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alberchico
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Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:17 am

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/17/us/new-yo ... index.html

https://twitter.com/JonAvidor

Right in my old neighborhood :shock:

Edit: The explosion happened right in front of a residence for the blind, which makes it even more messed up if it was an intentional act...
 
ltbewr
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:41 am

An IED type bomb went off in or near a dumpster at 23rd Street and 6th Ave. in NYC at about 8:30 PM. Reported that 26 people injured, none seriously or life threating per current info. Subways and streets shut down through and around the area. PATH to 33rd Street is shut down due to scheduled weekend work. Appears part of the dumpster was blown off, shrapnel tearing into windows, walls of nearby buildings, several cars damaged. The dumpster is adjacent to a building undergoing a long-term renovation 135 W. 23rd St.
There was also a IED device that went off in a trash can near the boardwalk in Seaside Park, NJ, during a 5K run involving the US Marines, about 9:30 AM this morning. Fortunately due to a delay in the start of the race that no one was injured, but the area was under evacuation and investigations have continued.
Of course, one has to wonder if these were ISIS small cell or 'lone wolves'. The President has been informed, A huge Police and FBI investigation underway. One has to note this is only 1 week after the 15th Anniversary of the 9/11 terror acts.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:38 am

A few things I am wondering:

I have never been to New York but I had heard that Chelsea is a gay area. Maybe this is a terror attack against gays?
If so, why does MSM (read: Fox, Breitbart, Blaze, etc.) not label them as terrorist acts?
Why are terror attacks not more common outside of New York?
 
salttee
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:26 am

seb146 wrote:
why does MSM (read: Fox, Breitbart, Blaze, etc.) not label them as terrorist acts?

Blowing up dumpsters hardly seems like the work of terrorists. (I wonder if there is a nearby high school with a chemistry lab.)

The bombing near the Marine corps run is described as a pipe bomb, this blast is much larger than a pipe bomb, so maybe the two events are just coincidental.
 
Raventech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:11 am

seb146 wrote:
If so, why does MSM (read: Fox, Breitbart, Blaze, etc.) not label them as terrorist acts?

If you mean Main Stream Media, then I would not call Breitbart and Blaze main stream. Their popular in the right and libertarian (respectively) but they are still pretty niche agencies. When I think MSM I think Fox, MSNBC, CNN, New York Times etc. and except for Fox those organizations are typically left of center.

<puts on tin foil hat>
So that means they don't want the president to look bad so they cover it up so we don't realize how bad it really is.
<back to reality>

There is a little bit of truth to that, but if Fox isn't calling it a terrorist attack then it's not clear that it is an Islamic Terrorist attack. The news wing of Fox is fairly in the middle so my guess is that they haven't said its because no one knows whats going on yet aside from it was probably intentional. Note: I said the news reporting wing, not the commentary wing which it solidly in the right and will start playing up the terrorist attack possibility tomorrow.

seb146 wrote:
Why are terror attacks not more common outside of New York?


High population density combined with being a key city in American life. You probably won't see it hit small towns because unless it has a high value target (such as a power plant, etc) it will just be better theatrics for them in NYC and similar cities.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:29 pm

seb146 wrote:
If so, why does MSM (read: Fox, Breitbart, Blaze, etc.) not label them as terrorist acts?


I suppose they were going with what the NYC mayor said of the incident.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3794918/New-York-mayor-Blasio-fire-saying-no-evidence-terror-connection-said-Manhattan-explosion-intentional-act.html
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:02 pm

Raventech wrote:
There is a little bit of truth to that, but if Fox isn't calling it a terrorist attack then it's not clear that it is an Islamic Terrorist attack.


Not every terrorist is an islamic terrorist. Terrorists have existed before radical Islam and will keep existing after it's gone.
 
charlienorth
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:28 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Raventech wrote:
There is a little bit of truth to that, but if Fox isn't calling it a terrorist attack then it's not clear that it is an Islamic Terrorist attack.


Not every terrorist is an islamic terrorist. Terrorists have existed before radical Islam and will keep existing after it's gone.


Ya those Gay Morman groups are highly suspect :ugeek:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:16 pm

Erebus wrote:
I suppose they were going with what the NYC mayor said of the incident.


NY Governor says it was a terrorist attack.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37402130
A bomb that exploded in New York City was an act of terrorism, Governor Andrew Cuomo says, but no link to international groups has been found.

Mr Cuomo said significant damage had been caused and "we were lucky there were no fatalities". Saturday night's blast in Manhattan injured 29 people.
 
salttee
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:53 pm

Mr. Cuomo prefers a broad interpretation of the term "terrorist attack" it seems.

