So after the massive outcry by Muslims and Western voices over several French mayors' attempts to regulate the wearing of full body covering by Muslim women on French beaches, now the shoe is on the other foot. It's very instructive to see the total lack of consistency in the response of both Muslims and Westerners:

A group of Australian young men attending the Malaysian GP decided to strip down to their speedos in celebration of a win. Interestingly, this beach wear choice by western men in a Muslim country resulted not in 'tolerance', nor warnings, nor even just fines, but in arrest and immediate jail. On top of this, outrage on all sides by the local muslim and secular authorities for the 'lack of respect of the local culture and standards.' The irony is poetic. Nor do we hear ANY outrage from Western social justice warriors in defense of the freedom to choose their beach wear. They just go directly to jail.


The men are expected to appear at the Magistrate's Court on Thursday to face charges or for police to apply for an order to extend their detention.
.....

Sepang International Circuit chief Datuk Razlan Razali hit out at the men's behaviour saying it showed a "huge lack of respect" to Malaysians.

"This is stupid behaviour from foreigners who have no sense of cultural sensitivity and respect," he told the New Straits Times.

"They deserve to be locked up, investigated and taken action against."
.....

Aust gov. : "I'm hoping the Malaysians will understand there wasn't any real malice in it. Stupidity, obviously. Malice, no," he said in Canberra.[/


Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/1 ... arrassment

ozglobal wrote:

Nor do we hear ANY outrage from Western social justice warriors in defense of the freedom to choose their beach wear.

Firstly, the Australians were not choosing what to wear at the beach. They were at a race circuit. Some clothing is more appropriate than others depending on the location. I would not choose to wear just Speedos for an interview for a loan at the bank, for example, or pyjamas to attend a theatre performance but would not object if someone else felt it necessary.

Secondly, they chose to wear the Malaysian flag as underwear and however much one might defend freedom of choice, farting or seeping urine into a country's flag is in no way respectful. Hardly in the same league as someone simply choosing to cover their body.

Do I support the arrest? No. Do I think they should be charged? No. But I do find it ironic that one of those arrested is a staffer for Defence Minister Christopher Pyne, a member of a party that constantly drones on about migrants respecting our culture. If we demand that "foreigners" accept our rules, we can hardly complain if in their countries those pesky "foreigner"s expect the same. Surely a case of do as I say, not as I do.

But look on the bright side. Both France and Malaysia are now equally civilised in that they have similar laws dictating what you can and what you can't wear, although it does make a change that it isn't women who are being told what to wear in this instance.

Me, I think that as long as you are not harming anyone else, people should be free to wear what they like, however ridiculous they may look to others, whether that be in France or in Malaysia.

HGL wrote:

ozglobal wrote:

Nor do we hear ANY outrage from Western social justice warriors in defense of the freedom to choose their beach wear.

Firstly, the Australians were not choosing what to wear at the beach. They were at a race circuit. Some clothing is more appropriate than others depending on the location. I would not choose to wear just Speedos for an interview for a loan at the bank, for example, or pyjamas to attend a theatre performance but would not object if someone else felt it necessary.

Secondly, they chose to wear the Malaysian flag as underwear and however much one defend freedom of choice, farting or seeping urine into a country's flag is in no way respectful. Hardly in the same league as someone simply choosing to cover their body.

Do I support the arrest? No. Do I think they should be charged? No. But I do find it ironic that one of those arrested is a staffer for Defence Minister Christopher Pyne, a member of a party that constantly drones on about migrants respecting our culture. If we demand that "foreigners" accept our rules, we can hardly complain if in their countries those pesky "foreigner"s expect the same. Surely a case of do as I say, not as I do.

But look on the bright side. Both France and Malaysia are now equally civilised in that they have similar laws dictating what you can and what you can't wear, although it does make a change that it isn't women who are being told what to wear in this instance.

Me, I think that as long as you are not harming anyone else, people should be free to wear what they like, however ridiculous they may look to others, whether that be in France or in Malaysia.

I agree: I don't support either law on clothing. And to be factual, there is no French state law against burkinis: there are several municipal rules in a few beach side towns. Most in France are against the silly law. It's the double standard that I'm referring to.

ozglobal wrote:

So after the massive outcry by Muslims and Western voices over several French mayors' attempts to regulate the wearing of full body covering by Muslim women on French beaches, now the shoe is on the other foot. It's very instructive to see the total lack of consistency in the response of both Muslims and Westerners:

A group of Australian young men attending the Malaysian GP decided to strip down to their speedos in celebration of a win. Interestingly, this beach wear choice by western men in a Muslim country resulted not in 'tolerance', nor warnings, nor even just fines, but in arrest and immediate jail. On top of this, outrage on all sides by the local muslim and secular authorities for the 'lack of respect of the local culture and standards.' The irony is poetic. Nor do we hear ANY outrage from Western social justice warriors in defense of the freedom to choose their beach wear. They just go directly to jail.


The men are expected to appear at the Magistrate's Court on Thursday to face charges or for police to apply for an order to extend their detention.
.....

Sepang International Circuit chief Datuk Razlan Razali hit out at the men's behaviour saying it showed a "huge lack of respect" to Malaysians.

"This is stupid behaviour from foreigners who have no sense of cultural sensitivity and respect," he told the New Straits Times.

"They deserve to be locked up, investigated and taken action against."
.....

Aust gov. : "I'm hoping the Malaysians will understand there wasn't any real malice in it. Stupidity, obviously. Malice, no," he said in Canberra.[/


Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/1 ... arrassment

They're not at the beach, they're on a race track. The beach is miles away from the track. If they had done it at the beach, they wouldn't have gotten arrested. Plenty of people wearing speedos on the beach or at the pool here in Malaysia, and none of them were ordered to cover up.

