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747400sp
Topic Author
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Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:20 pm

Hello


I recent times, we have seen many car companies, drop installing a V6 engines in their mid size cars. It seem like people who want something smaller than a full size car, have to buy a luxury car if they want a V6. Now the 3 big Japanese bands, have seem to be our saving grace, but I have read that Honda is planning to discontinue the V6 in the next generation Accord for a turbo I-4. This is a major disappointment to me, because was planning to look into buying the next generation Accord as my first V6 car.
Now, with today's new multi-speed transmissions and turbos, I understand why these car companies are downsizing to a 4 banger, but a V6 has great sound, and there is less stress on a V6 acceleration.
So, are the days of affordable V6 powered midsize cars, going away?

PS: I feel Honda should keep the V6 in the Accord, to keep the Accord less Civic or Fit like. Honda do not have a Maxima fighter, so taking the V6 out of the Accord, could send customer who is looking for more performance, to Nissan.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:37 pm

747400sp wrote:
Now, with today's new multi-speed transmissions and turbos, I understand why these car companies are downsizing to a 4 banger, but a V6 has great sound, and there is less stress on a V6 acceleration.
So, are the days of affordable V6 powered midsize cars, going away?.


I expect we will see V6 midsized sedans for a while longer because the automakers often share platforms across multiple vehicles. The Toyota Camry shares the same platform with the Sienna minivan and Highlander SUV. The manufacturers that either dropped or never offered a V6 midsized sedan had no such cross-product platform sharing.

I am surprised to see Honda drop the Accord V6 given that they do share a platform with the Odyssey minivan and various Acura models. However, Honda was bounced all over the place on Accord powertrain options over the years. They offered a hybrid model, cancelled it, then brought it back. They proposed a diesel model then never launched it. So, I'll believe the V6 is gone when I see it.

Personally, I didn't find the recent Accord V6 that exciting to drive. I've owned two Accords in the past and loved them both. I went shopping for a third last year and test drove the 2016 Accord EX-L V6. I found the acceleration off-the-line quite poor. If you really want an affordable Accord V6 in the future, I'd suggest buying used. Accords tend to last forever anyway.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
wingman
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:57 pm

You must've gotten a lemon or you were driving the I-4 by mistake. I drive a 2014 V6 and the thing is a rocket sled. Here's a instrumented test from C&D on the 2017. That's one solid and quick ride for $35K:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... est-review
 
jetwet1
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:18 pm

Also look to the Koreans, Kia has the K900 (stupid name) and Hyundai has the Genesis, both V6's are very nice, though a little rough over 5k revs.

wingman wrote:
You must've gotten a lemon or you were driving the I-4 by mistake. I drive a 2014 V6 and the thing is a rocket sled. Here's a instrumented test from C&D on the 2017. That's one solid and quick ride for $35K:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... est-review


I have not driven the Accord V6, but I did drive a Camry V6, it was a very nice drive, as with the Accord I imagine, plenty of power.
 
Okie
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:43 pm

747400sp wrote:
So, are the days of affordable V6 powered midsize cars, going away?


I just caught this morning on a news article that the Ford Mustang is dropping the V6. The I-4 is going to be the baseline engine.
CAFE standards it appears.
Kind of brings a tear to the eye.

Okie
 
Veetwo
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:21 pm

How do 4 vs 6 cylinder engines compare today with regards to HP, tourqu etc to their counterparts from the 90's and before? I'd imagine the efficiency and power generation of the smaller engines matches if not beats the performance of their bigger, older brothers right?
Airline employee and Crohn's sufferer.
 
747400sp
Topic Author
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:07 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
747400sp wrote:
Now, with today's new multi-speed transmissions and turbos, I understand why these car companies are downsizing to a 4 banger, but a V6 has great sound, and there is less stress on a V6 acceleration.
So, are the days of affordable V6 powered midsize cars, going away?.


I expect we will see V6 midsized sedans for a while longer because the automakers often share platforms across multiple vehicles. The Toyota Camry shares the same platform with the Sienna minivan and Highlander SUV. The manufacturers that either dropped or never offered a V6 midsized sedan had no such cross-product platform sharing.