Methinks that tends to water down the term.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:26 pm

A bomb is an act of terrorism. It doesn't matter the bomber if someone inspired by ISIS, in the past such bombs in the USA were done by nut cases, right and left wing anti-government archaists, racists, Puerto Rican Nationalists, Left wing and Black radicals. It is an act of revenge, to frighten, distract, bring attention to some 'cause'. Gov. Cuomo is right to call it a terror act. He is also correct to not suggest or jump to the conclusion it was 'radical Islamic terrorists' until the perps are ID'ed.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:29 pm

All nations seem to have some element of potential domestic terrorism. The USA is no different; reference the various shootings and Timothy McVeigh. It might just be an echo chamber where like minds meet, but occasionally it does spill over into genuine violence. The Admiral Duncan bombing in London and others are just the same.

this makes me wonder if it isn't some lone wolf trying to influence the elections. Bomb the trendier districts of the most connected city in the world where news is 24 hour and won't let this go for some time. If anything it'll work on the undecideds; pushing them to an enraged Trump or conversely the competence of Hillary who counsels patience and letting the police do their work.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:02 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A bomb is an act of terrorism.


Actually, no. It may terrorize the people, but if there is no motive to coerce or intimidate the government or people toward some political or social objective, it is just violence.

salttee wrote:
Mr. Cuomo prefers a broad interpretation of the term "terrorist attack".


I agree. Words have meanings and their meanings tend to be important.

Francoflier wrote:
Not every terrorist is an islamic terrorist.


Correct, but they are the most active and most vocal, at this time.

seb146 wrote:
Maybe this is a terror attack against gays?


If it was directed against gays, because they are gay, then it is a terrorist attack, reminiscent of Orlando. If it's just some nut that wanted to kill people, then it's just some nut wanting to kill people.
 
BMI727
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:53 pm

seb146 wrote:
If so, why does MSM (read: Fox, Breitbart, Blaze, etc.) not label them as terrorist acts?

Because, unlike you, most media prefers to have facts and evidence when making assertions.

seb146 wrote:
Why are terror attacks not more common outside of New York?

They are, in Syria or Africa for example.

ltbewr wrote:
A bomb is an act of terrorism.

Not necessarily. Bombs have been used in mob hits.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:53 pm

seb146 wrote:
Maybe this is a terror attack against gays


Or, maybe a terrorist attack committed by a gay person:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ssion.html

An interesting development.

BMI727 wrote:
Because, unlike you, most media prefers to have facts and evidence when making assertions.


Ummm, I don't think I would support that position. In the age of Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr and all the other social media outlets out there, the MSM tends to leap before they look and hope for the best. Especially when the developing narrative supports their overall position on a particular topic.
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:38 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A bomb is an act of terrorism. It doesn't matter the bomber if someone inspired by ISIS, in the past such bombs in the USA were done by nut cases, right and left wing anti-government archaists, racists, Puerto Rican Nationalists, Left wing and Black radicals. It is an act of revenge, to frighten, distract, bring attention to some 'cause'.


Really? Are you that cocksure? Why is it that I had a fellow student (white) in eastern Iowa where I grew up, place a "pipe bomb" in my junior high school? Also, why did yet another white kid, place yet another "pipe bomb" in my high school? Terrorists were they? Not to mention we had at least 2 or 3 chemical bombs deployed at my high school in the early, early 1990s.

Why was it when I was in Jr. and Sr. high school the terrorists were always white, middle class kids, yet it was never called terrorism? Why did it take until the mid-to-late 1990s and 2000s before we called it "terrorism" but only when brown or black people were doing it?

Serious question.
 
BMI727
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:05 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Ummm, I don't think I would support that position. In the age of Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr and all the other social media outlets out there, the MSM tends to leap before they look and hope for the best. Especially when the developing narrative supports their overall position on a particular topic.

There is nothing wrong with reporting what is going across social media. In multiple events we've seen eyewitnesses reporting via social media and there is no problem with the media forwarding on those reports. They and we, as consumers, should take them for what they are.

PacificBeach88 wrote:
Why did it take until the mid-to-late 1990s and 2000s before we called it "terrorism" but only when brown or black people were doing it?

Because that is only true in your head.

Here is a newscast from the day of the Oklahoma City bombing, in which you will notice "terror" and related words being used quite often, including the title "Terror in the Heartland." Note that when this aired, McVeigh was in custody but not yet connected with the bombing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9Li_sxljk

After McVeigh was connected to the bombing there is also this clip (start at 1:50 or so) and you'll hear the bombing clearly being described as a terrorist attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqudbkvOKzU

So in fact, the reality is that people seemed to have no problem calling a terrorist act terrorism, either before blaming Muslims or after charging a white guy.
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:31 pm

BMI727 wrote:
Because that is only true in your head.


