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A332DTW
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Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:07 am

I assume it's safe to say we are off the tracks on climate change.

For the first time, daily and weekly values of carbon dioxide in our planet's atmosphere have remained above 400 parts per million, said Scripps scientist Ralph Keeling, keeper of his father's famed "Keeling Curve," the longest continuous record of atmospheric carbon dioxide on Earth.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/scie ... /91279952/

Whether you accept the science or not, CO2 doesn't care.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:37 am

Worldwide temperature averages have made measurable increases every month from previous years for years now. We have been in a natural warming cycle since the early 1800's, and the rate of increase has been compounded by human activity, industrialization, exponential rates in increase in burning fossil fuels and number of humans on the planet.
 
A332DTW
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:04 pm

The fact we were at 280 ppm at the start of the industrial revolution and now have crossed the point of no return at 400 ppm is damning. That span of time is not even a drop in a bucket compared to the scale of geological time. Our hope with curbing climate change now is really just to mitigate the effects of it. If I understand it correctly, stopping or slowing it down is too late.
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:19 pm

A332DTW wrote:
The fact we were at 280 ppm at the start of the industrial revolution and now have crossed the point of no return at 400 ppm is damning. That span of time is not even a drop in a bucket compared to the scale of geological time. Our hope with curbing climate change now is really just to mitigate the effects of it. If I understand it correctly, stopping or slowing it down is too late.


That has always been the case. The thought that mankind would somehow bring climate change under control was the height of arrogance to begin with (actually the whole Global Warming movement was more about obtaining money and power than actually doing anything useful).

If the seas rise, move inland. And if the climate does get warmer everywhere, think of all the farmland and resources in Siberia and Northern Canada which become more habitable and usable.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:30 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
A332DTW wrote:
The fact we were at 280 ppm at the start of the industrial revolution and now have crossed the point of no return at 400 ppm is damning. That span of time is not even a drop in a bucket compared to the scale of geological time. Our hope with curbing climate change now is really just to mitigate the effects of it. If I understand it correctly, stopping or slowing it down is too late.


That has always been the case. The thought that mankind would somehow bring climate change under control was the height of arrogance to begin with (actually the whole Global Warming movement was more about obtaining money and power than actually doing anything useful).

If the seas rise, move inland. And if the climate does get warmer everywhere, think of all the farmland and resources in Siberia and Northern Canada which become more habitable and usable.

Where is all that money pray tell? And power? Republicans are the majority in congress and have continued to prove that for republicans climate change, along with evolution and science in general, is a myth as they line up behind orange orangutan chief science/reality-denier and true chri$tian® Trump.
 
A332DTW
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:28 am

Dreadnought wrote:
A332DTW wrote:
The fact we were at 280 ppm at the start of the industrial revolution and now have crossed the point of no return at 400 ppm is damning. That span of time is not even a drop in a bucket compared to the scale of geological time. Our hope with curbing climate change now is really just to mitigate the effects of it. If I understand it correctly, stopping or slowing it down is too late.


That has always been the case. The thought that mankind would somehow bring climate change under control was the height of arrogance to begin with (actually the whole Global Warming movement was more about obtaining money and power than actually doing anything useful).

If the seas rise, move inland. And if the climate does get warmer everywhere, think of all the farmland and resources in Siberia and Northern Canada which become more habitable and usable.


That's not what I really mean when I say we have to mitigate the effects of climate change. When major coastal cities go under water, there will be mass migration. The current Syrian refugee crisis will pale in comparison. And if we as a society have learned anything throughout our existance it's that when new and different people get too close it doesn't result in anything peaceful. Wars will be inevitable. Resources will become scarce. Things will get bad. Preparing for that now is better than waiting until it's too late to do something... Again. I still think renewable energy is key. When the lights go out and society begins to teeter on extinction, resources like wind and solar could make a difference.

In preparation for more powerful storms, our infrastructure needs major upgrades to withstand more powerful winds. These are things we can decide to do now if we want to be prepared.
 
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Kaphias
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:31 am

Dreadnought wrote:
If the seas rise, move inland.

You're not wrong, but I'd suggest you'd read about the challenges some Alaskan communities have had with "moving inland". Shishmaref would be one example.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:10 am

Dreadnought wrote:
That has always been the case. The thought that mankind would somehow bring climate change under control was the height of arrogance to begin with (actually the whole Global Warming movement was more about obtaining money and power than actually doing anything useful).


