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Hillis
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NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:52 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/02/us/po ... v=top-news

If true, could this be the iceberg that sinks the S.S. Trump? If it is true, his base certainly won't care, but Americans who pay their taxes every year and see a guy who is worth a lot of money paying nothing will care.

And it begs the question: did he purposely tank his companies to get out of paying personal taxes. If he did, then he should be in prison for it. If he didn't, then he's not this great businessman that his hard-core supporters say he is. Either way, he looks like a man solely interested in one person-Donald Trump.

I hope it brings his whole house of cards down on top of his head.
 
cpd
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:29 am

No, nothing wrong with him not paying taxes. That's smart.

All of you here should also be paying no taxes. It will be great- what could possibly go wrong? ;)
 
ltbewr
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:51 am

Sadly, the USA's tax laws allow this. His supporters will say good, that is $900+ millions less to tax from so the 'moochers' who don't pay taxes for government benefits they don't want to pay for. This is for sure one reason he doesn't want to release his tax returns. As much as many complain about Hillary Clinton, her and her husband paid on their net income a Federal tax rate of around 33% for 2015.
I do think we need a revision of the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) on individuals to prevent such extreme abuses but also a Corporate AMT to prevent big companies like GE from avoiding payment of some taxes on profits. When people like Trump and corporations like GE get away with not paying taxes, it hurts revenues but also encourages more tax avoidance an abuses from smaller companies and individuals. Problem is that Trump, other rich persons like him and corporations have long bought our politicians to take care of them over real, middle class taxpayers.
 
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777Jet
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:29 pm

He's a smart man not paying taxes; taxes that would have been wasted by the government of the day anyway. If done within the law, good on him. I wish I could get my tax down to zero given how the government wastes it. Maybe he has what it takes to run and fix the world's largest business; the US economy ;)
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ContentCreator
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:19 pm

I'm not a Trump fan but this is not his problem. While its not a good thing I don't blame a person taking advantage of any legal means to reduce their tax payments. We ALL do it- he just has a lot more money in the game. Change the laws.
 
Hillis
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:37 pm

777Jet wrote:
He's a smart man not paying taxes; taxes that would have been wasted by the government of the day anyway. If done within the law, good on him. I wish I could get my tax down to zero given how the government wastes it. Maybe he has what it takes to run and fix the world's largest business; the US economy ;)


No, he isn't smart he's selfish.

Again, it begs th question I mentioned. Did he deliberately trash his holdings so that he personally could benefit, but ruin others in the process? Or is he really not a good businessman.

And, if you live in the U.S. 777Jet, if you don't want to pay any taxes, then you should not get any services that your money goes towards, be it on the local, state or national level. You haul your own trash; you put out the fire at your house; you fix the street you live on; you go without medical benefits when you're injured?

Get it? Yes, taxes are wasted, but they also are the way society can function. It pays for the police, fire, infrastructure, the safety net should you become disabled, and your SS check when you retire.

But that's why Trump cannot be President-he isn't interested in you or me, or the nation. He's interested in one thing, and that's what will personally benefit Donald Trump. He's not smart. He's a leech on society.
 
yonahleung
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:43 pm

As someone from Hong Kong with a very simple tax system this just shows how complicated the US tax system has become which allows so many loopholes to be utilised by the rich and powerful with the poor and the working middle class paying much more than their fair share of tax.

A simple tax system is usually a fairer tax system with less tax breaks and loopholes. I absolutely hate the Hong Kong government and every penny it spends seems to be wasted somehow but I can't say I am unfairly taxed.
 
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seb146
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:28 pm

He lost $900 million, his casino failed, his vodka failed, his airline failed, his steak company failed, his "university" failed but keeps saying he is a good at business.

It also looks like he avoided the Cuban embargo

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/02/us/po ... .html?_r=0

But, let's get back to this tax dodging. Not paying taxes means not paying the military for things they need and not paying for veterans to have health care.
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NoTime
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:49 pm

ContentCreator wrote:
I'm not a Trump fan but this is not his problem. While its not a good thing I don't blame a person taking advantage of any legal means to reduce their tax payments. We ALL do it- he just has a lot more money in the game. Change the laws.


100% accurate.

As long as everything he did was within the tax laws, this is a non-story (well, except among the left and the media, who are already against him... so no loss.)
 
wingman
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:25 pm

You can do things that are 100% and still be considered a scumbag. History is replete with beautiful examples of this and Donald knows it. So do all of his advisors. He says he's a rich, super smart winner. But many people are going to see him for what he is, a scumbag. He's not paying taxes ever and he's conveniently declaring bankruptcy at the most opportune times to game the tax system. In doing so he's putting thousands of people out of work at a time, literally destroying the livelihoods of ordinary families that he does not give a a single thought to, because he's so smart and he's a winner (n his own mind). In my mind and the minds of millions of Americans he is a scumbag, and he will achieve that select status with millions of new Americans once his returns are out. It is going to be an awesome sight to behold Hillary tearing him a new one on this subject.

