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ltbewr
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:56 pm

I live in Northern New Jersey and around a wide range of persons of the Islamic and Jewish faiths, both with sub-groups with strict rules as to body covering and gender segregation. It is not uncommon to see women with full burkas, only their eyes showing. I don't think any NJ or Federal beach would make burkinis illegal, indeed our laws would have to allow them, although we do regulate the other way as to topless by women or nudity by anyone. It seems to be a counterdiction of the French ideals of liberty to so regulate how much one can be covered up in public but then again they have other onerous rules restricting religious freedom in public.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:25 pm

Hmm, now that I think of it any country that bans people from walking around naked is no more free than those that ban people from using burka. Perhaps due to hygienic reasons you could ban people from sitting naked in public transport and stuff like that, but there's no valid reason whatsoever to ban people from walking naked in middle of a city street.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
Why all this body shaming of women? If they wear "burquinis" they are bad. If they wear next to nothing, they are bad. Who the eff cares? Let them wear what they feel comfortable in.


Well, if you refuse to get nacked in the sauna you get kicked out. I don't see why dressed people regardless of dress should be allowed in places where everyone is half-nacked/nacked for any more than the tranotional phase to pick a spot and undress.

I can't really go shopping nacked because it makes other people uncomfortable, no matter how much I claim to buy into christian naturism, so I don't see why that mechanism should work exactly that way there other way round.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
incitatus
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:13 pm

While I do not like this law - it is yet another twist on a double standard. Whenever I see a covered woman in the West side-by-side with the husband, the husband is wearing Western outfits. Typically the man has a Tommy Hilfiger polo shirt (or another WESTERN preppy brand), a baseball cap, shorts and sneakers.

I can understand some women were brought up to feel uncomfortable being uncovered. Instead of following their instinct, I do think they should revolt. Then there are some that are pressured by family members. They should revolt too.

Folks in this thread talking about protection from the Sun, everyone should be concerned about it - not just the women wearing burkinas. Why is it that the husbands of Burkina women are wearing Billabong surfshorts????
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mham001
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:34 pm

lewis wrote:

Sorry, it is not exactly like that. European families choose not to have as many children because it is a financial burden and little assistance comes from the government for native families that need it. Instead of spending millions - billions of Euros for the welcoming, housing, schooling and educating of fresh waves of immigrants, why not use the same funds to make it easier for native families to actually have more children. Having few to no children is not exactly a lifestyle choice as media in Europe portrays it, it is a financial necessity.


In the US, the reason we have been told for decades is because of population control. We didn't ahve enough resources to maintain our birthrates and for the sake of the world, needed to stop making babies. I was indoctrinated with this from an early age in the 60's and this did lead to a decline in the birth rates of US whites, only.

Now, we are being told, by the very same people, that we need to continue to let in masses of brown immigrants.

MrHMSH wrote:
Malaysia has moved away from conservative Islam, a step in the right direction. But unfortunately they and Indonesia are a minority. Neighbours Brunei are atrocious for human rights and inequality, as are the influential and wealthy Gulf states.


I'm not sure where this anet myth began, but there is little to no basis for it. In particular, Indonesia, is moving towards extremist Islam. Meanwhile, in Malaysia, a consistent 86% believe Sharia law should be the law of the land (have you looked into what that does for women's rights?) and 52% believe in the most strict interpretation of the Quran. At least 11% support ISIS. All this according to Pew research.
 
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seb146
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:44 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why all this body shaming of women? If they wear "burquinis" they are bad. If they wear next to nothing, they are bad. Who the eff cares? Let them wear what they feel comfortable in.


Well, if you refuse to get nacked in the sauna you get kicked out. I don't see why dressed people regardless of dress should be allowed in places where everyone is half-nacked/nacked for any more than the tranotional phase to pick a spot and undress.

I can't really go shopping nacked because it makes other people uncomfortable, no matter how much I claim to buy into christian naturism, so I don't see why that mechanism should work exactly that way there other way round.

Best regards
Thomas


The sauna at my gym is optional whether or not to be naked. There are separate ones for men and women. Some men use the sauna, some don't. Those who do, some are naked, some are in various stages of dress. So what?

As for your second point: I agree. If people want to run around naked as part of their religion, fine. They should follow existing laws and health codes, but, other than that, who cares? I have been to plenty of clothing optional beaches and it usually turns out that those who are naked are the ones who should not be.

The French are making up things as they go along, it seems to me. Muslim women decided to make something to allow them more flexibility on the beach. They worked within the confines of their branch of their religion and came up with a solution. That kinda destroys the myth that women have zero say in their religion, doesn't it?
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MrHMSH
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:27 pm

mham001 wrote:
lewis wrote:

Sorry, it is not exactly like that. European families choose not to have as many children because it is a financial burden and little assistance comes from the government for native families that need it. Instead of spending millions - billions of Euros for the welcoming, housing, schooling and educating of fresh waves of immigrants, why not use the same funds to make it easier for native families to actually have more children. Having few to no children is not exactly a lifestyle choice as media in Europe portrays it, it is a financial necessity.


In the US, the reason we have been told for decades is because of population control. We didn't ahve enough resources to maintain our birthrates and for the sake of the world, needed to stop making babies. I was indoctrinated with this from an early age in the 60's and this did lead to a decline in the birth rates of US whites, only.

Now, we are being told, by the very same people, that we need to continue to let in masses of brown immigrants.

MrHMSH wrote:
Malaysia has moved away from conservative Islam, a step in the right direction. But unfortunately they and Indonesia are a minority. Neighbours Brunei are atrocious for human rights and inequality, as are the influential and wealthy Gulf states.


I'm not sure where this anet myth began, but there is little to no basis for it. In particular, Indonesia, is moving towards extremist Islam. Meanwhile, in Malaysia, a consistent 86% believe Sharia law should be the law of the land (have you looked into what that does for women's rights?) and 52% believe in the most strict interpretation of the Quran. At least 11% support ISIS. All this according to Pew research.