You have zero education in climatology and yet you state these things. Perhaps you'd like to lecture me about vaccines and GMOs. And perhaps you'd like to lecture an astrophysicist on the Big Bang theory. And perhaps you'd like to lecture EinsteinBoricua, who actually is a meteorologist, about climate change.

"'Tis better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.'" -My grandmother
 
Zeppi
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:12 am

In all fairness, Dreadnought may have a rather simplified view on the matter at hand, yet bashing him on that is a little harsh IMHO. Indeed a lot of the doom and gloom we are fed about "global warming" is quite grossly exaggerated. Yes, CO2 levels have risen significantly due to industrialisation, but 400ppm is hardly the end of the world, let alone "irreversible", it has been much higher, 1000ppm+ and life didn't cease to exist on our nice little planet. Climate by its very nature is highly volatile, sometimes more, sometimes less so, influenced by a myriad of factors we have zero control about. CO2 is only one of them, while we can control it by limiting our emission, it will not "stop" climate change as such. We will have to adapt, whether we like it or not. Yes, weather patterns will shift, there will be more coastal flooding, wetter areas, dryer areas, colder areas, hotter areas; we can already see all of that happening right now. The CO2 will however, as it has always done, find its automatic peak through positive feedbacks in the natural carbon cylce. Not so much trees and other land based photosynthesizing species, but rather marine based ones, primarily cyanobacteria (e.g. stromatolites) and phytoplankton. More CO2 means those really strive, leading to a reduction in CO2 and an incrase in O2, until the process eventually reverses and settles in a new equilibrium, as has happened many times during earth's history.
We should worry less about the CO2 and insteat focus on all the really toxic stuff we release on a daily basis, which is not easily absorbed by natural cycles. Be it various heavy metals through NOx emissions, those can and will create some serious headaches (no pun intended) in the future, if we don't handle them better. And just for the record, I'm a biophysicist...
 
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ER757
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:47 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Worldwide temperature averages have made measurable increases every month from previous years for years now. We have been in a natural warming cycle since the early 1800's, and the rate of increase has been compounded by human activity, industrialization, exponential rates in increase in burning fossil fuels and number of humans on the planet.

Well stated - I agree that the warming taking place is part natural cycle, part human-caused. The biggest problem is going to be when temps in the northern latitudes reach a point where significant melting of the permafrost occurs releasing vast quantities of stored methane, which is a far more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2. If/when that happens, the "point of no return" will have been crossed.
Can humans, by taking preventative and mitigating measures make enough of a difference in the warming trend to stop or reverse it? And if so at what cost? And how much of a difference can they make for that cost? These are the big questions and should be focused on, not the question of whether change is occurring. I can't believe that is even still brought up by any sentient being at this stage.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:20 pm

Zeppi wrote:
In all fairness, Dreadnought may have a rather simplified view on the matter at hand, yet bashing him on that is a little harsh IMHO. Indeed a lot of the doom and gloom we are fed about "global warming" is quite grossly exaggerated. Yes, CO2 levels have risen significantly due to industrialisation, but 400ppm is hardly the end of the world, let alone "irreversible", it has been much higher, 1000ppm+ and life didn't cease to exist on our nice little planet.


It has never, in the history of the planet, changed so quickly. And while life existed before we had an oxygen atmosphere, the chemical equilibria were much different. The Earth was younger. You would not have wanted to walk in the open air in those days; you would have died. You also have no climatological education and you have no scientific basis to the claims you make. You are no better than he.

I have two degrees in molecular biology and a degree in medicine. I love when people with no formal education in either topic start to try to explain their favorite pet scientific theories to me about GE crops or vaccines. They don't even know what DNA ligase is, they've never even worked through a recombination scenario, and they think they understand genetic engineering. They don't know an interleukin from T-cell receptor and they "have done their research" on vaccines.

I am not a climatologist, so I listen to what they say. I listen to what they say because I know that their science is every bit as complex as mine.

Dunning and Krueger would be proud of both of you.
 