The icing on the cake will be when Donald goes after Hillary for Bill's infidelities. The dripping acid responses I can conjure up for Hillary will make Donald's gargantuan hairdo explode into flames. Debate 2, it's going to be a winner. Anyone who can look at Donald's performance under pressure for 90 minutes and then vote for him beleiving he is qualified to work under the severest of pressures for 4 straight years is literally insane.
 
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:39 pm

Hillis wrote:
If true, could this be the iceberg that sinks the S.S. Trump?


The rape allegations haven't. The open racism, xenophobia, and misogyny haven't. The fact that he's openly cheated people hasn't. The lack of tax returns hasn't. His open tantrums haven't. The only thing that came close was attacking the family of a fallen soldier for being Muslim. And even that didn't.

So why should this?
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kasimir
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:45 pm

ContentCreator wrote:
I'm not a Trump fan but this is not his problem. While its not a good thing I don't blame a person taking advantage of any legal means to reduce their tax payments. We ALL do it- he just has a lot more money in the game. Change the laws.

Perfectly said, while maybe immoral for some people, everything he did was legal and he followed the laws... If anybody is to be criticized, its the politicians that created these laws and still support them...

Not a Trump fan either, but you must be stupid to not make use of these laws if they are there! Nearly all big US corporations pay very little taxes and use tax loopholes, one of them is also Apple, hiding billions oversea to not pay taxes (or relatively very little). But everybody prefers to attack Trump, since he is the easy target...
 
Hillis
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:13 pm

One other not that i've been reading in more than one story today, and that is that that $916 million loss was probably not his money, but money that others invsted in him. So he threw their money down the toilet, and he skirted away with perhaps up to a billion in tax-free income because of it.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/02/opinions/ ... index.html

If this is true, and the article says it would only be known if he ever opened up his taxes, then he isn't a genious, he is, as has been said over an over, a con man who takes from others to benefit only himself.
 
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:16 pm

NoTime wrote:
ContentCreator wrote:
I'm not a Trump fan but this is not his problem. While its not a good thing I don't blame a person taking advantage of any legal means to reduce their tax payments. We ALL do it- he just has a lot more money in the game. Change the laws.


100% accurate.

As long as everything he did was within the tax laws, this is a non-story (well, except among the left and the media, who are already against him... so no loss.)

The optics are terrible, which in this post fact election probably matter most. Also, Trump has lashed out at low income people that don't pay taxes, which is the height of hypocrisy but also totally standard operating procedure for the Trump campaign and republicans. Lastly, Trump's whole schtick is centered around him being so great at business, when this shows his true colors, that he's a total dumbass who lost $1B in one year alone, and US banks won't touch him with a barge pole. That said it's still not what Trump is hiding by not releasing his tax returns, which is likely far more damaging--I'd guess it would confirm that he's not as wealthy as he wants us to believe since his entire existence is tied to that narrative. All in all it's pretty damning and will likely get some mileage, but probably won't make much of a difference in the long run.
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Pyrex
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:59 pm

DocLightning wrote:

The rape allegations haven't. (...) So why should this?


Or his 26+ trips aboard the private jet of a known peadophile named the "Lolita Express", and that known peadophile's subsequent unexplainably lenient sentencing. Oh wait, no, that wasn't him.

The only thing this puts the spotlight on is one of the most tragic, and hopefully not enduring, legacies of the past 8 years: the complete weaponization of "public service" and the machinery of the state against political enemies, to a level not seen since FDR. Revealing private tax information is a crime, punishable by a jail sentence - the fact that some IRS lackey felt comfortable enough in their complete immunity to do it with no apparent direct personal benefit tells you everything you need to know about just how ingrained and pervasive the takeover of the machinery of state is, to a level even Lula and the PT would be proud.
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Hillis
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:02 pm

Pyrex wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

The rape allegations haven't. (...) So why should this?


Or his 26+ trips aboard the private jet of a known peadophile named the "Lolita Express", and that known peadophile's subsequent unexplainably lenient sentencing. Oh wait, no, that wasn't him.

The only thing this puts the spotlight on is one of the most tragic, and hopefully not enduring, legacies of the past 8 years: the complete weaponization of "public service" and the machinery of the state against political enemies, to a level not seen since FDR. Revealing private tax information is a crime, punishable by a jail sentence - the fact that some IRS lackey felt comfortable enough in their complete immunity to do it with no apparent direct personal benefit tells you everything you need to know about just how ingrained and pervasive the takeover of the machinery of state is, to a level even Lula and the PT would be proud.


