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Hillis
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Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:01 pm

And that includes with the U.S. and the U.K.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/26/politics/ ... index.html

You get a combination of two hawks like Netenyahu and Trump together after January 20th, and they're lible to blow up half the Middle East. The Senior Senator from Tel Aviv now has lots of allies coming in in D.C. who will basically do as he tells them to do.

This is going to get ugly.
 
BMI727
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:19 pm

Whatever. Like all tantrums this will subside eventually.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Hillis
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:01 am

BMI727 wrote:
Whatever. Like all tantrums this will subside eventually.


No, this one won't. This is more than a tantrum. This is Netenyahu signaling that he's going even further that he's gone before. He also knows he has a new ally coming into power in Washington, and Trump is going to go wherever Bibi wants to take him. Trump has shown he won't stand up to Russia. He certainly won't stand up to Israel.
 
wingman
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:01 am

Bibi, Trump and Farage. Three idiots in a pod. Maybe Bibi can lead his people to Mars and steal shit from the Martians. He's certainly wearing out their welcome on Earth.
 
cpd
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:53 am

Hillis wrote:
And that includes with the U.S. and the U.K.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/26/politics/ ... index.html

You get a combination of two hawks like Netenyahu and Trump together after January 20th, and they're lible to blow up half the Middle East. The Senior Senator from Tel Aviv now has lots of allies coming in in D.C. who will basically do as he tells them to do.

This is going to get ugly.


Not really, it's just a little tantrum. They are throwing their toys out of the playpen because they couldn't get their own way. They've been so accustomed to bullying everyone else into towing a particular line.

I don't see what UK cares about this anyway. It's not like Israel can really threaten the UK in any way. UK on the other hand can make life extremely unpleasant for Netanyahu and his accomplices.

And if Israel starts getting too feisty, then Russia might step in to settle things down - especially if Syria looks under threat.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:38 am

Isn't Israel a nuclear armed power that is believed to have its weapons targeted all the place?

Not really someone I want to push around just for the sake of the Palestinians if I'm being honest.
 
TheF15Ace
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:51 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Isn't Israel a nuclear armed power that is believed to have its weapons targeted all the place?

Not really someone I want to push around just for the sake of the Palestinians if I'm being honest.


So where do we draw the line then? When Netenyahu snaps his fingers and tells us to get into a shooting war with Iran, should we comply because they have weapons targeted at all the places?

Israel should do well to remember that while they are indeed a powerful country, there are many others who could end them a few times over either in conventional or nuclear war.

I fully support Israel right to exist and believe we should support them to the fullest extent in a situation where they are threatened. However we shouldn't give them a free reign to be an aggressor in the region while hiding behind our military and logistical capabilities.
 
cpd
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:34 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Isn't Israel a nuclear armed power that is believed to have its weapons targeted all the place?

Not really someone I want to push around just for the sake of the Palestinians if I'm being honest.


Israel never said it had nuclear weapons... And besides, other powers also have nuclear weapons, and many, many times more of them, and probably targeted at specific locations too.

The best way we can be a friend of Israel is to be frank and open with them when necessary, and supportive at other times.
 
salttee
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:16 am

TheF15Ace wrote:
we shouldn't give them a free reign to be an aggressor in the region while hiding behind our military and logistical capabilities.
I am so happy to see you say this.

This "be an aggressor in the region" refers to being constantly expansionist. They will not stop stealing land until the US pulls the rug from under them. The US is paying for the Israeli expansion and the "Arabs" (and the Persians) know it. There will never be peace in the ME until Israel somehow decides to be responsible for its actions and stop its aggression.

Israel is currently in a major expansion phase in the West Bank; there are voices in Israel calling for the expulsion of all "Arabs" from the west bank. They are also currently sanctioning new permanent settlements on land in Gaza.