I am surprised to see Honda drop the Accord V6 given that they do share a platform with the Odyssey minivan and various Acura models. However, Honda was bounced all over the place on Accord powertrain options over the years. They offered a hybrid model, cancelled it, then brought it back. They proposed a diesel model then never launched it. So, I'll believe the V6 is gone when I see it.

Personally, I didn't find the recent Accord V6 that exciting to drive. I've owned two Accords in the past and loved them both. I went shopping for a third last year and test drove the 2016 Accord EX-L V6. I found the acceleration off-the-line quite poor. If you really want an affordable Accord V6 in the future, I'd suggest buying used. Accords tend to last forever anyway.


I have bad news, the next Accord will be built on the current Civic platform. I wish it was built on the platform that the Pilot, Odyssey and Rigdeline is built on, because it would be a great fourth edition to that platform, and would be size to be a Maxima figher.

Here is my source


http://indianautosblog.com/2016/02/new- ... orm-220028
 
Yflyer
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:38 pm

Veetwo wrote:
How do 4 vs 6 cylinder engines compare today with regards to HP, tourqu etc to their counterparts from the 90's and before? I'd imagine the efficiency and power generation of the smaller engines matches if not beats the performance of their bigger, older brothers right?


When I was in high school my dad had a first generation Acura Legend, with a V6 that produced around 160 horsepower if I remember correctly. While it was no sports car, at the time it felt pretty fast for a largeish sedan. I just looked up the specs for a new Accord -- the base 4 cylinder is rated at 185 horsepower. I don't know how it compares in other specs like torque, but you are correct that the 4 cylinder engines of today are equal if not more powerful to the V6s of a couple decades ago.
 
Okie
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:40 pm

Veetwo wrote:
How do 4 vs 6 cylinder engines compare today with regards to HP, tourqu etc to their counterparts from the 90's and before?

Depends exactly how much before the 90's you are talking about that was about the major transition point of a lot of technology and the start of a lot of computer/electronic engine controls.

The 50's through the mid 80's or so the engines provided about all the horsepower that a fuel leak and ignition timing that a dizzy could provide.

I will not go into all the changes that happened but electronic spark control was a absolute major contributor providing the proper timing of the ignition to provide the maximum cylinder pressure at 22.5 ATDC regardless of the engine rpm, engine load and throttle position (engine command) instead of a mechanical guess from a dizzy.

The fuel leak was replaced with a metered fuel leak with the advent of fuel injection which has advanced further to the point of direct cylinder injection and timing on some engines today.

Turbo's work on providing compressed air at the intake valve to the cylinder. Engines start with the assumption of STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure) or 14.7psi at sea level.
If you provide a boost with the turbo to 14.7 psi gauge pressure in the intake plenum then you have double the air and double the fuel and your 200 cu in engine is now 400 cu in.
Now for street able applications and dealing with non performance parts (and take this as generally not specifically) around 8 psi gauge is what the waste gates provide maximum or roughly a 50% increase in cu in or horse power however you roughly wish to look at it.

If you look at pick ups GM took the route of a larger engine with a higher axle ratio (lower number) to get fuel efficiency.
Ford took the route of smaller engines with a turbo and lower axle ration (higher number for mechanical advantage) to provide fuel efficiency.
Now it appears there has been a major problem that has spilled over via Volkswagen for Ford. The use of the turbo under boost conditions basically somewhere shortly off idle when the boost starts to add performance drives the cylinder temperatures way high which produces massive quantities of Nox's when not on the EPA test stand.
Look for Ford to reverse course and use larger engines and decrease use of turbos in the truck line soon.

Okie

Edited to add
So yes engines today make horsepower per cu in that could hardly be dreamed of 30 years ago burning less fuel and polluting less.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:00 am

Downsizing is the name of the game, in a bid to lower consumption and emissions. And the laws of physics or so, that a 4-cylinder force-fed 2.0 turbo producing 200 horses and 300NM of torque, is more efficient than a NA 2.5 V6 delivering the same amount of horses, though far fewer torques.

