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DocLightning
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:51 pm

lewis wrote:
There is far more to being gay than the sexual act itself, I never got any satisfaction from having sex with a woman even though the reward (orgasm in this case) was exactly the same.

Your example also does not take into consideration that every single gay individual, even on this board, has explained how sexual attraction to the same gender was there from the first day they can remember. At that point, there is no concept of sex, orgasm, or anything relating to the sexual roles of parents. Heck, I doubt I knew what my penis could be used for at that point in my life.


^This. And I tried so hard to like sex with women. I chose as hard as I could to be straight. Try as I might...I am sexually attracted to men. Yes, the occasional woman has caught my eye, but having a burning desire to rip a woman's clothes off and go to town with her? Never once. With men? Yes.

I have personally noticed that women seem to be more flexible. I think that more women fall near the middle of the spectrum than men, who tend to fall at either end. There are certainly men all along the spectrum, but there are spikes at either end. But I think women have a smoother spectrum.

The problem is that there is no good experimental way to quantify sexuality, and that is what is required to do any decent research.
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zckls04
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:58 pm

pu wrote:
Help me understand....what if they discovered being gay comes from something they can pinpoint in the womb, in childhood or otherwise in the post-birth environment. Or they prove its entirely genetic. You really claim this can only be of interest to gay haters? As you say, if it's genetic, parents will be able to select/deselect sexuality soon enough...but isn't the same true if it's environmental? Or a mix of the two?


I agree with you completely that this is of interest, though I do think you should try and be a little empathetic towards those who have heard this debate a hundred times before and each time seen it lead to the same unsavory conclusion. Add to that the fact that it's an editorial (NOT a study) in a conservative, non-peer-reviewed publication which self-describes as "applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to critical issues of public policy", and can you start to understand the hostility? You may have genuine scientific interest, but the vast majority of those citing this study have a different agenda.

That said, I've always found the idea that sexuality is genetic more of a political slogan than a fundamental truth. It is after all fairly unlikely based on our understanding of practically every other area of heritability. There are relatively few purely genetic traits, and there's no good evidence that sexuality is one of them. Regardless, we're light years ahead of the point where we can pinpoint a cause, genetic or otherwise. There's a larger debate to be had about the moral and social implications of selecting for particular traits, but I suspect disease and abnormalities will be the characteristics we're interested in, at least initially. For now, this article doesn't really tell us anything new- it's just good fodder for the religious right (which is of course the point).
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LAX772LR
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:19 pm

DocLightning wrote:
I have personally noticed that women seem to be more flexible. I think that more women fall near the middle of the spectrum than men, who tend to fall at either end. There are certainly men all along the spectrum, but there are spikes at either end. But I think women have a smoother spectrum.

I've always found that to be more cultural than anything.

Western society often encourages women to experiment with other women, with and without the involvement of males.

The inverse is almost never the case. So there's the social norm to overcome.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
luckyone
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:37 pm

lewis wrote:
Since you have that opinion in general, do you think you could ever be gay and actually enjoy both having intercourse and being in a relationship with another guy if:

If only anecdotally, the following statement usually puts an end to the discussion of sexuality being a choice one makes: "Ok fine. On the count of three, choose to be gay. And by gay I mean attracted to, and enjoy intimacy with a man (not enduring it for sociopolitical reasons a la prison where sex is violence and control). Go. I'm timing you."
 
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OA412
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:56 pm

luckyone wrote:
and I actively tried to convince myself otherwise for a good ten years

lewis wrote:
There is far more to being gay than the sexual act itself, I never got any satisfaction from having sex with a woman even though the reward (orgasm in this case) was exactly the same.

DocLightning wrote:
^This. And I tried so hard to like sex with women. I chose as hard as I could to be straight. Try as I might...I am sexually attracted to men. Yes, the occasional woman has caught my eye, but having a burning desire to rip a woman's clothes off and go to town with her? Never once. With men? Yes.

I'm always fascinated by the number of gay men who tried to live a hetero life versus those who never bothered, at least not sexually. I'm in the camp that never bothered to do anything with women. I admitted my reality to myself when I was about 16, accepted it, and never bothered to try and have sex with women because try as I might up to that point, I just couldn't find myself sexually attracted to them. Am I curious? Yes I often am, but only to see what it's like to be with a woman sexually. Sort of a bucket-list thing. :) Otherwise, I know I'm sexually attracted exclusively to men. I find a lot of women attractive, but not in a "I can't wait to get her naked" sort of way.
lewis wrote:
Your example also does not take into consideration that every single gay individual, even on this board, has explained how sexual attraction to the same gender was there from the first day they can remember. At that point, there is no concept of sex, orgasm, or anything relating to the sexual roles of parents. Heck, I doubt I knew what my penis could be used for at that point in my life.

Same here. I had no idea about sex, but I already understood that I was interested in boys and not girls.
zckls04 wrote:
Add to that the fact that it's an editorial (NOT a study) in a conservative, non-peer-reviewed publication which self-describes as "applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to critical issues of public policy", and can you start to understand the hostility?

Indeed. That's the problem as I stated in my other post. I think that overall it's actually a very interesting topic, and I actually believe that OP is genuinely curious, but the vast, vast majority of those supposedly interested in understanding this issue, aren't interested in it from a scientific perspective.
zckls04 wrote:
You may have genuine scientific interest, but the vast majority of those citing this study have a different agenda.

Exactly. One person I saw share it on Facebook said they felt sorry for those with genuine gender identity issues, but it's not supported by science. Note this is not someone with a scientific background, but he's now using this study as scientific evidence to prove his preconceived notions about Transgender individuals, and to feel better about himself for being in favor of the bathroom bans.
DocLightning wrote:
I have personally noticed that women seem to be more flexible. I think that more women fall near the middle of the spectrum than men, who tend to fall at either end. There are certainly men all along the spectrum, but there are spikes at either end. But I think women have a smoother spectrum.

That's been my experience as well.
lewis wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Really I always though Doc came across as a screaming queen right from the get go, it comes out in a lot of his post.


Well imagine how you come across as well and then think about why people on this forums react to you the way they do, or how they react to the fact that a person that comes off like that in a public forum is also responsible for bringing up children in this world. Such a shame.

This! Speaking about issues important to the LGBT community, a community to which Doc belongs, doesn't make him a "screaming queen." It just means he's interested in discussing issues important to him. Here we have a member who constantly professes his heterosexuality and his disapproval of sexual minorities who is nevertheless seemingly obsessed with said minorities and following their every move. It's really odd.
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luckyone
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:46 pm

OA412 wrote:
I'm always fascinated by the number of gay men who tried to live a hetero life versus those who never bothered, at least not sexually. I'm in the camp that never bothered to do anything with women.

I wish I had been in the latter camp. The reasons for my journey involve a homogeneous community of Southern Baptists and Methodists and parents who were/are intimidated by anything they didn't learn before the age of 22 and actively resist anything outside of their comfort zone and as such didn't know any better.
 