However they got it, it's info the American people should have in assessing if someone is fit to be POTUS, and this just adds to the list of things that makes this man insanely unqualified to have such power in their hands.
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:41 pm

777Jet wrote:
He's a smart man not paying taxes; taxes that would have been wasted by the government of the day anyway. If done within the law, good on him. I wish I could get my tax down to zero given how the government wastes it. Maybe he has what it takes to run and fix the world's largest business; the US economy ;)


I've watched the usual basket of deplorable Trump surrogates regurgitate this same talking point. Trump has taken advantage greatly of the broken tax system, so therefore he's a "genius" and can fix it. I wonder if they'd say the same thing about OJ Simpson being the best person to fix the broken prosecutorial and judicial system, because he got away with murder. Talk about logic fail.
 
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Aesma
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:50 pm

ContentCreator wrote:
I'm not a Trump fan but this is not his problem. While its not a good thing I don't blame a person taking advantage of any legal means to reduce their tax payments. We ALL do it- he just has a lot more money in the game. Change the laws.


But it's not smart to present it like he did. He could have said that he uses the system as it is but that if elected he would fix it. But that's not what he said. He just said "I'm smarter that you dumb fucks who pay taxes".
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rfields5421
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:56 pm

NoTime wrote:
ContentCreator wrote:
I'm not a Trump fan but this is not his problem. While its not a good thing I don't blame a person taking advantage of any legal means to reduce their tax payments. We ALL do it- he just has a lot more money in the game. Change the laws.


100% accurate.

As long as everything he did was within the tax laws, this is a non-story (well, except among the left and the media, who are already against him... so no loss.)


As you all well know - I don't like Donald, as a person, as a businessman, as a candidate.

He has the personal ethics of a 15 year old who got thrown out of every rich kid school around his home - Daddy's money wasn't for the schools to put up with his bullying, disrespect and other behavior. His record with his marriages and mistresses makes Bill Clinton look like a paragon of a husband.

He has the business ethics of a dishonest used car salesman. I'm gonna get it fixed. "Trust me. Everything will be fine. Just sign on the dotted line (vote) and I'll make it right afterwards no matter what the contract says."

As a candidate he's done nothing but show his contempt for the voters, his contempt for the men and women in the military, his contempt for the men and women in law enforcement, contempt for those working hard for a living.

However, if he didn't pay taxes - which would definitely explain why he gets audited every year - and it was legal. He has done nothing legally or morally wrong.

But is it NOT a non-story. Fox as leader of the mainstream media failed to report the huge numbers of blue collar solid Republican voters who were disappointed and disapproved of Mitt Romney's tax returns. That Romney paid a lower percentage of his income in tax than they paid. Tens of thousands of formerly solid Republican voters who didn't go to the polls in come key states in 2012. Voters who might have turned the election into a victory.

Those voters couldn't bring themselves to vote for Obama, but by not turning out and voting for Romney, they had a critical impact on the final results.

That could very well be the case here. Got an e-mail exchange with the first person who talked to me about Donald Trump as a good presidential candidate - in May 2015 - today. He asked me if I thought it could be true. I told him that if the tax loss was that big, Yes, it could be worked into a carried forward loss to offset profits for many years. He asked me "Shouldn't Trump have paid at least some taxes?" I told him that no one has a moral or ethical requirement to pay more federal income tax than is due. His response was "I'm gonna have a hard time voting for him if this is true. I won't vote for the b****. I think I'll just stay home this November."

That same conversation has to be going on in tens of thousands of conservative homes today.

Aesma wrote:
ContentCreator wrote:
I'm not a Trump fan but this is not his problem. While its not a good thing I don't blame a person taking advantage of any legal means to reduce their tax payments. We ALL do it- he just has a lot more money in the game. Change the laws.


But it's not smart to present it like he did. He could have said that he uses the system as it is but that if elected he would fix it. But that's not what he said. He just said "I'm smarter that you dumb fucks who pay taxes".


No it is MUCH worse than that for Trump.

Remember he has been saying over and over and over.

We have to reduce the tax burden on people like me. We are the ones paying too much in taxes, and we need to be able to put that money into creating jobs, not paying taxes.

Doesn't Trump's complaints and calls for reducing taxes on the rich like himself sound a bit ___(expletive deleted)________ if he hasn't paid income tax for many of the past 20 years?
Last edited by rfields5421 on Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aesma
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:58 pm

Pyrex wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
The rape allegations haven't. (...) So why should this?