And it's not that their singled out - if a Malaysian were to pull the same stunt he will be charged under the same laws too. In any case, I'm pretty certain that they would be deported pretty soon, pretty much like those British girls who went topless up on Mount Kinabalu the year before.

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

ozglobal wrote:

So after the massive outcry by Muslims and Western voices over several French mayors' attempts to regulate the wearing of full body covering by Muslim women on French beaches, now the shoe is on the other foot. It's very instructive to see the total lack of consistency in the response of both Muslims and Westerners:

A group of Australian young men attending the Malaysian GP decided to strip down to their speedos in celebration of a win. Interestingly, this beach wear choice by western men in a Muslim country resulted not in 'tolerance', nor warnings, nor even just fines, but in arrest and immediate jail. On top of this, outrage on all sides by the local muslim and secular authorities for the 'lack of respect of the local culture and standards.' The irony is poetic. Nor do we hear ANY outrage from Western social justice warriors in defense of the freedom to choose their beach wear. They just go directly to jail.


The men are expected to appear at the Magistrate's Court on Thursday to face charges or for police to apply for an order to extend their detention.
.....

Sepang International Circuit chief Datuk Razlan Razali hit out at the men's behaviour saying it showed a "huge lack of respect" to Malaysians.

"This is stupid behaviour from foreigners who have no sense of cultural sensitivity and respect," he told the New Straits Times.

"They deserve to be locked up, investigated and taken action against."
.....

Aust gov. : "I'm hoping the Malaysians will understand there wasn't any real malice in it. Stupidity, obviously. Malice, no," he said in Canberra.[/


Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/1 ... arrassment

They're not at the beach, they're on a race track. The beach is miles away from the track. If they had done it at the beach, they wouldn't have gotten arrested. Plenty of people wearing speedos on the beach or at the pool here in Malaysia, and none of them were ordered to cover up.

And it's not that their singled out - if a Malaysian were to pull the same stunt he will be charged under the same laws too. In any case, I'm pretty certain that they would be deported pretty soon, pretty much like those British girls who went topless up on Mount Kinabalu the year before.

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

Thank you for making my point. I fully agree. Now then you will support full compliance with, of course, the local laws in Europe that forbid the wearing of the burqa in public, being entirely consistent . And you would challenge visitors to comply with and respect those local laws. Right?

ozglobal wrote:

Thank you for making my point. I fully agree. Now then you will support fully, of course local laws in Europe that forbid the burqa, being entirely consistent .

Nice try trying to equate this action to the "burqa" laws in France, but there is no similarity at all between the two. In this case, the law isn't targeting a specific group of people (based on the clothing) & is equally applied to all. In the case of the French local laws, it's clearly targeting a specific group of people with the intent of discriminating upon said group.

Now if you're saying Muslims who are in foreign lands shouldn't demand for Sharia law to be applied to them, then I'd agree. But in the case of your comparison it's not an apple to apple comparison at all.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

ozglobal wrote:

Thank you for making my point. I fully agree. Now then you will support fully, of course local laws in Europe that forbid the burqa, being entirely consistent .

Nice try trying to equate this action to the "burqa" laws in France, but there is no similarity at all between the two. In this case, the law isn't targeting a specific group of people (based on the clothing) & is equally applied to all. In the case of the French local laws, it's clearly targeting a specific group of people with the intent of discriminating upon said group.

Now if you're saying Muslims who are in foreign lands shouldn't demand for Sharia law to be applied to them, then I'd agree. But in the case of your comparison it's not an apple to apple comparison at all.

The laws are against total face coverings and include motorcycle helmets, balaclavas, and any other total face coverings worn in public (I'm not talking about the burkini ). This law applies to everyone and exists in multiple European countries, not only France. Don't like it? Don't have to come. Same as your argument.

There is no burqa law in France. There is a law banning the covering of the face, whatever the means, and whatever the sex, ethnicity, religion... Our culture (and now law) is indeed to show one's face.

Most South East Asian countries take a dim view of both public drunkenness, nudity and disorderly behaviour. Whilst I don't agree with the arrest, it's hardly surprising.

ozglobal wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

ozglobal wrote:

Thank you for making my point. I fully agree. Now then you will support fully, of course local laws in Europe that forbid the burqa, being entirely consistent .

Nice try trying to equate this action to the "burqa" laws in France, but there is no similarity at all between the two. In this case, the law isn't targeting a specific group of people (based on the clothing) & is equally applied to all. In the case of the French local laws, it's clearly targeting a specific group of people with the intent of discriminating upon said group.

Now if you're saying Muslims who are in foreign lands shouldn't demand for Sharia law to be applied to them, then I'd agree. But in the case of your comparison it's not an apple to apple comparison at all.

The laws are against total face coverings and include motorcycle helmets, balaclavas, and any other total face coverings worn in public (I'm not talking about the burkini ). This law applies to everyone and exists in multiple European countries, not only France. Don't like it? Don't have to come. Same as your argument.

I thought you were referring to the burkini law, which is selective discrimination.

With regards to the burka laws however, we're in agreement.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

Oh the irony in somebody from a Muslim country saying that.

777Jet wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

Oh the irony in somebody from a Muslim country saying that.

Exactly, and the whole point of the OP.

ozglobal wrote:

Oh the irony in somebody from a Muslim country saying that.
Exactly, and the whole point of the OP.

Most so-called Muslim countries do indeed accommodate Western ways. As FlyingDisk pointed out, had these Australians been at the beach they would not have been arrested, unlike the women in France who were targeted for wearing beachwear at the beach! I also note that the authorities are considering a charge of insulting Malaysia's national emblem — that carries a maximum six-month jail term.

If you go to places like the UAE Westerners can dress how they please and drink alcohol. The only restriction is that you cover up if you visit a mosque and that you refrain from rutting in public. In contrast, the UAE has advised its citizens not to wear traditional clothing when travelling overseas following the violent assault and arrest of one of its citizens when he attempted to check into a motel in the US.