I'm hardly an expert, but I'd wager that I've got more experience of those countries than you do.

Malaysia isn't extreme. Neither is Indonesia.
 
mham001
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:54 pm

MrHMSH wrote:

I'm hardly an expert, but I'd wager that I've got more experience of those countries than you do.

Malaysia isn't extreme. Neither is Indonesia.


I'm sorry, I did not say anything about personal experience and your anecdotal experience does not overcome a consistent, repeated poll. Nor did I say either were extreme, but they, particularly Indonesia, are moving in that direction, which the consistent, repeated polls have clearly shown. As has the news, if one cared to look.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:00 pm

mham001 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

I'm hardly an expert, but I'd wager that I've got more experience of those countries than you do.

Malaysia isn't extreme. Neither is Indonesia.


I'm sorry, I did not say anything about personal experience and your anecdotal experience does not overcome a consistent, repeated poll. Nor did I say either were extreme, but they, particularly Indonesia, are moving in that direction, which the consistent, repeated polls have clearly shown. As has the news, if one cared to look.


Have you considered what 86% of people thinking Sharia should be law would look like? Hint: not Malaysia. Because women don't cover up as much, maybe it happens in some regions, but none of the big cities (Kuala Lumpur, Kuching, Miri, Kota Kinabalu, Johor Bahru amongst others) are remotely extreme or conservative compared to some of the Arab countries.
 
mham001
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:24 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Have you considered what 86% of people thinking Sharia should be law would look like? Hint: not Malaysia. Because women don't cover up as much, maybe it happens in some regions, but none of the big cities (Kuala Lumpur, Kuching, Miri, Kota Kinabalu, Johor Bahru amongst others) are remotely extreme or conservative compared to some of the Arab countries.


Well, since you asked, 41% of those 86% believe Sharia law should apply to ALL citizens. 60% of those 86% believe women should be stoned for adultery. 62% of them believe in capital punishment for apostasy. Malaysia is one of only two Asian countries with apostasy laws, Brunei being the other.

In fact, Malaysia is right up there with many of the more extreme countries that we know, in many regards.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:41 pm

mham001 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Have you considered what 86% of people thinking Sharia should be law would look like? Hint: not Malaysia. Because women don't cover up as much, maybe it happens in some regions, but none of the big cities (Kuala Lumpur, Kuching, Miri, Kota Kinabalu, Johor Bahru amongst others) are remotely extreme or conservative compared to some of the Arab countries.


Well, since you asked, 41% of those 86% believe Sharia law should apply to ALL citizens. 60% of those 86% believe women should be stoned for adultery. 62% of them believe in capital punishment for apostasy. Malaysia is one of only two Asian countries with apostasy laws, Brunei being the other.

In fact, Malaysia is right up there with many of the more extreme countries that we know, in many regards.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/


I'm a Muslim. I'm Malaysian.

I wasn't interviewed by anyone from the Pew Research Center.
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mham001
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:08 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/

I'm a Muslim. I'm Malaysian.

I wasn't interviewed by anyone from the Pew Research Center.


I'd bet nobody asked your opinion when they wrote those blasphemy and apostasy laws either. And so?
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:49 am

Maybe I did paint some with a broad brush, but mostly what I see, what I read and what I have learned is that too many Muslims all over hate us and our values. Many of course do not, but sadly they are not who catch or make the headlines. I find them very rigid, and set in their ways. We have an athlete who is Muslim on the woman's team who covers her head because of her religion. I watched an interview with her, she proclaimed her religion came first if I remember correctly. I find that radical. My family, my country, my friends, my neighbors come before my religion. My religion is dead last on my list of important issues. I think that is the American way, or should be. Religious fanatics of any stripe are not for me. We see the results everyday from those types.
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seb146
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:09 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Maybe I did paint some with a broad brush, but mostly what I see, what I read and what I have learned is that too many Muslims all over hate us and our values. Many of course do not, but sadly they are not who catch or make the headlines. I find them very rigid, and set in their ways. We have an athlete who is Muslim on the woman's team who covers her head because of her religion. I watched an interview with her, she proclaimed her religion came first if I remember correctly. I find that radical. My family, my country, my friends, my neighbors come before my religion. My religion is dead last on my list of important issues. I think that is the American way, or should be. Religious fanatics of any stripe are not for me. We see the results everyday from those types.


People were screaming when they thought some were telling Tim Tebow to knock off his antics when he scored in football. Because his religion comes first. Why he was playing on the high holy day is for another thread, but it is the same thing, IMO. A woman fencing (women must be completely submissive and subservient to men according to the strictest interpretation of Christianity and Islam) wearing hijab is no different than Tebow taking a knee and making the sign of the cross is no different than a woman in Marsseille wearing a burquini is no different than a man wearing a kippah on the subway.

If Christians and Jews can show outward signs of their faith, why do Muslims have to hide theirs?
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YokoTsuno
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:14 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:

Come to Malaysia & I'll show you Muslim women wearing skirts, shorts, tube tops, dresses with plunging necklines, see-through blouses, sleeveless shirts, bikinis among those wearing the hijab. None of them are harassed or have any legal action taken upon them. As a matter of fact, I can give you an example that befits this website: the CEO of Malaysia AirAsia, Aireen Omar. The picture below is her Twitter profile page. And she is a practicing Muslim.
It is not as simple as you try to picture it. Although both Malaysia and Indonesia are still among the most liberal Muslim-majority nations, Iran was once like that as well. Hard to tell in which direction you are goung to evolve, but Halal trolleys, the Farah Ann Abdul Hadi contraversy, virginity tests for female police officers, latest call for a nation-wide alcohol ban in Indonesia, just to name a few, show that the pressure for religious law is very high. Iran and other examples show that there's absolutely no guarantee other nations can resist such pressures.

