of evil and hatred is Islam.
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:39 pm

Scorpio wrote:
I see that I made a mistake in my previous response. When I wrote that 'gun murders' are less than 20% of total murders, I meant 'gang murders'. Only see now that I typed gun in stead of gang.


Where did you get that number? Better to look at the race disparities and of that race, the age and sex. This is largely gang violence, whether the police categorize it or not.

For example, this week..."Nearly 100 people have been shot in Chicago in less than a week, pushing the number of shooting victims so far this year to more than 2,500 — about 800 more than this time last year, according to data kept by the Tribune.

Between last Friday afternoon and early Thursday, at least 99 people were shot in the city, 24 of them fatally. At least nine people were killed on Monday alone, the deadliest day in Chicago in 13 years, according to Tribune data. Among the wounded that day was a 10-year-old boy shot in the back as he played on his front porch in Lawndale."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html

The victims - 75% Black, 19% Hispanic, 5% White. I guarantee, those are not white boys gunning down black folks, yetet when one black man is killed by white police, it becomes worldwide headlines. "Victims". I will not even delve into the liberal policies of the Obama/Rahm Chicago, with it's strict gun laws and soft police policies. Chicago - Where Black Lives Splatter
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:47 pm

pvjin wrote:

Mostly thugs shooting other thugs which isn't anywhere near as concerning as attacks towards random people which have become more and more common in Europe.


Your implicit racism is noted. But guess what? Those "thugs" are human beings.

Last night there was another shooting on our corner. THIS time, the bullets didn't come into our house. Every time a gun is fired, that bullet continues to travel on past the target (if not stopped by it) and hits whatever is next in its path. That makes bullets a lot more destructive than knives.
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Scorpio
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:01 pm

mham001 wrote:
Where did you get that number?

Combination of two sources. This one:

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis/measuring-the-extent-of-gang-problems
...lists the number of gang homicides per year, at about 2,000 on average.

And this one:
http://www.statista.com/statistics/195331/number-of-murders-in-the-us-by-state/
...gives the total number of homicides per year in the US, by state. Works out to a total of about 12,000.

That puts gang homicides at less than 20% of the total number of homicides.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:55 pm

mham001 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
Can we see some numbers for those claims please?


Have at it.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... /cius-home

Any simple search will reveal that excluding gangs, our violent crime is close to that of Europe and others.

At least this time you used the euphemistic term "gangs." In the past I've seen you and others say "if we exclude black on black crime." Either way it's irrelevant. Gang members are overwhelmingly American. Blacks are American. You can't exclude either to get the result you want. Our violent crime rate is incredibly high compared to Europe's, particularly our violent gun death rate.

mham001 wrote:
This did not start with Trump but this attitude is exactly why Trump has such following.

Trump has a following because this country never really came to terms with its bigotry. Rather than deal with it, the Republican party pandered to racists and assorted other bigots for votes. Trump has exploited this anger, and that is why he has a following. We all need to stop pretending that racism and bigotry aren't the heart and soul of Trump's support.
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:23 pm

OA412 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
Can we see some numbers for those claims please?


Have at it.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... /cius-home

Any simple search will reveal that excluding gangs, our violent crime is close to that of Europe and others.

At least this time you used the euphemistic term "gangs." In the past I've seen you and others say "if we exclude black on black crime." Either way it's irrelevant. Gang members are overwhelmingly American. Blacks are American. You can't exclude either to get the result you want. Our violent crime rate is incredibly high compared to Europe's, particularly our violent gun death rate.


Also it's pretty disingenuous to compare Europe's murder rate with US murder rate minus gangs.

There are organised gangs in Europe and their impact on the global rate is comparable if not higher than the US.

Back in the rough 90s in Madrid gang crime (balkan groups plus the recently imported Latino gangs often clashing with local groups) was responsible for as much as two thirds of violent crime.

Nowadays the numbers are comparable.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:29 pm

mham001 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
mham001 wrote:
I didn't see any posting about the French priest brutally killed by Muslims either.


https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1338897


I stand corrected. Search function here is apparently not the best.