Even Yemen (before it became a war zone) did permit expatriates to import alcohol for their own consumption.

As I pointed out in my first post, the irony is that the staffer who was arrested, is a man in the employ of a member of parliament of a party that always repeats that foreigners abide by our culture and norms, but who then ignored that advice when travelling overseas himself. Double standards?

In other news, Foreign Minister, Julie Bishop, reported that Australia deals with about 15,000 consular cases a year. That's about 40 on average a day of incidents where Australian's go overseas and get caught up with another country's laws, believing that they can do what they like. That puts six women in a burkini in perspective.

They should thank their lucky stars. If they pulled this stunt in the USA, they'd probably end up getting shot to death by America's finest.......errrrr.....twats in blue.

Cop finally gets busted for murder or cowardice behavior (either / or). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4laISiMfg

Nobody has been jailed in France over clothing. Even a repeat offender, a man who likes to go everywhere naked, has not been jailed. So you can stop the comparisons.

Aesma wrote:

Nobody has been jailed in France over clothing. Even a repeat offender, a man who likes to go everywhere naked, has not been jailed. So you can stop the comparisons.

But I thought the point was about double standards? Whether a person is sent to jail or simply made to pay a fine, laws national or local exist that seek to dictate what can and what can't be worn. And in this case, we have seen people who most-likely believe that "our laws" should be respected have failed to follow that advise when travelling overseas. Double standards, anyone?

At the end of the day it's up to countries and their people to decide what they want. In France most people are ready to lose some tourists over such matters, we'll see what Malaysia decides.

It is true that Westerners, Aussies in particular, quite often do stupid things like this, usually involving alcohol, that are disrespectful to local customs when overseas. They should be punished accordingly. But these are just stupid, childish acts, that pose very little harm. That's pretty much it. It's not like they demand another law (Sharia law for instance) to be implemented in the place that they choose to come to. It's not like they crash planes full of people into buildings. It's not like they bomb the public transport network. It's not like they drive trucks over mass crowds. It's not like they leave devices at crowded marathons, or in other public places, to blow up. It's not like they wear suicide vests under their robe. It's not like they say, your country and culture is scum and despite us choosing to be here - despite you allowing us to be here - we demand you to change your laws to what we want. There are some people that will never respect difference and will do whatever they can to get what they want. My heart bleeds when the folk in the countries that such people are more likely to come from have to deal with a few drunken fools in speedos... not! I'll happily deal with drunken fools behaving stupidly than somebody who poses a threat to my freedom and life any day.

777Jet wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

Oh the irony in somebody from a Muslim country saying that.

I don't see the irony given that

a) Malaysian Muslims have been fairly accommodating towards Western culture when on travel or living overseas. Have you ever noticed that the problem child in those cases are often Arabs? You hardly see a Malaysian Muslim or an Indonesian Muslim causing much fuss.
b) Malaysian Muslims such as myself have often called upon for Muslims to accommodate Western cultures when going there, either as a tourist, or as an immigrant, as long as the culture doesn't clash with one's faith or cause undue harm towards the hosts.

And there are a few cases to prove my point - for example, a Malaysian Muslim couple were jailed in Sweden for disciplining their child. Now, this is fairly common here in Malaysia that kids get spanked for misbehaving, but in Sweden this is a big no-no and so the couple did their time in jail & returned home. At no point were there any hatred directed towards Sweden, no protests & no attacks on Swedish interests by even the most conservative Muslim groups. Another example was the Malaysian defence attache who was caught for indecent assault of a New Zealand woman a few years back. The Malaysian government sent him back to NZ to face the music even though the NZ government had at first allowed him to return back to Malaysia, and have made no request for him to serve his sentence in Malaysia.

So do tell me why is it ironic for a Malaysian Muslim such as myself to ask that your countrymen not act like a bogan & disrespect local laws when my countrymen & I have often managed to respect local laws without a fuss in our travels?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

777Jet wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

Oh the irony in somebody from a Muslim country saying that.

I don't see the irony given that

a) Malaysian Muslims have been fairly accommodating towards Western culture when on travel or living overseas. Have you ever noticed that the problem child in those cases are often Arabs? You hardly see a Malaysian Muslim or an Indonesian Muslim causing much fuss.
b) Malaysian Muslims such as myself have often called upon for Muslims to accommodate Western cultures when going there, either as a tourist, or as an immigrant, as long as the culture doesn't clash with one's faith or cause undue harm towards the hosts.

And there are a few cases to prove my point - for example, a Malaysian Muslim couple were jailed in Sweden for disciplining their child. Now, this is fairly common here in Malaysia that kids get spanked for misbehaving, but in Sweden this is a big no-no and so the couple did their time in jail & returned home. At no point were there any hatred directed towards Sweden, no protests & no attacks on Swedish interests by even the most conservative Muslim groups. Another example was the Malaysian defence attache who was caught for indecent assault of a New Zealand woman a few years back. The Malaysian government sent him back to NZ to face the music even though the NZ government had at first allowed him to return back to Malaysia, and have made no request for him to serve his sentence in Malaysia.

So do tell me why is it ironic for a Malaysian Muslim such as myself to ask that your countrymen not act like a bogan & disrespect local laws when my countrymen & I have often managed to respect local laws without a fuss in our travels?

I acknowledged the stupid behavior Aussies (mostly Aussies) get up to when overseas, but the following comment you made was targeted at Westerners in general:

You said: ""Here's a top tip for Westerners""

I also agree that most of the trouble causing Muslims are from the Arab areas, and that the Malaysian Muslims I have come across are usually better behaved than Arab Muslims.

But... It was you who said ""Here's a top tip for Westerners"" so to be fair in response I discussed the general view of Muslim behavior broadly.