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mariner
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:47 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
You very well know why that was, just like in prison, no women, so what do you think happens?


There were women in Sydney from the earliest white settlement. One of the points of the First Fleet was to provide the basis of a population for the new colony.

There is a famously recorded orgy involving many of the prisoners in the First Fleet, and there were Aboriginal women - and please don't sneer at the idea of white men doing it with black women, the convicts didn't really care where they put it.

But still - there was sodomy.

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jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:05 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

Really I always though Doc came across as a screaming queen right from the get go, it comes out in a lot of his post.



Internet can be very deceptive. You might even be a halfway decent human being in real life.
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:47 pm

OMG-- There have been gay F/A's back in the 50's [and probably before] on Pan Am. A friend tells me of the great life they had. I'm gay too and I can't imagine this conversation is taking place. The"Sand Pit" Airlines [ lol, lol] better get over it since they finally decided to offer International Service.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:57 pm

PacificBeach88 wrote:
A.) Why does it matter?
B.) Why do you care?
C.) What difference does it make in today's adult society?

Hey! Don't be sensible.
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pu
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:17 pm

lewis wrote:
There is far more to being gay than the sexual act itself,


This brings up one of the points in the article: not only is sexuality fluid, but so is the definition of gay used in research. A study from the 1950s announced there was a 100% chance that if one brother is gay, the other will be as well. A closer look reveals the study participants were men in prison and the definition of gay was a sexual act.
lewis wrote:
Your example also does not take into consideration that every single gay individual, even on this board, has explained how sexual attraction to the same gender was there from the first day they can remember.

ehhh...this board is a bad sample just like a prison is, in part because it seems that half or more who participate here these days are gay. So it's like studying a gay bar, or a gay pride parade in that these are very sure they're gay, talk about it freely/militantly and are at the extreme pole of the spectrum claiming little to no hetero attraction....there's plenty more in between on the continuum.

Most importantly, identical twins share the same genome, but the number of gay identical twins is small - far more common is one is gay while one is not.

There is obviously an environmental component at work here. For some anyway. *

lewis wrote:
do you think you could ever be gay and actually enjoy both having intercourse and being in a relationship with another guy if:

-You grew up around individuals mostly of your sex only?
-You were brought up by a single mom/dad?
-Any other situation whatsoever?


I don't have a firm opinion about that, but sure it seems that significant factors in the environment could influence sexuality. I watched my two sons grow up and am sure they could have sex with any human of any gender when they were teens, and enjoy it. Maybe they did. I don't think I would enjoy men today, but as you get older sex becomes less of a physical mandate and more of an emotional confort, for me anyway. I don't find men emotionally comforting and their bodies are too much like my own to interest me. However, I sometimes at an airport or wherever think, "That is really a striking looking man." Then I feel very average looking and decide to workout more.

The article mentions a high correlation between non-heteros and child abuse. Whether this is cause or effect or can be both is unknown: again this crosses into the realm of public policy that concerns everyone.

Thanks again, Lewis, I really am surprised at how this thread played out.

panampreflight wrote:
OMG-- There have been gay F/A's back in the 50's [and probably before] on Pan Am. A friend tells me of the great life they had..


That reminds me of one reason I started this thread - it's clear that sexuality is so powerful that it touches a lot more than romantic life. There's obviously a correlation between sexuality and careers sometimes. If we understood ourselves and each other better, we could relate, govern and communicate better...such as gaining a better understanding of how our sexuality might influence our life's work. For instance, I feel that for perhaps the first 5 years everyone should receive the same education, but somewhere around age 10 education needs to be gradually more personalised. Understanding sexuality may have a role here, and I don't mean send the gay boys to hairdresser school and the gay girls to coach sports, I mean understand its role.





Pu.

* http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016 ... ter-birth/
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:51 pm

pu wrote:
Most importantly, identical twins share the same genome, but the number of gay identical twins is small - far more common is one is gay while one is not.


I have read medical articles that say this is not 100% true, at least not as it was understood in the past. If that was so, wouldn't this mean that identical twins are perfect clones of each other, down to having the same fingerprints and all? As far as I know this isn't true.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:08 pm

pu wrote:
Most importantly, identical twins share the same genome, but the number of gay identical twins is small - far more common is one is gay while one is not.

A common misconception, and often used by people who argue that it's not genetic. 1. There's more than one type of "identical twin" depending on how many chorions and amnions are present which provides for different intrauterine environments (for a total of three types of monozygotic, or identical twins). 2. Genes get turned on and off at random during development. It's called epigenetics. You get two copies of genes when you only need one, so one gets randomly turned off, and 3. The genotype/phenotype of identical twins is rarely 100% identical. There are quite a few twin studies discussing this.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:33 pm

luckyone wrote:
pu wrote:
Most importantly, identical twins share the same genome, but the number of gay identical twins is small - far more common is one is gay while one is not.

A common misconception, and often used by people who argue that it's not genetic. 1. There's more than one type of "identical twin" depending on how many chorions and amnions are present which provides for different intrauterine environments (for a total of three types of monozygotic, or identical twins). 2. Genes get turned on and off at random during development. It's called epigenetics. You get two copies of genes when you only need one, so one gets randomly turned off, and 3. The genotype/phenotype of identical twins is rarely 100% identical. There are quite a few twin studies discussing this.


Read the U. California study I linked to please.
Identical twins may be misunderstood commonly, and maybe there is a better terminology. But I am not the one misunderstanding this point in terms of the study I reference. Is it possible your own sexuality means you are motivated to discount any evidence that might disturb your own self image and self understanding? It's quite amazing to me how alleged scientists on both sides of this issue have an axe to grind, it's so influential that knowing the sexuality of published researchers is relevant in evaluating their conclusions.


Pu.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:58 pm

pu wrote:
Read the U. California study I linked to please.

For starters the link wasn't very visible so I didn't see it at first, and was responding solely to your underlined words. Then I did read it. And it doesn't say a thing about the different types of twins. It says there "may" be a reason things happen after birth. May. Unpublished data, that wasn't presented in any detail. In that article it also does not discuss: the age of the twins, offers no comparison to the twins' genetics at birth to prove whether or not these changes were indeed post-partum (ie a control), or where they fell on the three types of identical twins--so sorry not sorry I'm skeptical. It also discusses exactly what I said...epigenetics, which is just a microexpression of genetics, so even if it were a factor of environment...it's still genetic because it's an expression of an existing gene.
pu wrote:
Clearly your own sexuality means you are motivated to discount any evidence that might disturb your own self image and self understanding. It's quite amazing to me how alleged scientists on both sides of this issue have an axe to grind, it's so influential that knowing the sexuality of published researchers is relevant in evaluating their conclusions.

Yes...that is quite clearly what I meant when I discussed the different types of twins and how the different types of pregnancies can result in different genetics. You can see right through me...Honestly I wonder why you're even bothering to ask a question because you rebut every answer given that doesn't coincide with the one you appear to have already contrived.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:29 am

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:

Internet can be very deceptive. You might even be a halfway decent human being in real life.