About this burkini ban. When Westeners first set foot here, SEA women in rural areas were traditionally topless, a practice found repulsive by the Western Christians, who obviously tried to erradicate such culture. Isn't it ironic that these same Westeners are now trying to do the exact opposite.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:09 am

seb146 wrote:
If Christians and Jews can show outward signs of their faith, why do Muslims have to hide theirs?


Clothing is traditional, not religious. The Burkini is neither.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:12 am

YokoTsuno wrote:
[a practice found repulsive by the Western Christians, who obviously tried to erradicate such culture. Isn't it ironic that these same Westeners are now trying to do the exact opposite.


One more resin why religious feelings are best ignored. Religious freedom is also my right to be free from religion.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
An767
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:26 am

So are they going to ban overweight men and women from wearing speedos and bikinis aswell, as that is offensive in my eyes. If a person chooses to cover up from the sun, whats the issue. It may not even be a burkini or a muslim wearing it
AN767
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seb146
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
If Christians and Jews can show outward signs of their faith, why do Muslims have to hide theirs?


Clothing is traditional, not religious. The Burkini is neither.

Best regards
Thomas


Actually, it is. Look up "swimsuit police."

The Church (Christian) deemed that the body is to be shamed. No woman is to show their breasts. Because the Christian Church says. Exhibit A: Janet Jackson's nip slip. Exhibit B: Breast feeding.

It seems people are only offended when heavy men, heavy women or Muslims wear what they want to the beach.

There is a clothing optional beach near San Francisco we have been to a few times. There is a 70+ year old woman doing yoga wearing only sunscreen and sun glasses. As repulsive as that combination is, so what? She was doing what she wanted. Good for her. Not my business. There were clothed rock climbers there too. So what? They didn't care. We didn't care.
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HGL
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:22 am

tommy1808 wrote:
The Burkini is neither

Which at least disproves the theory held by many that Muslims can not be innovative. It also disproves the notion that Muslims don't wish to integrate. They have sought to do the same sort of things that Europeans do: spend some time with their family at the beach. But because they are not ready to strip off to the skimpiest of garments they are to be excluded and punished. So much for integration.

tommy1808 wrote:
Religious freedom is also my right to be free from religion.

How does someone else choosing to wear something impose religion on you? No one is forcing you to adopt their choice of dress or their values. But plenty of people want to impose their (supposedly secular) beliefs on these women. But of course, the tyranny of political correctness is much more important than allowing women freedom of choice. If these were not Muslim women choosing to dress in a way they feel comfortable with, no one would be making an issue out of it.
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pvjin
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:41 am

Which at least disproves the theory held by many that Muslims can not be innovative. It also disproves the notion that Muslims don't wish to integrate.


No, it really doesn't disprove or prove anything. A couple of women wearing a burkini doesn't represent the entire European Muslim population.

What I would call an actually meaningful way of measuring the integration of Muslims would be things like employment and crime rate, neither of which are looking very good overall.

. If these were not Muslim women choosing to dress in a way they feel comfortable with, no one would be making an issue out of it.


Again, who says the women get to choose? Last time I checked Islam teaches that this big God guy is dictating everything one can and can't do, and he seems very biased towards men. From a rational viewpoint burkini an burka are both impractical and ugly, nobody would use such things if they weren't brainwashed to believe that otherwise they'll go to hell, or forced by their male relatives.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:31 am

An767 wrote:
So are they going to ban overweight men and women from wearing speedos and bikinis aswell, as that is offensive in my eyes.


you get to chose what you wear every day, you don´t get to chose your body every day.

HGL wrote:
Which at least disproves the theory held by many that Muslims can not be innovative. It also disproves the notion that Muslims don't wish to integrate.


In the same sense i would integrate into Saudi Arabien society by wearing gloves when shaking a woman´s hand. Aka not at all.

They have sought to do the same sort of things that Europeans do: spend some time with their family at the beach.


I am sure they can find a private beach that caters to their insanity.

But because they are not ready to strip off to the skimpiest of garments they are to be excluded and punished. So much for integration.


When i can go swimming nude on a Saudi Arabien beach, embrace married women friend with a long hug to say hello and shake woman´s hand, that is exactly when culture stops being a function of geography.

tommy1808 wrote:
Religious freedom is also my right to be free from religion.

How does someone else choosing to wear something impose religion on you?


I have the right to be free of their religion, not just from having it imposed on me. And it is pretty naive to think that accepting religious bullshit has no real consequences for my life. I can´t marry my two girlfriends because of this harmless religious bullshit.If we ever decided to have children the legal real live situation will be a nightmare. Because of that "harmless" religion.....

But of course, the tyranny of political correctness is much more important than allowing women freedom of choice.


If these were not Muslim women choosing to dress in a way they feel comfortable with, no one would be making an issue out of it.


If you chose your dress because of religious believes, you are certainly not free to chose. If you chose to wear the same outfit as sun protection, that is a free choice.

On top of that, seeing real, normal, non-photo-shopped people on beaches and elsewhere is very healthy for children, learning to be ashamed of ones body is not. Teaching children to be ashamed of their body is child abuse.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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HGL
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:18 am

tommy1808 wrote:
I have the right to be free of their religion

You are free of their religion. No one forces you to accept their beliefs, their customs or their manners. They are not in any way denying you the right to go about your life in the way that you choose. But if you are insisting that your right to "be free of their religion" means that you get to dictate what they can do you are surely at odds with the Grundgesetz of your country, particularly Articles 3 and 4. Or do those articles only apply to those who share the same views as you?

And what does Saudi Arabia have to do with the price of Rollmops? Here we are talking about "civilised" Europe where personal freedom is enshrined in Constitutions and where non of these women have been shown to be engaging in acts contrary to order or public morality (yes, that's another term used in your Grundgesetz).
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:05 am

HGL wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I have the right to be free of their religion

You are free of their religion. i].


Nope. I am not.