You even posted in it, the third post was yours.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:29 pm

Your implicit racism is noted. But guess what? Those "thugs" are human beings.


It's my strong belief that thugs come in all colours even if some are over represented, so I don't find anything racist about the message.

Last night there was another shooting on our corner. THIS time, the bullets didn't come into our house. Every time a gun is fired, that bullet continues to travel on past the target (if not stopped by it) and hits whatever is next in its path. That makes bullets a lot more destructive than knives.


Finland has plenty of guns too, yet gun violence is still very rare compared to the US, and it's super rare for our police to have to shoot anybody. What your country has a real problem with isn't necessarily guns, but social inequality.
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:34 pm

DocLightning wrote:

Your implicit racism is noted. But guess what? Those "thugs" are human beings.


Bad people killing each other is ok in my book, it's much cheaper if they are dead than wasting taxpayer money in prison.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:37 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Last night there was another shooting on our corner. THIS time, the bullets didn't come into our house. Every time a gun is fired, that bullet continues to travel on past the target (if not stopped by it) and hits whatever is next in its path. That makes bullets a lot more destructive than knives.


You're a well paid Doctor what are you doing living in a dodgy neighborhood where it appears shooting are commonplace.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:38 pm

mham001, first you talk about your country's immigration policies, then about "13% of the population" and Chicago. Last time I checked those black people are not immigrants, they were there before your country even existed !
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:20 pm

This is a little ot but the crime rate (shootings) in Chicago is just ridiculous. I mean, is there any other city in a modern country that has this many shooting deaths?

It's easy to dismiss gang members as nothing more than "thugs" but for each one killed, there is a grieving mother, father, wife, etc.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:28 pm

Scorpio wrote:

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis/measuring-the-extent-of-gang-problems
...lists the number of gang homicides per year, at about 2,000 on average.

That puts gang homicides at less than 20% of the total number of homicides.


Your source says not to be careful using those numbers because they are not accurate. I don't currently have other numbers and don't care to spend time today on it but here is a map of homicides committed in SF Bay area in 2016. http://www.mercurynews.com/homicides

By looking at it, a person would think all the unmarked areas are uninhabited. except they are not, they are as heavily populated as any other. Anybody around knows that these are areas with heavy Latino and black populations and heavy with gangs. I used the term 'gangs' to avoid pointing fingers at race, but in reality, it is a problem within the race, no matter how some people wish not to discuss it. I know...racist. Too bad, it is reality.

It is an irrefutable fact that blacks commit ~50% of homicides in the US and the murderers are by far, predominantly young black men. In my city, it is Latino gangs and most of the murders are committed in gangland territory during gang hours. The police have become hesitant to report them as gang killings because they are under intense pressure due to liberal city policies.



This map irrifutably illustrates one of the reasons why there is so much resistance to gun control.
Last edited by mham001 on Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mham001
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:38 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
You even posted in it, the third post was yours.


I thought so tto but search 'priest killing' and it doesn't show.

Aesma wrote:
mham001, first you talk about your country's immigration policies, then about "13% of the population" and Chicago. Last time I checked those black people are not immigrants, they were there before your country even existed !


The thread forked. Keep up. And I think you are confused about the history of Africans in North America. They were imported by white Europeans.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:48 pm

mham001 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis/measuring-the-extent-of-gang-problems
...lists the number of gang homicides per year, at about 2,000 on average.

That puts gang homicides at less than 20% of the total number of homicides.


Your source says not to be careful using those numbers because they are not accurate. I don't currently have other numbers and don't care to spend time today on it but here is a map of homicides committed in SF Bay area in 2016. By looking at it, a person would think all the unmarked areas are uninhabited. except they are not, they are as heavily populated as any other. Anybody around knows that these are areas with heavy Latino and black populations and heavy with gangs. I used the term 'gangs' to avoid pointing fingers at race, but in reality, it is a problem within the race, no matter how some people wish not to discuss it. I know...racist. Too bad, it is reality.