This size of the pond, the Ford Mondeo (Fusion) can be had with a 1.2 litre, 3-cylinder engine, delivering 125 horses. Hardly a rocket ship, but the turbo gives it just enough grunt to pull it off. Also, this side of the pond Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, KIA et al gave up on anything but 4-bangers long ago in their saloons and hatchbacks. Even if you go premium, you'll have to search among the top of the ranges before a BMW, Audi or Merc will offer more than 4 cylinders.

It's the way the world is moving, and instead of dreaming and clinging on, we've got to move with it. And if you get the same amount of grunt and oomph, why not embrace the lower consumption? At least it's still internal combustion, it seems that not many decades from now. that may no longer be an option in mass produced cars.
Signature. You just read one.
 
Okie
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:35 am

B777LRF wrote:
Downsizing is the name of the game, in a bid to lower consumption and emissions. And the laws of physics or so, that a 4-cylinder force-fed 2.0 turbo producing 200 horses and 300NM of torque, is more efficient than a NA 2.5 V6 delivering the same amount of horses, though far fewer torques.


From the information that I have seen there is some wash over from Volkswagen about using turbo's and producing high NOx's under normal driving conditions that are not indicated under the conditions on the EPA test stand. I have heard that from many a source. I do not know the specifics but it stands to reason with the increased temperature of the flame front in the cylinder will increase NOx.
I do not have any idea where the increased temperature causes the NOx's to exceed the arbitrary regulation limits. The comment from a very good friend I have known for years in that industry was "less turbo more inches" he did not say no turbo. I would not expect to see the EPA loosen NOx limits.

Okie
 
Veetwo
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:55 am

Okie wrote:
Veetwo wrote:
How do 4 vs 6 cylinder engines compare today with regards to HP, tourqu etc to their counterparts from the 90's and before?

Depends exactly how much before the 90's you are talking about that was about the major transition point of a lot of technology and the start of a lot of computer/electronic engine controls.

The 50's through the mid 80's or so the engines provided about all the horsepower that a fuel leak and ignition timing that a dizzy could provide.

I will not go into all the changes that happened but electronic spark control was a absolute major contributor providing the proper timing of the ignition to provide the maximum cylinder pressure at 22.5 ATDC regardless of the engine rpm, engine load and throttle position (engine command) instead of a mechanical guess from a dizzy.

The fuel leak was replaced with a metered fuel leak with the advent of fuel injection which has advanced further to the point of direct cylinder injection and timing on some engines today.

Turbo's work on providing compressed air at the intake valve to the cylinder. Engines start with the assumption of STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure) or 14.7psi at sea level.
If you provide a boost with the turbo to 14.7 psi gauge pressure in the intake plenum then you have double the air and double the fuel and your 200 cu in engine is now 400 cu in.
Now for street able applications and dealing with non performance parts (and take this as generally not specifically) around 8 psi gauge is what the waste gates provide maximum or roughly a 50% increase in cu in or horse power however you roughly wish to look at it.

If you look at pick ups GM took the route of a larger engine with a higher axle ratio (lower number) to get fuel efficiency.
Ford took the route of smaller engines with a turbo and lower axle ration (higher number for mechanical advantage) to provide fuel efficiency.
Now it appears there has been a major problem that has spilled over via Volkswagen for Ford. The use of the turbo under boost conditions basically somewhere shortly off idle when the boost starts to add performance drives the cylinder temperatures way high which produces massive quantities of Nox's when not on the EPA test stand.
Look for Ford to reverse course and use larger engines and decrease use of turbos in the truck line soon.

Okie

Edited to add
So yes engines today make horsepower per cu in that could hardly be dreamed of 30 years ago burning less fuel and polluting less.


Very interesting.
Airline employee and Crohn's sufferer.
 
OMP777X
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:29 am

I hope you've not forgotten about the Ford Taurus. I don't see that going abywhere anytime soon. I just picked up a 2012 SHO which was not only affordable, but has a pretty sweet Ecoboost engine (a 365HP Turbocharged V6). It is super fun to drive and based on what I've read they hold up nicely over time. I'm very happy with it so far.