HGL wrote:
But if you are insisting that your right to "be free of their religion" means that you get to dictate what they can do you are surely at odds with the Grundgesetz of your country, particularly Articles 3 and 4. Or do those articles only apply to those who share the same views as you?


Actually you are free in your worldview, and Religion is just being one of those. It is legally perfectly acceptable to prevent stern political extremists from certain jobs, or being in public service at all, and limiting public displays of their worldview severely. The fact that the same doesn´t apply to religious bullshit, and that they get much more leeway in just about everything, clearly demonstrates that religion is oppressive to non-religious people just by existing in the public space, even in today´s fairly secular societies.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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HGL
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:38 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Nope. I am not.

So when was Article 2 repealed? The law in Germany (as in other countries) does provide for protection of all its citizens, regardless of religious, political or philosophical beliefs, in so far that those views do not lead to breaches of the law, order, public morality and are not contrary to the aims and purpose of the Grundgesetz. It is a tad histrionic to say that you are not free just because someone else chooses to wear something that you don't like. It's not as if you are being forced to wear it.

And if you believe that public nudity is so desirable, try bonking on a table in the restaurant of the Vierjahreszeiten. Then you'll see how much your freedom is curtailed, without even needing to buy a ticket from Saudia.
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:37 pm

mham001 wrote:
In the US, the reason we have been told for decades is because of population control. We didn't ahve enough resources to maintain our birthrates and for the sake of the world, needed to stop making babies. I was indoctrinated with this from an early age in the 60's and this did lead to a decline in the birth rates of US whites, only.

Now, we are being told, by the very same people, that we need to continue to let in masses of brown immigrants.



Please don't take this the wrong way, but your post seems to be overflowing with fear. You blame a well documented trend across many cultures, countries, ethnicities, timeframes, etc... that when infant mortality plunges, incomes and wealth rises, the birthrate also plunges. Instead, you seem to try to pin the blame that some academics "fooled" white people into having less children for some "greater good", and now all of a sudden, white people are being forced to accept "brown immigrants" to maintain it's growing economy. You're positing that had white immigrants ignored scientists and kept having 4 or 5 babies each, all would be well on the American landscape.

You do realize that many white immigrants as well as Asian immigrants were demonized long before the USA had to worry about "brown immigrants" right?

This is the fear I see regularly in America these days. People who still think this is 1960. When I see this fear I always ask these people to go visit a kindergarten class today in any urban area / suburban area. In the top 35 metro areas, white kids are about 40% to 60% non-white. Even nationally, it's a 50/50 split. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cge.asp

Every generation we seem to lament the constant change America goes thru. From hating Chinese railroad workers, to hating the Italian, to "no Irish need apply", to non-interacial marriages for African American or Asian Americans with white women, to today's Muslims. Somehow America copes and thrives, wave after wave, after wave, of immigrants. Hopefully, we can help the indigenous native peoples better in the coming century than we have in the past two centuries. But what do I know, my own family has only been here in America for 110+ years. *shrug*
 
tommy1808
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:57 pm

HGL wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Nope. I am not.

So when was Article 2 repealed?


That is exactly my point. Apparently it doesn't violate Article 2 of the German constitution to deny someone a job because he hold political views that are considered radical, nor does it violate the European convention of human rights. This is regardless of them actually bringing their views into the workplace or not.
Therefor I see no reason not to apply the same to religious views. The definition of radical from the dictionary is:

thoroughgoing or extreme, especially as regards change from accepted or traditional forms


Hence wearing a burkini is radical and apparently that is enough to warrant consequences, if other people are uncomfortable with that.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I have the right to be free of their religion, not just from having it imposed on me. And it is pretty naive to think that accepting religious bullshit has no real consequences for my life. I can´t marry my two girlfriends because of this harmless religious bullshit.If we ever decided to have children the legal real live situation will be a nightmare. Because of that "harmless" religion.....

best regards
Thomas


That sucks, strange that we now allow gay marriage which is heavily frowned on in the bible but won't allow multiple marriages which were pretty popular back in biblical times. I don't see any reason why a man or woman can't marry more than a single person at a time.

It's a pity you're not a Muslim refugee with two wives, in Norway at least this isn't a problem and is catered for.
 
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:33 pm

seb146 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Maybe I did paint some with a broad brush, but mostly what I see, what I read and what I have learned is that too many Muslims all over hate us and our values. Many of course do not, but sadly they are not who catch or make the headlines. I find them very rigid, and set in their ways. We have an athlete who is Muslim on the woman's team who covers her head because of her religion. I watched an interview with her, she proclaimed her religion came first if I remember correctly. I find that radical. My family, my country, my friends, my neighbors come before my religion. My religion is dead last on my list of important issues. I think that is the American way, or should be. Religious fanatics of any stripe are not for me. We see the results everyday from those types.


People were screaming when they thought some were telling Tim Tebow to knock off his antics when he scored in football. Because his religion comes first. Why he was playing on the high holy day is for another thread, but it is the same thing, IMO. A woman fencing (women must be completely submissive and subservient to men according to the strictest interpretation of Christianity and Islam) wearing hijab is no different than Tebow taking a knee and making the sign of the cross is no different than a woman in Marsseille wearing a burquini is no different than a man wearing a kippah on the subway.

If Christians and Jews can show outward signs of their faith, why do Muslims have to hide theirs?


In France, there are a lot of Jews. They used to not wear a kippah. Now, some religious ones wear it, in direct response to more and more Muslims wearing religious signs. Christians, well, there is no requirement to wear anything, and even priests are usually not visible in the street (in Italy, for example, they are often visible).
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:44 pm

HGL wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I have the right to be free of their religion

You are free of their religion. No one forces you to accept their beliefs, their customs or their manners. They are not in any way denying you the right to go about your life in the way that you choose. But if you are insisting that your right to "be free of their religion" means that you get to dictate what they can do you are surely at odds with the Grundgesetz of your country, particularly Articles 3 and 4. Or do those articles only apply to those who share the same views as you?