Also, when you say it was at a race track and not at a beach, you state the obvious. But are the party-like post race celebrations at an outdoors racetrack under the hot sun more like a relaxed / party like beach environment, or, more like a conservative venue in which such behavior would 100% not be understandable? Some people are making it sound like these idiots where in a religious venue, in a school, on the streets in down town KL? F1 post-race celebrations, hello?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Malaysian Muslims such as myself have often called upon for Muslims to accommodate Western cultures when going there, either as a tourist, or as an immigrant, as long as the culture doesn't clash with one's faith or cause undue harm towards the hosts.

If you have a problem with the culture of the place that you choose to go to, and that welcomes you, then you shouldn't go there if it does clash with your faith or whatever to the point that you want to bring the problems from the place you decided to leave with you and demand those who welcomed you in to change for you.

777Jet wrote:

I acknowledged the stupid behavior Aussies (mostly Aussies) get up to when overseas, but the following comment you made was targeted at Westerners in general:

You said: ""Here's a top tip for Westerners"

Because Westerners have a history of doing this in Malaysia - last year a group of people from the UK, Canada & the Netherlands, went naked up Mount Kinabalu. Coincidently, a few weeks after that case a minor earthquake hit the area, which the aborigines in Sabah blamed on the actions of those Westerners on their sacred lands.

777Jet wrote:

But are the party-like post race celebrations at an outdoors racetrack under the hot sun more like a relaxed / party like beach environment, or, more like a conservative venue in which such behavior would 100% not be understandable? Some people are making it sound like these idiots where in a religious venue, in a school, on the streets in down town KL? F1 post-race celebrations, hello?

No.

You can party all you like, but it's definitely NOT a beach environment so the same level of modesty applies there as it would on the streets of KL. So keep your speedos in check.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

777Jet wrote:

I acknowledged the stupid behavior Aussies (mostly Aussies) get up to when overseas, but the following comment you made was targeted at Westerners in general:

You said: ""Here's a top tip for Westerners"

Because Westerners have a history of doing this in Malaysia - last year a group of people from the UK, Canada & the Netherlands, went naked up Mount Kinabalu. Coincidently, a few weeks after that case a minor earthquake hit the area, which the aborigines in Sabah blamed on the actions of those Westerners on their sacred lands.

Whilst what the fools from the UK, Canada & the Netherlands did in that case did was very disrespectful and stupid, folks suggesting that it caused the earthquake was even more stupid

When you say "Coincidently", you really don't see a link between the two events, do you???

777Jet wrote:

Whilst what the fools from the UK, Canada & the Netherlands did in that case did was very disrespectful and stupid, folks suggesting that it caused the earthquake was even more stupid

When you say "Coincidently", you really don't see a link between the two events, do you???

No I don't. But that doesn't mean I must disrespect the aborigines & ridicule their beliefs.

ozglobal wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

ozglobal wrote:

So after the massive outcry by Muslims and Western voices over several French mayors' attempts to regulate the wearing of full body covering by Muslim women on French beaches, now the shoe is on the other foot. It's very instructive to see the total lack of consistency in the response of both Muslims and Westerners:

A group of Australian young men attending the Malaysian GP decided to strip down to their speedos in celebration of a win. Interestingly, this beach wear choice by western men in a Muslim country resulted not in 'tolerance', nor warnings, nor even just fines, but in arrest and immediate jail. On top of this, outrage on all sides by the local muslim and secular authorities for the 'lack of respect of the local culture and standards.' The irony is poetic. Nor do we hear ANY outrage from Western social justice warriors in defense of the freedom to choose their beach wear. They just go directly to jail.


The men are expected to appear at the Magistrate's Court on Thursday to face charges or for police to apply for an order to extend their detention.
.....

Sepang International Circuit chief Datuk Razlan Razali hit out at the men's behaviour saying it showed a "huge lack of respect" to Malaysians.

"This is stupid behaviour from foreigners who have no sense of cultural sensitivity and respect," he told the New Straits Times.

"They deserve to be locked up, investigated and taken action against."
.....

Aust gov. : "I'm hoping the Malaysians will understand there wasn't any real malice in it. Stupidity, obviously. Malice, no," he said in Canberra.[/


Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/1 ... arrassment

They're not at the beach, they're on a race track. The beach is miles away from the track. If they had done it at the beach, they wouldn't have gotten arrested. Plenty of people wearing speedos on the beach or at the pool here in Malaysia, and none of them were ordered to cover up.

And it's not that their singled out - if a Malaysian were to pull the same stunt he will be charged under the same laws too. In any case, I'm pretty certain that they would be deported pretty soon, pretty much like those British girls who went topless up on Mount Kinabalu the year before.

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

Thank you for making my point. I fully agree. Now then you will support full compliance with, of course, the local laws in Europe that forbid the wearing of the burqa in public, being entirely consistent . And you would challenge visitors to comply with and respect those local laws. Right?

Which local laws are these? I assume they are Europe wide, from your description.

As for the guys involved in the incident, they are fools. And they'd probably be the first people to shout abuse at someone at the beach wearing similar attire. And the lack of a tan suggests they would only wear them as a joke/stunt.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Because Westerners have a history of doing this in Malaysia - last year a group of people from the UK, Canada & the Netherlands, went naked up Mount Kinabalu. Coincidently, a few weeks after that case a minor earthquake hit the area, which the aborigines in Sabah blamed on the actions of those Westerners on their sacred lands.

You have offered this one example in addition to the speedo wearing Aussies incident. So, in your "Westerners have a history of doing this in Malaysia" claim you have provided two examples.

I can provide far more than two examples of what Muslims, call them Islamic Extremists if you like, have done to people in Western countries over the same time frame.

I'll take a few idiots wearing speedos and going naked over people committing bombings and other acts of terror any day, thanks.