Given you were still sh**ing in your diapers, don't lecture me on what happened during the Oklahoma bombing kiddo.

The news media came out immediately and started calling the attack "terrorism" only because they were tying it to the Middle East. Only after several days of their ad nauseam coverage that the bombing must have come from brown people from the Middle East, were they forced to switch to white, Christian, nationalists. The media was boxed in by that point, so had to stick with their terrorism narrative.

“This is the deadliest terror attack on U.S. soil ever. A U.S. government source has told CBS News that it has Middle East terrorism written all over it.” - Connie Chung

“If you talk to intelligence sources and to law enforcement officials, they all say . . . that this particular bombing probably has roots in the Middle East.” - John McWethy

“We have been told that a number of extremist Islamic groups have been traced to the Oklahoma area, and while there is no specific link yet [to the bombing], I’ve been told that they are among those who are being looked at very, very closely.” - Frank Sesno

https://1995blog.com/2015/04/19/media-f ... c-bombing/
 
BMI727
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:51 pm

PacificBeach88 wrote:
Given you were still sh**ing in your diapers, don't lecture me on what happened during the Oklahoma bombing kiddo.

You should just admit that you were wrong rather than making yourself look even more foolish.

PacificBeach88 wrote:
The news media came out immediately and started calling the attack "terrorism" only because they were tying it to the Middle East. Only after several days of their ad nauseam coverage that the bombing must have come from brown people from the Middle East, were they forced to switch to white, Christian, nationalists. The media was boxed in by that point, so had to stick with their terrorism narrative.

Do you have any evidence of anyone who hesitated to call it terrorism until they found out what color the perpetrator(s) were?

PacificBeach88 wrote:
“This is the deadliest terror attack on U.S. soil ever. A U.S. government source has told CBS News that it has Middle East terrorism written all over it.” - Connie Chung

“If you talk to intelligence sources and to law enforcement officials, they all say . . . that this particular bombing probably has roots in the Middle East.” - John McWethy

“We have been told that a number of extremist Islamic groups have been traced to the Oklahoma area, and while there is no specific link yet [to the bombing], I’ve been told that they are among those who are being looked at very, very closely.” - Frank Sesno

Looking at Middle Eastern terrorists first had less to do with knee-jerk racism and more to do with the fact that Ramzi Yousef and his Al Qaeda associates had attacked the World Trade Center in a very similar manner two years prior.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:57 am

fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Maybe this is a terror attack against gays?


If it was directed against gays, because they are gay, then it is a terrorist attack, reminiscent of Orlando. If it's just some nut that wanted to kill people, then it's just some nut wanting to kill people.


And, as with the Orlando terror attack, it will be quickly forgotten by "fair and balanced" media.

Also, a gay bomber setting them off to call attention to oppression of LGBTQ has been discredited by law enforcement, according to the link in your other post. Why would someone in the LGBTQ community set off bombs in one of the most LGBTQ friendly cities in the world? Wouldn't it make more sense to cause disruption in, say, Kansas City or Dallas?
 
Mir
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:38 am

seb146 wrote:
A few things I am wondering:

I have never been to New York but I had heard that Chelsea is a gay area. Maybe this is a terror attack against gays?
If so, why does MSM (read: Fox, Breitbart, Blaze, etc.) not label them as terrorist acts?


Okay, let's nip this one in the bud.

I live in NYC. Chelsea is not a gay area. NYC doesn't really have "gay areas", except perhaps Greenwich Village (and even that isn't exclusively a gay area - it's more of a home to counterculture groups in general).

So let's put this talk of an attack on gays to rest.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:17 am

seb146 wrote:
Also, a gay bomber setting them off to call attention to oppression of LGBTQ has been discredited by law enforcement, according to the link in your other post. Why would someone in the LGBTQ community set off bombs in one of the most LGBTQ friendly cities in the world? Wouldn't it make more sense to cause disruption in, say, Kansas City or Dallas?


Also, that account called himself a "homosexual." No gay man ever calls himself that. We call ourselves gay, or queer, but seldom "homosexual." That's a word homophobes use. Someone was trying to frame the LGBT community.

I must, however, congratulate the bomber on the fact that the NYPD seems genuinely stumped.
 
stlgph
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:35 am

They're not too stumped. 5 people chased down on a highway and detained during a traffic stop.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:05 am

Mir wrote:
seb146 wrote:
A few things I am wondering:

I have never been to New York but I had heard that Chelsea is a gay area. Maybe this is a terror attack against gays?
If so, why does MSM (read: Fox, Breitbart, Blaze, etc.) not label them as terrorist acts?