Or his 26+ trips aboard the private jet of a known peadophile named the "Lolita Express", and that known peadophile's subsequent unexplainably lenient sentencing. Oh wait, no, that wasn't him.

The only thing this puts the spotlight on is one of the most tragic, and hopefully not enduring, legacies of the past 8 years: the complete weaponization of "public service" and the machinery of the state against political enemies, to a level not seen since FDR. Revealing private tax information is a crime, punishable by a jail sentence - the fact that some IRS lackey felt comfortable enough in their complete immunity to do it with no apparent direct personal benefit tells you everything you need to know about just how ingrained and pervasive the takeover of the machinery of state is, to a level even Lula and the PT would be proud.


In Norway taxes are a public record, you can check out what your neighbour earns and pays.
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ContentCreator
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:40 pm

PacificBeach88 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
He's a smart man not paying taxes; taxes that would have been wasted by the government of the day anyway. If done within the law, good on him. I wish I could get my tax down to zero given how the government wastes it. Maybe he has what it takes to run and fix the world's largest business; the US economy ;)


I've watched the usual basket of deplorable Trump surrogates regurgitate this same talking point. Trump has taken advantage greatly of the broken tax system, so therefore he's a "genius" and can fix it. I wonder if they'd say the same thing about OJ Simpson being the best person to fix the broken prosecutorial and judicial system, because he got away with murder. Talk about logic fail.


Neither party wants to change the tax system because the vast majority of them benefit from such a broken system. The Democrats as a whole are almost twice as wealthy as their Republican counterparts in the Senate and 30% more wealthy than Republican Congressmen so blaming republicans is just wrong.
 
ContentCreator
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:43 pm

Aesma wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
The rape allegations haven't. (...) So why should this?


Or his 26+ trips aboard the private jet of a known peadophile named the "Lolita Express", and that known peadophile's subsequent unexplainably lenient sentencing. Oh wait, no, that wasn't him.

The only thing this puts the spotlight on is one of the most tragic, and hopefully not enduring, legacies of the past 8 years: the complete weaponization of "public service" and the machinery of the state against political enemies, to a level not seen since FDR. Revealing private tax information is a crime, punishable by a jail sentence - the fact that some IRS lackey felt comfortable enough in their complete immunity to do it with no apparent direct personal benefit tells you everything you need to know about just how ingrained and pervasive the takeover of the machinery of state is, to a level even Lula and the PT would be proud.


In Norway taxes are a public record, you can check out what your neighbour earns and pays.


This is a great illustration of our different sets of values. They both have benefits and drawbacks. Americans value independence much more than the average Scandinavian citizen when it comes to "self" even when it means we might face more hardships.
 
Pyrex
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:46 pm

rfields5421 wrote:

He asked me if I thought it could be true. I told him that if the tax loss was that big, Yes, it could be worked into a carried forward loss to offset profits for many years. He asked me "Shouldn't Trump have paid at least some taxes?"



Man, you must hang out with a lot of morons, if they didn't know you can carry losses forward (pretty self-righteous, too, if they think there is anything wrong with that).

Aesma wrote:
In Norway taxes are a public record, you can check out what your neighbour earns and pays.


Well, you will get looked at sideways too if you put curtains on your windows and your neighbors can't see who you are banging, but thankfully the U.S. is not like that.
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stlgph
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:13 am

Anybody who doesn't do their homework, read their applicable U.S. tax laws and codes and doesn't figure out how to make the system work for them in a legal way is the person who is stupid.

I've been coming out way ahead for years thanks to the glories of my own government. Cheers, Uncle Sam.
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777Jet
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:32 am

Hillis wrote:
777Jet wrote:
He's a smart man not paying taxes; taxes that would have been wasted by the government of the day anyway. If done within the law, good on him. I wish I could get my tax down to zero given how the government wastes it. Maybe he has what it takes to run and fix the world's largest business; the US economy ;)


No, he isn't smart he's selfish.

Again, it begs th question I mentioned. Did he deliberately trash his holdings so that he personally could benefit, but ruin others in the process? Or is he really not a good businessman.

And, if you live in the U.S. 777Jet, if you don't want to pay any taxes, then you should not get any services that your money goes towards, be it on the local, state or national level. You haul your own trash; you put out the fire at your house; you fix the street you live on; you go without medical benefits when you're injured?

Get it? Yes, taxes are wasted, but they also are the way society can function. It pays for the police, fire, infrastructure, the safety net should you become disabled, and your SS check when you retire.

But that's why Trump cannot be President-he isn't interested in you or me, or the nation. He's interested in one thing, and that's what will personally benefit Donald Trump. He's not smart. He's a leech on society.


I lived in the US for close to ten years when I was much younger, but I didn't work there so I didn't pay income tax.

