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enilria
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PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:26 pm

Just wow...

If only they put the same effort toward maintaining the planes.

WARNING: Link includes photo of dead goat.

RAWALPINDI: In an effort to seek divine intervention to keep a flight safe and secure, staff of the Pakistan International Airlines sacrificed a black goat for ‘sadqa’ near an ATR-42 aircraft after it was given clearance for take-off from the Benazir Bhutto International Airport on Sunday.

Later the plane left for Multan, making it the first ATR-42 aircraft to be pressed into service since the start of shakedown tests on all such aircraft in the wake of an air crash near Havelian on Dec 7.


http://www.dawn.com/news/1303222/pia-on ... d-a-prayer
 
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Finn350
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:35 pm

Well, conceptually that is the same as blessing an aircraft under Christianity...

St. Mary Catholic Church of Champaign County will sponsor a Blessing of the Aircrafts tonight at Grimes Field, 1636 N. Main St., Urbana.

The 5 p.m. ceremony will mark the feast day of St. Joseph of Cupertino, a 17th-century Italian priest considered the patron saint of aviation. He is said to have levitated and floated through the air while praying and saying Mass.

Refreshments will be served at 4 p.m., and a bagpipe prelude will begin at 4:30.

The Rev. Larry Gearhart will confer blessings on pilots, aircraft and the airfield. Planes will then depart at 90-second intervals.



http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... rbana.html
Last edited by Finn350 on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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mercure1
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:36 pm

I don't see issue.

Some cultures perform rituals with water cannon salutes, blessings by religious officials, breaking bottle on plane/ship, etc.

I recall Turkish Airlines few years back sacrificed a camel on the ramp and donated all the meat to employee families to bless the staff at Turkish Technic hangar.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:38 pm

I wonder if they have a SOP incl. checklist for sacrificing a goat... or whatsoever...

R.I.P. goat...
 
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cougar15
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:40 pm

Finn350 wrote:
Well, conceptually that is the same as blessing an aircraft under Christianity...

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... rbana.html


Well sayed, total clickbait thread, yet I cant help myself! Is the old Rodeo on your side of the pond fair to the animals involved? Whats the point of posting this, is really worth a discussion as a Civ Av Topic? Royal Nepal have been doing it for years. And guess where your next BigMac comes from......
This is an international forum, different cultures - although we mays not agree with them - should be respected. So again, the point of posting this is....??
 
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scbriml
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:53 pm

I guess if that flight made it safely, then the goat sacrifice must have worked! :sarcastic:
 
ahj2000
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Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:11 pm

The point is it is interesting to those who don't see or hear this stuff often. Here, PETA would be thrown into a media frenzy!
However, there's nothing wrong with it. No different than Christian or Jewish blessings really...
 
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N14AZ
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:41 pm

cougar15 wrote:
So again, the point of posting this is....??

Oh, there are MAA-ny reasons.... :')))))))))
 
Jetty
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Re:

Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:59 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
However, there's nothing wrong with it. No different than Christian or Jewish blessings really...

For the goat there is a big difference.
 
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Seabear
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:08 pm

Cattle, chickens, hogs, turkeys, fish...are "sacrificed" every day by the millions. How is this any different, as long as the animal was humanely dispatched and the meat is not wasted?

Move along, nothing to see here....
 
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scbriml
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:14 pm

Seabear wrote:
How is this any different, as long as the animal was humanely dispatched and the meat is not wasted?


Do you think a live animal having its throat cut while being held down by three men is humane? :scratchchin:
Image
 
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Seabear
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
Seabear wrote:
How is this any different, as long as the animal was humanely dispatched and the meat is not wasted?


Do you think a live animal having its throat cut while being held down by three men is humane? :scratchchin:
Image

Have you ever spent time in an industrial scale slaughterhouse? You'll never look at your Big Mac the same way again.
 
tonystan
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:34 pm

Ah sure Aer Lingus used to get its fleet "blessed" every Christmas Day while the fleet was on the ground!

Mad superstitious nonsense in my mind but sure that's just my opinion.
 
Luftymatt
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:45 pm

Finn350 wrote:
Well, conceptually that is the same as blessing an aircraft under Christianity...

