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Aesma
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The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:13 pm

Tomorrow is the first round of the center and right wing primary in France. This is a national primary. After the runoff next week, the winner will be the official candidate for the "Les Républicains" party (new, ridiculous, name of the party).

That candidate is very likely to finish first or second in the first round of the presidential election next April, alongside Marine Le Pen.

The left (my side) has not much of a candidate at the moment. There will be a primary early next year.

Should I crossover to the right wing primary tomorrow ? No candidate is satisfying to me, however some are worse than others, and a couple are horrible. One of those is former president Nicolas Sarkozy.

My plan is to vote for the candidate that has the best chance of beating Nicolas Sarkozy. My parents also plan to vote like this.

Thoughts ?
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:00 pm

Which candidate's positions and beliefs match the closest with yours?

Go with that one.
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Pihero
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:19 pm

No. The French arte still being idiotics when they think they are the smartest.
In particular, they have initiated the "Not-answering-the-question-asked-by-the-referendum-paper " starting with De Gaulle's constitutional referendum in 1969, b ecause he was too old.
Then the refusal of the European Constitution, because of the "Polish plumber 's" threat to French jobs
Then the presidential election in 2002 when these idiots decided to have a "protest vote " against the prime minister Jospin - the socialist, my dear friend !.
What happened ? the national frontist Jean-Marie LePen came second, thus eliminating Jospin from the second round. The same idiots had to rally behind jacques Chirac, who should really have been their adversary... Chirac was elected with a seismic 80 + % score, thanks to the socialists and, generally the re-united Left ( that iuncludes the socialists, the communists, the trotskyists,the greens...etc...in France ( in all probability Chirac's lifetime success ! )

"The left (my side) has not much of a candidate at the moment. There will be a primary early next year."

And, of course, it has no explanation about the failures of the socialist government of the past four years : Hollande has a rating of 11%, which is probably a world record... and he's going to be THE left 's candidate ?
As the left had spent the past four years vilifying the right - and les Républicains - and as the same left had spent the past four years making a bed as soft as possible for ms Le Pen, you are stuck with your creation. So leave us alone.
You'd better spend your time and efforts in starting an anti- le Pen platform. She and her likes are the enemy...
Don't you think so ?
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:41 pm

Hollande is not a great president but I tend to agree with what he's trying to do, going from old school socialism towards social liberalism. The problem he has that his predecessor didn't (but that Chirac had, which led him to hand the power to Jospin, quite record breaking don't you think ?) is that his own party and specifically the legislators that are supposed to follow his lead are not ready for this, they prefer old school socialism.

Veetwo wrote:
Which candidate's positions and beliefs match the closest with yours?

Go with that one.


Technically none of them since it's the other camp's primary. I will have to pay 2€ and sign a paper saying I share the right's values. Right wingers are saying that people on the left that do this are corrupting the process. That signing this is lying. In truth when those values are laid out I agree with them, they're vague concepts like "freedom", I disagree with the policies, not the same thing.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:05 am

Aesma wrote:
Veetwo wrote:
Which candidate's positions and beliefs match the closest with yours?

Go with that one.


Technically none of them since it's the other camp's primary. I will have to pay 2€ and sign a paper saying I share the right's values. Right wingers are saying that people on the left that do this are corrupting the process. That signing this is lying. In truth when those values are laid out I agree with them, they're vague concepts like "freedom", I disagree with the policies, not the same thing.


Can you explain a bit more about the fee and the signing of a paper to someone ignorant of how things are done in France? Is this an official government oath and tax or something each party does? If you can't pay can you just not vote?

I'm no right-wing conservative here in the USA but I do find things about their platform I can agree with...is there nothing about any candidate on the other side you find palatable at all?
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:29 am

My favorite candidate (who some in her camp are saying is left-wing) polls very low so voting for her is a waste.

Primaries are private things in France, and very new, the first similar one was held in 2011 by the socialists and radicals, the winner being François Hollande. At the time you had to pay 1€ to finance the primary, and also sign a paper saying you were left wing or something like that.

This euro was enough to finance both turns, with a turnout of 2,7 and 2,9 millions people. If you had voted in the first round, the second round was free.

The right wing is reproducing this concept, but you have to pay 2€ for each turn.

To be a candidate in the actual election you don't need a party or to win a primary, you need 500 support votes from "great electors", basically mayors (36000 mayors in France), so there will be between 8 and 16 candidates in April.
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Pihero
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:37 am

Hollande is not a great president but I tend to agree with what he's trying to do, going from old school socialism towards social liberalism.
The guy has had FIVE years to show what he was capable of. He had a great formula :"I, as President....bla Bla...."
The only progress we saw was the number of civil servants... we've seen a totally dysfunctional government with ministers leaving / arguing left-right-center-up and down... Ministers for foreign affairs and Europe were the fracking traitors who didn't even follow the party line for the Maastricht constitution referendum and allied themselves to the communist party (the most vocally strident opponents to the idea of a united Europe...)
That's when I burnt my socialist card... I hate people who claim to be for democracy and can't even abide by the results of the adherents' majority decision on their party's policy.