Okay, let's nip this one in the bud.

I live in NYC. Chelsea is not a gay area. NYC doesn't really have "gay areas", except perhaps Greenwich Village (and even that isn't exclusively a gay area - it's more of a home to counterculture groups in general).

So let's put this talk of an attack on gays to rest.


I started by saying "I have never been to New York" because I don't know because I have never been to New York. We can live anywhere and do. There are gay friendly neighborhoods in some towns and I thought I had heard Chelsea was one. But, I don't know which is why I asked. Maybe it was an ex "getting back" at someone, no gender identity. Or, maybe it was a cultural attack i.e. Christians attacking Muslims or Hispanics attacking Thais. Or, maybe it was stupid teens on a dare.

I was simply asking a question originally because I don't know.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:07 am

DocLightning wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Also, a gay bomber setting them off to call attention to oppression of LGBTQ has been discredited by law enforcement, according to the link in your other post. Why would someone in the LGBTQ community set off bombs in one of the most LGBTQ friendly cities in the world? Wouldn't it make more sense to cause disruption in, say, Kansas City or Dallas?


Also, that account called himself a "homosexual." No gay man ever calls himself that. We call ourselves gay, or queer, but seldom "homosexual." That's a word homophobes use. Someone was trying to frame the LGBT community.

I must, however, congratulate the bomber on the fact that the NYPD seems genuinely stumped.


I don't think NYPD is stumped. They don't show their hand, from what I have noticed.

And I don't call myself gay or queer or homosexual. I call myself Eric.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:31 am

seb146 wrote:

I don't think NYPD is stumped. They don't show their hand, from what I have noticed.

And I don't call myself gay or queer or homosexual. I call myself Eric.


Looks like they might be following a lead now.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:34 am

seb146 wrote:
Why would someone in the LGBTQ community set off bombs in one of the most LGBTQ friendly cities in the world? Wouldn't it make more sense to cause disruption in, say, Kansas City or Dallas?


Why do we (society) continue to assign rational thinking to the irrational? Killing indiscriminately is irrational. We can not hope to figure their reasoning by using rational processes.

But, if the theory has been discredited, I guess this is a rabbit hole that need not be followed.


So, let's sum some of the events of the weekend, here in the states:

Bomb in Chelsea
Bomb in Seaside Park
Mass stabbing in Minnesota
Unexploded devices found in Elizabeth

Anything else?
 
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pvjin
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:25 pm

Apparently the suspect is Ahmad Khan Rahami, an Afghan born US citizen.

If he's actually trying to kill somebody he seems horribly incompetent at it.
 
salttee
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:25 pm

Blowing up a dumpster in the name of Allah is a surefire way of getting at least a half dozen virgins in the (promised) afterlife.
I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.
 
mham001
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:09 pm

PacificBeach88 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
A bomb is an act of terrorism. It doesn't matter the bomber if someone inspired by ISIS, in the past such bombs in the USA were done by nut cases, right and left wing anti-government archaists, racists, Puerto Rican Nationalists, Left wing and Black radicals. It is an act of revenge, to frighten, distract, bring attention to some 'cause'.


Really? Are you that cocksure? Why is it that I had a fellow student (white) in eastern Iowa where I grew up, place a "pipe bomb" in my junior high school? Also, why did yet another white kid, place yet another "pipe bomb" in my high school? Terrorists were they? Not to mention we had at least 2 or 3 chemical bombs deployed at my high school in the early, early 1990s.

Why was it when I was in Jr. and Sr. high school the terrorists were always white, middle class kids, yet it was never called terrorism? Why did it take until the mid-to-late 1990s and 2000s before we called it "terrorism" but only when brown or black people were doing it?

Serious question.


I'm having trouble finding news reports on those instances. It would be interesting to find the motives of those students but you have provided nothing. Do you have something to back up your claim and provide us more information?
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:33 pm

PacificBeach88 wrote:
Serious question.


You have to provide some context or specific instances. I remember a few bombs when I was a teenager, but I don't remember specifics.

As to why it's not called terrorism when one person does it, but not when another? It comes down to motivation and the letter of the law.

Domestic terrorism is defined, in 18 USC 2331, as:

(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.


Paragraph B is the operative clause.

Let's look at 2 recent mass shooting here in the US, by non-brown people.

Sandy Hook: not terrorism, because there was no clear motive or intent other than to kill.
Charleston Church Shooting: terrorism, because the intent was to intimidate the black community...in fact, the shooter left a living "witness" to tell what happened.