St. Mary Catholic Church of Champaign County will sponsor a Blessing of the Aircrafts tonight at Grimes Field, 1636 N. Main St., Urbana.

The 5 p.m. ceremony will mark the feast day of St. Joseph of Cupertino, a 17th-century Italian priest considered the patron saint of aviation. He is said to have levitated and floated through the air while praying and saying Mass.

Refreshments will be served at 4 p.m., and a bagpipe prelude will begin at 4:30.

The Rev. Larry Gearhart will confer blessings on pilots, aircraft and the airfield. Planes will then depart at 90-second intervals.



http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... rbana.html

Erm no, nothing like it.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:50 pm

"Wait - we can do this? I mean, a goat would be way cheaper than revising our safety procedures..."

Vice President, Allegiant M&E
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:10 pm

cougar15 wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
Well, conceptually that is the same as blessing an aircraft under Christianity...

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... rbana.html


Well sayed, total clickbait thread, yet I cant help myself! Is the old Rodeo on your side of the pond fair to the animals involved? Whats the point of posting this, is really worth a discussion as a Civ Av Topic? Royal Nepal have been doing it for years. And guess where your next BigMac comes from......
This is an international forum, different cultures - although we mays not agree with them - should be respected. So again, the point of posting this is....??


The important part of the story was this:

"According to a spokesman for the national flag carrier, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) had decided to ground the ATR-42 fleet until all its aircraft had been subjected to the shakedown tests and cleared for flight operations."

Science, not superstition, should be respected.

The work of the CAA should indeed be respected. The idea that sacrificing a goat (or any other animal) can have anything to do with airline safety is absurd. So is the blessing of fleets (aircraft or watercraft). Please remember that in some cultures human sacrifices were once the norm. Appeasing the Gods is rather out of date.
 
Scinfaxi
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:16 pm

If they think sacrificing a goat aids maintenance and safety checks then they should probably rethink their strategy :)

Edit: above poster has said pretty much what I wanted to say.
 
nikeherc
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:40 pm

Sure as hell not safe for the goat.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:52 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
Well, conceptually that is the same as blessing an aircraft under Christianity...

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... rbana.html


Well sayed, total clickbait thread, yet I cant help myself! Is the old Rodeo on your side of the pond fair to the animals involved? Whats the point of posting this, is really worth a discussion as a Civ Av Topic? Royal Nepal have been doing it for years. And guess where your next BigMac comes from......
This is an international forum, different cultures - although we mays not agree with them - should be respected. So again, the point of posting this is....??


The important part of the story was this:

"According to a spokesman for the national flag carrier, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) had decided to ground the ATR-42 fleet until all its aircraft had been subjected to the shakedown tests and cleared for flight operations."

Science, not superstition, should be respected.

The work of the CAA should indeed be respected. The idea that sacrificing a goat (or any other animal) can have anything to do with airline safety is absurd. So is the blessing of fleets (aircraft or watercraft). Please remember that in some cultures human sacrifices were once the norm. Appeasing the Gods is rather out of date.


Truly absurd.
 
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enilria
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:10 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
"Wait - we can do this? I mean, a goat would be way cheaper than revising our safety procedures..."

Vice President, Allegiant M&E

I figured that joke would be forthcoming.

mercure1 wrote:
Some cultures perform rituals with water cannon salutes, blessings by religious officials, breaking bottle on plane/ship, etc.

Do airlines break bottles on airplane noses any more? I guess in the case of bottles and animals, I don't like the idea of all this solid debris being near aircraft engines. Water washes away.
 
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scbriml
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:17 pm

Seabear wrote:
Have you ever spent time in an industrial scale slaughterhouse? You'll never look at your Big Mac the same way again.


I've butchered my own animals. I'm not in the slightest bit bothered about it, but there's no way what happened at PIA is humane. Either way, I wouldn't eat a Big Mac if you paid me.
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:52 pm

Sadaqah or Sadaka (Arabic: صدقة‎‎, IPA: [sˤɑdæqɐ], [n A] "charity", "benevolence", plural ṣadaqāt صدقات) in the modern context has come to signify "voluntary charity". According to Qur'an, the word means voluntary offering, whose amount is at the will of the "benefactor".