He has created tens of thousands of jobs and employed tens of thousands of people who pay tax. He creates opportunity and economic activity. He creates jobs that give a lot of people who want to work and pay their own way, an opportunity to work and pay their own way. He is not a leech because he offsets his tax with loses or deductions. The law allows that, and in many countries not just the US. I'll tell you who is a leech on society, the people who can work but choose not to. The people who live off of the welfare system, especially the ones live off of welfare system their whole life when McDonalds is still hiring. If Trump shouldn't get access to the essential services because he doesn't pay tax despite creating tens of thousands of tax paying jobs, then you must also believe the folks who can work but choose to live off of welfare also shouldn't get access to those services and take out their own trash, right? I didn't think so.
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:34 am

Aesma wrote:
But it's not smart to present it like he did. He could have said that he uses the system as it is but that if elected he would fix it. But that's not what he said. He just said "I'm smarter that you dumb fucks who pay taxes".


And this is what will stick in the "craw" of many Americans. The many Americans who lost their homes, lost their jobs, had to cash in their 401K savings accounts to stay alive, let their car or home go back to the bank and yet still owe taxes on those assets being lost, or even credit card bills they had to default on, get tax bills because they couldn't pay their bills. To them, the tax code doesn't make sense. Here's a self-described $10 BILLIONAIRE using the tax system to not pay taxes for 2 decades after a set back.

In the USA, unemployment benefits are paid without taking federal and state income taxes out of them, but you still owe them at the end of the year. If you're an "Average Joe" and have to default on your credit card account of say, $5,500, you will be sent a bill by the IRS demanding about $ 1,000 (and if you don't pay it, they will take it from your bank account or garnish your wages). There are many examples of this uneven taxation. For BILLIONAIRES they get to carry forward fake loses like depreciation on real estate, to avoid all income taxes. To an "Average Joe" they don't get s**t. Their unemployment benefits are taxable. Any defaults on debt are taxable. If they lost their job and had no income and had to borrow money from their friends and relatives, they don't get any tax break once they go back to work.

This is why the "Average Joe" finds the system rigged. And yet right wing nut jobs think the Jesus of their movement is Donald Trump? One of the biggest hypocrites the dictionary could every turn out? It's unreal isn't it?
 
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777Jet
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:43 am

DocLightning wrote:
Hillis wrote:
If true, could this be the iceberg that sinks the S.S. Trump?


The rape allegations haven't. The open racism, xenophobia, and misogyny haven't. The fact that he's openly cheated people hasn't. The lack of tax returns hasn't. His open tantrums haven't. The only thing that came close was attacking the family of a fallen soldier for being Muslim. And even that didn't.

So why should this?


Exactly Doc.

Another point;


""There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."" - Oscar Wilde


Despite Hillary winning the first debate, who is most of the talk about? Trump. Trump. Trump.

And the talk is about the same things that people have been talking about him for quite some time; it's not like this tax issue is new news.

It won't damage him any more than any of the other things you correctly point out. All the coverage could even work in his favor.

Trump is probably enjoying all the attention and the longer he holds back on releasing his tax returns, the more that people will talking about it and therefore him instead of Hillary. Most people probably already have their minds made up that he hasn't paid tax so it is not really going to damage him if this keeps going on...

A Billionaire with good accountants that know the system should hardly come as a surprise. Clinton as Sec of State not following protocol, using several private servers, ignoring the rule of law by deleting preserved / subpoenaed information, and then lying about it, should be more surprising and damaging.

We will see in a few weeks.
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:45 am

PacificBeach88 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
He's a smart man not paying taxes; taxes that would have been wasted by the government of the day anyway. If done within the law, good on him. I wish I could get my tax down to zero given how the government wastes it. Maybe he has what it takes to run and fix the world's largest business; the US economy ;)


I've watched the usual basket of deplorable Trump surrogates regurgitate this same talking point.


There you left / liberals go again with the name calling lol.

No wonder why you are not taken seriously and could be considered to be a troll.
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rfields5421
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:51 am

Pyrex wrote:
Man, you must hang out with a lot of morons, if they didn't know you can carry losses forward (pretty self-righteous, too, if they think there is anything wrong with that).


I would be surprised if over half the people in the US understand carrying forward losses on tax returns. Simply because they never get into a situation where it applies.

And yes, unfortunately a lot of the people I know are uneducated about taxes, investments, etc.

You see, I come from a solid blue collar - work for a living with your hands at an hourly wage - conservative background. And a lot of those folks are my relatives. They are also almost 100% Trump supporters.