But, back to the story, looks like they got the guy, after a shoot-out:

http://abc7ny.com/news/investigators-na ... n/1517053/
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:09 pm

PacificBeach88 wrote:
Really? Are you that cocksure? Why is it that I had a fellow student (white) in eastern Iowa where I grew up, place a "pipe bomb" in my junior high school? Also, why did yet another white kid, place yet another "pipe bomb" in my high school? Terrorists were they? Not to mention we had at least 2 or 3 chemical bombs deployed at my high school in the early, early 1990s.

Why was it when I was in Jr. and Sr. high school the terrorists were always white, middle class kids, yet it was never called terrorism? Why did it take until the mid-to-late 1990s and 2000s before we called it "terrorism" but only when brown or black people were doing it?

Serious question.


Because blowing up a toilet with a cherry bomb is a prank. Those who did it (including me) never intended to hurt anyone, it wasn't meant as a political statement of any kind, it was simply for the laughs. It was also educational - an example of how water more effectively transfers energy than air, so it was an exercise in applied physics (I used that as an excuse - The school found it amusing enough that they let me off very easy - those were the days when schoolteachers had a sense of humor).
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:01 am

Dreadnought wrote:
PacificBeach88 wrote:
Really? Are you that cocksure? Why is it that I had a fellow student (white) in eastern Iowa where I grew up, place a "pipe bomb" in my junior high school? Also, why did yet another white kid, place yet another "pipe bomb" in my high school? Terrorists were they? Not to mention we had at least 2 or 3 chemical bombs deployed at my high school in the early, early 1990s.

Why was it when I was in Jr. and Sr. high school the terrorists were always white, middle class kids, yet it was never called terrorism? Why did it take until the mid-to-late 1990s and 2000s before we called it "terrorism" but only when brown or black people were doing it?

Serious question.


Because blowing up a toilet with a cherry bomb is a prank. Those who did it (including me) never intended to hurt anyone, it wasn't meant as a political statement of any kind, it was simply for the laughs. It was also educational - an example of how water more effectively transfers energy than air, so it was an exercise in applied physics (I used that as an excuse - The school found it amusing enough that they let me off very easy - those were the days when schoolteachers had a sense of humor).


An act of vandalism is amusing??? Destroying public property is amusing???? So, it is okay to blow things up "when you are a kid" or "if it is not a political statement"????

Kids in rural areas build pipe bombs and put them in garbage cans or mail boxes all the time. How amusing. They blow someone's hand off or someone's pet up and that is jolly good fun.

right.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:03 am

The suspect is Afghani. Trump Jr. blames (who else?) Syria

http://www.mediaite.com/online/trump-ca ... ee-crisis/
 
BMI727
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:05 am

seb146 wrote:
An act of vandalism is amusing??? Destroying public property is amusing???? So, it is okay to blow things up "when you are a kid" or "if it is not a political statement"????

Who said it was okay?

seb146 wrote:
They blow someone's hand off or someone's pet up and that is jolly good fun.

Congratulations on figuring out why bomb making for fun is a bad idea.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:18 am

BMI727 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
An act of vandalism is amusing??? Destroying public property is amusing???? So, it is okay to blow things up "when you are a kid" or "if it is not a political statement"????

Who said it was okay?

seb146 wrote:
They blow someone's hand off or someone's pet up and that is jolly good fun.

Congratulations on figuring out why bomb making for fun is a bad idea.


Talk to your friend Dreadnought. He laughed all this off because he was young and got less than a slap on the wrist, according to him.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:43 am

An act of vandalism is amusing??? Destroying public property is amusing???? So, it is okay to blow things up "when you are a kid" or "if it is not a political statement"????

Kids in rural areas build pipe bombs and put them in garbage cans or mail boxes all the time. How amusing. They blow someone's hand off or someone's pet up and that is jolly good fun.

right.


Then American parents in rural areas must suck really bad, such thing isn't at all common in rural parts of Finland. I can't remember a case of anybody blowing up anything in a school either.
 
mham001
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:36 pm

Since the usual race-baiter is desperately trying to pinpoint some type of racism, or something, against white people, there was the ELF, a group of petulant white kids who were long wanted as known "terrorists" by the media and the FBI.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:01 pm

This is what the discussion is about? Cherry bombs in the freaking school toilet? Are we that easily distracted?

Yes, it happens. Yes, it is illegal. Yes, it can lead to criminal charges, in addition to school disciplinary action. And, no, it is not terrorism...at least it wasn't back when we were sane.

Now, can we discuss this asshole that tried to kill a bunch of people with, what appear to be, home made bombs? That he failed is the only good thing about this. Or, did he fail? Was he just an attempt to gauge the response to an attack on a "low-value" target? Was it designed to see how the population would react to a series of small attacks, spread across a region, rather than the "one-big-blast" that we've come to expect?