The above explains the word Sadaqat or in it's simple meaning "An offering". Being a Christian from Pakistan I think I understood Sadaqat to also now include goat sacrifices which would normally be the practise at Eid-ul-Azha which is when they are sacrificed for the forgiveness of sins.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:54 am

scbriml wrote:
Seabear wrote:
Have you ever spent time in an industrial scale slaughterhouse? You'll never look at your Big Mac the same way again.


I've butchered my own animals. I'm not in the slightest bit bothered about it, but there's no way what happened at PIA is humane. Either way, I wouldn't eat a Big Mac if you paid me.


I have dibs on your's. Thanks.
 
peterj324
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:17 am

I would pray for the safety of the plane too if I knew their grand safety plan was to sacrifice a goat.

In all seriousness though I don't have a problem with it as long as the goat is just for extra "protection" and they follow proper plane maintenance and safety procedures.
 
beechnut
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:24 am

tonystan wrote:
Ah sure Aer Lingus used to get its fleet "blessed" every Christmas Day while the fleet was on the ground!

Mad superstitious nonsense in my mind but sure that's just my opinion.


My Beech Sundowner was blessed by a Catholic priest who is also a monk. Hasn't crashed yet :D

It certainly can't do any harm... and why take chances when there's only one fan to keep the pilot cool? Pascal's wager and all that...

Beech
 
Byrdluvs747
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:32 am

scbriml wrote:

I've butchered my own animals. I'm not in the slightest bit bothered about it, but there's no way what happened at PIA is humane.


Look around the world and you will see that most non-industrial animal slaughters are done by blood letting.
 
turjo101
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:53 am

WTF is this thread even about? Is it aviation safety / animal cruelty / religion / superstition? I think this is a non-issue. Someone got their hand on the photo of a goat with its throat-cut under an airplane and decided to post a story which instead of discussing the pertinent issues about Pakistan's investigation into the recent accident and whats being done currently, opened up ridiculous albeit funny remarks which are mostly denigrating a nation still reeling from a tragedy. Has the ATRs gone back to service? Has PIA done nothing since the accident?
 
NichCage
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:58 am

If you keep a plane in good shape, it will most likely have never have any incidents. I don't understand this- why kill a goat if you can just maintain the plane to ensure it will never get in an incident?
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:29 am

NichCage wrote:
I don't understand this- why kill a goat if you can just maintain the plane to ensure it will never get in an incident?

Im pretty sure you'll find the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive - I don't think it says anywhere that the goat sacrifice was instead of maintenance. Indeed:

BobPatterson wrote:
The important part of the story was this:

"According to a spokesman for the national flag carrier, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) had decided to ground the ATR-42 fleet until all its aircraft had been subjected to the shakedown tests and cleared for flight operations."

Science, not superstition, should be respected.


Would I sacrifice a goat? No. Not my thing at all. Animal sacrifices hold no place in my religious beliefs, and I would see them as superstitions that are no longer necessary. But I think we should be careful pointing out things that seem absurd in other cultural practices without a) understanding why they are done and b) being sure there aren't cultural practices in our own culture that couldn't be construed as absurd by someone else outside of it.

V/F
 
Ammad
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:21 am

PIA spokes person mention two things:
1) It happen at the Maintenance area, not before flight departure or on the Tarmac, as you can see from near by drainage grill that this place is not definitely tarmac or not before departure of the flight. ---Which seems correct to me.
2)They also mention that local employee did that at their own with out official involvement of PIA senior officials. -
 
juliuswong
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:53 am

Back in 2007, Nepal Airlines sacrificed a pair of goat to help to solve never ending maintenance issues pertaining to its 757 fleet. Well, after the ceremony, the 757 made a successful flight to Hong Kong. Guess the goats' sacrifice was worth it, Rest In Peace goats.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nepal-ai ... jet-2015-1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6979292.stm
 
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lebda
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:11 am

And this is a big deal how? Y'all just made this thread to condemn brown people.
 
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richcam427
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:12 am

I'm all for religious freedom, but needlessly killing animals is where I draw the line.
Last edited by richcam427 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
dc10co
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:13 am

At least the inflight meal was fresh!!
 
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afterburner
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:08 am

richcam427 wrote:
I'm all for religious freedom, but needlessly killing animals is where I draw the line.