..."enough to finance both turns"...
He means "rounds"

"Can you explain a bit more about the fee and the signing of a paper to someone ignorant of how things are done in France? Is this an official government oath and tax or something each party does? If you can't pay can you just not vote?"
These so-called primaries are - following the US model, I'd say- a way to eliminate friendly fire during the official election : just one candidate for the party.
It is, of course, just financed by the party itself ( btw, partie in France get some government funding based on their electorate ). The fee, for les Républicains has been set at 2 € per round.
In order to avoid cheats - like someone from another party biasing the vote - every voter has to sign a statement saying he/she totally adheres to the values of the republicans.
You cannot vote without paying the fee.

"To be a candidate in the actual election you don't need a party or to win a primary, you need 500 support votes from "great electors", basically mayors (36000 mayors in France), so there will be between 8 and 16 candidates in April."
I disagree : the terrm "Grands Électeurs " is only for the only people who elect the senators : they are taken amongst the MPs and council people... and they really do "elect" these senators.
To be eligible for a presidential candidature one requires the written sponsorship of at least 500 elected officials of at least 30 departements ( provided less than 50 from one département ) : so it is just a sign that the candidate has a national importance, it eliminates the phony candidates.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:24 am

Aesma wrote:
My favorite candidate (who some in her camp are saying is left-wing) polls very low so voting for her is a waste.

Primaries are private things in France, and very new, the first similar one was held in 2011 by the socialists and radicals, the winner being François Hollande. At the time you had to pay 1€ to finance the primary, and also sign a paper saying you were left wing or something like that.

This euro was enough to finance both turns, with a turnout of 2,7 and 2,9 millions people. If you had voted in the first round, the second round was free.

The right wing is reproducing this concept, but you have to pay 2€ for each turn.

To be a candidate in the actual election you don't need a party or to win a primary, you need 500 support votes from "great electors", basically mayors (36000 mayors in France), so there will be between 8 and 16 candidates in April.


That is really interesting. I had no idea it was done like that. Do most people look at it as a step in the right direction?

When you say private do you mean its not an official election where you go to the courthouse or wherever to cast a vote? Its more like a club election and then the leaders of the club go on to national elections?

How do candidates go about getting the vote from great electors? Is there a different campaign strategy than for getting votes from "regular people"?
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:51 am

Yes it's not official, not part of the constitution, public servants are not called to help run the ballot places, etc.

However it was set up with the help of lawyers and constitutionalists to make it fair and objective, as party elections in the past have been jokes, in most parties (stuffed voting urns, dead people voting, people not members of the party voting, etc.).
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:52 am

Pihero wrote:
Hollande is not a great president but I tend to agree with what he's trying to do, going from old school socialism towards social liberalism.
The guy has had FIVE years to show what he was capable of. He had a great formula :"I, as President....bla Bla...."
The only progress we saw was the number of civil servants... we've seen a totally dysfunctional government with ministers leaving / arguing left-right-center-up and down... Ministers for foreign affairs and Europe were the fracking traitors who didn't even follow the party line for the Maastricht constitution referendum and allied themselves to the communist party (the most vocally strident opponents to the idea of a united Europe...)
That's when I burnt my socialist card... I hate people who claim to be for democracy and can't even abide by the results of the adherents' majority decision on their party's policy.


You should agree with me then that Nicolas Sarkozy shouldn't get a second chance.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:44 am

Aesma wrote:
You should agree with me then that Nicolas Sarkozy shouldn't get a second chance.

Yes, but certainly not to the extent of lying or perjurinjg myself.
Otherwise, I'd be exactly like them,; that is for me unacceptable. We shoulkd uphold ethics and morals in politics : I don't want this country to go the UK or US way.

If Sarkozy is chosen, so be it ... He'd been 50 000 feet above this president anyway.
I hope Juppé wins it : we need a man with a plan and a vision who doesn't fly visual, trying to ada pt his policy to the polls results... (...and look where it took him : the most ridiculed and at the same time hated head of state the Republic has ever known... and if he could keep it inside his trousers, we'd be better off...)
:twocents:
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:52 am

It's times like this when one really wishes that Jacques Chirac could do another term in the Élysée. He is France's last great leader and knows a thing or two about how to crush the Le Pens.

Sarkozy would be a mistake.

Aesma wrote:
"Les Républicains" party (new, ridiculous, name of the party)

True. What was wrong with UMP?

Pihero wrote:
I don't want this country to go the UK or US way.