Can anybody notice a continuity here? No peace and permanent expansion: it's been going on for 118 years if you count the first Zionist Conference as the starting point. Since 1948 if you're a history novice. The Israeli people have been continuously aggressive for at least 118 years. It's time to say enough. It's time to halt the expansion of Israel and accept what they have and call the war off.

The alternative will be pointless wars.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:47 am

They can't stop building settlements because of the right of return policy, as long as that's still running they will be forever running out of land. Israel will be a thorn in the side of peace in the Middle East for as long as the US keeps supporting them.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:11 am

Kiwirob wrote:
They can't stop building settlements because of the right of return policy, as long as that's still running they will be forever running out of land. Israel will be a thorn in the side of peace in the Middle East for as long as the US keeps supporting them.


They don't need the settlements to house people. The Gaza strip proves that you can house many people on restricted space (5045 people per square km, Hong Kong has about 6553, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_density ). The main advantage of living in a settlement is cheaper real estate. Though Israel says many settlements are located on purchased ground, much of the real estate has been laundered through fraudulent sales - and nobody knows at which scale the settlements are subsidized through the various ministries (housing, water, agriculture, defense...).

In 2011, there were large-scale protests in Israel, centered on housing prices...

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
WIederling
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:33 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Isn't Israel a nuclear armed power that is believed to have its weapons targeted all the place?

Not really someone I want to push around just for the sake of the Palestinians if I'm being honest.


Small power "Nuclears" are a (well working) defensive tool.
It does not work for aggression.

Even the US can't use nukes ( though they would dearly and clearly like to use them )
without going into free fall over a black hole.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:05 am

Kiwirob wrote:
They can't stop building settlements because of the right of return policy, as long as that's still running they will be forever running out of land. Israel will be a thorn in the side of peace in the Middle East for as long as the US keeps supporting them.


Israel was much better served with reclamation of "unused" lands ( as done in the past )
than with stealing much land _and_ 100% of the water supply from the people
who were forced to gift them their land for the territory of Israel.
( Lets not haggle about the true indigenous or not nature of Palestinians.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
NIKV69
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:15 am

Hillis wrote:
And that includes with the U.S. and the U.K.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/26/politics/ ... index.html

You get a combination of two hawks like Netenyahu and Trump together after January 20th, and they're lible to blow up half the Middle East. The Senior Senator from Tel Aviv now has lots of allies coming in in D.C. who will basically do as he tells them to do.

This is going to get ugly.


It will only get ugly if Iran ramps it up. As Bibi said in his UN speech couple of years back. The are not going to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons. They better listen, come Jan 20th we won't have a passive, rich hating community organizer that sympathizes with Terrorists anymore.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
WIederling
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:09 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
The are not going to be allowed] to possess nuclear weapons.


Wrong wording. Israel has no jurisdiction over Iran. ( so they can't allow or disallow it )
The UN is in a slightly better position as they are kind of an arbitration institute for all nations. ( so much for the theory.)
This is completely moot if Israel steps away from the UN.

What Israel can try to do is deny Iran nuclear $something.
This would be mingling in internal affairs of a foreign nation. Verboten!
( Difficult position under equals anyway as Israel has nuclear armament of their own.
Keeping up with the Joneses comes to mind.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
BestWestern
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:23 pm

Israel does what it wants as the Americans allow it. Until now it seems, and even this was a mild rebuke.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:04 pm

WIederling wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
The are not going to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.


Wrong wording. Israel has no jurisdiction over Iran. ( so they can't allow or disallow it )


Reading that, I felt reminded of Israel's invasion of Southern Lebanon. Their goal was to flush the PLO out. But yet in the power vacuum they created, Iran-founded Hezbollah found a nice niche. So much about respecting other countries' sovereignty. It's a nightmare to be Israel's neighbour.

And if Israel is allowed to keep nuclear weapons for self-defense, why aren't other countries allowed to do the same? :mischievous:

With Trump at the helm of the US, matters won't improve. :yuck:


David
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Kiwirob
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:40 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
They can't stop building settlements because of the right of return policy, as long as that's still running they will be forever running out of land. Israel will be a thorn in the side of peace in the Middle East for as long as the US keeps supporting them.