The meat will be consumed. It isn't as wasteful as breaking a bottle of champagne while blessing a new ship.
 
groundbird
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:20 pm

A robust culture of Safety First @ Pakistan International Airlines - Safety Meeting
 
sadiqutp
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:54 pm

Superstitions and sacrifices are stupid. It's a way for the lazy minds to acquire some meaning in life, and I don't blame them. It's a free world after all.

HOWEVER,
Connecting the issue of PIA's safety record and the ritual as one topic, as some commenters did, is also stupid. We can discuss and question their maintenance credibility all day long. As well, we may discuss religious rituals and superstitions, although this website wouldn't necessarily be the place. Discussing both as one topic, however, is a bit odd

Cheers
 
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klm617
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:06 pm

I can not believe that people agree with this this is 2016 not the stone age and these kinds of things are the very reason we have so many problems in the world today. While this may have been acceptable way back when it doesn't fit in any way in the world today and you can't compare this at all with cracking a bottle of champagne over the nose of a airplane or a water cannon salute it is the killing of a life and where does that stop perhaps there is a ritual in some backwards country that sacrifices a child I suppose that makes it OK because some people use water to bless a plane.
 
Calder
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:14 pm

Well, it might be a bit weird to me, but then again, I don't regularly fly PIA.

If it helps some individual somewhere get over their fear of flying, what do I care?

It wasn't my goat.
 
anshabhi
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:06 pm

As 90% of the people here are non-veg, what's your view about this video: https://youtu.be/vuGRKuWponY unknowingly or knowingly, you have sacrified much more animals than a single goat and you keep sacrificing millions of animals every day.

(I am a pure veg Indian)

I request you to stop eating animals. Stop eating meat. Please save animals. Veg food is just as healthy as non-veg (I am 17 years old, 6' long, 75 kgs). And don't worry, you will not miss the taste of non-veg food either. One more video please: https://youtu.be/Ya5_XxaaGxI
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:53 pm

afterburner wrote:
richcam427 wrote:
I'm all for religious freedom, but needlessly killing animals is where I draw the line.

The meat will be consumed. It isn't as wasteful as breaking a bottle of champagne while blessing a new ship.


Based on what is presented in the picture - this 'slaughter' looks as if it was done as Halal. While I do not condone the killing of animals, I am pragmatic enough to accept that the killing of animals has led to where I am as a Human today. In other words, I won't sit here and bemoan the loss of that goat, in my leather chair. That said, consider the image that this presents to the majority of the people affected by the crash (people originating all over Pakistan, yes, but centered around the loss of families in Chitral and Islamabad); Pakistanis. This is the flag carrier of a nation that is not only Islamic, but also a Republic, and a Pakistani one at that. These aircraft rarely see service outside of Pakistan - and PIA's market remains so very much so stacked in Pakistan - that this move (though 'gruesome') is another (and perhaps social/religious) move to assure the public (the majority of which will at least understand the basis of the 'sacrifice', as appeasement to the more conservative members of Pakistani society).

...and to be quite frank, bashing a bottle of champagne, is far more risky.

Of another note, and I doubt that we will ever know the truth, fully - but I wonder what changes were made (if any) at PIA, and maintenance - to improve safety?

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2016/12 ... spections/

After the crash, there was an 'incident' on Dec. 11th, which is what effected the grounding to begin with. Can we expect some sort of reporting on what is being done?
 
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scbriml
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:04 pm

Byrdluvs747 wrote:
Look around the world and you will see that most non-industrial animal slaughters are done by blood letting.


Sure, but that doesn't make it humane.

anshabhi wrote:
I request you to stop eating animals. Stop eating meat. Please save animals.


Not eating meat will not save those animals - none of them would have ever existed if we were all vegetarians.
 
Ammad
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Re: PIA Staff Sacrifice Goat on Ramp as Prayer for Safety of ATR42s

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:22 pm

Rightly put CanadaFair.

The Safety Investigation Board (SIB) has sent the flight data recorder, commonly known as the black box, of the ill-fated Pakistan International Airlines flight PK-661 that crashed near Havelian on Dec 7 to France for decoding.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1303400/pk-66 ... r-decoding

BEA assigned file number BEA2016-0760 for AP-BHO investigation.
https://www.bea.aero/en/investigation-r ... -pakistan/

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