A332DTW
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:41 pm

Zeppi wrote:
In all fairness, Dreadnought may have a rather simplified view on the matter at hand, yet bashing him on that is a little harsh IMHO. Indeed a lot of the doom and gloom we are fed about "global warming" is quite grossly exaggerated. Yes, CO2 levels have risen significantly due to industrialisation, but 400ppm is hardly the end of the world, let alone "irreversible", it has been much higher, 1000ppm+ and life didn't cease to exist on our nice little planet. Climate by its very nature is highly volatile, sometimes more, sometimes less so, influenced by a myriad of factors we have zero control about. CO2 is only one of them, while we can control it by limiting our emission, it will not "stop" climate change as such. We will have to adapt, whether we like it or not. Yes, weather patterns will shift, there will be more coastal flooding, wetter areas, dryer areas, colder areas, hotter areas; we can already see all of that happening right now. The CO2 will however, as it has always done, find its automatic peak through positive feedbacks in the natural carbon cylce. Not so much trees and other land based photosynthesizing species, but rather marine based ones, primarily cyanobacteria (e.g. stromatolites) and phytoplankton. More CO2 means those really strive, leading to a reduction in CO2 and an incrase in O2, until the process eventually reverses and settles in a new equilibrium, as has happened many times during earth's history.
We should worry less about the CO2 and insteat focus on all the really toxic stuff we release on a daily basis, which is not easily absorbed by natural cycles. Be it various heavy metals through NOx emissions, those can and will create some serious headaches (no pun intended) in the future, if we don't handle them better. And just for the record, I'm a biophysicist...


What is the significance of 400ppm? According to the article, we will stay above 400ppm indefinitely. You have to understand that I have a limited scope on science, the base of my knowledge going back to high school and a couple courses in college. So when I hear words like "point of no return" I think of it in the way of aerial navigation. And when you cross the PNR in aerial navigation, suffice to say, you know you're not getting back and your best bet is to prepare for whatever happens ahead.
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:53 am

Zeppi wrote:
In all fairness, Dreadnought may have a rather simplified view on the matter at hand, yet bashing him on that is a little harsh IMHO. Indeed a lot of the doom and gloom we are fed about "global warming" is quite grossly exaggerated. Yes, CO2 levels have risen significantly due to industrialisation, but 400ppm is hardly the end of the world, let alone "irreversible", it has been much higher, 1000ppm+ and life didn't cease to exist on our nice little planet.


No, it wasn't harsh, he's a moron and so are you for declaring as much if you actually believe that. Yes, "life existed" when CO2 levels were higher....but the last time they were this high or even as high as 1,000 ppm, HUMANS DIDN"T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One has to be willfully ignorant or a troll to deny such. Which is it? Please deny the below science article and list your advanced university degrees in doing so, Dr. Carbon Denier.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/the- ... xist-15938
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:47 am

DocLightning wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
That has always been the case. The thought that mankind would somehow bring climate change under control was the height of arrogance to begin with
You have zero education in climatology and yet you state these things. Perhaps you'd like to lecture me about vaccines and GMOs. And perhaps you'd like to lecture an astrophysicist on the Big Bang theory. And perhaps you'd like to lecture EinsteinBoricua, who actually is a meteorologist, about climate change.

Unfortunately, gotta disagree. He actually has a point.

Hold on for a second (....*puke*)
Okay, back. :?

Just like we have to face the fact that our indiscretions are screwing with the climate; we also have to face the fact that humans are not going to *stop* the climate from changing. No educated person can make the claim that we can, and expect to be taken seriously.

The earth has NEVER had the same climate for an geologically-significant period of time, and it never will.

That doesn't give us license to continue being horrible stewards of our environment; but the belief that humans can somehow "stop" climate change is as ridiculous as denial of climate change.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:44 am

The Earth has never put us on the Moon, yet some Humans did go there.

We won't stop the change we're causing because not enough of us want to, not because it's impossible.
 
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mad99
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:22 am

Aesma wrote:
The Earth has never put us on the Moon, yet some Humans did go there.

We won't stop the change we're causing because not enough of us want to, not because it's impossible.



during the summer the BBC announced that Scotland produced enough wind powered energy to sustain itself for the day. Granted it was a summer windy day but its a start.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:08 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Worldwide temperature averages have made measurable increases every month from previous years for years now. We have been in a natural warming cycle since the early 1800's, and the rate of increase has been compounded by human activity, industrialization, exponential rates in increase in burning fossil fuels and number of humans on the planet.

This is how I would describe it.