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
jetwet1
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:19 pm

OMP777X wrote:
I hope you've not forgotten about the Ford Taurus. I don't see that going abywhere anytime soon. I just picked up a 2012 SHO which was not only affordable, but has a pretty sweet Ecoboost engine (a 365HP Turbocharged V6). It is super fun to drive and based on what I've read they hold up nicely over time. I'm very happy with it so far.

Best,

OMP777X



Nice car, that engine is bullet proof, so is the tranny, you can throw over 500hp at it without any issues, there are some pretty cheap upgrades to be had as well once you are tired of the stock performance.

One thing I would look at upgrading no matter what is the brakes, I know a couple of people who have them and that was their major complaint.
 
OMP777X
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:15 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
OMP777X wrote:
I hope you've not forgotten about the Ford Taurus. I don't see that going abywhere anytime soon. I just picked up a 2012 SHO which was not only affordable, but has a pretty sweet Ecoboost engine (a 365HP Turbocharged V6). It is super fun to drive and based on what I've read they hold up nicely over time. I'm very happy with it so far.

Best,

OMP777X



Nice car, that engine is bullet proof, so is the tranny, you can throw over 500hp at it without any issues, there are some pretty cheap upgrades to be had as well once you are tired of the stock performance.

One thing I would look at upgrading no matter what is the brakes, I know a couple of people who have them and that was their major complaint.


I will be doing that ASAP. That was the one thing about the car that I knew would need an upgrade, seeing as mine isn't equipped with the performance package. I'm okay with the brakes as is, but totally understand why people see the need to upgrade. It is a heavy car and while the factory brakes are good, but not great. Brakes like tires are one thing I won't ever skimp on.
"Happy Flighting!"
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:39 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Downsizing is the name of the game, in a bid to lower consumption and emissions. And the laws of physics or so, that a 4-cylinder force-fed 2.0 turbo producing 200 horses and 300NM of torque, is more efficient than a NA 2.5 V6 delivering the same amount of horses, though far fewer torques.

This size of the pond, the Ford Mondeo (Fusion) can be had with a 1.2 litre, 3-cylinder engine, delivering 125 horses. Hardly a rocket ship, but the turbo gives it just enough grunt to pull it off. Also, this side of the pond Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, KIA et al gave up on anything but 4-bangers long ago in their saloons and hatchbacks. Even if you go premium, you'll have to search among the top of the ranges before a BMW, Audi or Merc will offer more than 4 cylinders.

It's the way the world is moving, and instead of dreaming and clinging on, we've got to move with it. And if you get the same amount of grunt and oomph, why not embrace the lower consumption? At least it's still internal combustion, it seems that not many decades from now. that may no longer be an option in mass produced cars.


Some of us prefer the smoother power delivery of a non turbo engine. I say this as someone who owns a tdci mondeo and golf gti.

I recently drove a Ford Fiesta from Hertz rental. It was the non ecoboost variant using the old school 1.25 duratec engine. If you know how to use a gearbox, the duratec is a lot more fun to drive than the more powerful 1.0 ecoboost I bought for a younger brother last year. It felt nimbler through the corners too, despite the larger engine. The duratec reminded me of the old revvy Honda vtec engines of the 90s. Lots of fun!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:21 am

Okie wrote:
I just caught this morning on a news article that the Ford Mustang is dropping the V6. The I-4 is going to be the baseline engine.
CAFE standards it appears.
Kind of brings a tear to the eye.

Okie


Funny I never realised there was a V6 option in the new Mustang, in Europe it's only the 5.0 V8 or the ecoboost I4, it's the same in NZ as well. What they should do it drop in the twin turbo ecoboost 3.5 V6 from the Ford GT, I'd take that over the 5.0 or 5.2 any day.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:29 am

Here in France they won't go away as they never existed.

When I see videos of traffic in the US I always wonder why you need all that power to putter along highways at a slow pace, without any kind of lane discipline.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Redd
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:39 pm

Okie wrote:
747400sp wrote:
So, are the days of affordable V6 powered midsize cars, going away?