It is an irrefutable fact that blacks commit ~50% of homicides in the US and the murderers are by far, predominantly young black men. In my city, it is Latino gangs and most of the murders are committed in gangland territory during gang hours. The police have become hesitant to report them as gang killings because they are under intense pressure due to liberal city policies.

http://www.mercurynews.com/homicides

This map irrifutably illustrates one of the reasons why there is so much resistance to gun control.

I find the way you're constantly trying to minimise the USA's gun crime and murder problem, and the way you're trying to put the blame on 'others', even saying it's a problem of the races quite staggering to be honest. Has it ever occurred to you that the problem may not be race, but rather generational poverty among inner-city African American and Latino populations, with little perspective for improvement, combined with easy access to guns that makes the lethal combination? We have poor groups of people in European cities too, in similar circumstances, but they're not offing each other at anything near the rate they are in the US. And while my source indeed says to be careful with the numbers as they may not be entirely accurate, they ARE indicative. Hell, even if they are off by 100%, your 'non-gang related' murder rate would STILL be considerably higher than Europe's complete murder rate, including gang-related murders.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:48 pm

OA412 wrote:
At least this time you used the euphemistic term "gangs." In the past I've seen you and others say "if we exclude black on black crime." Either way it's irrelevant. Gang members are overwhelmingly American. Blacks are American. You can't exclude either to get the result you want. Our violent crime rate is incredibly high compared to Europe's, particularly our violent gun death rate.


You can look at it in several ways - Removing Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago and New Orleans from the statistics, and you have a national average for violent crime pretty close to other 1st world countries. The same with removing black-on-black statistics, or gang-related stats (and gangs are not all black BTW). The inescapable conclusion for any thinking person is that the violence in the US is not pervasive throughout the country, but concentrated in certain segments of society and certain cities.

And let's keep things in perspective. While a lot of violence is now much more "in-your-face" due to social media and 24 hour news cycles, gun homicides are sharply down over the past 20 years or so.

Image

OA412 wrote:
Trump has a following because this country never really came to terms with its bigotry. Rather than deal with it, the Republican party pandered to racists and assorted other bigots for votes. Trump has exploited this anger, and that is why he has a following. We all need to stop pretending that racism and bigotry aren't the heart and soul of Trump's support.


Oh please. Sure there are some assholes on the Trump side, but they are a small minority - most are people simply fed up with a government out of control, serving their own purposes, and not fulfilling the most basic of governmental obligations - such as border security. And the biggest racists in the current climate are the BLM-related groups that Democrats are pandering to. Have you seen their demands? It is 100% racist, and I have not heard any democrats denounce it.

https://policy.m4bl.org/
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:52 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I didn't see anybody posting about this yet

A Muslim cleric and an associate were fatally shot by a lone gunman on Saturday while walking together following afternoon prayers at a mosque in the New York City borough of Queens, authorities said.

The gunman approached the men from behind and shot both in the head at close range at about 1:50 p.m. EDT on a blistering hot afternoon in the Ozone Park neighborhood, police said in a statement, adding that no arrests had been made.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-y ... SKCN10O0X4


I just have to ask one question: - do Americans really think that gun violence is still under control in America & that no action should be taken that can actually help reduce instances of gun violence?


Well if you believe the nuts in the NRA, the Muslim Cleric and his Associate should have been armed to be able to defend themselves. I'm sure everyone would feel so very much safer with Muslims walking down the street with an assault rifle slung over their shoulder!!!
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:25 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

You're a well paid Doctor what are you doing living in a dodgy neighborhood where it appears shooting are commonplace.


This is the Bay Area, this is what I could afford. Since we bought the house it's doubled in value, but there are still projects across the street.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Tugger
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:08 am

Dreadnought wrote:
And let's keep things in perspective. While a lot of violence is now much more "in-your-face" due to social media and 24 hour news cycles, gun homicides are sharply down over the past 20 years or so.

So what yu oare demonstrating and apparently agreeing with is that major gun control legislation does work.... because 1993 is when the Brady Act was passed. And that created that great decrease your graph is showing.

Gun control can work.