777Jet wrote:

You have offered this one example in addition to the speedo wearing Aussies incident. So, in your "Westerners have a history of doing this in Malaysia" claim you have provided two examples.

I can provide far more than two examples of what Muslims, call them Islamic Extremists if you like, have done to people in Western countries over the same time frame.

I'll take a few idiots wearing speedos and going naked over people committing bombings and other acts of terror any day, thanks.

So if an Arab does something in Western countries then a Westerner can do something in Malaysia even though Malaysians don't think highly of that Arab person? That's incredibly childish.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

777Jet wrote:

You have offered this one example in addition to the speedo wearing Aussies incident. So, in your "Westerners have a history of doing this in Malaysia" claim you have provided two examples.

I can provide far more than two examples of what Muslims, call them Islamic Extremists if you like, have done to people in Western countries over the same time frame.

I'll take a few idiots wearing speedos and going naked over people committing bombings and other acts of terror any day, thanks.

So if an Arab does something in Western countries then a Westerner can do something in Malaysia even though Malaysians don't think highly of that Arab person? That's incredibly childish.

You can take my comments to mean whatever suites your agenda. You always have.

Muslim extremists are a bigger problem globally than a few harmless idiots.

I think it is time to call an end to the multicultural experiment. Everyone has different opinions about such a range of things that no one can possibly accommodate everyones' wishes. When you go to a Muslim country then be aware that wearing speedos at a race track is frowned upon. When you come to a western country don't think that refusing to shake hands or refusing to sit beside a member of the opposite sex on a flight is acceptable. Just live with it and let the majority culture decide the majority of the predominant cultural rules.

777Jet wrote:

Muslim extremists are a bigger problem globally than a few harmless idiots.

And this is related to the issue at hand how?

In any case Malaysia have contributed to the efforts to combat Muslim extremists - https://my.usembassy.gov/country-report ... -malaysia/

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

777Jet wrote:

Muslim extremists are a bigger problem globally than a few harmless idiots.

And this is related to the issue at hand how?

In any case Malaysia have contributed to the efforts to combat Muslim extremists - https://my.usembassy.gov/country-report ... -malaysia/

It's as related as your broad generalization about Westerners despite only providing two examples of Westerner's media worthy bad behavior in Malaysia:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

Yet you only have provided a total of two examples in Malaysia.

Now you say that "Malaysia have contributed to the efforts to combat Muslim extremists" yet look at what is going on in the Southern most provinces of Thailand in which Buddhist Monks get murdered by these people who fall into the following group: "In the three Southernmost border provinces, the vast majority of the local Muslim population is predominantly Malay in origin, which comprise more than 80% of the region's population." from Wiki.

Why is it that almost always, whenever there is a terrorist attack, Muslims are responsible? How many terrorist attacks globally by Muslims between this speedo incident and the nudity on the mountain incident? Perhaps you can answer this question because there comes a time when one must wonder why just one religion is always in the headlines for the wrong reasons, far, far more than any other religion.

You just worry about some nudity and speedo wearing idiots. Get back to me when they put on a suicide belt under their speedos

steveinbc wrote:

I think it is time to call an end to the multicultural experiment. Everyone has different opinions about such a range of things that no one can possibly accommodate everyones' wishes. When you go to a Muslim country then be aware that wearing speedos at a race track is frowned upon. When you come to a western country don't think that refusing to shake hands or refusing to sit beside a member of the opposite sex on a flight is acceptable. Just live with it and let the majority culture decide the majority of the predominant cultural rules.

I sort of agree with your post that everyone should respect the laws of countries they are visiting, however what happens when the majority decide they don't like the minority living in "their" country any longer though? This story is about people visiting a country and not respecting the local customs and laws and you are talking about people living together permanently.

777Jet wrote:

You have offered this one example in addition to the speedo wearing Aussies incident. So, in your "Westerners have a history of doing this in Malaysia" claim you have provided two examples.

I can provide far more than two examples of what Muslims, call them Islamic Extremists if you like, have done to people in Western countries over the same time frame.

I'll take a few idiots wearing speedos and going naked over people committing bombings and other acts of terror any day, thanks.

In fairness if you are going to use everyone who professes to Muslim and commits an unlawful act then he would be able to use examples from all over the world of Westerners not adhering to local customs or laws. Or you would need to limit your cases to Malaysians committing terrorist acts.

cpd wrote:

ozglobal wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

They're not at the beach, they're on a race track. The beach is miles away from the track. If they had done it at the beach, they wouldn't have gotten arrested. Plenty of people wearing speedos on the beach or at the pool here in Malaysia, and none of them were ordered to cover up.

And it's not that their singled out - if a Malaysian were to pull the same stunt he will be charged under the same laws too. In any case, I'm pretty certain that they would be deported pretty soon, pretty much like those British girls who went topless up on Mount Kinabalu the year before.

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

Thank you for making my point. I fully agree. Now then you will support full compliance with, of course, the local laws in Europe that forbid the wearing of the burqa in public, being entirely consistent . And you would challenge visitors to comply with and respect those local laws. Right?

Which local laws are these? I assume they are Europe wide, from your description.

Refusing to show one's face in public is considered a rejection of society and potential security issue in France ,Belgium and now I believe several other EU states. The laws are national, not EU.

It doesn't matter how you cover your face (e.g. motorcycle helmet).

enzo011 wrote:

777Jet wrote:

You have offered this one example in addition to the speedo wearing Aussies incident. So, in your "Westerners have a history of doing this in Malaysia" claim you have provided two examples.

I can provide far more than two examples of what Muslims, call them Islamic Extremists if you like, have done to people in Western countries over the same time frame.

I'll take a few idiots wearing speedos and going naked over people committing bombings and other acts of terror any day, thanks.