And what does Saudi Arabia have to do with the price of Rollmops? Here we are talking about "civilised" Europe where personal freedom is enshrined in Constitutions and where non of these women have been shown to be engaging in acts contrary to order or public morality (yes, that's another term used in your Grundgesetz).


The problem is that their beliefs are incompatible with our way of life. If we let them spread (the beliefs, not the people), the day they are in the majority is the day our way of life disappears, and our freedom to not follow their beliefs with it. Like in Saudi Arabia.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:17 am

Aesma wrote:
HGL wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I have the right to be free of their religion

You are free of their religion. No one forces you to accept their beliefs, their customs or their manners. They are not in any way denying you the right to go about your life in the way that you choose. But if you are insisting that your right to "be free of their religion" means that you get to dictate what they can do you are surely at odds with the Grundgesetz of your country, particularly Articles 3 and 4. Or do those articles only apply to those who share the same views as you?

And what does Saudi Arabia have to do with the price of Rollmops? Here we are talking about "civilised" Europe where personal freedom is enshrined in Constitutions and where non of these women have been shown to be engaging in acts contrary to order or public morality (yes, that's another term used in your Grundgesetz).


The problem is that their beliefs are incompatible with our way of life. If we let them spread (the beliefs, not the people), the day they are in the majority is the day our way of life disappears, and our freedom to not follow their beliefs with it. Like in Saudi Arabia.


Mennonites and Amish are incompatible with our way of life too. Nuns in the United States have a dress code incompatible with our way of life. So what? Are you offended if you see a nun in a full habit on the Jersey Shore? Are you offended if you see a Mennonite woman in full dress with head scarf at Venice?
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:45 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Maybe I did paint some with a broad brush, but mostly what I see, what I read and what I have learned is that too many Muslims all over hate us and our values. Many of course do not, but sadly they are not who catch or make the headlines. I find them very rigid, and set in their ways. We have an athlete who is Muslim on the woman's team who covers her head because of her religion. I watched an interview with her, she proclaimed her religion came first if I remember correctly. I find that radical. My family, my country, my friends, my neighbors come before my religion. My religion is dead last on my list of important issues. I think that is the American way, or should be. Religious fanatics of any stripe are not for me. We see the results everyday from those types.

Every Muslim person I've known has been exactly the opposite of what you paint. While undoubtedly there are some nutcases, you can't pretend those types exist across every faith (and lack of faith, as most atheists I know are pretty bloody obnoxious).

Also, so what if HER faith comes first? That's her problem. Not yours.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:06 am

pvjin wrote:
Last time I checked Islam teaches that this big God guy is dictating everything one can and can't do, and he seems very biased towards men.

Perhaps you should check once more. Islam is more nuanced that simply saying what you can and can't do (which by the way, to a certain extent every legal system in the world does).

Broadly speaking, Sharī`ah divides all acts into five categories: those which are obligatory (wājib); those that are recommended (mandūb); acts that may be considered neutral and to which Divine Law is indifferent (mubāh); acts that are abominable or reprehensible (makrūh); and those that are forbidden (harām). While acts that are wājib include daily prayer, and acts that are harām include murder and theft, this means that, contrary to popular though ill-informed opinion, Muslims have a great deal of freedom to choose in their daily lives. The idea that every moment of their day is spent in fear of infringing some direct order is nonsense.

And Muslims, like everyone else, are free to seek opinions and guidance if they so choose. Just as you might consult a lawyer or financial adviser but be free to follow your own judgement, so a Muslim can seek a professional opinion in the form of a fatwā. The fatwā is not binding. It is an informed opinion given that you are free to follow or not. Only a judge can impose a binding decision.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:46 am

seb146 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
HGL wrote:
You are free of their religion. No one forces you to accept their beliefs, their customs or their manners. They are not in any way denying you the right to go about your life in the way that you choose. But if you are insisting that your right to "be free of their religion" means that you get to dictate what they can do you are surely at odds with the Grundgesetz of your country, particularly Articles 3 and 4. Or do those articles only apply to those who share the same views as you?

And what does Saudi Arabia have to do with the price of Rollmops? Here we are talking about "civilised" Europe where personal freedom is enshrined in Constitutions and where non of these women have been shown to be engaging in acts contrary to order or public morality (yes, that's another term used in your Grundgesetz).


The problem is that their beliefs are incompatible with our way of life. If we let them spread (the beliefs, not the people), the day they are in the majority is the day our way of life disappears, and our freedom to not follow their beliefs with it. Like in Saudi Arabia.


Mennonites and Amish are incompatible with our way of life too. Nuns in the United States have a dress code incompatible with our way of life. So what? Are you offended if you see a nun in a full habit on the Jersey Shore? Are you offended if you see a Mennonite woman in full dress with head scarf at Venice?


I'm not offended by nuns because I know very well it's their choice, with years of reflection (I have nuns in my family). Not that I approve.

And nuns aren't exactly becoming more common.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:13 pm

seb146 wrote:
Mennonites and Amish are incompatible with our way of life too. Nuns in the United States have a dress code incompatible with our way of life. So what? Are you offended if you see a nun in a full habit on the Jersey Shore? Are you offended if you see a Mennonite woman in full dress with head scarf at Venice?


Really, Mennonite and Armish have been living peacefully in the US for hundreds of years, in the communities they live in they are generally in the majority, when was the last time a person for either community committed a terrorist act? Mennonites and Armish are more like us than Muslims are.

And nuns, have you ever seen a nun at the beach? They don't dress like they used to except for special occasions, most just wear normal clothes like most women. A lady I know has a sister who is a nun, she goes to the beach in a swimsuit.

There a group where I live called smiths friends, they have huge families, 6 plus kids, they are ultra religious but they keep to themselves, they don't attempt to force there way of life onto the rest of the community. They don't ask for any special treatment or dispensation for there lifestyle.
 
