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scbriml
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F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:44 am

Hello F1 fans!

After the long summer break, F1 is back with a bang this weekend. It's the Belgian GP at the magnificent Spa-Francorchamps circuit. Always a favourite with the drivers and fans, the Belgian GP rarely fails to produce a thrilling race. Next weekend is another absolute classic race - the Italian GP at Monza. Welcome back F1!

After winning six of the last seven races and taking a 19 point lead in the WDC, Hamilton has confirmed he'll be taking an unknown number of engine penalties for this race and will almost certainly start last on the grid. For him, this weekend will be all about minimising the damage a likely Rosberg victory will do to his WDC lead. Can he get on the podium from last on the grid? It will be tough. Unusually for Spa, the weather forecast is very good and it looks unlikely we'll have any rain to spice things up. There is, however, a reasonable chance that the safety car will be deployed at some point during the race.

http://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headl ... nalty.html
Lewis Hamilton will have to fight his way through the field on Sunday at Spa-Francorchamps, after confirming that he will take an engine penalty ahead of this weekend's 2016 Formula 1 Belgian Grand Prix.

Mercedes say they cannot be precise about how many elements of his power unit will be changed, at least until they have firmed up plans on Friday.


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Aesma
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:24 am

These engine penalties are really ridiculous. They should dock constructor championship points instead.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:37 am

This race is Rosberg's to lose. And lose he will. I sincerely doubt his mental strength, especially after having been pummeled by Hamilton over the past couple of races. I sincerely doubt that he's going to be champion unless if Hamilton has a crash a la Schumacher's at the 1999 British GP.

On another note, I'm seriously wondering why the hell is Ferrari faffing about & not providing any form of challenge not just against the Mercedes-Benz team but also Red Bull? With all the money & facilities at their disposal you'd think they run rings around everyone, but instead they are not able to properly challenge for the win in any races, let alone mounting a strong championship challenge, even with two world champions at the helm.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:30 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
On another note, I'm seriously wondering why the hell is Ferrari faffing about & not providing any form of challenge not just against the Mercedes-Benz team but also Red Bull?


From being a "serious challenge" to Mercedes at the start of the season they've gone backwards. Towards the end of last season, while their one-lap pace wasn't outstanding, they were often close on race pace. I think they flattered to deceive at the start of this season and in reality, they're as far off Mercedes as they ever were last season. The difference now is that Red Bull (thanks mainly to the improved Renault engine) have moved ahead of Ferrari. It's very telling that in the one race when Mercedes 'self destructed', it was Red Bull that won, not Ferrari.

It's quite shocking to think one has to go back to 2008 for their last Constructors title. In the last five and a half seasons, they've won just nine GP. 2016 is looking like repeating 2014's winless season. :shock:

Personally, I've never been a fan and dislike the unfair advantages they get from the FIA, so it amuses me to see them struggle.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:32 pm

On another note, I'm seriously wondering why the hell is Ferrari faffing about & not providing any form of challenge not just against the Mercedes-Benz team but also Red Bull?


These last years i'm having to think of Ferrari before the Schumacher years. With many Italians in key postions things just did not come together. Today several of the key positions have been filled again by Italians & while i'm sure these people are not unqualified the parallels are a bit too much for my liking. The recent departure of James Allison is another example (and said to be due to a conflict within the team) with his replacement being Mattia Binotto. Gerhard Berger echoed the same sentiment, referring to it as Italian confusion.

Maybe the company culture could use a shake up again with some infusion of German, British, French & South African influences like back in the day. And this is coming from a lifelong Ferrari supporter. Even tough it's a struggle i can still enjoy F1 fortunately.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:51 am

Aesma wrote:
These engine penalties are really ridiculous. They should dock constructor championship points instead.