In fairness if you are going to use everyone who professes to Muslim and commits an unlawful act then he would be able to use examples from all over the world of Westerners not adhering to local customs or laws. Or you would need to limit your cases to Malaysians committing terrorist acts.

His comment / advice / "top tip" in reply #4 was not limited to Australians, it was specifically aimed broadly at Westerners in general:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

That is why in reply to his "top tip" for "Westerners" (not just Australians), I introduced another broad group: Muslims.

Since TheFlyingDisk broadened his comments to include all Westerners, instead of just discussing the bad behavior of Australians abroad in line with this topic, I don't see the problem in discussing the much more harmful behavior of any Muslims that go abroad. If he wants to escalate from Australians to Westerners in general, I will escalate to Muslims in general and not limit the discussion to Malaysian Muslims.

Given that Australians are some of the worst behaved Western tourists, it would have been better for him to stick to the topic and keep his comments on Australians. Despite the irony, hypocrisy and double standards in his "top tip", I would probably have agreed with him in principle because I can't see how Malaysians would cause anywhere near as much trouble as Australians do when they go abroad. But since he shifted to Westerners in general, the comparison with Muslims in general is fair game...

777Jet wrote:

[

Given that Australians are some of the worst behaved Western tourists, ...

These type of Australian guys are a pain in places like Bali, but do Australians really make it to 'world champion' status in the badly behaved tourist stakes?

On a par with 'red neck' Aussie guys ( a certain slice of the the Australian demographic) would be for me:

- an equal % of red neck Brit tourists to Aussies in Spain, or just about any popular beach desitination
- 60% of all PRC Chinese tourists anywhere, anytime
- Most newly moneyed Arabs anywhere, anytime (including ones that try to spontaneiously create Muslim-only beachs in Western countries: Corsica this summer, for example)
- VERY loud, little-traveled Americans; plus Spring Break American students
- Loud Italians
- ....

ozglobal wrote:

777Jet wrote:

[

Given that Australians are some of the worst behaved Western tourists, ...

These type of Australian guys are a pain in places like Bali, but do Australians really make it to 'world champion' status in the badly behaved tourist stakes?

On a par with 'red neck' Aussie guys ( a certain slice of the the Australian demographic) would be for me:

- an equal % of red neck Brit tourists to Aussies in Spain, or just about any popular beach desitination
- 60% of all PRC Chinese tourists anywhere, anytime
- Most newly moneyed Arabs anywhere, anytime (including ones that try to spontaneiously create Muslim-only beachs in Western countries: Corsica this summer, for example)
- VERY loud, little-traveled Americans; plus Spring Break American students
- Loud Italians
- ....

Many Aussies are quite bad in Thailand too, especially in the beach areas. Thais do like Aussies, but they know Aussies have a reputation for getting drunk and behaving badly. Thailand is one of the few places in which I use my American nationality / passport -(I have dual Australian / US citizenship but I consider myself Aussie as I was born in, currently live in, and have spent 2/3 of my life in Australia)- instead of my Australian passport because from what I hear the Aussies have the worst reputation among Westerners there, again, despite generally liked by the Thais. When I stayed at Kata Beach, Phuket, just two weeks ago I was amazed at the number of Russians. I asked a local who rented us a scooter what the percent of Russians tourists were, I thought 40%. She said 90%! She said the locals don't like the Russians but I from what I saw the Russians were all polite and well behaved. They didn't walk around acting like bogans. I couldn't understand why the locals didn't like the Russians. There was also a local news article that Aussies are the worst for draining money out of the local health system because so many Aussies don't have travel insurance and when they end up in hospital, guess who pays...

As for Americans, they are loud everywhere they go. They are probably the loudest people anywhere, but the Chinese are close. When an American is around you will know about it! The Chinese tend to be loud in large groups, but the Americans are loud even when in a group of 2 or even when they are alone asking somebody else a question - I think they want everybody to hear that lovely, almost perfect American accent!

Those are just my observations.

But, given I said "Australians are some of the worst behaved Western tourists", discussing the Chinese, Arabs, like you mentioned, and me discussing the Russians, strays into another category.

777Jet wrote:

His comment / advice / "top tip" in reply #4 was not limited to Australians, it was specifically aimed broadly at Westerners in general:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too.

That is why in reply to his "top tip" for "Westerners" (not just Australians), I introduced another broad group: Muslims.

Since TheFlyingDisk broadened his comments to include all Westerners, instead of just discussing the bad behavior of Australians abroad in line with this topic, I don't see the problem in discussing the much more harmful behavior of any Muslims that go abroad. If he wants to escalate from Australians to Westerners in general, I will escalate to Muslims in general and not limit the discussion to Malaysian Muslims.

Given that Australians are some of the worst behaved Western tourists, it would have been better for him to stick to the topic and keep his comments on Australians. Despite the irony, hypocrisy and double standards in his "top tip", I would probably have agreed with him in principle because I can't see how Malaysians would cause anywhere near as much trouble as Australians do when they go abroad. But since he shifted to Westerners in general, the comparison with Muslims in general is fair game...

Aren't most of the attacks done by people that are not visitors but actually citizens or residents in their respective countries? I know the 9/11 attackers were from abroad but most of the recent attacks were done by homegrown terrorists. I include Dylan Roof in this as his attack was as much terrorism as every other attack.

We are discussing the behaviour of tourists and you want to discuss terrorist attacks by Muslims because...I am sure you have your reasons. I think you are trying to find a reason for airing your views now, we are discussing behaviour that is not acceptable by tourists from Western countries, in this case they happened to be Australian.

777Jet wrote:

Now you say that "Malaysia have contributed to the efforts to combat Muslim extremists" yet look at what is going on in the Southern most provinces of Thailand in which Buddhist Monks get murdered by these people who fall into the following group: "In the three Southernmost border provinces, the vast majority of the local Muslim population is predominantly Malay in origin, which comprise more than 80% of the region's population." from Wiki.