Thankfully, I got out of the backwoods and poverty, with a good education and service in the US Navy for 20 years.
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PacificBeach88
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:01 am

rfields5421 wrote:
[
And yes, unfortunately a lot of the people I know are uneducated about taxes, investments, etc.

You see, I come from a solid blue collar - work for a living with your hands at an hourly wage - conservative background. And a lot of those folks are my relatives. They are also almost 100% Trump supporters.

Thankfully, I got out of the backwoods and poverty, with a good education and service in the US Navy for 20 years.


And that's the thing...debating if carried back/forward losses is good tax policy is a good debate to have. Do you think the "Average Joe" will ever understand the various losses one can carry back/forward? This is what killed Romney. The "Average Joe" saw that he was only paying 14% in taxes on millions of dollars of income (no social security tax, just cap gains tax) and they were pissed off. They were pissed why Romney should only pay 14% when they were making far, far, less paying in Social Security, Medicare, Federal and state income taxes, and were paying far more as a % as Romeny was. This is why Trump won't release his taxes. He's paid virtually nothing over the past 30 years, and yet he's a billionaire and yet "Average Joe" has had to pay in 20%, 30% or 40% total in Social Security, Medicare, and Federal & State Income taxes. The "Average Joe" gets screwed.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:15 am

DocLightning wrote:
The rape allegations haven't. The open racism, xenophobia, and misogyny haven't. The fact that he's openly cheated people hasn't. The lack of tax returns hasn't. His open tantrums haven't. The only thing that came close was attacking the family of a fallen soldier for being Muslim. And even that didn't.

So why should this?

Agree completely.

Trump has transcended himself into a political concept, to the point where the actual candidate is irrelevant.
It's all about sticking it to traditional methods, "the system," "the establishment," etc.

We saw it every step along the way:
  • Evangelicals are for him, despite proving that he knows nothing about the Bible.
  • Social conservatives are for him, despite him clearly not giving a flying f#ck about social issues of ANY kind.
  • Economic conservatives are for him, despite his abysmal business record that required multiple uses of the bankruptcy code.
  • etc
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DaveFly
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:20 am

Let me debunk the thread that he was just doing what is within the law. Forget about morals; we know he doesn't have any.

The "Empty Box" scam. Trump Tower is on the same street as Bulgari, the luxury jeweler. Trump purchased hundreds of thousands worth of fine jewelry, but instructed the store to send empty boxes from an out of state address, bypassing New York State sales taxes. That's not genius. That's criminal. I hope we'll be hearing more about this. And also, the Trump Corp was fined for this scheme, but he had the Bulgari employees fired, as if they had cooked up the plot.
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PacificBeach88
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:36 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Trump has transcended himself into a political concept, to the point where the actual candidate is irrelevant.
It's all about sticking it to traditional methods, "the system," "the establishment," etc.

We saw it every step along the way:
  • Evangelicals are for him, despite proving that he knows nothing about the Bible.
  • Social conservatives are for him, despite him clearly not giving a flying f#ck about social issues of ANY kind.
  • Economic conservatives are for him, despite his abysmal business record that required multiple uses of the bankruptcy code.
  • etc


Yup. It's impossible to have a dispassionate discussion with Trump supporters that I've run across. I have to embarrass them into silence. Even a jag bag on the airplane seat behind me. I used to vote for Republicans but that party left me. We used to discuss how best to handle fixing things like SO2, and initiating the Republican plan to fix acid rain has now been demonstrated to work. Trying to discuss real problems, is impossible now. The "core" party has now become complete denialists.

Watching Evangelical Trump surrogates support Trump, Gilliani, and Newt Gingrich with 9 marriages between them, astounds me. I always knew they were hypocrites, but watching them be so crass and open with their hate and double standards, is really a new low, IMHO.
 
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:43 am

I bet Trump has unleashed dozens of private investigators and lawyers to call in anyone with any access to these tax records and as anyone with access probably signed a strict non-disclosure/confidentiality agreements. A lot of people are going to be fired, face legal abuses, threats of violence to them or their families, threats of criminal charges with long jail terms. Since they were State of NY and NJ non-resident returns, not Federal, the leaker could face only State charges. Many in the public would call the leaker a whistleblower and treat them with honor, and thankfully had finally opened up the black hole of hidden finances of Trump, but in the end it is still legally wrong and whether it is Trump or you.
 
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:51 am

That $915 million is simply an indication of the size of his horrid business skills at the end of that one year. It had probably built up over a few years and probably continued to GROW after 1995. Given his incompetence I wouldn't be surprised if his total losses exceeded $1 Billion.
 