I'll tell you what the real farce is. Hamilton is reportedly using 30 grid penalty tokens for his car. But as the grid is only 20 cars deep, he starts 20th but uses up his full 30 penalties. IMHO, if he starts 20th, then the FIA should say he used 20 and make him use the other 10 penalty grid spots at the next race. Otherwise you can get to the point where a manufacturer can plan to "tank" one race during the year and use up 20 grid positions, but in essence get away with unlimited improvements to the engine. Past 20 changes there is no penalty no matter how many changes you make, so plan a bonanza.
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:48 am

photopilot wrote:
I'll tell you what the real farce is. Hamilton is reportedly using 30 grid penalty tokens for his car. But as the grid is only 20 cars deep, he starts 20th but uses up his full 30 penalties. IMHO, if he starts 20th, then the FIA should say he used 20 and make him use the other 10 penalty grid spots at the next race. Otherwise you can get to the point where a manufacturer can plan to "tank" one race during the year and use up 20 grid positions, but in essence get away with unlimited improvements to the engine. Past 20 changes there is no penalty no matter how many changes you make, so plan a bonanza.


Only if you believe the championship should be decided by reliability as opposed to talent. Personally I'd rather see the better driver win and no penalties applied at all for reliability issues (as would the vast majority of fans I suspect).

The rules are clearly doing the job of discouraging engine changes, since every team has developed components which are capable of lasting the season (even if on occasion they don't), so why change them other than to penalize specific drivers?
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:45 am

photopilot wrote:
Aesma wrote:
These engine penalties are really ridiculous. They should dock constructor championship points instead.


I'll tell you what the real farce is. Hamilton is reportedly using 30 grid penalty tokens for his car. But as the grid is only 20 cars deep, he starts 20th but uses up his full 30 penalties. IMHO, if he starts 20th, then the FIA should say he used 20 and make him use the other 10 penalty grid spots at the next race. Otherwise you can get to the point where a manufacturer can plan to "tank" one race during the year and use up 20 grid positions, but in essence get away with unlimited improvements to the engine. Past 20 changes there is no penalty no matter how many changes you make, so plan a bonanza.


Are you conflating engine development tokens with grid penalties for using too many engine components?

In fact Hamilton has taken 55 grid-place penalties. They tried your suggestion a couple of seasons ago and it was a disaster. Everybody agreed that it was over-punitive for the drivers, so it was thrown out. Over the last couple of seasons just about every team has done what Mercedes have done with Hamilton. Heck, last season it seemed like McLaren were doing it every other race! That's just how it is given the current regulations.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:53 am

zckls04 wrote:

Only if you believe the championship should be decided by reliability as opposed to talent. Personally I'd rather see the better driver win and no penalties applied at all for reliability issues (as would the vast majority of fans I suspect).

The rules are clearly doing the job of discouraging engine changes, since every team has developed components which are capable of lasting the season (even if on occasion they don't), so why change them other than to penalize specific drivers?


The engine rules currently in force are there to make it possible for the smaller teams to afford to compete.

Can you remember the "good old days" when you had an engine for each practice session, an engine for qualifying and a special race engine built for each tracks characteristics...? The current 5 engine limit would have people from this era rolling around on the ground laughing their socks off if you were to discuss it with them.

Or the "good but not as oldish days" where there was now an engine limit, but no consecutive-race requirements, so engines were swapped between races, matching up new engines for fast circuits, and used engines for slower circuits...?

Reliability has always played a part in deciding F1 title holders, its no different now.
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:42 am

moo wrote:
Reliability has always played a part in deciding F1 title holders, its no different now.


It has. Some of us are old enough to remember when cars were so unreliable that only 10 finishes were counted towards the WDC.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:48 am

scbriml wrote:
moo wrote:
Reliability has always played a part in deciding F1 title holders, its no different now.


It has. Some of us are old enough to remember when cars were so unreliable that only 10 finishes were counted towards the WDC.