The insurgency in Southern Thailand is a long standing problem that doesn't really involve Malaysia, even if the region's population is 80% Malay. The Malaysian government neither supported the insurgency nor provide safe haven to those involved. Just because we share the same genetic stock doesn't mean we're cut from the same cloth.

In any case, the Malaysian government has pledged to help Thailand eradicate the problem. http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... o-violence

777Jet wrote:

Why is it that almost always, whenever there is a terrorist attack, Muslims are responsible?

Because if the perpetrator is non-Muslim, it's always classified as something other than a terrorist attack. Like a parking dispute that escalated into a shooting - http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/12/us/mu ... olina.html

Or just a shooting https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... me-church/

Heck, Muslim genocide is happening in Myanmar but the world closes one eye & chose not to act at all. Not even retracting the Nobel Peace Prize of Myanmar's leader who stood silently while Muslim Rohingya were slaughtered. http://time.com/4089276/burma-rohingya- ... cumentary/

777Jet wrote:

Given that Australians are some of the worst behaved Western tourists, it would have been better for him to stick to the topic and keep his comments on Australians. Despite the irony, hypocrisy and double standards in his "top tip", I would probably have agreed with him in principle because I can't see how Malaysians would cause anywhere near as much trouble as Australians do when they go abroad. But since he shifted to Westerners in general, the comparison with Muslims in general is fair game...

I guess you didn't read that the Mount Kinabalu nudists weren't Aussies, but are British, Canadian & Dutch.

There was also another case that same year of another nude selfie at a sacred place, this time in Cambodia. The sisters are American http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ngkor.html

Or, go back 9 years ago and you'll see this case of a Swiss man defacing posters of the King of Thailand in a spate of drunkenness receiving a decade in prison - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... nsult.html

So what are British, Canadian, Dutch, American & Swiss if not Westerners? Just because I gave a tip to Westerners doesn't mean I'm saying ALL Westerners flout the law & have no respect for local customs.

777Jet wrote:

Many Aussies are quite bad in Thailand too, especially in the beach areas. Thais do like Aussies, but they know Aussies have a reputation for getting drunk and behaving badly. Thailand is one of the few places in which I use my American nationality / passport -(I have dual Australian / US citizenship but I consider myself Aussie as I was born in, currently live in, and have spent 2/3 of my life in Australia)- instead of my Australian passport because from what I hear the Aussies have the worst reputation among Westerners there, again, despite generally liked by the Thais. When I stayed at Kata Beach, Phuket, just two weeks ago I was amazed at the number of Russians. I asked a local who rented us a scooter what the percent of Russians tourists were, I thought 40%. She said 90%! She said the locals don't like the Russians but I from what I saw the Russians were all polite and well behaved. They didn't walk around acting like bogans. I couldn't understand why the locals didn't like the Russians. There was also a local news article that Aussies are the worst for draining money out of the local health system because so many Aussies don't have travel insurance and when they end up in hospital, guess who pays...

As for Americans, they are loud everywhere they go. They are probably the loudest people anywhere, but the Chinese are close. When an American is around you will know about it! The Chinese tend to be loud in large groups, but the Americans are loud even when in a group of 2 or even when they are alone asking somebody else a question - I think they want everybody to hear that lovely, almost perfect American accent!

Those are just my observations.

But, given I said "Australians are some of the worst behaved Western tourists", discussing the Chinese, Arabs, like you mentioned, and me discussing the Russians, strays into another category.

My guess is the Thai locals aren't used to the culture of the Russian tourists but they have been exposed to the Aussie culture and therefore find what they know to be acceptable. This is doesn't mean that it is acceptable by any standards, just that they find it comforting in some strange way.

enzo011 wrote:

we are discussing behaviour that is not acceptable by tourists from Western countries, in this case they happened to be Australian.

TheFlyingDisk's statement - ""Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too."" - should apply to all people visiting or even living in a foreign country. I found it ironic that despite a few harmless Aussies being the culprits in this specific incident, he extended his advice to all 'Westerners' which is ironic given that a particular type of people love to go to Western countries, criticize Western culture, push for setting up a caliphate, and at the most extreme commit acts of terror.

777Jet wrote:

enzo011 wrote:

we are discussing behaviour that is not acceptable by tourists from Western countries, in this case they happened to be Australian.

TheFlyingDisk's statement - ""Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too."" - should apply to all people visiting or even living in a foreign country. I found it ironic that despite a few harmless Aussies being the culprits in this specific incident, he extended his advice to all 'Westerners' which is ironic given that a particular type of people love to go to Western countries, criticize Western culture, push for setting up a caliphate, and at the most extreme commit acts of terror.

Here's a tip for you, read his post. He says here is a tip for people visiting other countries. You want to bring in terrorist attacks by Muslims in other countries. By all means I am sure there is a thread for this or you can start one, but this is about tourists and their behaviour in other countries. I am sorry this doesn't fit with your prejudices about Muslims though.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Or, go back 9 years ago and you'll see this case of a Swiss man defacing posters of the King of Thailand in a spate of drunkenness receiving a decade in prison - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... nsult.html

Serves that Swiss idiot right. I was teaching in BKK at that time and remember that incident quite well. Lèse-majesté is one thing that you do not do in Thailand. You do not even use your foot to stop a dropped coin from rolling away. Big no no. Never. Although this is slightly off topic, at the very top of my list of anybody I could meet if I had the chance, in the number one position, is The King of Thailand - Bhumibol Adulyadej. He is a true leader and legend to me. I have the highest respect for him.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

So what are British, Canadian, Dutch, American & Swiss if not Westerners? Just because I gave a tip to Westerners doesn't mean I'm saying ALL Westerners flout the law & have no respect for local customs.