I just caught this morning on a news article that the Ford Mustang is dropping the V6. The I-4 is going to be the baseline engine.
CAFE standards it appears.
Kind of brings a tear to the eye.

Okie



I'd say any Mustang without a V8 brings a tear to the eye.
 
wingman
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:08 pm

That blog about the Accord dropping the V6 must be a regional story. I don't see it happening here even if the V6 accounts for less than 20% of model sales. So long as the Camry, Fusion and Hyundais have the 6s they'll stay. I know Mazda is trying to trend-set by dropping the 6s in their Mazda6 and the CX9 but I'm definitely curious to see how they fare overall these days. Some of us just like that smoother power delivery and the ability to use passing lanes with a full load. You can't do that in the Mazdas anymore and that's a deal breaker for me even if I have to admit the designs are gorgeous. Anyhoo, I hope Honda keeps the engine option for many years to come.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:20 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Downsizing is the name of the game, in a bid to lower consumption and emissions. And the laws of physics or so, that a 4-cylinder force-fed 2.0 turbo producing 200 horses and 300NM of torque, is more efficient than a NA 2.5 V6 delivering the same amount of horses, though far fewer torques.

It's the way the world is moving, and instead of dreaming and clinging on, we've got to move with it. And if you get the same amount of grunt and oomph, why not embrace the lower consumption? At least it's still internal combustion, it seems that not many decades from now. that may no longer be an option in mass produced cars.


Because turbos are pain in the rear and drag on your wallet in the long run. Upfront there are not much cheaper their V6 counterparts. Other than the moral obligation to protect environment there is no real financial benefit owning a turbo. Buy a standard I4 or V6.

World is moving because manufacturers are pushing those to achieve their EPA average numbers.
All posts are just opinions.
 
JJJ
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:44 pm

Aesma wrote:
Here in France they won't go away as they never existed.

When I see videos of traffic in the US I always wonder why you need all that power to putter along highways at a slow pace, without any kind of lane discipline.


You're doing a great disservice to your own car heritage.

Iconic cars like the Citroen XM or Renault 25 had v6s on them.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:53 pm

JJJ wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Here in France they won't go away as they never existed.

When I see videos of traffic in the US I always wonder why you need all that power to putter along highways at a slow pace, without any kind of lane discipline.


You're doing a great disservice to your own car heritage.

Iconic cars like the Citroen XM or Renault 25 had v6s on them.


Only govt ministers were forced into buying them, any private citizen who could afford one usually went German.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:08 pm

747400sp wrote:
Hello

So, are the days of affordable V6 powered midsize cars, going away?



In short, yes.

Unfortunately, the car market is changing and we not necessarily have to like the changes. One of the changes, for example, is the disappearance of manual transmissions from everything but compacts. If you try to buy a manual family sedan in Canada now, you're limited to 3 brands. Forget V6 in it and only one brand will offer you a manual tranny with the top trim. Or are you so bold and you wish to have a sport sedan with a manual tranny? You can forget full size and midsize cars. The only options are compact executive cars from BMW and Cadillac.Full size manual pick-up truck? One, expensive option. Manual SUV? Forget it. Affordable truck based SUV? Forget it. The affordable V6 midsize car is next in line. And 10 years from now we will have a similar discussion about cars with internal combustion engines.
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Jetsgo
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:53 pm

I drive a Ford Fusion with the 2.0L Ecoboost and thoroughly enjoy the car except for the 22 MPG average. One benefit of a Turbo 4 over a V6 I haven't seen mentioned yet is power at elevation. HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000. This does not apply to engines with turbos. For example, my Fusion is making all 240 HP at 5,000 elevation, while an Accord V6 is only making 236 HP compared to the advertised 278 HP.
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DfwRevolution
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:06 pm

wingman wrote:
You must've gotten a lemon or you were driving the I-4 by mistake. I drive a 2014 V6 and the thing is a rocket sled. Here's a instrumented test from C&D on the 2017. That's one solid and quick ride for $35K:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... est-review


Ha, okay, tell me what "must've" happened. I test-drove both the I4 and V6 options. The excuse given to me by the sales guy was that the engine controller deliberately softens the acceleration during the break-in period. I'd be willing to entertain that if competing models were also sluggish off the line during test drives, but they weren't. As I said, I've owned two Accords and would have been happy to own a third. I just don't see them performing the way they once did.