Agreed.

Pihero wrote:
If Sarkozy is chosen, so be it ... He'd been 50 000 feet above this president anyway.
I hope Juppé wins it : we need a man with a plan and a vision who doesn't fly visual, trying to ada pt his policy to the polls results... (...and look where it took him : the most ridiculed and at the same time hated head of state the Republic has ever known... and if he could keep it inside his trousers, we'd be better off...)
:twocents:

I agree that Juppe is probably the best option. I used to like Jean Francois Copé, but his idea of becoming more more like the UK in dealing with the offshore financial industry and tax dogers (IE doing as little about it as possible) seems crazy.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:45 am

Hollande's effectiveness is lacking for sure, however on matters of integrity, he's still miles ahead of Sarkozy. Sarkozy has done illegal things, including to get elected, how is that ethical ? Sarkozy had no qualm about using police and secret services against political enemies, and messing with judicial matters on top of it. The fact he's still a contender is alarming, and in itself disqualifies the whole party.
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Pihero
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
Hollande's effectiveness is lacking for sure, however on matters of integrity, he's still miles ahead of Sarkozy. Sarkozy has done illegal things, including to get elected, how is that ethical ? Sarkozy had no qualm about using police and secret services against political enemies, and messing with judicial matters on top of it. The fact he's still a contender is alarming, and in itself disqualifies the whole party.

Bullshit on all aspects :
1/- I want an effective president, not a one who wins popular votes between actresses / journalists bedsheets... On that note how could one trust the judgement of someone who changes companions three times in five year's ?... and giçves cushy jobs to the former concubine...( I'd rather prefer he had one wife and 150 adventures. )
- I want someone effective on protecting me and everyone else, not one who diuvises the intelligence groups so much that they became ineffectual. The bastard is on e of the rtesponsible for the success of terrorist attackis on the country.
- I want someone able to protect all the citizens and not promote a leftist tribunal, socialist judges having a "Wall of the c*nts" - mur des cons -which help them point fin gers - and judgements, I presume - on their en emies ( among them, a grieving father of a raped and killed little girl )

2/- If Sarkozy is really the criminal you depict, how come he's still free and able to be a presidential candidate ?
As using police services, I'll just refer you to the assassination of DSK, the best presidential candidate we'd have since....( fill at leisure...)
As messing with judicial matters, this government has been the epitome of political revenge.

BTW, I've voted, after I signed the charta.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:14 pm

zkojq wrote:
It's times like this when one really wishes that Jacques Chirac could do another term in the Élysée. He is France's last great leader and knows a thing or two about how to crush the Le Pens.
Sarkozy would be a mistake..

I agree but it's old times !
Juppé was, if you remember, Chirac's prime minister in 1995. He saw some of the most violent demonstrations against his plan on social security ( aka health care ) and pensions.
He saw these as a problem too soon as the following governments, be they socialist or UMP, slowly implemented his articles and solutions for the pension crisis into French law... It just took 20 years to do so !
That sort of vision is what I'd like to see.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:47 pm

Sarkozy is the one that destroyed all our intelligence services and even now the damage is not repaired yet. All so he could put friends in control. Terrorism of course returned to the country under him.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:55 pm

Also you can argue a lot of the things I said are unproven, but it's a fact that Sarkozy spent much more than is legal in the 2012 election. For other elections that would lead to an immediate invalidation, and condemnation to years of ineligibility for the candidate.

In the US when campaign finance rules are broken it can lead to jail.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:28 pm

Amazing how unproven arguments become facts in a single sentence. :sarcastic:
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:27 pm

Well, Sarkozy is out. You guys can stop arguing now...
;)

He simply had too much baggage.

I rather like Fillon. He is sensible. I definitely could see him as the next president.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:48 pm

Putin is already sabring the champagne I guess, he supports both Fillon and Le Pen.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:52 am

Aesma wrote:
Putin is already sabring the champagne I guess, he supports both Fillon and Le Pen.

As a French citizen, I won't give a damn whether Poutine drinks champagne or vodka ( I suspect the latter ) or when he does it.
What you are doing, Aesma, is exactly why the left has been so un-effective and so un- efficient : too close to opinions of others - that includes opinion polls - and not enough to the real problems of the country.
That, along with reacting to events instead of taking and implementing initiatives, negative voting instead of chosing the right idea, candidate.... vision of the future instead of looking back to the past.
In other words, you forgot what democracy is about...
... and no, democracy isn't just about having a referendum, it's about respecting our institutions.

I voted for Juppé and I'll do it again next Sunday.
... and I won't have any reservation voting for either him or Fillon in the presidential election in six months'time.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:30 pm

Well Fillon's vision for the future is pretty bleak. I guess we might finally have our remake of May 68.