Thats a step up for Honda...
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:23 pm

What a poor show by the stewards. How the hell can Max blame Kimi for the first turn incident?? Max put his car there and suffered the result; some blame can probably be apportioned to Vettel. More concerning was his stupid maneuvering at high speed. There is a very real chance that Max is going to kill someone at the rate he's going. Obviously he is feeling very salty right now, especially with all the addded pressure with the Dutch fans. Like Kimi, I'm all for close racing, but lots of what we saw today was immaturity; Max is not brave, he's stupid....but he's also F1's new Golden Boy so he's above penalties. Alonso should have been penalised also for not backing off following the unsafe release.

Great drive by Danny Ric, Hulk and a great recovery from the King of Spa, especially considering how long he was stopped for when his car was on fire. Shame that Hulk didn't get a podium; he's overdue for one. Shame that the British and Dutch fans chose to boo during the podium ceremony. Don't know why Hamilton chose to say how great they are.

Max in an interview for Dutch TV afterwards: "Yeah they ruined my race so I'd rather push them off track then let them past. Makes for good television right?"

In an interview with RTL, Lauda said "put the brat back to school or into a psychiatric ward."
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:35 pm

As I said, Spa rarely fails to deliver a great race. While not that interesting right at the front, everywhere else was chaos from the very first corner, include one huge crash for Magnussen.

zkojq wrote:
How the hell can Max blame Kimi for the first turn incident?? Max put his car there and suffered the result; some blame can probably be apportioned to Vettel.


Agreed. Raikkonen was the biggest victim at turn one - pushed from the outside by Vettel and speared by Verstappen on the inside. Verstappen was stupid to try and dive up the inside at La Source on the first lap. It never works and almost guarantees losing your front wing or picking up a puncture. IMHO, his antics along the Kemmel Straight were shocking and he's going to cause a very high-speed crash before long if he keeps this up.

Very good recovery drive by Hamilton. In all honesty, I didn't think he could make the podium, but he took advantage of all the carnage, Safety Car and red flag. To only drop ten points to Rosberg was probably more than he expected going into the weekend.

A weekend to forget for Ferrari after qualifying 3rd & 4th, they finished 6th & 9th. Vettel largely to blame for the first corner mayhem after not leaving enough space on the inside. I'm really not sure why he needed to do that, he had nobody squeezing him from the outside.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:01 pm

First corner crash was clearly Vettel's fault.

If a driver says "I arguably should have given a little bit more room" (Vettel post race interview) that's as close to an admission of guilt as you are likely going to get from an F1 driver.
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:58 am

The way I looked at the first corner incident, if there's anyone to blame at all, it's Vettel, not Verstappen. Vettel collided with Raikkonen who was then pushed into Verstappen. Whether Verstappen was there or not doesn't matter, Vettel's collision with Raikkonen already ruined both their chances of victory. If you watched the replay closely, you'll see that Vettel hit Raikkonen before Raikkonen hit Verstappen. Neither Raikkonen nor Verstappen had anywhere to go.

That being said, Verstappen should have been penalised for pushing both Raikkonen and Perez off the track.

As for the Kemmel Straight incident, I agree it was dangerous, but within the letter of the law.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:44 am

CXB77L wrote:
As for the Kemmel Straight incident, I agree it was dangerous, but within the letter of the law.


Sooner or later he'll be made to look stupid for something like that. My wife happened to walk into the room during the post-race interviews while Verstappen was on. She asked me "Who's that arrogant little shit?" It's been a while since we had a fight between drivers, but if anyone's going to provoke one, it will be Verstappen.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:11 am

Is Vettel under pressure to win? Only a man under pressure would go do a rookie mistake like turning into your teammate at the start of the race & risk taking them both out.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:38 pm

moo wrote:

Reliability has always played a part in deciding F1 title holders, its no different now.


That's not a convincing argument for making the engine rule harsher. If the current rule is discouraging teams from changing engines in every session (which clearly it is), why make it stricter by carrying over penalties to the next race?
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:57 pm

zckls04 wrote:
moo wrote:

Reliability has always played a part in deciding F1 title holders, its no different now.