747400sp wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
747400sp wrote:
Now, with today's new multi-speed transmissions and turbos, I understand why these car companies are downsizing to a 4 banger, but a V6 has great sound, and there is less stress on a V6 acceleration.
So, are the days of affordable V6 powered midsize cars, going away?.


I expect we will see V6 midsized sedans for a while longer because the automakers often share platforms across multiple vehicles. The Toyota Camry shares the same platform with the Sienna minivan and Highlander SUV. The manufacturers that either dropped or never offered a V6 midsized sedan had no such cross-product platform sharing.


I have bad news, the next Accord will be built on the current Civic platform. I wish it was built on the platform that the Pilot, Odyssey and Rigdeline is built on, because it would be a great fourth edition to that platform, and would be size to be a Maxima figher.

Here is my source

http://indianautosblog.com/2016/02/new- ... orm-220028


Interesting, but I suppose not that surprising. The Civic keeps growing in size and is practically the size of an Accord from not too long ago.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:18 am

JJJ wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Here in France they won't go away as they never existed.

When I see videos of traffic in the US I always wonder why you need all that power to putter along highways at a slow pace, without any kind of lane discipline.


You're doing a great disservice to your own car heritage.

Iconic cars like the Citroen XM or Renault 25 had v6s on them.


I'm not saying French V6s didn't exist, although it wouldn't have been that big a stretch, the thread is about V6 and midsize and affordable. The XM and R25 (and predecessors and successors) were large (for their time) and expensive.

BTW it's quite telling that both the cars you mention, from competing manufacturers, used the same V6 engine, developed in collaboration !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Flighty
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Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:09 am

Most automakers are converging on the I-4 as the solution for MOST automotive needs. Example: Volvo. Their 4 cylinder goes up to 316hp as a pure gas solution. 400hp if you include some hybrid features. You can scale these down to 1.5 liters for smaller cars. The ease of scaling between 150-320hp means that for light vehicles, 4 cyl is really the right answer for most people. Mazda, another great example.

It is simpler if you just have one architecture. Technology is moving pretty fast - it's easier to just keep that one architecture up to date.

I drove a Hyundai Santa Fe Sport last month - 2017 model 4 cylinder SUV. It was powerful enough. 185hp. The modern gearbox made up for a lack of torque. It got excellent mileage. You could stuff a 300hp V6 into that car maybe, but there's no point. It was fast enough like it was. Great chassis. That car is perfectly engineered for normal USA life. V6... no job for it anymore.
 
wingman
Posts: 4019
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:26 pm

I hope you're wrong. I can wrap my head around tricked out 4 pots in a Boxster or a Golf GTI, but a 7 passenger SUV? That's probably fine for toting the baby to Whole Foods for organic diapers, but fully loaded with luggage, gear and 6 people up I-70 or I-80? Tell you what, I'd be pissed blowing $50K on a CX9 or $65K on an XC90 and then having to listen to the powerplant scream in agony as it tries to overtake a group of cyclists.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3250
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:33 am

It's not even so much that when it comes to SUV's, I have a VW Tiguan, standard is 200hp, i've had some work done to it and it now has around 300hp, plenty of power in normal day to day driving, but, try towing the boat with it, it just doesn't have that low down grunt of a V6 or 8, so I am picking up a well used Ford Expedition who's sole job will be to tow the boat and I will end up trading in my Tiguan for either a Chevy SS, Hyundai Genesis or Taurus SHO.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2734
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:54 am

wingman wrote:
Some of us just like that smoother power delivery and the ability to use passing lanes with a full load. You can't do that in the Mazdas anymore and that's a deal breaker for me even if I have to admit the designs are gorgeous.