Apparently, the guy is a naturalized American citizen of Afghani origin. He has visited Pakistan and Afghanistan a few times in the last several years and, spending about a year there the last time.

His wife has left the country (fled?), and, it was reported, his family was picked up, it's presumed, on their way to JFK. I haven't seen anything on that bit lately.

We can discuss this, or you guys can pick up on the latest breaking news from CNN: Angelina Jolie has filed for divorce from Brad Pitt.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:58 pm

fr8mech wrote:
This is what the discussion is about? Cherry bombs in the freaking school toilet? Are we that easily distracted?

Yes, it happens. Yes, it is illegal. Yes, it can lead to criminal charges, in addition to school disciplinary action. And, no, it is not terrorism...at least it wasn't back when we were sane.

Now, can we discuss this asshole that tried to kill a bunch of people with, what appear to be, home made bombs? That he failed is the only good thing about this. Or, did he fail? Was he just an attempt to gauge the response to an attack on a "low-value" target? Was it designed to see how the population would react to a series of small attacks, spread across a region, rather than the "one-big-blast" that we've come to expect?

Apparently, the guy is a naturalized American citizen of Afghani origin. He has visited Pakistan and Afghanistan a few times in the last several years and, spending about a year there the last time.

His wife has left the country (fled?), and, it was reported, his family was picked up, it's presumed, on their way to JFK. I haven't seen anything on that bit lately.

We can discuss this, or you guys can pick up on the latest breaking news from CNN: Angelina Jolie has filed for divorce from Brad Pitt.


I have never understood the obsession over Brad and Angela.

As far as the New York bomber, what was his motive? So he visited Pakistan and Afghanistan? So what? I have family in eastern Oregon and visit them often. I guess that makes me want to take over a bird sanctuary.

A certain group of people are freaking out and trying desperately to connect Islam to this bombing as soon as they can just so they can "prove" that Islam is bad and that ALL Muslims want Americans dead.

With all the Muslims in major urban centers across the United States, one would think there would be thousands of Islamic attacks. How many have there been in the past year? Three? Four? For the number of Muslims in the United States whom we should all be deathly afraid of, I would say that is pretty good odds. I would say that is more of a cast of "a few nut bags claiming to be something" rather than "every last one of them is."
 
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pvjin
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:08 pm

As far as the New York bomber, what was his motive? So he visited Pakistan and Afghanistan? So what? I have family in eastern Oregon and visit them often. I guess that makes me want to take over a bird sanctuary.


Both Pakistan and Afghanistan are known as countries that have serious problems with radical Islam, so it's pretty natural to mention such visits. It isn't at all unusual for radicalized people to travel somewhere to obtain training and so on.

A certain group of people are freaking out and trying desperately to connect Islam to this bombing as soon as they can just so they can "prove" that Islam is bad and that ALL Muslims want Americans dead.


Anybody with a brain can see that Islam isn't an ideology that promotes peace and tolerance, so nobody exactly needs to "prove" that it's bad.

Not all Muslims want Americans dead, but this one probably wanted.

With all the Muslims in major urban centers across the United States, one would think there would be thousands of Islamic attacks. How many have there been in the past year? Three? Four? For the number of Muslims in the United States whom we should all be deathly afraid of, I would say that is pretty good odds. I would say that is more of a cast of "a few nut bags claiming to be something" rather than "every last one of them is."


You don't have that many Muslims, both France and Germany have more despite much smaller populations. Also, the United States is known to generally integrate its migrants better than European countries, largely due to lack of European style social welfare.

However, here in Europe we have plenty of evidence which shows that nothing good comes out large scale of Islamic migration to western countries, especially when the migrants are mostly of lower socioeconomic and educational background.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:13 am

seb146 wrote:
I have family in eastern Oregon and visit them often.


Maybe we'd be more concerned with Oregon if it were a hotbed of terrorist activity.

The reason people are trying to connect [any attacker] with a particular group is so that we can try and understand the why. Absent figuring out the "why", we need to figure out a way to stop them. Maybe at the source, maybe at the border, maybe during the planning, maybe during the lead up, but most certainly, we need to figure out how to stop them before the execution.

And, determining their affiliations is a step in determining their motivations.

seb146 wrote:
Islam is bad and that ALL Muslims want Americans dead


Islam is not bad, in of itself, but there are certain adherents to Islam that are most certainly bad...and they most certainly want non-believers, especially those of us in the west, dead. How many? Certainly not a majority. Actually, I suspect the percentage of hard-core, extremist Islamists, is in the low single digits. But, when you're talking about a religion that claims 1.5 Billion followers, even 1% is a significant number.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:23 am

fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I have family in eastern Oregon and visit them often.