Climate change is inevitable; the planet is always changing. The questions are how fast, at what magnitude, and what effect do humans have? Man is not causing climate change, but I'm a firm believer that human activity is causing climate change to be more pronounced than ever before. Only someone in denial would look at charts of temperatures and tell me the data is made up (and I've had people say that).

Dreadnought wrote:
That has always been the case. The thought that mankind would somehow bring climate change under control was the height of arrogance to begin with (actually the whole Global Warming movement was more about obtaining money and power than actually doing anything useful).

You'd think you'd be happy with a new industry supporting jobs in both manufacture and science. I guess jobs are only OK if they don't threaten the status quo.

Dreadnought wrote:
If the seas rise, move inland.

Kiribati and other Pacific island nations don't have such a thing as "move inland". There's only so much you could do before you become a mini Hong-Kong.

Dreadnought wrote:
And if the climate does get warmer everywhere, think of all the farmland and resources in Siberia and Northern Canada which become more habitable and usable.
And think about all of the existing farmland elsewhere that will go to waste due to harsher conditions (whether desertification or warmer conditions). Think about how rich Canada and Russia would become by becoming the new breadbaskets of the world and being able to force other nations to bankruptcy with higher food prices.

Oil will no longer be the world's most sought after resource. Oh no. If your nation encircles a body of water and rivers feed it, you'll do everything you can to keep the flow of water moving. If the rivers start within your borders, you're OK. If a river starts elsewhere and meanders through several countries before emptying out to sea or to a lake, expect wars over who controls the water supply.

A small country with a small army but fertile lands would find itself under siege so that the victor gets to control those lands.

Think your water bill is too much? Expect higher bills when desalination plants are built to make up for lost groundwater. And that's only if your state/country is willing/able to build them.

Bet you didn't think of that, did you? The argument sounds a lot like Gary Johnson's argument (paraphrased): "we're gonna die anyway so why bother?"

I will agree that the term has been sensationalized and that it's too early to know if the effects will be as dire as people claim. But I would much rather not take the risk.

To put it bluntly, here's an analogy: if you move to Oklahoma, you know you're prone to a tornado destroying your home. It doesn't mean you WILL see one, but chances are higher. The doomsday scenarios are all concurrent: strong winds, severe thunderstorms, hail, etc. That may be all that happens: all bark and no bite. But you may also find that a tornado can form and head your way. It may be an EF0 tornado with a few roof shingles loose or an EF5 with nothing but the foundation remaining. Because of the uncertainty, wouldn't you take steps to insure your house against potential damages? Hint: I'm not gonna believe that you'll take the defeatist attitude of "well, I'm gonna die anyway" or "well, a natural disaster is inevitable anyway" to not insure against losses.
Last edited by einsteinboricua on Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Loran
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:23 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
If the seas rise, move inland.

Strange logic. Are you aware that half of the world population live in coastal areas? Moving 3-4 billion people, large cities, the whole infrastructure is simply impossible. It is in fact much cheaper to fight climate change now, it is still 'affordable' (2-3% of the world GDP IIRC). Relocating half of the world population would result in a multiple of these costs, not to mention that some countries will cease to exist.

Even if someone denies climate change, there are enough reasons to move away from carbon-based energies:
  • You are not dependent on volatile oil prices any more,
  • You do not have to import oil from unstable countries,
  • You no longer draim money to those countries,
  • You support your local industry,
  • You are not relying on an exhaustible resource, and the list goes on.

Regards,
Loran
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:27 pm

Loran wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
If the seas rise, move inland.

Strange logic. Are you aware that half of the world population live in coastal areas? Moving 3-4 billion people, large cities, the whole infrastructure is simply impossible. It is in fact much cheaper to fight climate change now, it is still 'affordable' (2-3% of the world GDP IIRC). Relocating half of the world population would result in a multiple of these costs, not to mention that some countries will cease to exist.

Even if someone denies climate change, there are enough reasons to move away from carbon-based energies:
  • You are not dependent on volatile oil prices any more,
  • You do not have to import oil from unstable countries,
  • You no longer draim money to those countries,
  • You support your local industry,
  • You are not relying on an exhaustible resource, and the list goes on.