*deep, manly laugh.*
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pu
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:50 am

luckyone wrote:
Honestly I wonder why you're even bothering to ask a question because you rebut every answer given that doesn't coincide with the one you appear to have already contrived.


I modified my post to form my point about sexuality influencing your opinion as a question, rather than an accusation, shortly after I wrote it and before your reply. I apologize for the criticism. I am not married to a conclusion. Unfortunately for political reasons in the US, it seems many gay men are set to fight any suggestion from published scientists that sexuality has an environmental component.

Professor Ngun is published all over the place with mounting evidence that life experiences, as in post-birth influences, can determine sexuality. Your insistence on calling post-birth changes to the gene markers of sexuality as "still genetic" is technically correct, but it's different than the common understanding of genetic which implies set before birth. A new terminology is perhaps needed but I sense you are arguing over nomenclature rather than admitting the obvious implications of the mounting research.





Pu.
 
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seb146
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:02 am

pu wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Honestly I wonder why you're even bothering to ask a question because you rebut every answer given that doesn't coincide with the one you appear to have already contrived.


I modified my post to form my point about sexuality influencing your opinion as a question, rather than an accusation, shortly after I wrote it and before your reply. I apologize for the criticism. I am not married to a conclusion. Unfortunately for political reasons in the US, it seems many gay men are set to fight any suggestion from published scientists that sexuality has an environmental component.

Professor Ngun is published all over the place with mounting evidence that life experiences, as in post-birth influences, can determine sexuality. Your insistence on calling post-birth changes to the gene markers of sexuality as "still genetic" is technically correct, but it's different than the common understanding of genetic which implies set before birth. A new terminology is perhaps needed but I sense you are arguing over nomenclature rather than admitting the obvious implications of the mounting research.





Pu.


By all accounts, I should be straight. I grew up in evangelical eastern Oregon. Growing up, my peers were convinced that all gays had AIDS and some of my peers even went so far as to suggest that all gays must die. Yet, here I am. Gay as anything. Many of us are. By all accounts, there should be many more gays that grew up in San Francisco or West Hollywood or Miami Beach. Yet, there are many straight people from those places.
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:10 am

luckyone wrote:
As a gay man I'm firmly in the camp that I don't choose what makes my willy stand at attention (and I actively tried to convince myself otherwise for a good ten years), any more than my father chooses to find lemons repugnant on his taste buds.

As a physician, this study is weak, and reeks of the Publish or Perish environment that dominates academic institutions. The article also says nothing about the authors' sources of funding or any declaration or denial of conflicts of interest (red flag number one). The conclusions reached are the psychiatric equivalent (because I'm also a psychiatrist...) of A + B = 42, is loose, to say the least, and contradicts a large body of work. I read the entire thing, and their conclusion can be summarized as such "we see genetic linkage, and biological findings. But we don't think they matter." Their argument is akin to saying "smoking doesn't cause lung cancer because not everyone who smokes develops lung cancer." Both of the writers have a long record of making Trump-like comments regarding matters of sexuality and gender, in that they declare something that is clearly duplicitous and cry foul when they're called out on it.


If it was actually an "academic institution" I might give it a pass, but it's nothing but a rightwing nut job funding sucker. If they don't publish National Enquirer trash consistently, their Tony Perkins (Focus On The Family) type funding dries up.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:15 am

zckls04 wrote:

I agree with you completely that this is of interest, though I do think you should try and be a little empathetic towards those who have heard this debate a hundred times before and each time seen it lead to the same unsavory conclusion.


A "hundred"? That would be worthy of discussion. I've literally seen the same argument now probably 5,000 times. No joke. No lie. No exaggeration. Just ask the average African American how interested they are in their 40s and beyond to "discuss" the latest "study" (non-peer reviewed) about what's "wrong" with the African American community and what "they" need to do to fix it. You learn to spot concern trolls pretty quickly.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:23 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Really I always though Doc came across as a screaming queen right from the get go, it comes out in a lot of his post.


Really? I always thought Doc was one of the very few people on this board I would like to meet up for lunch. I've had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting many docs in my life. Few, have interests outside of their work as Doc does. For a pediatrician to grasp the engineering tech of airfoils, drag, etc.... astounding in my book!

Now, as far as you are concerned KiwiRob, I've always wanted to ask you one thing. What do Kiwis call rednecks in NZ? I love UK, Aussie, NZ, S African english language quirks. Do Kiwis have a term for what we in the USA call "rednecks"? Curious.
 
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pu
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:55 am

seb146 wrote:

By all accounts, I should be straight. I grew up in evangelical eastern Oregon. Growing up, my peers were convinced that all gays had AIDS and some of my peers even went so far as to suggest that all gays must die. Yet, here I am. Gay as anything. Many of us are. By all accounts, there should be many more gays that grew up in San Francisco or West Hollywood or Miami Beach. Yet, there are many straight people from those places.


I've read more published studies today and I think a good response to you, Seb, is that it seems there are clues sexuality may be influenced by post-conception environmental factors experienced by the fetus or possibly by post-birth environmental factors experienced by the child.

It's not necessarily things like did you have an absent father or were you abused or raised in a sexually permissive/restrictive environment. It might be things like the temperature of the womb, mother's health habits during pregnancy or other factors that are not set in DNA at conception, but get influenced sometime later. I don't think anyone is saying sexuality a choice, except Cynthia Nixon, but it very well may be something that can be changed after conception....in my understanding of the literature.






Pu.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:59 am

pu wrote:
I've read more published studies today


What studies? You just "read" them today, you must still have them in your internet history. Which "studies" are these? Post the links to these "studies" you just "read today".
 
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mariner
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:11 am

PacificBeach88 wrote:
What do Kiwis call rednecks in NZ? I love UK, Aussie, NZ, S African english language quirks. Do Kiwis have a term for what we in the USA call "rednecks"? Curious.


I'll jump in here.

In Australia probably "bogan" - meaning a loud, ignorant bloke of lower social status. A "cashed up began" means someone who has made big money, perhaps as a labourer on the minefields, and Bali is sometimes called the Bogan Riviera.

Bogan isn't used so much In NZ, where's it's more likely to be "cow cocky" - a dairy farmer - or more (rarely) a "sheep cocky' - a farmer who runs sheep. "Cocky" is a derivation from cockatoo, in the sense someone who is cock-sure of himself.

"We're in cow cocky country now" means we're way out in the woop-woop - definitely not in Auckland - Image

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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:19 am

mariner wrote:
I'll jump in here.

In Australia probably "bogan" - meaning a loud, ignorant bloke of lower social status. A "cashed up began" means someone who has made big money, perhaps as a labourer on the minefields, and Bali is sometimes called the Bogan Riviera.

Bogan isn't used so much In NZ, where's it's more likely to be "cow cocky" - a dairy farmer - or more (rarely) a "sheep cocky' - a farmer who runs sheep. "Cocky" is a derivation from cockatoo, in the sense someone who is cock-sure of himself.