Maybe we'd be more concerned with Oregon if it were a hotbed of terrorist activity.

The reason people are trying to connect [any attacker] with a particular group is so that we can try and understand the why. Absent figuring out the "why", we need to figure out a way to stop them. Maybe at the source, maybe at the border, maybe during the planning, maybe during the lead up, but most certainly, we need to figure out how to stop them before the execution.

And, determining their affiliations is a step in determining their motivations.

seb146 wrote:
Islam is bad and that ALL Muslims want Americans dead


Islam is not bad, in of itself, but there are certain adherents to Islam that are most certainly bad...and they most certainly want non-believers, especially those of us in the west, dead. How many? Certainly not a majority. Actually, I suspect the percentage of hard-core, extremist Islamists, is in the low single digits. But, when you're talking about a religion that claims 1.5 Billion followers, even 1% is a significant number.


I completely agree with all of your points. What gets me is when people paint Muslims and Islam with a broad brush. Like Kim Davis and Mike Huckabee using their brand of religion to justify hate. That means that all Christians hate. Same use of logic. And that is wrong. We should be watching people who spend six months or longer in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Yemen or certain other countries for non-aid reasons. We should be watching people who travel to those countries and get married there. But calling all Muslims terrorists is wrong. I know it is not going to stop, but it should.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:28 am

seb146 wrote:
I completely agree with all of your points.


seb146 wrote:
We should be watching people who spend six months or longer in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Yemen or certain other countries for non-aid reasons. We should be watching people who travel to those countries and get married there.


Good, so you agree that we should be profiling people that spend an inordinate amount of time in places where terrorists have great influence.

Now, we know that the FBI looked at this guy and decided that he wasn't a threat. How hard did they look? Even his father suggested he was a terrorist.

There is no easy answer: how do we balance our constitutional rights and our personal liberties against our safety and national security?

Interesting read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/21/nyreg ... hone-share

Personally, this is the scary scenario. The so-called lone wolf. The guy that doesn't participate in chatter. The guy that sits at home and plans. The guy that comes out of nowhere.

The only good thing is that they are, necessarily, not coordinating with others, so their attacks don't have the impact they could if there were several around the country within a few hours of each other.
 
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seb146
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:58 am

fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I completely agree with all of your points.


seb146 wrote:
We should be watching people who spend six months or longer in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Yemen or certain other countries for non-aid reasons. We should be watching people who travel to those countries and get married there.


Good, so you agree that we should be profiling people that spend an inordinate amount of time in places where terrorists have great influence.

Now, we know that the FBI looked at this guy and decided that he wasn't a threat. How hard did they look? Even his father suggested he was a terrorist.

There is no easy answer: how do we balance our constitutional rights and our personal liberties against our safety and national security?

Interesting read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/21/nyreg ... hone-share

Personally, this is the scary scenario. The so-called lone wolf. The guy that doesn't participate in chatter. The guy that sits at home and plans. The guy that comes out of nowhere.

The only good thing is that they are, necessarily, not coordinating with others, so their attacks don't have the impact they could if there were several around the country within a few hours of each other.


Just because his dad said he is a terrorist proves nothing. KCBS had an interview this afternoon with a man from UC-Riverside who was NYPD before teaching. He said there are several lists kept by the government. Some are worse than others, some are classified. Very interesting.

There are people who surround themselves with only what backs up what is going on in their hearts and minds.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:46 am

I haven't researched the story in detail, but I'm not sure a dual citizen with Afghanistan citizenship going to Afghanistan and Pakistan will raise red flags, at least it's not obvious to me.

Then again if the NSA is spying on me, maybe they should be spying on him.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:27 pm

Aesma wrote:
I haven't researched the story in detail, but I'm not sure a dual citizen with Afghanistan citizenship going to Afghanistan and Pakistan will raise red flags, at least it's not obvious to me.

Then again if the NSA is spying on me, maybe they should be spying on him.


If it isn't raising some sort of flag, maybe it should. The accounts I read tell us that these were extended visits, and upon his return, he was different.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:39 pm

Aesma wrote:
I haven't researched the story in detail, but I'm not sure a dual citizen with Afghanistan citizenship going to Afghanistan and Pakistan will raise red flags, at least it's not obvious to me.


I imagine it really depends how it's done. If, for example, he flies New York to Istanbul or Dubai on his US passport, how will any US authorities know if he subsequently books and travels to Afghanistan and/or Pakistan on his other passport?

fr8mech wrote:
If it isn't raising some sort of flag, maybe it should.