Dreadnought wrote:
not fulfilling the most basic of governmental obligations - such as border security.

So you do want to bankrupt the country? How much will it cost to build the wall? And staff it. And to then improve and maintain it as the ladders get taller and the tunnels longer? I take it you support making the US borders secure and looking like this:
Image
Image

But the truth is what needs to actually happen is that money and effort people are calling for on a wall and the border needs to be applied to work verification systems. But the conservatives are no more interested in that and instead prefer to build another federal agency and curry favor with the labor groups and military complex that supports such systems.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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seb146
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:05 am

Dreadnought wrote:
Oh please. Sure there are some assholes on the Trump side, but they are a small minority - most are people simply fed up with a government out of control, serving their own purposes, and not fulfilling the most basic of governmental obligations - such as border security. And the biggest racists in the current climate are the BLM-related groups that Democrats are pandering to. Have you seen their demands? It is 100% racist, and I have not heard any democrats denounce it.

https://policy.m4bl.org/


The first line of this statement is laughable at best. This is the same reasoning Republicans use for defending the tea movement. The "do nothing" party.

Second, what you see as racist, 21st century Americans see as equality.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:57 am

mham001 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis/measuring-the-extent-of-gang-problems
...lists the number of gang homicides per year, at about 2,000 on average.

That puts gang homicides at less than 20% of the total number of homicides.


Your source says not to be careful using those numbers because they are not accurate. I don't currently have other numbers and don't care to spend time today on it but here is a map of homicides committed in SF Bay area in 2016. http://www.mercurynews.com/homicides

By looking at it, a person would think all the unmarked areas are uninhabited. except they are not, they are as heavily populated as any other. Anybody around knows that these are areas with heavy Latino and black populations and heavy with gangs. I used the term 'gangs' to avoid pointing fingers at race, but in reality, it is a problem within the race, no matter how some people wish not to discuss it. I know...racist. Too bad, it is reality.

It is an irrefutable fact that blacks commit ~50% of homicides in the US and the murderers are by far, predominantly young black men. In my city, it is Latino gangs and most of the murders are committed in gangland territory during gang hours. The police have become hesitant to report them as gang killings because they are under intense pressure due to liberal city policies.



This map irrifutably illustrates one of the reasons why there is so much resistance to gun control.

You're gonna have to find way more groups to scapegoat since our gun murder rate is about 50x that of Germany's, for example. But republicans have a hard time with stats and numbers if it's not in duh bible:-D
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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seb146
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:27 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I didn't see anybody posting about this yet

A Muslim cleric and an associate were fatally shot by a lone gunman on Saturday while walking together following afternoon prayers at a mosque in the New York City borough of Queens, authorities said.

The gunman approached the men from behind and shot both in the head at close range at about 1:50 p.m. EDT on a blistering hot afternoon in the Ozone Park neighborhood, police said in a statement, adding that no arrests had been made.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-y ... SKCN10O0X4


I just have to ask one question: - do Americans really think that gun violence is still under control in America & that no action should be taken that can actually help reduce instances of gun violence?


When anyone not white and male is gunned down in this country, a specific group says "well, they should have been following the rules!" But, when a white male guns down people, those same people scream "DON'T TAKE AWAY MY GUNS!!!!" and "Why do you 'liberals' hate the Constitution???" before anything is even said.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
flyguy89
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:39 am

Tugger wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
And let's keep things in perspective. While a lot of violence is now much more "in-your-face" due to social media and 24 hour news cycles, gun homicides are sharply down over the past 20 years or so.

So what yu oare demonstrating and apparently agreeing with is that major gun control legislation does work.... because 1993 is when the Brady Act was passed. And that created that great decrease your graph is showing.

Gun control can work.

Not necessarily, no, it's arguable at the most. There's a lot of debate over whether the Brady Act was effective at all, and gun violence has continued to decline even after the assault weapons ban expired.
 