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:58 am

Trump not paying taxes proves two things. He has accounts and tax attorneys working for him. And that he's not as skilled a business man as he makes himself out to be.
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WarRI1
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:11 am

I am disgusted with stupid people defending this type of behavior by anyone. I will quote Megan Kelly once again "What are we Chumps? We all pay taxes" She was talking about Trump by the way. The trouble is we are Chumps and the politicians know it. They play us against one another while they screw us over.
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EA CO AS
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:29 am

This latest uproar from the Democrats about Trump's 1995 taxes is just political bluster. As reported by the NY Times, Trump reported a 1995 loss of $916M which would allow him to basically pay no taxes for the next 18 years. I heard Bernie railing about how Trump paid no taxes. I also heard many talking heads proclaim how unfair it is for hard working people to struggle to pay their taxes while Trump uses a tax "loophole" to avoid paying taxes.

I would like to ask how many Democrats refused to take advantage of the home mortgage interest deduction "loophole." How many said, "No, I refuse to take that deduction from my income, and I will pay more in taxes than I am legally obligated." I bet every Democrat, Republican and Independent deducted mortgage interest if they had a home mortgage. Mortgage interest deduction is not a tax "loophole. " It is a standard provision of the IRS Tax Code, available to everyone.

Similarly, the capital loss carry forward is not a "loophole." It also is a standard provision of the IRS Tax Code available to everyone. Donald Trump, just like every taxpayer in this country, uses every legal deduction to pay the minimum taxes required by law. Did he lie and cheat to create the $916M loss? I don't know. The IRS is there to make sure taxpayers' returns conform to law. Trump acknowledges multiple audits in progress, but to date he has not been charged with tax evasion.

So Trump, like every taxpayer, uses the IRS tax provisions where appropriate to pay the minimum legal taxes owed. Interestingly, I read tonight, that Bill and Hillary Clinton's 2015 Tax Return shows on pg 17 of their return a Net Long Term Capital Loss of $699, 540. This is the same tax provision used by Trump in 1995, and it means the Clintons get to offset and pay no taxes on $699,540 of future income. Are Bill and Hillary filing an amended return to give up the $699,540 loss carry forward? I don't think so.

.It is hypocrisy for Hillary to say Trump did not pay his fair share of taxes. He conformed to the IRS Tax Code in effect at the time of filing his tax return.

Congress is responsible for tax laws, and both Bernie and Hillary were part of the institution that created the IRS tax laws. Trump was running a business and submitting tax returns using the standard tax provisions passed by Congress. So, to me, it hard to complain about Trump using the standard tax provisions for losses when he used the tax laws created Congress.
The real focus should be on reforming the tax laws to reduce the red tape and mumbo jumbo involved in the code. How many of you prepare your own taxes? If you do, you know it is not easy.

I wish the two major candidates would stop the personal attacks and debate the real issues.
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:08 am

I wonder how Hillary can be blamed for tax policy? Were not the Republicans in control of the Senate during her time in the Senate which was 2001 to 2009. I wonder how a novice Democratic Senator was going to buck a Republican controlled Senate on taxes? We all know the Republicans and Democrats have both had a hand in this fiasco which is tax law. I think it is disingenuous to try and blame Hillary. She served 8 years, people with 40 years have not done a whit about tax reform without screwing us and giving it to the wealthy, We all know Trumps new tax proposals still favor the wealthy probably even more than they do now. Did we not also have a national calamity during her years in the Senate. I think we were a little pre-occupied during her years there. :o :shock: :?
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:56 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Similarly, the capital loss carry forward is not a "loophole." It also is a standard provision of the IRS Tax Code available to everyone. Donald Trump, just like every taxpayer in this country, uses every legal deduction to pay the minimum taxes required by law. Did he lie and cheat to create the $916M loss? I don't know. The IRS is there to make sure taxpayers' returns conform to law. Trump acknowledges multiple audits in progress, but to date he has not been charged with tax evasion.


That's all true, but the optics are terrible any way you slice it. All any of Hillary's surrogates need to say right now is: "It's very likely Donald wasn't paying taxes at the time of and after 9/11. NYPD, FDNY, the FBI, CIA, DHS, military et al are all taxpayer funded - and he wasn't paying a fair share for any of that. As a wealthy New Yorker seeking the highest office in the land, this fact is indefensible"
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:37 am

WarRI1 wrote:
I am disgusted with stupid people defending this type of behavior by anyone.

Well that, and the incredible hypocrisy of it all:

Mexican immigrants (working cash jobs but) not paying income tax = outrage.
Trump (taking capital gains but) not paying income tax = smart.

....hmm, that's consistent. :?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Aesma
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:16 am

Pyrex wrote:
Man, you must hang out with a lot of morons, if they didn't know you can carry losses forward (pretty self-righteous, too, if they think there is anything wrong with that).