That's not a convincing argument for making the engine rule harsher. If the current rule is discouraging teams from changing engines in every session (which clearly it is), why make it stricter by carrying over penalties to the next race?


Who said I was making an argument? I was merely stating the reality of the situation.

Im completely against cost cutting for the sake of smaller manufacturers - F1 isnt a stock formula, there shouldnt be a cost cap, sod the teams who cant afford the expenditure needed to compete in F1.

Bring back qualifying engines, bring back qualifying tyres, get rid of all the restrictions on testing and development. I want the fastest possible cars, screw the expense.
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:00 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Is Vettel under pressure to win? Only a man under pressure would go do a rookie mistake like turning into your teammate at the start of the race & risk taking them both out.


Ha ha, everyone at Ferrari is under huge pressure. IMHO, they won't win a race this season unless they absolutely fluke into one with both Mercedes and both Red Bulls dropping out.

zckls04 wrote:
That's not a convincing argument for making the engine rule harsher. If the current rule is discouraging teams from changing engines in every session (which clearly it is), why make it stricter by carrying over penalties to the next race?


Even with the hugely complex engines (sorry, power trains) we have now, it seems to me that reliability is better than the 'old days' when engines were stripped down and rebuilt after each session. However, I'm somewhat of the view that if a team has to take too many engine components then the team should be punished by losing constructors points rather than punishing the driver by moving him down the grid. That said, I'm not sure how you punish teams like Manor or Sauber who currently have just one point between them!
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:42 pm

When a car crashes as hard as Magnussens did, and seemingly everything in the power train is now junk, is that just counted against all the tokens and allowed components for the year?
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:22 pm

ish2dachoppa wrote:
When a car crashes as hard as Magnussens did, and seemingly everything in the power train is now junk, is that just counted against all the tokens and allowed components for the year?


Yes.

If its fitted to a car during practice, qualifying or race, it counts. Regardless of the reason for its inability to be reused.
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:11 pm

moo wrote:

Who said I was making an argument? I was merely stating the reality of the situation.


Oh OK. I think we're all aware of the reasons of the rule- the question is whether the penalty should carry over from race to race or not. Since you replied to a post in which I say that the penalties are harsh enough currently on the drivers with a post with the summation "Reliability has always played a part in deciding F1 title holders, its no different now", I (wrongly) assumed you disagreed.

scbriml wrote:
Sooner or later he'll be made to look stupid for something like that. My wife happened to walk into the room during the post-race interviews while Verstappen was on. She asked me "Who's that arrogant little shit?" It's been a while since we had a fight between drivers, but if anyone's going to provoke one, it will be Verstappen.


Yep. The problem is that once the other drivers turn against you, regardless of the validity of their claims, you gain a reputation. And with the rulebook as vague as it is, you're inevitably going to start to get punished on the back of that reputation (e.g. with Grosjean).

moo wrote:
Bring back qualifying engines, bring back qualifying tyres, get rid of all the restrictions on testing and development. I want the fastest possible cars, screw the expense.
.

Nobody wants restrictions. But without them the sport just isn't commercially viable.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:21 am

FIA to investigate the detachment of KMAG's headrest.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-t ... st-811193/

scbriml wrote:
Verstappen was stupid to try and dive up the inside at La Source on the first lap. It never works and almost guarantees losing your front wing or picking up a puncture.

Exactly. It's the sort of thing one does when playing a video game before pressing the reset button and trying again multiple times until you miraculously manage to pull it off.

scbriml wrote:
IMHO, his antics along the Kemmel Straight were shocking and he's going to cause a very high-speed crash before long if he keeps this up.

An example of the carnage that such stupid antics can cause. I guess the HALO is needed ASAP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvs4o0vb ... u.be&t=35s

scbriml wrote:
Very good recovery drive by Hamilton. In all honesty, I didn't think he could make the podium, but he took advantage of all the carnage, Safety Car and red flag.