Then clarify next time. When you say Westerners it actually means All Westerners unless you specify otherwise. Like if you say Airbus planes suck, it means you are saying All Airbus planes suck. If that wasn't the case, you would specific which Airbus planes suck. And, BTW, you used "Westerners" long before the incident involving other Western nationalities was being discussed. Only these Aussie fools were being discussed by reply # 4

enzo011 wrote:

777Jet wrote:

enzo011 wrote:

we are discussing behaviour that is not acceptable by tourists from Western countries, in this case they happened to be Australian.

TheFlyingDisk's statement - ""Here's a top tip for Westerners: if you expect other people to respect your culture when visiting your country, extend the same courtesy when you visit other nations too."" - should apply to all people visiting or even living in a foreign country. I found it ironic that despite a few harmless Aussies being the culprits in this specific incident, he extended his advice to all 'Westerners' which is ironic given that a particular type of people love to go to Western countries, criticize Western culture, push for setting up a caliphate, and at the most extreme commit acts of terror.

Here's a tip for you, read his post. He says here is a tip for people visiting other countries. You want to bring in terrorist attacks by Muslims in other countries. By all means I am sure there is a thread for this or you can start one, but this is about tourists and their behaviour in other countries. I am sorry this doesn't fit with your prejudices about Muslims though.

Here is a tip for you; grow a spine. If all Muslim tourists behave within your countries laws and don't challenge local laws / customs where you live then lucky for you. My politically correct piss weak country turns a blind eye to such disgusting behavior out of fear of being called out for discrimination. Screw that. If I went to some of the countries that some of these Muslim tourists in Australia come from and disrespected their locals / laws / or customs to the same extent that a few of the bad ones do here then I would probably be executed. I won't even get started on some of the ones who move here as that is off topic as we are discussing tourists, as you point out. If you think I have prejudices then so be it, but I can't stand hypocrisy and double standards - and when those from a group who are known for displaying the most intolerance and who have the least respect towards others claim to be the victim of a minor act of stupidity that is harmless and was probable done out of stupidity and with no bad intentions at all, then I will call it out.

I say jail them and all other Australians traveling abroad. They're the only other ethnic group of travelers more brash & annoying than Americans, lol......

Seriously though, slap them with a fine and deport them. Jailing them is a bit overboard I think.

Redd wrote:

I say jail them and all other Australians traveling abroad. They're the only other ethnic group of travelers more brash & annoying than Americans, lol......

Seriously though, slap them with a fine and deport them. Jailing them is a bit overboard I think.

Politics.

Their government must want / need something in return

Redd wrote:

I say jail them and all other Australians traveling abroad. They're the only other ethnic group of travelers more brash & annoying than Americans, lol......

Seriously though, slap them with a fine and deport them. Jailing them is a bit overboard I think.

Jail is standard during the investigation. If they are prosecuted & found guilty, time already spent will be deducted from the total sentence.

777Jet wrote:

Politics.

Their government must want / need something in return

Nope. It's the law & applies to everyone, not just Aussies in speedos. Same law applied to those that went topless up the mountain. Although there might be additional charges of desecration of the Malaysian flag in store.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Redd wrote:

I say jail them and all other Australians traveling abroad. They're the only other ethnic group of travelers more brash & annoying than Americans, lol......

Seriously though, slap them with a fine and deport them. Jailing them is a bit overboard I think.

Jail is standard during the investigation. If they are prosecuted & found guilty, time already spent will be deducted from the total sentence.

777Jet wrote:

Politics.

Their government must want / need something in return

Nope. It's the law & applies to everyone, not just Aussies in speedos. Same law applied to those that went topless up the mountain. Although there might be additional charges of desecration of the Malaysian flag in store.

I think a fair sentence would be; fine equivalent to $20,000 AUD each in MYR, and 2 weeks jail time (deducting the time spent so far so just over another week). Anything less would not be discouraging to other idiots. Anything more seems excessive.

As for "desecration of the Malaysian flag", I wonder if you can by swimmers / speedos in Malaysia with the Malaysian flag on them? If so then som nam na to Malaysia. If the speedos were custom made or brought in from abroad then that is a different issue. Anyway, I doubt the Aussies thought that wearing national flag swimwear would be considered disrespectful given that national flag swimwear is the norm in Australia and unless there are specific rules made easily available to tourists in which it advises not to wear national flag swimwear in Malaysia because your private parts come in contact with the flag blah blah blah and you could be jailed. If wearing speedos there with the national flag can be considered "desecration of the Malaysian flag" then I wouldn't expect to see national flag speedos in use on the beach or in a swimming pool either. "desecration of the Malaysian flag" is "desecration of the Malaysian flag" full stop.

777Jet wrote:

As for "desecration of the Malaysian flag", I wonder if you can by swimmers / speedos in Malaysia with the Malaysian flag on them? If so then som nam na to Malaysia.

No, you can't.

777Jet wrote:

Anyway, I doubt the Aussies thought that wearing national flag swimwear would be considered disrespectful given that national flag swimwear is the norm in Australia and unless there are specific rules made easily available to tourists in which it advises not to wear national flag swimwear in Malaysia because your private parts come in contact with the flag blah blah blah and you could be jailed.

Well, it goes back to the main gist of this thread. Just because it's the norm in Australia doesn't mean it's the norm everywhere else.

777Jet wrote:

If wearing speedos there with the national flag can be considered "desecration of the Malaysian flag" then I wouldn't expect to see national flag speedos in use on the beach or in a swimming pool either. "desecration of the Malaysian flag" is "desecration of the Malaysian flag" full stop.

They aren't. Case in point, Malaysian Olympic divers at the Rio Olympics -

In the end, they were charged under a section of the Penal Code which carries a maximum fine of AUD 137/$96 each & pled guilty!

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2 ... ned-rm400/