"We're in cow cocky country now" means we're way out in the woop-woop - definitely not in Auckland - Image

mariner


Thank you! My parents have a place in Bali, and I never understood that term "Bogan Riviera" before. I just figured I was missing something. In the USA, the Florida panhandle is called the "Redneck Riviera". While it's easy to mock these types of places, the FLA panhandle in the past several years has also become the "Spring Break" capital of the eastern USA, where too much alcohol, rapes, and over-doses are part and parcel of the college experience for young Americans.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:34 am

PacificBeach88 wrote:
pu wrote:
I've read more published studies today


What studies? You just "read" them today, you must still have them in your internet history. Which "studies" are these? Post the links to these "studies" you just "read today".


I don't know how to copy my browsing history from my phone to here! But you can find a lot by googling something like " Ngun homosexuality" or by following the links to cited articles in relevant Wikipedia entries like the one called something like 'environmental influences on sexuality ' keeping in mind Wikipedia itself is publicly edited by people like me.

Google the Australian twin study by Bailey et.al or Belskey on diathesis stress.


Pu.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:51 am

pu wrote:
seb146 wrote:

By all accounts, I should be straight. I grew up in evangelical eastern Oregon. Growing up, my peers were convinced that all gays had AIDS and some of my peers even went so far as to suggest that all gays must die. Yet, here I am. Gay as anything. Many of us are. By all accounts, there should be many more gays that grew up in San Francisco or West Hollywood or Miami Beach. Yet, there are many straight people from those places.


I've read more published studies today and I think a good response to you, Seb, is that it seems there are clues sexuality may be influenced by post-conception environmental factors experienced by the fetus or possibly by post-birth environmental factors experienced by the child.

It's not necessarily things like did you have an absent father or were you abused or raised in a sexually permissive/restrictive environment. It might be things like the temperature of the womb, mother's health habits during pregnancy or other factors that are not set in DNA at conception, but get influenced sometime later. I don't think anyone is saying sexuality a choice, except Cynthia Nixon, but it very well may be something that can be changed after conception....in my understanding of the literature.






Pu.


That still makes no sense. My brother was born two years after me. The only difference between me and him is he was conceived and born in Oregon. I in Kansas. Mom did not smoke or drink, dad did. Why are there not more gays in Kansas? However, there are gays, allegedly, on both sides of the family. Of course, back then, things like homosexuality were not talked about.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:30 am

mariner wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
You very well know why that was, just like in prison, no women, so what do you think happens?


There were women in Sydney from the earliest white settlement. One of the points of the First Fleet was to provide the basis of a population for the new colony.

There is a famously recorded orgy involving many of the prisoners in the First Fleet, and there were Aboriginal women - and please don't sneer at the idea of white men doing it with black women, the convicts didn't really care where they put it.

But still - there was sodomy.

mariner


The ratio of men to women in the first fleet was not in anyway even, of the convicts 543 were men to 189 women. Plus 45 wives and children along with 600 or so ships crew and marines, as a bloke your chances of bagging a woman were pretty slim.
 
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pu
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:38 am

seb146 wrote:
That still makes no sense. My brother was born two years after me. The only difference between me and him is he was conceived and born in Oregon. I in Kansas. Mom did not smoke or drink, dad did. Why are there not more gays in Kansas? However, there are gays, allegedly, on both sides of the family. Of course, back then, things like homosexuality were not talked about


Maybe I'm nkt explaining the research very well. Try this, I think it gives the best summary of the state of research:

https://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/s ... pter19.pdf

After reviewing the various posts on this thread it seems to me that some US right wing figure like Jerry Falwell decided to make a big political noise in saying that gay people make a choice to be gay. What should have happened is gays and their friends and scientific-minded figures reply with saying, "Yes, you may be right, but there's no evidence and no gay person feels this way, but it's irrelevant since we're not hurting anyone and are equal to anyone else." Instead, what happened is gays let their enemies define the parameters of disscussion and gays understood that they must insist that choice is in no way involved. Now I see that some gay people have come forward to say it WAS a choice for them, and there's now also evidence that both environment and inheritance play a role in sexuality.

But many gays, especially American, are still locked into arguing first and foremost that it wasn't their choice - when really they should maybe say it may be a choice for a few, but not for most, and the determinants of sexuality are not best understood using the false dichotomy of choice/no choice.

and thanks for addressing what I say or paraphrase from research instead of attacking me.



Pu.
 
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seb146
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:12 am

pu wrote:
seb146 wrote:
That still makes no sense. My brother was born two years after me. The only difference between me and him is he was conceived and born in Oregon. I in Kansas. Mom did not smoke or drink, dad did. Why are there not more gays in Kansas? However, there are gays, allegedly, on both sides of the family. Of course, back then, things like homosexuality were not talked about


Maybe I'm nkt explaining the research very well. Try this, I think it gives the best summary of the state of research:

https://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/s ... pter19.pdf

After reviewing the various posts on this thread it seems to me that some US right wing figure like Jerry Falwell decided to make a big political noise in saying that gay people make a choice to be gay. What should have happened is gays and their friends and scientific-minded figures reply with saying, "Yes, you may be right, but there's no evidence and no gay person feels this way, but it's irrelevant since we're not hurting anyone and are equal to anyone else." Instead, what happened is gays let their enemies define the parameters of disscussion and gays understood that they must insist that choice is in no way involved. Now I see that some gay people have come forward to say it WAS a choice for them, and there's now also evidence that both environment and inheritance play a role in sexuality.

But many gays, especially American, are still locked into arguing first and foremost that it wasn't their choice - when really they should maybe say it may be a choice for a few, but not for most, and the determinants of sexuality are not best understood using the false dichotomy of choice/no choice.

and thanks for addressing what I say or paraphrase from research instead of attacking me.



Pu.


I am just going by what I am living.

I read parts of this link and there is one section, past the twins study, that sounds like they studied the genetics of sexuality. I look at it this way: Red heads. I have two brothers, we are all from the same parents and we all three carry the gene for red heads. It has not manifested in five of their children. If my other brother finds a woman and settles down, that trait may manifest itself. Or it may not depending.

And, yes, Americans have been conditioned to not accept or tolerate homosexuals because of not understanding. Thankfully, that trend is going away. Slowly.

There are those who have been conditioned to accept performing homosexual acts. They continue to do it as a defense mechanism or because they don't know anything else. They are very few in number but they do exist.
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mariner
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:15 am

Kiwirob wrote:
The ratio of men to women in the first fleet was not in anyway even, of the convicts 543 were men to 189 women. Plus 45 wives and children along with 600 or so ships crew and marines, as a bloke your chances of bagging a woman were pretty slim.


Quite a number of the women were prostitutes. They were shared.

And I see you're still discounting Aboriginal women.

mariner
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:10 am

seb146 wrote:
...what I'm living...
...
There are those who have been conditioned to accept performing homosexual acts. They continue to do it as a defense mechanism or because they don't know anything else. They are very few in number but they do exist.


Ok, thanks for that. Here's Pu's personal experience in two big points.