At the red flag he was 5th thanks to (nearly) everyone else pitting. Nearly all his position gains came from the strategy, given to him by pit wall. 3rd is the minimum I would expect, considering he's in a car that's two seconds a lap (probably more at a long track like Spa) quicker than everyone else's.

scbriml wrote:
Vettel largely to blame for the first corner mayhem after not leaving enough space on the inside.

wolbo wrote:
First corner crash was clearly Vettel's fault.

CXB77L wrote:
if there's anyone to blame at all, it's Vettel, not Verstappen

There was no way for Vettel to see Max, but he should have played it safe and given Kimi a little more space anyway, however Max was the one with all four wheels off track as he divebombed down the inside....

wolbo wrote:
If a driver says "I arguably should have given a little bit more room" (Vettel post race interview) that's as close to an admission of guilt as you are likely going to get from an F1 driver.

Actually, Vettel is a pretty upfront guy and takes responsibility for his mistakes:
http://en.f1i.com/news/32156-vettel-tak ... crash.html

Meanwhile from Max:
"On the video you can clearly see when Vettel turns in, he drives into Raikkonen. And then Kimi's car bumps into mine."
"If turn one hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been so aggressive and pushed Raikkonen out like that."
"I think they should understand that."
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verst ... es-811205/

So he admits that Kimi is the innocent party, but still tried to push him off track at high speed. Remember how after his crash in Monaco 2015, Max tried to blame Grosjean, saying that he brake checked him (the data proved otherwise)? Massa suggested in a subsequent press conference that the way Max refused to take responsibility and was not appropriately punished at the time was a bad precedent, since it wouldn't make him learn from the mistake. Verstappen's responded with this gem, which really demonstrates his mindset on the matter.
Asked what he learned, Verstappen replied: "I learned the cars are pretty strong, so I'm happy about that."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119303/
It's like he's trying to be the new Maldonado.

From Hamilton:
"Kimi doesn't make too many comments," Hamilton said, "unless it's a serious thing. So if Kimi says it is not right, then it is most likely not right."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/37210688

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Is Vettel under pressure to win?

He has four WDCs under his belt, a massive paycheck and a secure job at one of the world's most admired companies. Whilst there's a ton of pressure on Ferrari, there are plenty of drivers on the grid more desperate to win than Vettel.

ish2dachoppa wrote:
When a car crashes as hard as Magnussens did, and seemingly everything in the power train is now junk

Reattach the wheels with a replacement axle, give the chassis a good buffing, put KMAG back in the drivers seat and it will still be faster than Jolyon. ;)
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:00 am

zkojq wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Is Vettel under pressure to win?

He has four WDCs under his belt, a massive paycheck and a secure job at one of the world's most admired companies. Whilst there's a ton of pressure on Ferrari, there are plenty of drivers on the grid more desperate to win than Vettel.


I'd think it's BECAUSE he has 4 WDC & a massive paycheck that the expectation for him to deliver the goods is high. Let's not forget that Ferrari's last driver's championship win was almost a decade ago, won by the man Vettel crashed into at the start.
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:38 am

scbriml wrote:
Towards the end of last season, while their one-lap pace wasn't outstanding, they were often close on race pace. I think they flattered to deceive at the start of this season and in reality, they're as far off Mercedes as they ever were last season. The difference now is that Red Bull (thanks mainly to the improved Renault engine) have moved ahead of Ferrari. It's very telling that in the one race when Mercedes 'self destructed', it was Red Bull that won, not Ferrari.

True, but it's worth pointing out that when they won races last year it was as much as anything due to them being able to capitalise on Mercedes' mistakes or vulnerabilities. This year that's been completely absent with Ferrari's pitwall regularly giving Seb and Kimi bonkers strategy race after race.

scbriml wrote:
Personally, I've never been a fan and dislike the unfair advantages they get from the FIA, so it amuses me to see them struggle.