Regards,
Loran


Denying climate change is stupid, climate change is a fact.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:10 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
To put it bluntly, here's an analogy: if you move to Oklahoma, you know you're prone to a tornado destroying your home. It doesn't mean you WILL see one, but chances are higher. The doomsday scenarios are all concurrent: strong winds, severe thunderstorms, hail, etc. That may be all that happens: all bark and no bite. But you may also find that a tornado can form and head your way. It may be an EF0 tornado with a few roof shingles loose or an EF5 with nothing but the foundation remaining. Because of the uncertainty, wouldn't you take steps to insure your house against potential damages? Hint: I'm not gonna believe that you'll take the defeatist attitude of "well, I'm gonna die anyway" or "well, a natural disaster is inevitable anyway" to not insure against losses.


I often wonder why houses aren't more solidly built in some places of the US.

In France there are no tornadoes, yet most houses are made out of stone, brick, or concrete.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:07 pm

LAX772LR wrote:

Just like we have to face the fact that our indiscretions are screwing with the climate; we also have to face the fact that humans are not going to *stop* the climate from changing. No educated person can make the claim that we can, and expect to be taken seriously.


Over anthropogenic timescales, we can stop climate change, since the changes occurring over geologic timescales are negligible over a span of a few decades. Over geologic timescales...

...we can stop climate change if we survive. If civilization survives over hundreds of thousands of years, then we will become a Kardashev Class I civilization and even possibly Class II. Class III will take several million years at the most optimistic.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:48 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Over anthropogenic timescales, we can stop climate change, since the changes occurring over geologic timescales are negligible over a span of a few decades.

Would (in many circumstances) disagree even with that.

As someone who grew up in south Louisiana, I've seen that state spend billions upon billions of dollars attempting to "stop" coastal erosion; only to see the coast recede by dozens of miles just in the time frame that I've been paying attention.

I'll probably be around to see New Orleans become beachfront property.
The next generation will likely see it submerged-- this time, permanently.

Same for Miami.

To reiterate: I completely reject the rightwing notion that human-induced climate change is some kind of hoax, and that we should just trudge along like nothing is happening. But thinking that we can "stop" (many aspects of) it, even within time frames relatable to the human experience, is sometimes just as fanciful.
 
ContentCreator
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:51 pm

My partner and I are doing our part by choosing not to have children. Imagine the ecological burden each new child will have on the planet.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:32 pm

The Paris Climate Agreement is set to go in effect on November 4 after it met the required thresholds for activation. China and the US are parties to the agreement. I'm hopeful both carry out meaningful reforms in the coming years.
 
YZF101
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:04 pm

I'm not looking forward to the lessening of our economic standing by ignoring our on-shore oil supplies, instead focussing on transporting it halfway across the world. And the added costs of paying taxes for a fanciful trendy ideology.

Anthropolgic (did I get that right?) climate change is not quite a fairy tale, but those who had a clue ages ago would have been far better off (and better believed) if they would have pushed the anti-pollution aspect of things rather than getting into some kind of weird tale telling. It is fanciful to believe that us giving some government entity almost $3K a year will somehow change things for the better?

It's almost sad to read a few articles that seem to postulate that the whole ozone issue was bogus - I truly want to believe that removing those CFCs were indeed the fix that was needed.

The elephant in the room seems to be not he amount of plant food issued into the atmosphere, but the actual population of this little sphere of granite and such. That has ballooned rather high in the last number of decades. And will be reaching unbelievable numbers shortly (in relative terms). ALl these people needing energy and food and the means of cooking and warmth.

Embrace the elephant - the answer I am sure lies there.
 
727LOVER
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:08 pm

Was going to start a new thread...but I can stick this here.

Matt Drudge (the Drudge Report) thinks govt is lying about Hurricane Matthew
https://www.yahoo.com/news/matt-drudge- ... 07365.html

:roll:

EDIT TO ADD:

What a turd !
 
dc10lover
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:14 am

CO2 is just as important as oxygen. We are not going to die. It's all about controlling people and taxiing more of the people's wealth or for that matter poverty.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:05 am

dc10lover wrote:
CO2 is just as important as oxygen. We are not going to die. It's all about controlling people and taxiing more of the people's wealth or for that matter poverty.


You should try spending a day in a room that has 90% co2 and 10% oxygen and come back to us to tell the results.
 
Redd
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:03 am

ContentCreator wrote:
My partner and I are doing our part by choosing not to have children. Imagine the ecological burden each new child will have on the planet.