1 - everyone in my country had to join the military. When I joined, I was fine with it, somewhat enthusiastic, whatever....but...I really began to despise other men. Why? Because I had to live with them 24/7. It was like getting married to 100 men. In Sweden and Germany and elsewhere nudity is very accepted, so seeing men or women naked was unremarkable, but I really became sick of the male form, the various male ideas of cleanliness, the wide variety of male living habits in general. This forced me and several other friends into a kind of hyper-female-oriented sexuality, I think. I can remember thinking that homosexuals must be completely nuts because why would you ever choose to live with a man? I could not wait to visit prostitutes on my time off, which have never appealed to me before or since. Then, later in my military life and afterwards, this all mellowed and I became simultaneously less stand-offish towards men and less crazy-obsessed with women. So this made me think that sexual desire is in some way influenced by environment and that feelings towards men and women generally, sexual or not, can also be influenced by environment. It also made me think about the examples like the ones Mariner gives above and how military life oddly has a sexual component - perhaps making some people temporarily gay or at minimum effecting their sexual behavior. Environmental influences.

2 - About 5-7 years ago I was volunteering to work in a homeless shelter in Stockholm. One kid I worked with was living on the street as a male hooker, he also had problems with chemical abuse. Basically, his lifestyle was: stand on a street corner, proposition men, get one to take him home and then these gay men would feed him, get him high and maybe give him a place to sleep for a couple days. After the sexual circus was done with one man he'd return to the street and the process repeated. So we were concerned with many factors here, not least of which was his dangerous sexual habits. We tried many things. He identified as gay. One thing we tried was getting him around healthy, mainstream, non-abusive gay men who would maybe mentor him without a sexual relationship. This worked ok. But he'd still drift back to his street life. Then, through some weird chain of events a woman came on to him. As he told the story, he thought of her as another trick to use for material gain. However, what ended up happening is he became long term involved with this woman, started taking classes, got a job and still had issues to work out, but eventually came to tell us words to the effect of "If I had known women like this earlier I would never have gone to the streets and never been gay." As far as I know they live together still. So, this made me realize that this is an odd story because it's really like the more familiar example of a gay man who marries a woman and lives a straight life until he one day finds himself and embraces being gay. Also, it made me realize that people don't always know what their true nature is; some may in effect choose one way or another... and that outside forces including drugs, economics and who finds you sexually appealing, can cause a person to be straight or gay regardless of their genetics...it seems to me.

Finally, when I watched my sons grow up and the evidence of how much they jerked off was inescapable, this made me think that some men will just seek sexual release most anyway they can, male, female, self, farm animals, whatever...

Anyway, these are two reasons why I never really liked the "I was born this way" explanation as the only explanation for sexual identity. Environment has a role.



Pu.




Pu.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:05 am

mariner wrote:
PacificBeach88 wrote:
What do Kiwis call rednecks in NZ? I love UK, Aussie, NZ, S African english language quirks. Do Kiwis have a term for what we in the USA call "rednecks"? Curious.


I'll jump in here.

In Australia probably "bogan" - meaning a loud, ignorant bloke of lower social status. A "cashed up began" means someone who has made big money, perhaps as a labourer on the minefields, and Bali is sometimes called the Bogan Riviera.

Bogan isn't used so much In NZ, where's it's more likely to be "cow cocky" - a dairy farmer - or more (rarely) a "sheep cocky' - a farmer who runs sheep. "Cocky" is a derivation from cockatoo, in the sense someone who is cock-sure of himself.

"We're in cow cocky country now" means we're way out in the woop-woop - definitely not in Auckland - Image

mariner


Bogan and westy are used quite a lot in NZ, especially in Auskland, many westies wear the term with pride. Cow cocky is a very old term mostly used by people of my grandparents generation.
 
ozglobal
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:09 am

The problem with this topic is that pro and anti gay lobbies have both politicized the scientific questions:

- The Pro gay lobby has taken the shortcut of reasoning that if being gay is not chosen then it can't be a moral condition; further having a same sex orientation and acting upon it physically are one in the same realility: therefore, in this view, there can be no moral objection to gay sexual behaviours. Hence the claim that one is 'born gay' rather than 'chosing' to be so, as if these were the only two options on a binanry scale.

- The Evangelical Anti gay lobby believes equally that it needs to prove one is not 'born gay' (genetics) in order to insist it is a morally culpable condition AND behaviour. Or in more the much more nuanced case of the Catholic Church, ,even if the orientation is not a moral condition, the behaviour itself is morally disordered.

Ironically, everyone appart from the Catholic Church is bundling genetics with morality in an attempt to drive home their position.

But if we want to do honest science, let's be open to both genetics and environment or socialization factors. After all, there are sets of identical male twins where one is hetro the other homo sexual.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:25 am

mariner wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
The ratio of men to women in the first fleet was not in anyway even, of the convicts 543 were men to 189 women. Plus 45 wives and children along with 600 or so ships crew and marines, as a bloke your chances of bagging a woman were pretty slim.


Quite a number of the women were prostitutes. They were shared.


"Despite the belief that convict women during the transportation period were all prostitutes, no women were transported for that offence. The majority of women sent to Australia were convicted for what would now be considered minor offences (such as petty theft), most did not receive sentences of more than seven years. Many women were driven to prostitution upon their arrival in Australia as means of survival because they were often required to house themselves or buy clothing and bedding on their own".

mariner wrote:
And I see you're still discounting Aboriginal women.

mariner


And I will continue to discount them, I'm sure rapes did happen but it's difficult finding much information about it and within a few years most of the Eora tribe had gone, most died in the 1789 small pox epidemic, there just weren't that many aboriginal women around to rape.
 
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:27 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Cow cocky is a very old term mostly used by people of my grandparents generation.


I hear it all the time. But then I don't live in Auckland.

mariner
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seb146
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:24 pm

pu wrote:
seb146 wrote:
...what I'm living...
...
There are those who have been conditioned to accept performing homosexual acts. They continue to do it as a defense mechanism or because they don't know anything else. They are very few in number but they do exist.


Ok, thanks for that. Here's Pu's personal experience in two big points.

1 - everyone in my country had to join the military. When I joined, I was fine with it, somewhat enthusiastic, whatever....but...I really began to despise other men. Why? Because I had to live with them 24/7. It was like getting married to 100 men. In Sweden and Germany and elsewhere nudity is very accepted, so seeing men or women naked was unremarkable, but I really became sick of the male form, the various male ideas of cleanliness, the wide variety of male living habits in general. This forced me and several other friends into a kind of hyper-female-oriented sexuality, I think. I can remember thinking that homosexuals must be completely nuts because why would you ever choose to live with a man? I could not wait to visit prostitutes on my time off, which have never appealed to me before or since. Then, later in my military life and afterwards, this all mellowed and I became simultaneously less stand-offish towards men and less crazy-obsessed with women. So this made me think that sexual desire is in some way influenced by environment and that feelings towards men and women generally, sexual or not, can also be influenced by environment. It also made me think about the examples like the ones Mariner gives above and how military life oddly has a sexual component - perhaps making some people temporarily gay or at minimum effecting their sexual behavior. Environmental influences.