Does US immigration know if someone has dual nationality? So they see someone leave the US for, say, Turkey, then they return six months later. When asked what they were doing for six months, they say visiting friends and relatives in remote villages. How does US immigration know if he's travelled on his other passport while he was out of the US (assuming he wasn't dumb enough to book the onward travel while still in the US!)?
 
rfields5421
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:57 pm

scbriml wrote:
Does US immigration know if someone has dual nationality? So they see someone leave the US for, say, Turkey, then they return six months later. When asked what they were doing for six months, they say visiting friends and relatives in remote villages. How does US immigration know if he's travelled on his other passport while he was out of the US (assuming he wasn't dumb enough to book the onward travel while still in the US!)?


Somewhere in some agency, the US likely knows a person has dual nationality. However the US doesn't consider dual nationality a valid concept. Also the database which might contain that information would very likely not be accessible to Immigration at the port of entry.

A US citizen being outside the US for six months would very likely not be questioned in any detail about where he/ she traveled and what he/she did while outside the country by Immigration upon their return. Such questions have to be asked by an intelligence/ law enforcement agency - and that agency must obtain information from outside the US before they can question a US citizen about their actions.

------------------

The US conservatives and liberal politicians have made it extremely difficult for US immigration to track the activities of US citizens abroad. There is no record of exit from the country maintained.

Recently we were along the Mexico/US border in south Texas (having dental work done in Mexico). We simply walked across the border bridge each day into Mexico. The only time we talked to US Border Patrol/Customs was at the entry point to get back into the US.

The US Congress has put many restrictions on sharing of data between agencies about US citizens. The US State Department would likely have information about dual nationality, yet they cannot share data they have on US citizens with Homeland Security. (Conservatives fear the government tracking every movement of US citizens, liberals fear the same thing. For different base reasons - but both groups do everything they can to prevent the US government from gathering and maintaining information of the travels of US citizens.)

Only if the US citizen's name and identity come up in a criminal investigation are US agencies allowed to attempt to track that person.

Filtering out one or two people and their travels/ actions in hindsight is extremely easy. Filtering out the same people in real-time among thousands of traveling US citizens is extremely hard.

------------------------

As mentioned above - many agencies keep lists of people to watch for, people who might be a threat at some point.

Activists and politicians have done a great job of making it impossible for the different agencies to share information / lists. They do have a point - without some knowledge of the criteria that puts someone on such a list - there is no way to ensure that completely innocent US citizens do not have their rights restricted/ compromised.

We can't even agree on how to handle the No-Fly list. Conservatives and groups like the NRA insist that people on the No-Fly list must not be prevented from buying guns, even guns that can be quickly converted to automatic fire mode, or 50+ round magazines.

Because there is no ability/ mechanism to challenge if a person is put on the No-Fly list 'in error'.

Those groups fear a liberal government could put political opponents on the No-Fly list and use that justification to take away their guns.

Liberal groups fear a conservative government could put political opponents on the No-Fly list and use that justification to restrict their travel.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breaking News: Explosion reported in New York

Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:54 pm

scbriml wrote:
Does US immigration know if someone has dual nationality?


As stated, the US does not recognize a dual-national. But, my passport does list the nation of my birth.

scbriml wrote:
How does US immigration know if he's travelled on his other passport while he was out of the US (assuming he wasn't dumb enough to book the onward travel while still in the US!)?


Realistically? They can't. That doesn't mean that a person that visits one of those alleged terrorist havens shouldn't undergo further scrutiny if their absence from the US meets some parameters.

rfields5421 wrote:
The US Congress has put many restrictions on sharing of data between agencies about US citizens.
rfields5421 wrote:
Conservatives and groups like the NRA insist that people on the No-Fly list must not be prevented from buying guns, even guns that can be quickly converted to automatic fire mode, or 50+ round magazines.


And, rightly so. We can not, from fear, deny residents of the US civil and/or constitutional rights simply because they are suspected of being terrorists. How many are on the terror watch list, and what did they do to get there? Is there due process? Will we further restrict their constitutional rights? If we are agreed that terrorists may use their religion as a justification for their acts, shouldn't we restrict their access to a religious establishment or restrict their freedom of assembly? Or, at the minimum, simply abrogate their Fourth Amendment rights and search their person, their property and their possessions at will? Shouldn't we be allowed to search/bug their religious establishments without due process, simply because they are on the terror watch list, regardless of religious affiliation?

It's not the guns, it's the rights.

And, from a practical, law enforcement position, if the person doesn't know he's on the terror watch list, why tip him off?

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