That's funny. You see, last year we took our brand new Mazda 6, 2.0 165 hp with a manual tranny, on a road trip from Northern to Southern Europe. Me, girlfriend, 2 teenagers and a trunk full of possessions. It sat very comfortably all through Germany at between 160 and 180 km/h, not once refusing to dip even deeper for a spot of overtaking. It did struggle a bit climbing over the alps, but nothing that a downshift from 6th to 5th couldn't handle, whilst never dipping below 140-150 km/h. Yes, my previous 3.0 turbo diesel BMW would have climbed those mountains with much less effort, but the Mazda got the job done just fine.

In short, you're talking [email protected] mate :)
Signature. You just read one.
 
wingman
Posts: 4019
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:33 pm

I'm exaggerating for some comedic effect, but nevertheless, add two bodies, ski gear and another 500 lbs of chassis to that same basic engine (as in a CX9) and I still say you'd be a wee bit peeved hitting the passing lanes up Highway 50 to Tahoe. Again, my point is that I'm not in favor of putting these 4-bangers in 7 passenger SUVs designed for hauling. If you're just driving a large SUV around town with kids and soccer balls that's great. But I like to know that a long, smooth power band is going to be there when I need to get 5000 lbs up the winding mountain roads. My current fantasy car is a Golf R, just so you know I do love me a 4 pot when it's applied to the appropriate chassis and mission.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:50 pm

The new CX9 has 310 lb-ft of torque so it should be no problem. I trust that Mazda knows how to build an engine. Their reputation is as good as anybody's. But the CX5, if you load it up heavily to MGVW, and then hit the mountains, will be strained. That, I find, is where today's 6+ speed transmission saves you. You can maintain 60 mph uphill in 3rd-4th gear, where in an old SUV, you'd be screaming in 2nd gear, then when you hit 3rd, you slow back down. That used to suck.

Anyhow, many people enjoy having more than enough power. And there are cars that will give you that. I remember driving a Jeep 5.9 Limited. What struck me was it had so much grunt by 2000 rpm, you would be accelerating hard even if you shift at 2200, while sounding totally relaxed. The lesser models had to be floored until they shift at 4000 to hustle like that. Most buyers aren't willing to push their car until it makes noises.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5839
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:09 pm

The remarkable smoothness and power from the latest 4-bangers has me accepting them more.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
luckyone
Posts: 3281
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Are affordable V6 powered midsize cars going away?

Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:37 pm

Some perspective is really needed when having this discussion, as is some understanding of how these vehicles are used. Yes, most people readily acknowledge that for individuals who haul or tow with regularity a larger displacement engine is beneficial. By and large most buyers are not these people--and all pickup manufacturers in the States will sell you a large displacement engine if you need it. The reason we're seeing smaller displacement engines in larger cars--especially SUVs and pickups--is that people don't buy them for their "intended" purpose. They're sold on the marketing so manufacturers feel obliged to include buzz words such as "off road" and "towing capacity," but these cars are basically tall station wagons and the minivans of yore, or in many cases a fashion accessory and function as such (personally that drives me nuts, just drive the damn station wagon, but that's a different discussion). Most of these vehicles will never even get a tow ball, and even more will never go past a gravel road. It's also important to recognize improvements in technology, otherwise we would still be insisting on a V8 to develop 150 horsepower. Transmission technology also cannot be overlooked -- we're in an era where the average automatic is five or six speeds, which means less inefficiency. Twenty to thirty years ago it was three and four, and maybe an overdrive. The original minivan (Dodge Caravan) was powered by a 2.2L inline four that wouldn't even make 100bhp when wheezing at its redline, and the larger V6 not even 150bhp, with a four speed automatic, and these were routinely loaded down and set loose on American roads, and people kept buying them. I wouldn't tow anything with a luxury vehicle anyway, as based on my experiences with a boat in the family, you're going to be doused in water, or sweaty and gross anyway after you've trailered it and hauled it out of the water and subsequently done everything that needs to be done with a boat after it comes out of the water. I don't want that in a vehicle that costs north of 50-grand.

wingman wrote:
So long as the Camry, Fusion and Hyundais have the 6s they'll stay

The Fusion went without a V6 for four years after it was redesigned for the 2013 model year. It is being reintroduced for the 2017 facelift, but only in the top spec Sport trim. The price of that trim on a Ford would dissuade me from purchasing such a vehicle.

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