2 - About 5-7 years ago I was volunteering to work in a homeless shelter in Stockholm. One kid I worked with was living on the street as a male hooker, he also had problems with chemical abuse. Basically, his lifestyle was: stand on a street corner, proposition men, get one to take him home and then these gay men would feed him, get him high and maybe give him a place to sleep for a couple days. After the sexual circus was done with one man he'd return to the street and the process repeated. So we were concerned with many factors here, not least of which was his dangerous sexual habits. We tried many things. He identified as gay. One thing we tried was getting him around healthy, mainstream, non-abusive gay men who would maybe mentor him without a sexual relationship. This worked ok. But he'd still drift back to his street life. Then, through some weird chain of events a woman came on to him. As he told the story, he thought of her as another trick to use for material gain. However, what ended up happening is he became long term involved with this woman, started taking classes, got a job and still had issues to work out, but eventually came to tell us words to the effect of "If I had known women like this earlier I would never have gone to the streets and never been gay." As far as I know they live together still. So, this made me realize that this is an odd story because it's really like the more familiar example of a gay man who marries a woman and lives a straight life until he one day finds himself and embraces being gay. Also, it made me realize that people don't always know what their true nature is; some may in effect choose one way or another... and that outside forces including drugs, economics and who finds you sexually appealing, can cause a person to be straight or gay regardless of their genetics...it seems to me.

Finally, when I watched my sons grow up and the evidence of how much they jerked off was inescapable, this made me think that some men will just seek sexual release most anyway they can, male, female, self, farm animals, whatever...

Anyway, these are two reasons why I never really liked the "I was born this way" explanation as the only explanation for sexual identity. Environment has a role.



Pu.




Pu.


Both of your examples happen. I have seen it, so I do accept those. However, there are also I don't know how many scenarios where good religious families raise good religious children who don't drink, don't smoke, don't use mind altering substances, play sports, join the military, and are still gay. Many of us can point to a time in our lives when we knew we are gay, even if we did not understand at the time. I have that moment when I was about five years old, but when I hit puberty, my male friends were all noticing girls, I was noticing my male friends.

I also want to add to your two points that there are men who perform homosexual acts probably because they think it is so forbidden that they have to sneak around. Look at the accounts of men married to women with children caught with male prostitutes. Heterosexual, married men skulking around late at night looking for young men.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:52 pm

pu wrote:
Most importantly, identical twins share the same genome, but the number of gay identical twins is small - far more common is one is gay while one is not.

I can't tell if you're actually proving that each person's genetics are different (even in the case of identical siblings) or if you're using this to disprove that homosexuality is 100% NOT genetic. Judging by the intro, I'll assume the latter.

In which case...have you seen identical twins that have the same tastes? Have the same habits? Make the same choices? If you have, please bring proof because otherwise this only proves that even humans whose genetics are exceptionally identical still have several differences. One twin may like blue whereas the other prefers red; one may be comfortable with eating veggies whereas the other may be a full-fledged carnivore; and one twin may be gay while the other may be heterosexual. And lewis hit the nail on the head:
lewis wrote:
If that was so, wouldn't this mean that identical twins are perfect clones of each other, down to having the same fingerprints and all? As far as I know this isn't true.


ozglobal wrote:
The Evangelical Anti gay lobby believes equally that it needs to prove one is not 'born gay' (genetics) in order to insist it is a morally culpable condition AND behaviour.
Which is ironic considering the tenant of faith is believing without seeing...and even if proof were presented, they'd still reject it.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
lewis
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:26 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
pu wrote:
Most importantly, identical twins share the same genome, but the number of gay identical twins is small - far more common is one is gay while one is not.

I can't tell if you're actually proving that each person's genetics are different (even in the case of identical siblings) or if you're using this to disprove that homosexuality is 100% NOT genetic. Judging by the intro, I'll assume the latter.

In which case...have you seen identical twins that have the same tastes? Have the same habits? Make the same choices? If you have, please bring proof because otherwise this only proves that even humans whose genetics are exceptionally identical still have several differences. One twin may like blue whereas the other prefers red; one may be comfortable with eating veggies whereas the other may be a full-fledged carnivore; and one twin may be gay while the other may be heterosexual. And lewis hit the nail on the head:
lewis wrote:
If that was so, wouldn't this mean that identical twins are perfect clones of each other, down to having the same fingerprints and all? As far as I know this isn't true.


ozglobal wrote:
The Evangelical Anti gay lobby believes equally that it needs to prove one is not 'born gay' (genetics) in order to insist it is a morally culpable condition AND behaviour.
Which is ironic considering the tenant of faith is believing without seeing...and even if proof were presented, they'd still reject it.


Not only that, but the identical twin is a good case study for this for many reasons. They shared the same womb at the same time, same upbringing and most of the times both identical siblings get the same life experiences, are pushed towards similar activities by parents when they are at a very young age, yet may develop differences in sexuality.
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:31 pm

pu wrote:
Ok, thanks for that. Here's Pu's personal experience in two big points.

1 - everyone in my country had to join the military. When I joined, I was fine with it, somewhat enthusiastic, whatever....but...I really began to despise other men. Why? Because I had to live with them 24/7. It was like getting married to 100 men. In Sweden and Germany and elsewhere nudity is very accepted, so seeing men or women naked was unremarkable, but I really became sick of the male form, the various male ideas of cleanliness, the wide variety of male living habits in general. This forced me and several other friends into a kind of hyper-female-oriented sexuality, I think. I can remember thinking that homosexuals must be completely nuts because why would you ever choose to live with a man? I could not wait to visit prostitutes on my time off, which have never appealed to me before or since. Then, later in my military life and afterwards, this all mellowed and I became simultaneously less stand-offish towards men and less crazy-obsessed with women. So this made me think that sexual desire is in some way influenced by environment and that feelings towards men and women generally, sexual or not, can also be influenced by environment. It also made me think about the examples like the ones Mariner gives above and how military life oddly has a sexual component - perhaps making some people temporarily gay or at minimum effecting their sexual behavior. Environmental influences.

2 - About 5-7 years ago I was volunteering to work in a homeless shelter in Stockholm. One kid I worked with was living on the street as a male hooker, he also had problems with chemical abuse. Basically, his lifestyle was: stand on a street corner, proposition men, get one to take him home and then these gay men would feed him, get him high and maybe give him a place to sleep for a couple days. After the sexual circus was done with one man he'd return to the street and the process repeated. So we were concerned with many factors here, not least of which was his dangerous sexual habits. We tried many things. He identified as gay. One thing we tried was getting him around healthy, mainstream, non-abusive gay men who would maybe mentor him without a sexual relationship. This worked ok. But he'd still drift back to his street life. Then, through some weird chain of events a woman came on to him. As he told the story, he thought of her as another trick to use for material gain. However, what ended up happening is he became long term involved with this woman, started taking classes, got a job and still had issues to work out, but eventually came to tell us words to the effect of "If I had known women like this earlier I would never have gone to the streets and never been gay." As far as I know they live together still. So, this made me realize that this is an odd story because it's really like the more familiar example of a gay man who marries a woman and lives a straight life until he one day finds himself and embraces being gay. Also, it made me realize that people don't always know what their true nature is; some may in effect choose one way or another... and that outside forces including drugs, economics and who finds you sexually appealing, can cause a person to be straight or gay regardless of their genetics...it seems to me.