If you live in Europe you should be making babies, unless you want to be speaking Arabic soon. Europeans are having less children than ever and supposedly it's getting worse.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:38 am

Redd wrote:
ContentCreator wrote:
My partner and I are doing our part by choosing not to have children. Imagine the ecological burden each new child will have on the planet.


If you live in Europe you should be making babies, unless you want to be speaking Arabic soon. Europeans are having less children than ever and supposedly it's getting worse.


Yep. If we want to be serious about tackling overpopulation every country in the world should do their part, not just the western world. And that isn't happening right now. Low birth rates and mass migration from areas with high birth rates will kill European cultures if nothing changes.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:55 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
A332DTW wrote:
The fact we were at 280 ppm at the start of the industrial revolution and now have crossed the point of no return at 400 ppm is damning. That span of time is not even a drop in a bucket compared to the scale of geological time. Our hope with curbing climate change now is really just to mitigate the effects of it. If I understand it correctly, stopping or slowing it down is too late.


That has always been the case. The thought that mankind would somehow bring climate change under control was the height of arrogance to begin with (actually the whole Global Warming movement was more about obtaining money and power than actually doing anything useful).

If the seas rise, move inland. And if the climate does get warmer everywhere, think of all the farmland and resources in Siberia and Northern Canada which become more habitable and usable.


Move inland? Piece of piss, that! Entire country of the Netherlands? Move to Germany. New York? I hope you like mountains! London? Birmingham's OK! Pacific Islands? Errr.... buy a rubber dinghy?
 
ContentCreator
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:40 pm

Redd wrote:
ContentCreator wrote:
My partner and I are doing our part by choosing not to have children. Imagine the ecological burden each new child will have on the planet.


If you live in Europe you should be making babies, unless you want to be speaking Arabic soon. Europeans are having less children than ever and supposedly it's getting worse.


Arabs are bad people and we need to protect white Europe. Got it.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:49 pm

dc10lover wrote:
CO2 is just as important as oxygen. We are not going to die. It's all about controlling people and taxiing more of the people's wealth or for that matter poverty.

CO2 IS important. No one is saying to eliminate CO2 completely. However, everything in excess is dangerous. Breathe in pure oxygen (just O2 and nothing else) and sure enough you may be dead if you keep it up; breathe in pure CO2 and you'll asphyxiate. The problem comes trying to determine when too much CO2 is too much. While Earth had a previous episode where CO2 levels were above 400ppm, humans were not around and it's likely that solar radiation was significantly lower than it is today (we're talking millions, maybe billions of years ago). Life as we know it now didn't exist yet. And the carbon cycle was completely natural: no added factor from breathing or burning fuels.

We're not gonna die, for sure. But the hardships from severe fluctuations in climate linked to excess CO2 could lead to famine, droughts, and wars.
 
photopilot
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:55 pm

PacificBeach88 wrote:
Yes, "life existed" when CO2 levels were higher....but the last time they were this high or even as high as 1,000 ppm, HUMANS DIDN"T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


YZF101 wrote:
The elephant in the room seems to be not he amount of plant food issued into the atmosphere, but the actual population of this little sphere of granite and such. That has ballooned rather high in the last number of decades. And will be reaching unbelievable numbers shortly (in relative terms). ALl these people needing energy and food and the means of cooking and warmth.


Gawd I laugh at the whole hubris of "humans" and their belief that they can control anything on this planet. That humans are permanent and here to stay! LMAO!!!

The earth is about 4.543 billion years old in physical terms (skip the fairy tales of the bible, etc). While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 - 7,000 years old, and industrialization started in earnest only in the 1800s. So we humans have been around about 0.000004% of the earth's existence in time.

Other species/lifeforms have come and gone over time (think dinosaurs) and this particular epoch is the time of humans on this planet. At some point, our time here will also end. Will we all kill ourselves thru war, famine, change in our bio-sphere, or perhaps even some geological or astrological event (comet, asteroid, super nova, etc), who knows? As a species we were smart enough to eventually conquer the great plagues of disease (black death, etc) that at one point self-limited the earth's population increase. But overall we've continued an absurd population growth that no finite physical system can support. Will we make it off this planet before our epoch ends, who knows? But to think that we (humans) can be stewards of this planet, control it, and actually keep it the same for the next epoch or billion years, etc is frankly, pure hubris. At best we might extend out species time by a little bit in our human time scale, but in terms of astrological time scale, a fart has a better chance of making change than anything humans can do.