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:34 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Mennonites and Amish are incompatible with our way of life too. Nuns in the United States have a dress code incompatible with our way of life. So what? Are you offended if you see a nun in a full habit on the Jersey Shore? Are you offended if you see a Mennonite woman in full dress with head scarf at Venice?


Really, Mennonite and Armish have been living peacefully in the US for hundreds of years, in the communities they live in they are generally in the majority, when was the last time a person for either community committed a terrorist act? Mennonites and Armish are more like us than Muslims are.

And nuns, have you ever seen a nun at the beach? They don't dress like they used to except for special occasions, most just wear normal clothes like most women. A lady I know has a sister who is a nun, she goes to the beach in a swimsuit.

There a group where I live called smiths friends, they have huge families, 6 plus kids, they are ultra religious but they keep to themselves, they don't attempt to force there way of life onto the rest of the community. They don't ask for any special treatment or dispensation for there lifestyle.


Two things you are saying are not true:

1. All Muslims are terrorists.
2. All Muslims want every American to convert to Islam.

Both are false. There are groups in the Middle East who do want those things but look at reality. Look at all of the acts of terrorism on American soil under the current president. Look at the number of forced conversions in the United States by Muslims period.

Also, consider this: people go fully clothed to beaches all the time. We were just at Ocean Beach in San Francisco two weeks ago. Fully dressed people walking on the shore. They must have been terrorists, right?
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:37 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
There a group where I live called smiths friends, they have huge families, 6 plus kids, they are ultra religious but they keep to themselves, they don't attempt to force there way of life onto the rest of the community. They don't ask for any special treatment or dispensation for there lifestyle.


How on earth is wearing a burkini attempting to force their (note spelling) way of life on anyone? Its just a frikkin' swimsuit, no different from a wet suit.

But - as usual - it is women who cop the flak from laws made by men. If a women dresses too provocatively then, according to many men, she is inviting rape.

Some women prefer to be modest - Muslim or not - and if a woman can't wear a burkini at the beach that means that she can't go to the beach. Not much of a choice.

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-an ... qwx95.html

"Non-Muslims flock to buy burkinis as French bans raise profile of the modest swimwear style

"I am a non-Muslim southern Californian woman. I am a skin cancer survivor, which means I can't get out in the sun [in a regular swimsuit]."


So should that melanoma sufferer not be able to go to the beach?

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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:53 pm

HGL wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Last time I checked Islam teaches that this big God guy is dictating everything one can and can't do, and he seems very biased towards men.

Perhaps you should check once more. Islam is more nuanced that simply saying what you can and can't do (which by the way, to a certain extent every legal system in the world does).

Broadly speaking, Sharī`ah divides all acts into five categories: those which are obligatory (wājib); those that are recommended (mandūb); acts that may be considered neutral and to which Divine Law is indifferent (mubāh); acts that are abominable or reprehensible (makrūh); and those that are forbidden (harām). While acts that are wājib include daily prayer, and acts that are harām include murder and theft, this means that, contrary to popular though ill-informed opinion, Muslims have a great deal of freedom to choose in their daily lives. The idea that every moment of their day is spent in fear of infringing some direct order is nonsense.

And Muslims, like everyone else, are free to seek opinions and guidance if they so choose. Just as you might consult a lawyer or financial adviser but be free to follow your own judgement, so a Muslim can seek a professional opinion in the form of a fatwā. The fatwā is not binding. It is an informed opinion given that you are free to follow or not. Only a judge can impose a binding decision.


For all I care any religion that tells premarital sex, eating pork and drinking alcohol will send me to hell is BS.

I'm not saying Islam itself is that much worse than Christianity (apart from restrictions on pork and alcohol), however most clearly even followers of mainstream Islam do generally take their religion more seriously and follow teachings of Quran more fundamentally than followers of mainstream Christianity. I mean, nowadays the vast majority of western Christians don't give a damn about teachings regarding premarital sex and such.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:23 pm

pvjin wrote:
HGL wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Last time I checked Islam teaches that this big God guy is dictating everything one can and can't do, and he seems very biased towards men.

Perhaps you should check once more. Islam is more nuanced that simply saying what you can and can't do (which by the way, to a certain extent every legal system in the world does).

Broadly speaking, Sharī`ah divides all acts into five categories: those which are obligatory (wājib); those that are recommended (mandūb); acts that may be considered neutral and to which Divine Law is indifferent (mubāh); acts that are abominable or reprehensible (makrūh); and those that are forbidden (harām). While acts that are wājib include daily prayer, and acts that are harām include murder and theft, this means that, contrary to popular though ill-informed opinion, Muslims have a great deal of freedom to choose in their daily lives. The idea that every moment of their day is spent in fear of infringing some direct order is nonsense.

And Muslims, like everyone else, are free to seek opinions and guidance if they so choose. Just as you might consult a lawyer or financial adviser but be free to follow your own judgement, so a Muslim can seek a professional opinion in the form of a fatwā. The fatwā is not binding. It is an informed opinion given that you are free to follow or not. Only a judge can impose a binding decision.


For all I care any religion that tells premarital sex, eating pork and drinking alcohol will send me to hell is BS.


The Bible says all of that, so.....

A general question for anyone:

How is a woman covered from head to toe at a beach making your life worse?
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:37 pm

The Bible says all of that, so.....


I don't think it does, after all even Jews who follow the old testament are allowed to drink, and Christians who obey the new testament over the old are also allowed to eat pork.
A general question for anyone:

How is a woman covered from head to toe at a beach making your life worse?


Really to me it just represents the wider incompatibility of traditional Islam with western way of life, an incompatibility that is leading to things like terrorism, poor integration of European Muslims which in turn leads to more crime and unemployment. All of these things make my life worse, if not directly then through increasing security hassle and more social costs.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:39 pm

Quote]For all I care any religion that tells premarital sex, eating pork and drinking alcohol will send me to hell is BS.