Finally, when I watched my sons grow up and the evidence of how much they jerked off was inescapable, this made me think that some men will just seek sexual release most anyway they can, male, female, self, farm animals, whatever...

Anyway, these are two reasons why I never really liked the "I was born this way" explanation as the only explanation for sexual identity. Environment has a role.


Wow! You really have spent a lot of time having sex with and spending time with prostitutes. Maybe you're not gay, straight, or bi...you just prefer to pay for sex. Perhaps you're just a "punter"? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/10 ... es-it.html
 
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cybergus
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:20 am

Even tho I came out pretty late for the standard, I think there is always something inside you that dictates your sexual preference. The society where you are raised, the family background, the country where you live at, all those things probably play a big role in making you think that you are not gay...but at the end of the day your happiness tells you other way.
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seb146
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:01 am

cybergus wrote:
Even tho I came out pretty late for the standard, I think there is always something inside you that dictates your sexual preference. The society where you are raised, the family background, the country where you live at, all those things probably play a big role in making you think that you are not gay...but at the end of the day your happiness tells you other way.


And that should end the thread.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:28 am

DocLightning wrote:
jpetekyxmd80 wrote:

Internet can be very deceptive. You might even be a halfway decent human being in real life.


*deep, manly laugh.*


Lmao girlie giggle more like ;)
 
bhill
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:45 pm

You forgot:

D.) Why should it effect a persons' Liberty?
Carpe Pices
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:51 pm

bhill wrote:
You forgot:

D.) Why should it effect a persons' Liberty?


Thank you. My bad.
 
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pu
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:42 pm

seb146 wrote:
Both of your examples happen. I have seen it, so I do accept those. However, there are also I don't know how many scenarios where good religious families raise good religious children who don't drink, don't smoke, don't use mind altering substances, play sports, join the military, and are still gay. ...

I also want to add to your two points that there are men who perform homosexual acts probably because they think it is so forbidden that they have to sneak around. Look at the accounts of men married to women with children caught with male prostitutes. Heterosexual, married men skulking around late at night looking for young men.


You are thinking too much of environmental influences as meaning how someone is raised. Also, I think it's possible that the sexual repression you mention can lead someone to identify as gay or straight or bi or whatever when they might have identified differently in a neutral environment.


ozglobal wrote:
The problem with this topic is that pro and anti gay lobbies have both politicized the scientific questions:

But if we want to do honest science, let's be open to both genetics and environment or socialization factors. After all, there are sets of identical male twins where one is hetro the other homo sexual.


I am interested in why some people are left handed and to me this sexuality topic could/should be treated just as innocuously.



einsteinboricua wrote:
In which case...have you seen identical twins that have the same tastes? Have the same habits? Make the same choices? If you have, please bring proof because otherwise this only proves that even humans whose genetics are exceptionally identical still have several differences. One twin may like blue whereas the other prefers red; one may be comfortable with eating veggies whereas the other may be a full-fledged carnivore; and one twin may be gay while the other may be heterosexual. And lewis hit the nail on the head:


The scientific literature explains all this very well. Environmental differences include anything that happens to you after conception. Tastes in colours, foods are very obviously environmentally influenced...why not tastes in sexuality?

lewis wrote:
Not only that, but the identical twin is a good case study for this for many reasons. They shared the same womb at the same time, same upbringing and most of the times both identical siblings get the same life experiences, are pushed towards similar activities by parents when they are at a very young age, yet may develop differences in sexuality.
[/quote][/quote]

"Pushed towards similar activities" is not really related to environmental influences.

You guys are missing the sometimes confusing definition of what is caused by genetics and what is caused by environmental factors. You are still thinking that environment means how you were raised. In the studies I've linked to, it more often means things like the environment you experience in the womb and/or influences no one was really choosing like birth order, nutrition, chemical exposure, whatever.

As far as I understand it, fingerprints are the perfect example of this. For monozygotic twins they apparently are different because of the slight differences experienced in the womb.

Given the extreme reaction on this thread and the surprising hostility - let me say that an interest in Israeli foreign policy does not mean you're anti-semitic, an interest in the physical/mental/sociological differences of blacks, whites, Asians or whatever does not mean you are racist, and likewise an interest in how sexuality is different in humans is not homophobic.

BUT, let's say the science shows that homosexuality comes from exposure to flouridated water. Or sunspots. Or x-rays. Or, if you prefer, let's say heterosexuality is caused by something environmentally common that somehow homosexuals are not exposed to....Does this cause you concern? Isn't the push to say this is genetic purely from political controversies?



Pu.
 
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mariner
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:02 pm

pu wrote:
BUT, let's say the science shows that homosexuality comes from exposure to flouridated water. Or sunspots. Or x-rays. Or, if you prefer, let's say heterosexuality is caused by something environmentally common that somehow homosexuals are not exposed to....Does this cause you concern? Isn't the push to say this is genetic purely from political controversies?


Part of the problem with this debate is that I don't know how to define what "a homosexual" is.

I have straight chums, happily married with children, who like an occasional bit on the side with another man. In their minds (to generalise) they are not being unfaithful to their wives because they're not doing it with another woman.

I have another chum whose sex drive was so high that while he preferred woman, he really didn't mind who he did it with as long as he had an orgasm. I knew a man, a straight very butch Aussie who played a cop on tv, who became a very close friend. He ended the friendship because he was concerned at the feelings it aroused in him.

I know of men who have been in prison who, in the absence of women, happily have sex with other men. Once they are released they (or most of them) go straight back to women. But they are recidivists if they return to prison. LOL.

Or what do we do about Lawrence of Arabia, whose clear (and recorded) sexual longings were towards men, but who embraced celibacy rather than indulge his desires. Although (again recorded) he did - very occasionally - pay men to beat him to orgasm.

Are any of these men "homosexual"? They certainly would not define themselves as such.

Or is this just the old academic desire to put everyone into boxes?

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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:04 pm

mariner wrote:
Or is this just the old academic desire to put everyone into boxes?


That would pretty much be it.

But we could say the discussion is about sexuality, rather than specifically homosexuality. Then it could be addressed as a spectrum rather than binary.

pu wrote:
Given the extreme reaction on this thread and the surprising hostility - let me say that an interest in Israeli foreign policy does not mean you're anti-semitic, an interest in the physical/mental/sociological differences of blacks, whites, Asians or whatever does not mean you are racist, and likewise an interest in how sexuality is different in humans is not homophobic.


You are correct, and thankfully several people have posted thoughtful replies without attacking.