Also I suspect most people don't really care about democracy. For example old retired people vote for us to work longer, never for them to get less money or pay more taxes. Thank you.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:16 pm

The left sabotaged Sarkozy's last term from the very first day... ( criticizing his victory celebration in a great restaurant... :sarcastic: ... ) and for what ?
So that five years later the most ridiculous / pitiful president I've seen in my life could continue the destruction of the country ?

Do tell why Fillon's vision is "pretty bleak" ?

May 1968, indeed... Have you lived it ? If not, you are talking out of something which is not your mouth : You don(t have a clue about how and what May 68 was in France, in Europe and the world.
We were into something - some things - a lot more important than an actress's underwear and how Pépère Flanby rides his scooter at 3 in the morning in the waking - up Paris streets.
We have a lot to do to get our country out of the mess it is in now instead of concentrating onchildish squables.

Sorry I had to take all that off my chest
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:03 pm

Aesma wrote:
Also I suspect most people don't really care about democracy. For example old retired people vote for us to work longer, never for them to get less money or pay more taxes. Thank you.

No ! thank you !!! for stating the bare fact of the socialists' failure : They re-invented the assisted country... nobody is supposed to do anything, the sate will provide, you don't have any duties you don't owe anything to anyone, especially the state and you have only rights : to strike, to demonstrate, to manhandle your company executives, hold them hostages, beat them close to death... and you don't pay taxes...
But they are clever these socialits : the bulk of the taxes comes from indirect ones : VAT and its multiple different rates, home and land ownership.... and for those who do pay taxes, a whopping 20% increase since they came to power in 2012.
France is now the European champion for Tax pressure : 45.7 % of GDP this year, compared to 35% for Germany, and that goes with the corporate taxes, taxes on salary... that are already the highest in Europe, a situation that explains most of the employment deficit in the country.

Yes, I'll take the Hussard's sabre I bought in the flea market some time ago, and use it to pop a bottle of Dom Ruinart ( I think I have a 2004 vintage in my cellar ) when this lot is kicked out next year.

As for people wanting to work more / longer, another bull turd.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:05 pm

Sarkozy (and Fillon) had all the power needed to pass the reforms they wanted, and they did, giving back tax money to billionaires and all that (the same ones that eat at that same restaurant).

Hollande has to compromise with legislators chosen by Martine Aubry. When Sarkozy did the opposite of what he had done before, laws were passed without question. When Hollande tries to do the same, he needs the 49-3, and nobody on the right supports his moderately liberal measures. So who sabotaged whom, exactly ?

I'm not 100% opposed to the economic program of Fillon, but millions of French people sure are, and if he wins and tries to pass them right away, without even voting on them like he says he's going to do, the country will be shut down for months, I'm sure of it.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:10 pm

Aesma wrote:
The left (my side) has not much of a candidate at the moment. There will be a primary early next year.


Greetings from the other side of the pond with some warning:

Not a fun time to be a leftist.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:24 pm

"Hollande has to compromise with legislators chosen by Martine Aubry. When Sarkozy did the opposite of what he had done before, laws were passed without question. When Hollande tries to do the same, he needs the 49-3, and nobody on the right supports his moderately liberal measures. So who sabotaged whom, exactly ?"
1/- Mrs Aubry and Flambin Pépère are, if I'm not mistaken, socialists from the historical Mitterrand's circle.( although he'd never trusted Flambin with a cabinet job - I wonder why, he was a very good judge of characters, wasn't he ? )
Therefore you're just pointing at one of the reasons for the left's dysfunction : too many chiefs .. too many tendencies, so, as you wrote yourself, the sabotage came from inside the socialist party.
And yes, even Sarkozy had a smoother relationship with the parliament.

2/- "moderately liberal measures", you say ? for me that translates into10% less pension and 20% more income taxes... yep ! liberal, indeed !

3/-I'm quite amazed at the way the left thinks nowadays :they introduced character assassination, use of the so-called independent justice system to settle old accounts ( that one of the things I will never forgive this lot .... :gnasher: .... ), spin at a never seen level in this country, vilifying the opposition and then they are surprised that they couldn't get any support from the same opposition :yawn:

I am sure that the next occupant of the Elysée palace - whoever it is - will have the courtesy of walking him out... a classy act he was incapable of doing which showed the country what he was : a petty little fat man of no consequence, with petty gestures.
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Re: The morals of crossover voting (primaries in France)

Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:28 pm

So in the end I voted in both primaries. None of the candidates I voted for made it, although in truth I rather voted against candidates.

Against Nicolas Sarkozy : that worked.
Against Benoît Hamon : that didn't work.

So far I don't plan to vote for any candidate that came out of those primaries, but time will tell, the political landscape is shifting at a fast pace, the right-wing candidate who was campaigning on his honesty is a complete fraud and might not make it, so we shall see.
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