If you lose money in a business venture, what does that have to do with paying taxes ?
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Aesma
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:21 am

ContentCreator wrote:
PacificBeach88 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
He's a smart man not paying taxes; taxes that would have been wasted by the government of the day anyway. If done within the law, good on him. I wish I could get my tax down to zero given how the government wastes it. Maybe he has what it takes to run and fix the world's largest business; the US economy ;)


I've watched the usual basket of deplorable Trump surrogates regurgitate this same talking point. Trump has taken advantage greatly of the broken tax system, so therefore he's a "genius" and can fix it. I wonder if they'd say the same thing about OJ Simpson being the best person to fix the broken prosecutorial and judicial system, because he got away with murder. Talk about logic fail.


Neither party wants to change the tax system because the vast majority of them benefit from such a broken system. The Democrats as a whole are almost twice as wealthy as their Republican counterparts in the Senate and 30% more wealthy than Republican Congressmen so blaming republicans is just wrong.


That's a ridiculous argument. Only one party doesn't want to raise taxes, and it's not the Democratic party. Only one party signs pledges to never increase taxes over their dead bodies, and it's not the Democratic party.

Democratic politicians want to increase taxes even if that means they will have to pay more, imagine that. I know, difficult for you.
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dragon-wings
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:36 am

I wonder if he taught how to avoid paying taxes at Trump University? LoL
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pvjin
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:48 am

Tax evasion is the sensible thing to do if you feel you aren't getting anything in return for your tax money.
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:57 am

This "controversy" is moronic.

Nothing remotely outside the law.

Or, perhaps you'd prefer that we enforce laws differently for people you don't like?

There are plenty of reasons to challenge Mr. Trump's qualifications for office, but this ain't one of them. If you don't like what happened, you might suggest change in the tax law (and I think there is a case to be made for not allowing tax loss carry-forwards to be preserved through bankruptcy - but it's the law, now).

And the notion that he purposely trashed a company for tax losses? Ludicrous. The math can never work out.
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777Jet
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:33 am

PacificBeach88 wrote:

Yup. It's impossible to have a dispassionate discussion with Trump supporters that I've run across. I have to embarrass them into silence.


You call those who would vote for Trump names such as "basket of deplorable Trump surrogates" and now claim that "It's impossible to have a dispassionate discussion with Trump supporters that I've run across." Geeeez! I wonder why! The only person you embarrass the way you call people names and carry on is yourself. The silence is them feeling sorry for you and them not wanting to associate with you. It is a shame that the current political environment brings out the worst in people relatively easy nowadays.
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:39 am

EA CO AS wrote:
So Trump, like every taxpayer, uses the IRS tax provisions where appropriate to pay the minimum legal taxes owed

That argument would hold water if a core republican tenet wasn't that poor people are moochers/welfare queens for not paying any federal taxes. Trump himself whined that 50% of the population wasn't paying federal taxes. At least the latter aren't shafting investors, employees, and contractors while doing so.
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Pyrex
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:18 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Similarly, the capital loss carry forward is not a "loophole." It also is a standard provision of the IRS Tax Code available to everyone. Donald Trump, just like every taxpayer in this country, uses every legal deduction to pay the minimum taxes required by law..


I frankly have not indulged in the voyeuristic need to analyze stolen property, but if what he indeed had was net capital loss carry forwards, using that to extrapolate he has not been paying taxes for the last 18 years is patently absurd. Net capital loss carryforwards are notoriously fickle since you cannot use them to offset ordinary income (salary, rent, royalties, etc. - there is a $3,000 / year limitation for individuals, none for corporates, as far as I am aware), you can only use them to offset future realized capital gains.

sccutler wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to challenge Mr. Trump's qualifications for office, but this ain't one of them. If you don't like what happened, you might suggest change in the tax law (and I think there is a case to be made for not allowing tax loss carry-forwards to be preserved through bankruptcy - but it's the law, now).


Tax loss carryforwards are already severely limited through bankruptcy, at the corporate level - Section 382 of the tax code. Not sure what happens at the individual level, but the reason they are limited at the corporate level is to avoid having someone buy an "empty-shell" bankrupt company with nothing but tax loss carryforwards as assets, which doesn't really apply at the individual level (plus, as far as I am aware, Donald Trump never declared individual bankruptcy, so that point is moot).
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Re: NYT: Trump Taxless For 18 Years?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:23 pm

DocLightning wrote:
So why should this?

Because if there's one thing Americans REALLY dislike more than paying taxes, it's someone who weaseled their way out of paying for taxes, especially one that constantly chided others for avoiding taxes.

The story checks out: no tax returns to prove the story false and the campaign stated it was "illegally obtained" which reinforces the perception that this is an authentic document.
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