I'm not saying Islam itself is that much worse than Christianity (apart from restrictions on pork and alcohol), however most clearly even followers of mainstream Islam do generally take their religion more seriously and follow teachings of Quran more fundamentally than followers of mainstream Christianity. I mean, nowadays the vast majority of western Christians don't give a damn about teachings regarding premarital sex and such.[/quote]

Of course you failed to mention that pork is also forbidden in the Jewish religion ( scared to be called an anti-Semite) :) cows also for Hindus.

Stealing, adultery are also forbidden in all religions, if we follow your way of thinking, we should robbing banks and having affairs with hundred of women.

BTW, can someone explain to me how wearing any type of swimsuit, as long as it is decent, can be offensive?
How wearing any type of clothing is an invitation to force a religion on people?
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:53 pm

Of course you failed to mention that pork is also forbidden in the Jewish religion ( scared to be called an anti-Semite) :) cows also for Hindus.


"I don't think it does, after all even Jews who follow the old testament are allowed to drink, and Christians who obey the new testament over the old are also allowed to eat pork. "

I would say this sentence of mine rather clearly implies that Jews aren't allowed to eat pork either. But yes, Judaism and Hinduism are pretty dumb too in that sense.


Stealing, adultery are also forbidden in all religions, if we follow your way of thinking, we should robbing banks and having affairs with hundred of women.


I don't need a religion to know what's right and what isn't. Generally speaking I don't think having sex with a hundred willing women is unethical, although I would prefer a stable marriage over that as sex without love gets boring, and marriage as an institution is beneficial for the wider society. In fact I agree with Abrahamic religions emphasis on marriage, although I don't think premarital sex should be still seen as a sin even if a stable relationship should be encouraged.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:27 pm

pvjin wrote:
Really to me it just represents the wider incompatibility of traditional Islam with western way of life, an incompatibility that is leading to things like terrorism, poor integration of European Muslims which in turn leads to more crime and unemployment. All of these things make my life worse, if not directly then through increasing security hassle and more social costs.


She wears it to go to the beach. How is that "incompatible" with the western way of life?

She prefers to dress modestly at the beach. It's called freedom of personal choice which - I thought - was a western value and Marks and Spencer in the UK have decided there's money in it - another western value - LOL.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... range.html

"Not just any burkini, it's an M&S burkini: The ultimate proof Britain is truly multicultural as Marks splashes out on a Muslim swimwear range

As well as appealing to Muslim women in the UK, the designs may prove popular with women worried about the damage that exposure to the sun could do to the skin."


For women from Australia and New Zealand, that last can be important because of the hole n the ozone layer above us and we are constantly being told that too much exposure to the sun is dangerous - see melanoma, above.

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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:44 pm

I usually wear a shirt at the beach as well as shorts.

I actually don't care if anyone finds that offensive.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:48 pm

pvjin wrote:
The Bible says all of that, so.....


I don't think it does, after all even Jews who follow the old testament are allowed to drink, and Christians who obey the new testament over the old are also allowed to eat pork.
A general question for anyone:

How is a woman covered from head to toe at a beach making your life worse?


Really to me it just represents the wider incompatibility of traditional Islam with western way of life, an incompatibility that is leading to things like terrorism, poor integration of European Muslims which in turn leads to more crime and unemployment. All of these things make my life worse, if not directly then through increasing security hassle and more social costs.


So a woman fully covered at the beach is a step away from suicide bombings? wow.... just.... wow....

And, yes, Christians are so enamored by one verse in the Old Testament laws that they completely ignore the other laws in the same book. Like no eating pork, dressing modestly, no divorce, no children out of wedlock, etc.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:05 pm

She wears it to go to the beach. How is that "incompatible" with the western way of life?


The fact she has to wear it or she will be committing sin is incompatible with western way of life.

For women from Australia and New Zealand, that last can be important because of the hole n the ozone layer above us and we are constantly being told that too much exposure to the sun is dangerous - see melanoma, above.


If women in Australia and New Zealand start wearing burka all the time like many Muslim women do they'll soon be developing cancer and other serious diseases because of vitamin D deficiency, like a lot of Muslim women in countries with plenty of sunlight.

So a woman fully covered at the beach is a step away from suicide bombings? wow.... just.... wow....


Yes, radical Islam breeds both suicide bombings and women who think Allah will punish them if they show skin outside.
And, yes, Christians are so enamored by one verse in the Old Testament laws that they completely ignore the other laws in the same book. Like no eating pork, dressing modestly, no divorce, no children out of wedlock, etc.


Yep, stupid BS should be ignored. When will more Muslims learn to ignore stupid BS in their holy book? I saw some documentary about Muslims in Central Asia who drunk alcohol, more Muslims should be like them.

I sincerely believe Islam forbidding alcohol and drugs is one major factor for instability and war in many parts of Islamic world. In western world the dissatisfied and marginalized youth simply gets drunk or uses drugs, in some parts of Islamic world they turn into religious radicalism and start shooting or blowing up things.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:06 am

pvjin wrote:
The fact she has to wear it or she will be committing sin is incompatible with western way of life.

So freedom of choice is incompatible with the western way of life? Diversity is incompatible with the western way of life? The western way of life depends upon uniformity? Forcing women not to wear something they would prefer to is the epitome of the western way of life? Poor west if it scared of a dozen women in a burkini.

pvjin wrote:
Yes, radical Islam breeds both suicide bombings and women who think Allah will punish them if they show skin outside

Secularism breeds people who lack respect for others, feel it perfectly acceptable to rob elderly women and have a tendency to shoot people because it's Monday. Secularism has also produced the Baader-Meinhof gang and other terrorist organisations, while some States that positively boasted their secular credentials were also the most repressive, and we don't even need to leave Europe to find them.

pvjin wrote:
In western world the dissatisfied and marginalized youth simply gets drunk or uses drugs,

They also tend to randomly assault people and damage other people's property. Alcohol is a major contributory factor in domestic violence.