Do I personally care? Not in the slightest. For many reasons I will be the last of my family tree to occupy space on this planet. No aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews, nieces, children, grandchildren, etc. So as the last one here, I'm going to enjoy my time and really, not give a flying-F about all the caterwauling of the tree-huggers, climate change prophets of doom and gloom, etc. In the time-span of the earth and the time humans will spend here, they're all simply pissing off the windward side of a ship that is already sinking!
 
YZF101
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:50 pm

Something I have always found amusing is the people who 'ooh and ahh' over volcanic eruptions, treks to the rims of these monsters, watching the mighty earth create more "land" as she dumps fresh lava into the oceans (all of these, truly, are spectacular, don't get me wrong here), don't seem to equate the 'dangers to the earth' to include these emissions. All of which are far more deadly to "the human race" than the plant food we are being told to stop emitting and will shortly be taxed to death for daring to use. At times a little sense could be used, but alas we are the only cause - and the only salvation to Mother Earth's destruction (for humans). Until the asteroid smacks us into oblivion.

At times it is kinda sad to not see the black plumes follow our old favourite aircraft as they depart with ear splitting decibles, it is still good to know that progress has increased the efficiency of these engines to not only emit less pollutants, but to gain more efficiency as to not waste the fuels we have. Pollution, efficiency, things that can be done ae being done, with rather great success. To those that would rather us live under rocks and come out to sun ourselves on top of our homes to warm us, well, that wouldn't be evolution - rather a large backwards step instead. Something that the "enlightened" seems to want for those living in the "West".

All this time on earth, I never thought lowest common denominator was the thing to shoot for. Guess I was wrong?
 
dc10lover
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:44 am

I wonder how much in taxes people are paying for this scam. Also volcanic eruptions create more essential CO2 than what humans create.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:41 am

YZF101 wrote:
I'm not looking forward to the lessening of our economic standing by ignoring our on-shore oil supplies, instead focussing on transporting it halfway across the world. And the added costs of paying taxes for a fanciful trendy ideology.

Anthropolgic (did I get that right?) climate change is not quite a fairy tale, but those who had a clue ages ago would have been far better off (and better believed) if they would have pushed the anti-pollution aspect of things rather than getting into some kind of weird tale telling. It is fanciful to believe that us giving some government entity almost $3K a year will somehow change things for the better?

It's almost sad to read a few articles that seem to postulate that the whole ozone issue was bogus - I truly want to believe that removing those CFCs were indeed the fix that was needed.

The elephant in the room seems to be not he amount of plant food issued into the atmosphere, but the actual population of this little sphere of granite and such. That has ballooned rather high in the last number of decades. And will be reaching unbelievable numbers shortly (in relative terms). ALl these people needing energy and food and the means of cooking and warmth.

Embrace the elephant - the answer I am sure lies there.


So you think that if US citizens had a western european lifestyle, polluting much less as a result, it would make no difference ?
 
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pvjin
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:05 pm

dc10lover wrote:
I wonder how much in taxes people are paying for this scam. Also volcanic eruptions create more essential CO2 than what humans create.


Source? Also, have you ever considered that volcanic eruptions don't generate more Co2 than earth's forests can easily capture, and adding human action on top of that destroys the balance and causes warming?
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13704
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:21 pm

ContentCreator wrote:
My partner and I are doing our part by choosing not to have children. Imagine the ecological burden each new child will have on the planet.


Big woopee, so you don't have kids, it'll make no difference due to the exploding populations in Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent. Might as well have kids and enjoy them, by the time the planet is well and truely gone, you'll be dead, your kids will be dead, your grandchildren will be dead and there won't be a single person living that you knew.

I don't care that low lying islands and coastal areas will be submerged, it's going to happen weither we like it or not, I can't change it, not having kids or buying an electric car, putting a wind turbine or solar panels on my roof is going to make any difference at all, I'll still be taxed like crazy for environmental issues, whereas the exploding populations in Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent will continue to explode and it'll only be Western nations that will carry the financial burden.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:40 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
That has always been the case. The thought that mankind would somehow bring climate change under control was the height of arrogance to begin with (actually the whole Global Warming movement was more about obtaining money and power than actually doing anything useful).