Kiwirob
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:18 am

Tugger wrote:
So you do want to bankrupt the country? How much will it cost to build the wall? And staff it. And to then improve and maintain it as the ladders get taller and the tunnels longer? I take it you support making the US borders secure and looking like this:
Image
Image

But the truth is what needs to actually happen is that money and effort people are calling for on a wall and the border needs to be applied to work verification systems. But the conservatives are no more interested in that and instead prefer to build another federal agency and curry favor with the labor groups and military complex that supports such systems.

Tugg


The US border already looks like those picturers in some places.

Image

Image
 
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SOBHI51
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:05 am

A man was arrested and charged with 2 murders, well done NY police
Now let's see what was his motive.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/15/us/new-yo ... index.html
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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lugie
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:45 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
You're gonna have to find way more groups to scapegoat since our gun murder rate is about 50x that of Germany's, for example. But republicans have a hard time with stats and numbers if it's not in duh bible:-D


Thank you, I was about to say this: Luckily the map distinguishes between "Shootings", "Stabbings" and "Other".

Judging roughly by a first glance I'd say that the red "shooting" dots make up >85% of the crimes on that map. So maybe, just maybe the actual problem could be something else than "gangs/thugs/ethnicities"...
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mham001
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:18 pm

Scorpio wrote:

I find the way you're constantly trying to minimise the USA's gun crime and murder problem, and the way you're trying to put the blame on 'others', even saying it's a problem of the races quite staggering to be honest. Has it ever occurred to you that the problem may not be race, but rather generational poverty among inner-city African American and Latino populations, with little perspective for improvement, combined with easy access to guns that makes the lethal combination? We have poor groups of people in European cities too, in similar circumstances, but they're not offing each other at anything near the rate they are in the US.


The problem with that argument is that we have other groups of immigrants in the same situation as Latinos and blacks - even moreso because they often don't speak the common languages, but they don't run around killing each other. The key group typically ignored in these discussions are Asians. They simply don't have these problems, which the map illustrates succinctly. Yes, it is racial. Like it or not.

My kids have attended schools 75% Latino and now, 75% Asian. I grew up in predominantly black neighborhoods. The differences in attitudes are astounding. Asians (even fresh-off-the-boat poor Asians) have an interest in educating their offspring and pushing them along that does not exist in black and Latino communities (the 'perspective for improvement' you mention). Or even as much in white communities. They can come here and excel in one generation and are routinely proving it.

If that is not a racial difference, what is it?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:59 pm

mham001 wrote:
The key group typically ignored in these discussions are Asians. They simply don't have these problems, which the map illustrates succinctly. Yes, it is racial. Like it or not.


Is it?
Image

Source: Wikipedia

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
mham001
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:09 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
The key group typically ignored in these discussions are Asians. They simply don't have these problems, which the map illustrates succinctly. Yes, it is racial. Like it or not.


Is it?
Image



Not sure what that proves, other than how easily you are misled, living 8,000 miles away. Most of the Vietnamese and Filipinos in my neighborhood did come here poor. The entire Vietnamese community did not exist until the 70's and they thrive, as your numbers indicate. Boat people. And while they do very much have gangs, they are not killing each other en masse. As opposed to the much older Latino community in San Jose, the area highlighted by all the red dots on the map.

Trying to claim that culture and race do not factor is silly and only exacerbates the problem.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:37 am

I didn't confuse anything, black slaves were mostly imported before the country USA existed. Now mham001, are you a descendant of those slaves, or of their white masters ?

I also think you're confusing "race" and culture.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seb146
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Re: Muslim Cleric Killed in Queens

Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:26 am

Something I find interesting:

In a group of 10 minorities, 4 will be involved with violent gun crime. In a group of 100 whites, 35 will be involved with violent gun crime. Ammosexuals will say "well, it is obvious the Blacks have to be kept away from guns because 40% of them are in gangs!" but when it is pointed out that 35% of Whites are involved with gun crimes, the same ammosexuals will scream "WHY DO YOU HATE THE SECOND AMENDMENT????"

I also have to point out that Asian gangs are pretty violent.

And, yes, it was Whites who decided that Blacks should be treated as property. And some still do. *cough*Trump supporters*cough*
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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