In connection with the next point, heavy alcohol consumption can inhibit the absorption of vitamin D. it can do so in two ways. Heavy drinkers may rely on alcohol as a source of calories, yet they are empty calories providing virtually no nutritional value. Secondly, alcohol damages the lining of the intestinal tract, reducing the ability of the intestines to function normally in absorbing nutrients, including vitamin D.

Vitamin D can only be useful to the body after it has been modified in the liver and kidneys. Alcohol abuse’s overload can eventually result in a number of liver disorders, including fatty liver, alcoholic hepatitis and cirrhosis. This interferes with the conversion of vitamin D into active metabolites. While not advocating total abstinence, I would suggest less enthusiasm for alcohol as a solution to problems in the Middle East.

pvjin wrote:
they'll soon be developing cancer and other serious diseases because of vitamin D deficiency

Your concern for the health of women is touching but misdirected. Too much vitamin D can be harmful because it increases calcium levels, which can lead to calcinosis (the deposit of calcium salts in soft tissues, such as the kidneys, heart, or lungs) and hypercalcemia (high blood levels of calcium). While adequate levels of vitamin D may help reduce the risk of some cancers developing, it is possible that people with higher vitamin D intakes or blood levels are more likely to have other healthy behaviours. It may be one of these other behaviour, rather than vitamin D intake, that influences cancer risk. Besides, in a western diet vitamin D can be obtained through fatty fish, fish liver oil, and eggs, milk, juices, and breakfast cereals, all of which are in plentiful supply in the shops.
Last edited by HGL on Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:48 am

coolian2 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Maybe I did paint some with a broad brush, but mostly what I see, what I read and what I have learned is that too many Muslims all over hate us and our values. Many of course do not, but sadly they are not who catch or make the headlines. I find them very rigid, and set in their ways. We have an athlete who is Muslim on the woman's team who covers her head because of her religion. I watched an interview with her, she proclaimed her religion came first if I remember correctly. I find that radical. My family, my country, my friends, my neighbors come before my religion. My religion is dead last on my list of important issues. I think that is the American way, or should be. Religious fanatics of any stripe are not for me. We see the results everyday from those types.

Every Muslim person I've known has been exactly the opposite of what you paint. While undoubtedly there are some nutcases, you can't pretend those types exist across every faith (and lack of faith, as most atheists I know are pretty bloody obnoxious).

Also, so what if HER faith comes first? That's her problem. Not yours.



You know the best of Muslims, good for you. You are lucky. More lucky than many others. Some nutcases? Many is how I would put it. We all know there are religious zealots in all religions. That is not an admirable trait to me, just as I find the athlete or anyone of any religion claiming their faith is number one is not healthy, nor good for any religion or people and as we have found out in recent years and in past history, very bloody. Europe is now finding out once again along with the rest of the world, just how good religious extremism is for the social fabric of civilization. It may well be a problem for others besides mine if that religion first mentality becomes widespread once again. I have never known a person who puts religion first before family, friends and country, have you? It would seem an extreme and dangerous belief to me. Not normal in other words.
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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:07 am

pvjin wrote:
If women in Australia and New Zealand start wearing burka all the time like many Muslim women do they'll soon be developing cancer and other serious diseases because of vitamin D deficiency, like a lot of Muslim women in countries with plenty of sunlight.


Oh, don't be silly. Who said wearing a burka, and who said wearing it all the time?

We're wearing about a burkini - worn at the beach.

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Re: Several French mayors ban the burkini from their towns' beaches

Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:14 am

pvjin wrote:
She wears it to go to the beach. How is that "incompatible" with the western way of life?


The fact she has to wear it or she will be committing sin is incompatible with western way of life.


But wearing a form fitting, curve revealing piece of cloth is just as modest? They are pretty much wet suits.

Also, there are plenty of Christians who do not wear next to nothing at the beach. So why the fuss? If it is okay for a Christian woman to wear capri pants and a t-shirt to the beach, why is it so wrong for a Muslim woman to wear a burkini to the beach?

pvjin wrote:
For women from Australia and New Zealand, that last can be important because of the hole n the ozone layer above us and we are constantly being told that too much exposure to the sun is dangerous - see melanoma, above.


If women in Australia and New Zealand start wearing burka all the time like many Muslim women do they'll soon be developing cancer and other serious diseases because of vitamin D deficiency, like a lot of Muslim women in countries with plenty of sunlight.


It is not a national issue. It is a personal issue. These women wearing burkinis are not forcing everyone else to do the same. No one is forcing burkinis on all female beach goers. It sound like you want it the other way around.

pvjin wrote:
So a woman fully covered at the beach is a step away from suicide bombings? wow.... just.... wow....


Yes, radical Islam breeds both suicide bombings and women who think Allah will punish them if they show skin outside.


In places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan where women are not allowed to be educated. Are the burkini clad women screaming at all the nearly nude French women telling them they will burn in the fires for wearing next to nothing?

pvjin wrote:
And, yes, Christians are so enamored by one verse in the Old Testament laws that they completely ignore the other laws in the same book. Like no eating pork, dressing modestly, no divorce, no children out of wedlock, etc.


Yep, stupid BS should be ignored. When will more Muslims learn to ignore stupid BS in their holy book? I saw some documentary about Muslims in Central Asia who drunk alcohol, more Muslims should be like them.

I sincerely believe Islam forbidding alcohol and drugs is one major factor for instability and war in many parts of Islamic world. In western world the dissatisfied and marginalized youth simply gets drunk or uses drugs, in some parts of Islamic world they turn into religious radicalism and start shooting or blowing up things.


Again, alcohol and drug use is a religious issue, not a national issue in places like United States and Canada and France. It has been documented that Saudi royals used to (still do?) come to the United States and drink and buy hookers and use all kinds of drugs, because those things are forbidden by the government, which takes it laws from religious text. As opposed to places where there is separation of religion from government.
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