Whilst I'm for sure a member of The Tifosi, I agree that the way that prize money is automatically allocated to them is stupid.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I'd think it's BECAUSE he has 4 WDC & a massive paycheck that the expectation for him to deliver the goods is high.

It is true that a Ferrari WDC is worth far more than a WDC with any other team, especially when the team in question is little more than the marketing department of an energy drinks manufacturer. But Seb knows that even if he doesn't win, he will still be remembered well. For most drivers on the grid they know that they will fade into obscurity if they don't bring home the victories. As Ferrari's problems go, I don't think Sergio Marchionne's repeated comments are very helpful. Ross Brawn said something in an interview recently that suggested that the pressure on Ferrari was under resulted in the team focusing on short term (race-to-race) updates rather than long term development, or something to that effect. As ever with Ferrari; next year's the year!
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:04 pm

zkojq wrote:
There was no way for Vettel to see Max, but he should have played it safe and given Kimi a little more space anyway, however Max was the one with all four wheels off track as he divebombed down the inside....


He was also in a position where there was two car widths at least between Raikonnen and the edge of the track right up to the corner, when Raikonnen turned in - and given the fact that Max had his front wing level with Raikonnens front tyres well before anyone started turning in, indeed before the braking into the corner began, Raikonnen should have known he was there and should not have pinched him. Vettel should not have pinched Raikonnen - he had no idea what was on the other side of Raikonnen (as he admits) and therefor, as the outside car, should have given the inside car plenty of room to do what he wanted.

Max was entirely legitimate in his car position, and only had to drive off the circuit because Raikonnen turned in across him. Cant stamp on the brakes at that point, you will have a car up your arse faster than you can say "Wehrlein love taps Button".

I am loving the extent to which people are trying to blame Verstappen here...
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:40 pm

zkojq wrote:
How the hell can Max blame Kimi for the first turn incident??

He can't. He also didn't as far as I can tell, he blamed Vettel.
 
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:50 pm

moo wrote:
Raikonnen should have known he was there and should not have pinched him.


To be fair to Raikkonen, he only made contact with Verstappen after he'd been hit by Vettel.

zkojq wrote:
3rd is the minimum I would expect, considering he's in a car that's two seconds a lap (probably more at a long track like Spa) quicker than everyone else's.


Mercedes never had anything like that advantage at any point over the weekend. If Verstappen hadn't tangled with the Ferraris at the first corner, it's very unlikely Hamilton would have made the podium.
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moo
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:14 am

scbriml wrote:
moo wrote:
Raikonnen should have known he was there and should not have pinched him.


To be fair to Raikkonen, he only made contact with Verstappen after he'd been hit by Vettel.


Take another look at the head on shot of the start, Raikkonen doesnt leave Verstappen much room at all, even before Vettel feels up Raikkonen...

Mercedes never had anything like that advantage at any point over the weekend. If Verstappen hadn't tangled with the Ferraris at the first corner, it's very unlikely Hamilton would have made the podium.


I think Rosberg wasnt running the car to its potential at any point during the weekend - the only car on the track which could realistically challenge him for pole or the top spot was starting from the back, so why not dial the car back and save components.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:15 am

moo wrote:
I think Rosberg wasnt running the car to its potential at any point during the weekend - the only car on the track which could realistically challenge him for pole or the top spot was starting from the back, so why not dial the car back and save components.


But Hamilton would have had every reason to use all that pace advantage (if it existed), yet even from fifth at the red-flag restart he was unable to make any headway on Ricciardo. Hamilton's pace was never close to what you're suggesting and he had absolutely no reason to hold back. In fact, the main reason he was up to fifth was that he didn't stop for fresh tyres when the safety car was deployed. Let's not forget that Alonso started behind Hamilton and was actually ahead of him at the red flag, and he certainly doesn't enjoy a pace advantage.