People just get used to the ulterior motive that threads like this often have, so the automatic response is aggressive. But to be honest, your posts in this thread have struck me as curious rather than insulting or whatever.

Personally, I'm not too concerned about whether it's born in you or environmental (and my guess is that it's a combo). Since I don't see homosexuality as a bad thing at all, and I see no reason to deny things like marriage to gay folks, the cause is rather irrelevant. The resistance to gay rights from certain segments of the population continues to baffle me....and make me quite angry.

I will never understand why it's so hard to accept that the innate, completely natural feelings I have toward women are the same feelings that gay people have toward the same sex, or bi people have toward both sexes, or whatever.
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pu
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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:19 pm

mariner wrote:
Part of the problem with this debate is that I don't know how to define what "a homosexual" is.

I think most of the more modern researchers recognise this.
First of all, there is how people choose to self-identify. This IS a choice.
Second of all, there is what people really are according to the definitions of the researcher.
Finally, there are the people that fit in no definition and/or don't know how to identify themselves, nor does the research know how to identify them.

So, for instance, there are men who have never had sex with a man who identify as gay; men who have never had sex with a woman who identify as hetero, and there are some we might call outliers who have such ...uhm...interesting sexual histories that they themselves don't know who they are and science doesn't either.

mariner wrote:
I have straight chums, happily married with children, who like an occasional bit on the side with another man. In their minds (to generalise) they are not being unfaithful to their wives because they're not doing it with another woman.

For one thing, can we admit it's easier to obtain casual-immediate sex from men then it is with women? and that the availability or willingness of one gender versus another obviously influences sexual behaviour?


I think most of us agree sexuality is a spectrum. As I think DocLightning says above, there are clusters on either end of the spectrum but people in between as well. After more reading and thinking about life experiences in myself and others, moving to different points on the spectrum seems mainly a result of how you experience sex. As I mention above, in my experience the military can push you to extremes. I might even go so far as to say that if you start out somewhere towards the middle of the sexual orientation spectrum, being in the military may push you to one extreme or the other, which is one way I see life experiences possibly influencing sexuality. If you had some homosexual feelings when you enter the military, this may provide a quick conduit to explore them further and decide once and for all you are gay. Or you may get so turned off by men that whatever homosexual interests you had are extinguished, maybe.

I think perhaps how you experience gender, your own and others, during the first 20 years of life might influence sexuality. I can see having a total monster of a father or terrible male figures in your life pushing a girl towards the lesbian end of the spectrum if she finds comfort and sexual satisfaction in women during adolescence. Likewise, a boy who was towards the homo end of the spectrum might have such terrible experiences with men early on that he drifts towards hetero. Maybe...I think all this is possible.



mariner wrote:
I have another chum whose sex drive was so high that while he preferred woman, he really didn't mind who he did it with as long as he had an orgasm.

This is good, because now I realise I have two friends like this. Which is really amazing.

They have old Swedish names, so I'll call them John and Tom. Tom was my university flatmate. John I met later at work. But when I introduced Tom to John it was like introducing lost-identical-twins to each other. Both of them are complete sexual maniacs. I honestly believe they care little about the gender of their partner. All they care about is the orgasm. I don't know for a fact that they've had sexual contact with men or sexual contact with each other, but I suspect it. They are both married with kids and I sense really love their family life. But their sex life is like a totally different part of their existence. The minute they leave home they are looking for sex. An exciting time for them is a business trip, which they start planning in advance by researching the sexual outlets in whatever place they're visiting. One time we were at a convention in New Orleans, USA and we were on Bourbon Street every night for a week - I was happy to just drink and listen to music, they had to drag me to every bar because they were convinced this was the place where the full sexual buffet was available, so we went to big singles bars with drunken college girls, drag queen bars, nice preppy gay bars, rougher motorcycle-gay-bars, topless bars, swinger sex bars...everything! They were in heaven and disappeared every night about 11. I'm almost afraid to ask what they got up to.

...but if they have sex with both men and women I would not call them bisexual. I would call them sexually obsessed.

mariner wrote:
Or is this just the old academic desire to put everyone into boxes?


I think there are clearly boxes. But there are also grey areas. Many here have said it's only been men for them forever, others say they may slightly feel some occasional attraction towards women, and so forth. Unfortunately we don't have enough women here to look at this further. However, I do find it from my personal experiences that lesbians more often are outright hostile towards men or have a very aggressive anti-male mindset about them, which is not totally absent in gay men I meet but is far less common.

vikkyvik wrote:
But we could say the discussion is about sexuality, rather than specifically homosexuality. Then it could be addressed as a spectrum rather than binary.


It should be seen as a spectrum....but what purpose does a spectrum serve in the science of our existence? This I'd like to understand better.

vikkyvik wrote:
Personally, I'm not too concerned about whether it's born in you or environmental (and my guess is that it's a combo). Since I don't see homosexuality as a bad thing at all, and I see no reason to deny things like marriage to gay folks, the cause is rather irrelevant. The resistance to gay rights from certain segments of the population continues to baffle me....and make me quite angry.


I get uncomfortable with two men enthusiastically kissing in public. I get uncomfortable with a man and a woman enthusiastically kissing in public. I shake my head when a man grabs the ass of a woman in public, and I'd shake my head if a man grabbed the crotch of another man in public. I think some of us are just less or more comfortable with sexuality as a public issue.
vikkyvik wrote:
I will never understand why it's so hard to accept that the innate, completely natural feelings I have toward women are the same feelings that gay people have toward the same sex, or bi people have toward both sexes, or whatever.

It's pretty easy for me to just think, "he loves him the same way I love my wife," and in my country there was never a big deal about this anyway. My impression is that me starting this thread among Scandinavians would get responses entirely different, with most gay men in Norway and Sweden or Denmark just curious as to this question as a point of scientific interest and not an emotionally charged political issue.





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Re: Born gay or straight or became that way?

Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:26 am

pu wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Both of your examples happen. I have seen it, so I do accept those. However, there are also I don't know how many scenarios where good religious families raise good religious children who don't drink, don't smoke, don't use mind altering substances, play sports, join the military, and are still gay. ...

I also want to add to your two points that there are men who perform homosexual acts probably because they think it is so forbidden that they have to sneak around. Look at the accounts of men married to women with children caught with male prostitutes. Heterosexual, married men skulking around late at night looking for young men.


You are thinking too much of environmental influences as meaning how someone is raised. Also, I think it's possible that the sexual repression you mention can lead someone to identify as gay or straight or bi or whatever when they might have identified differently in a neutral environment.


I get what you are saying that during pregnancy, one fetus may have a different experience than their sibling, all other factors being equal, and that is one hypothesis that is how homosexuals come to be. That may be one factor. I am not a genetic scientist or an OB/GYN so I can not argue that point. In fact, that sound entirely reasonable. My hypothesis, as well as others, is that sexuality is already in the DNA at conception.

There was also a time when being bi or gay was in. Now, it is just whatever. Fewer people care in places where sexual orientation is not an issue.
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