You have zero education in climatology and yet you state these things.r


Well, neither do you, and yet you claim:

DocLightning wrote:
Over anthropogenic timescales, we can stop climate change, since the changes occurring over geologic timescales are negligible over a span of a few decades.


There's no proof that we can stop climate change on any time period. Anyone who makes this claim is speculating on the basis of technology that does not exist beyond a conceptual level. Even modeling the direction of climate change is a speculative enterprise as climatologist have consistently over-predicted warming trends versus observation. The observed warming trend is at the absolute low end of the predicted range by the IPCC who has been forced to acknowledge more and more uncertainties and unforeseen reactions that are holding the warming trend down. So if they can't even model the direction of climate change properly, what gives you any confidence it can be controlled?

LAX772LR wrote:
Just like we have to face the fact that our indiscretions are screwing with the climate; we also have to face the fact that humans are not going to *stop* the climate from changing. No educated person can make the claim that we can, and expect to be taken seriously.


Agree 100%.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:23 pm

pvjin wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
I wonder how much in taxes people are paying for this scam. Also volcanic eruptions create more essential CO2 than what humans create.


Source? Also, have you ever considered that volcanic eruptions don't generate more Co2 than earth's forests can easily capture, and adding human action on top of that destroys the balance and causes warming?


You mean, like 1 - 1 = 0, and 1 + 1 - 1 = 1 ?

Very complex.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7173
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:21 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Move inland?

Nah, just call phone number (+31) 800-M-A-K-E-D-Y-K-E. Country code +31 (the Netherlands) has thousands of years experience since their country has been sinking constantly since last ice age 12,000 years ago. Their major airport AMS is today 11 feet below sea level, and sinking.

My country - Denmark - is more fortunate. The southern part is sinking while the northern part is lifting. Should we all move north? Nah, instead 30 years ago we built a new 22 feet high dyke in front of the old 16 feet dyke. Some day we will have to better that. Should we have forgotten how to do that, then we call the above mentioned phone number.

In the past we were less smart. For instance in the years 1362 and 1634 we had bad weather, and several dozen thousand people drowned. Many more would have died in 1362 if they hadn't died from Black Dead a decade earlier.
 
Redd
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:09 am

ContentCreator wrote:
Redd wrote:
ContentCreator wrote:
My partner and I are doing our part by choosing not to have children. Imagine the ecological burden each new child will have on the planet.


If you live in Europe you should be making babies, unless you want to be speaking Arabic soon. Europeans are having less children than ever and supposedly it's getting worse.


Arabs are bad people and we need to protect white Europe. Got it.



Where did I say Arabs are bad people? That's right, I didn't. I didn't even imply that.

Arab's are having MANY more children than native Europeans, that's the only thing clearly implied in my statement.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8717
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:51 pm

dc10lover wrote:
Also volcanic eruptions create more essential CO2 than what humans create.

This is similar to saying that airplane travel is far more dangerous because more people die in a plane crash than they do in a car crash. Apples and oranges.

You need to take in account that Earth is a system of checks and balances. Take out human emissions and this quote is correct. Put in human emissions and this quote is still correct. Put in deforestation and this quote is inaccurate. The biggest carbon sinks are the oceans and forests. Both are able to absorb CO2. However, when trees are knocked down and not replaced elsewhere, the CO2 stored under its roots is released. When livestock come to graze in that deforested area, they emit greenhouse gases (methane). Our need for meat and other byproducts further fuels the cycle. The oceans are still carbon sinks, but there's the concern that over time they may become too acidic. And with more forests being torn down, it puts pressure on them.

So, yes, volcanoes in essence can emit a burst of CO2 when they erupt, but assuming there are no human emissions, it was kept in check by untouched forests, aided by oceans, and not augmented by human activity.
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:26 pm

Oil companies have known about climate change for 45 years from human activity / fossil fuel emissions. Exxon Mobil even has internal papers talking about it from 1981. BP and all the other major oil companies now have climate change and possible carbon taxes built into their longterm financials. If you, an individual, still want to stick your head in the sand, you're just so pig headed, you can't admit you were wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... rning-1968
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1924
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:18 am

Climate change is not caused by humans.
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
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Re: Climate Change is Full Steam Ahead

Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:21 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Climate change is not caused by humans.

You can't pin it on the Jews?

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