For a number of reasons (ludicrously high tyre pressures being a major one), I don't believe Mercedes had anywhere near the performance advantage at Spa that you're suggesting they did.
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moo
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:34 am

scbriml wrote:
moo wrote:
I think Rosberg wasnt running the car to its potential at any point during the weekend - the only car on the track which could realistically challenge him for pole or the top spot was starting from the back, so why not dial the car back and save components.


But Hamilton would have had every reason to use all that pace advantage (if it existed), yet even from fifth at the red-flag restart he was unable to make any headway on Ricciardo. Hamilton's pace was never close to what you're suggesting and he had absolutely no reason to hold back. In fact, the main reason he was up to fifth was that he didn't stop for fresh tyres when the safety car was deployed. Let's not forget that Alonso started behind Hamilton and was actually ahead of him at the red flag, and he certainly doesn't enjoy a pace advantage.

For a number of reasons (ludicrously high tyre pressures being a major one), I don't believe Mercedes had anywhere near the performance advantage at Spa that you're suggesting they did.


I respectfully disagree with your conclusion :) I think both of them were taking it easy - Hamilton knew it was going to be a difficult race for him, and I think he wasnt even planning on fighting for a podium, it was the red flag which put him there. He was content to just take some points and save the engine for later races. Watching the start, he basically let Alonso through, he didnt want any chance of a DNF because of first lap problems, so I dont put any weight on him being behind Alonso at the red flag.

Hamilton now has three engines to last eight races - Rosberg two engines. Rosberg has to make his engines last five and four races (including Belgium, as thats when they used the current engine for the first time). Hamilton only has to get three races out of each engine - hes going to be turning those puppies way up for the rest of the season.

Hamilton got to turn the engine down for this race because of the red flag - he couldnt compete with Rosberg on pace alone, and he didnt need the points badly enough to truly fight Ricciardo for second, so he didn't do either.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:46 pm

moo wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your conclusion :)


Clearly we disagree, but no big deal. Personally, I just can't see Hamilton "settling" for third, if he could have got second.
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zckls04
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:09 am

scbriml wrote:
moo wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your conclusion :)


Clearly we disagree, but no big deal. Personally, I just can't see Hamilton "settling" for third, if he could have got second.


He doesn't usually settle for much, so I'm inclined to agree with you.

It doesn't seem like we're getting a whole lot of team radio at the moment, despite the fact that the ban has been lifted. Have the drivers become less chatty or is it my imagination?

moo wrote:
Take another look at the head on shot of the start, Raikkonen doesnt leave Verstappen much room at all, even before Vettel feels up Raikkonen...


I've watched again, and until Vettel is alongside Raikkonen Verstappen has tons of room. How do I post a screengrab?
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:45 am

zckls04 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
How do I post a screengrab?


You'll need to upload the image to a hosting site like PhotoBucket or Flickr, then use the Image button in the edit window toolbar (between the quote and smilie buttons) and paste the url to the photo.
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zckls04
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Re: F1 - Belgian GP, Spa-Francorchamps

Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:34 pm

scbriml wrote:
zckls04 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
How do I post a screengrab?


You'll need to upload the image to a hosting site like PhotoBucket or Flickr, then use the Image button in the edit window toolbar (between the quote and smilie buttons) and paste the url to the photo.


Yeah, I didn't really want to have to do all that, but evidently that's another feature that has been lost.

moo wrote:
Take another look at the head on shot of the start, Raikkonen doesnt leave Verstappen much room at all, even before Vettel feels up Raikkonen...


http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=396eb46

It's clear that Raikkonen is squeezing Verstappen, but there's still room for both cars to make the corner, and (crucially) they're approximately parallel. Look at the angle those two cars are at compared to the angle Vettel's at. If Vettel were not there, both cars would easily make the corner. Vettel's fault.

At least that's my opinion. First lap incident though, and it was correct not to give a penalty. Verstappen's block of Raikkonen was not OK though. That could have been nasty.
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