They don't need the settlements to house people. The Gaza strip proves that you can house many people on restricted space (5045 people per square km, Hong Kong has about 6553, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_density ). The main advantage of living in a settlement is cheaper real estate. Though Israel says many settlements are located on purchased ground, much of the real estate has been laundered through fraudulent sales - and nobody knows at which scale the settlements are subsidized through the various ministries (housing, water, agriculture, defense...).

In 2011, there were large-scale protests in Israel, centered on housing prices...

David


I doubt many jews especially immigrants form the US or other western countries want to live in tight conditions like Hong Kong or slums like Gaza.
 
Hillis
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:47 pm

cpd wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Isn't Israel a nuclear armed power that is believed to have its weapons targeted all the place?

Not really someone I want to push around just for the sake of the Palestinians if I'm being honest.


Israel never said it had nuclear weapons... And besides, other powers also have nuclear weapons, and many, many times more of them, and probably targeted at specific locations too.

The best way we can be a friend of Israel is to be frank and open with them when necessary, and supportive at other times.


One of the worst-kept secrets in the world is that Israel is a nuclear power. They have been since at least the late 1960's. There's even the belief that they were close to using them in the Yom Kippur war, when Syria had broken through Israel's last line of defense. That is simply a given.

Netenyahu doesn't want "frank and open" discussion. He wants the U.S, especially, to build their Middle East foreign policy exclusively around the needs of Israel. And in Trump and the conservatives that will control Capitol Hill, they have a group of people who would gladly get the U.S. into another war in the region, U.S. interests be damned.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:58 pm

The US religious zealots supporting Israel don't care about Jews one bit, that's the worst part, they believe they're fulfilling a prophecy where Jews won't fare well unless they convert to Christianism.

Giving such people any power is madness.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Hillis
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
The US religious zealots supporting Israel don't care about Jews one bit, that's the worst part, they believe they're fulfilling a prophecy where Jews won't fare well unless they convert to Christianism.

Giving such people any power is madness.


Exactly. And that's what worries me with a weak, easily manipulated fool like Trump as President.
 
WIederling
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:59 pm

Hillis wrote:
Trump has shown he won't stand up to Russia. He certainly won't stand up to Israel.


Looks like Trump might want to stop uncalled for hazing of Russia by the US.
the same thinking process would set Bibby the Neanderthal into free fall.

Question:
Are the Israel supporters in the US the same power group that go for encroachment towards Russia?
I'd guess yes.

Israels ruling class today is made of of people that never fought a war.
thus the previously achieved status quo is absolutely worthless in their eyes.
Everything has been placed in their lap and they prosper on lies, backstabbing, assasinations
and breaking treaties.
Murphy is an optimist
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:39 pm

WIederling wrote:

Israels ruling class today is made of of people that never fought a war.


Ahem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_ ... and_career
 
WIederling
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:02 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Israels ruling class today is made of of people that never fought a war.


Ahem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_ ... and_career


Reads bigger than life. A bit beautified and pimped up maybe?

Anyway neither the Ultra Orthodox nor the recent Russian Immigrants
had real skin in the formation wars. But these are the groups that have
political weight today!

The orthodox on "we are so holy we can't bear arms".
The russians because they were late and just participated in the feasting afterwards.
Murphy is an optimist
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:16 pm

I think Bibi and his brothers service with the military is well documented all the place isn't it?
 
BMI727
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:28 pm

Hillis wrote:
This is Netenyahu signaling that he's going even further that he's gone before. He also knows he has a new ally coming into power in Washington, and Trump is going to go wherever Bibi wants to take him.

But that was never in doubt. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Netanyahu to be scaling back ties and dressing down ambassadors because it's leverage I'm not sure he has (what is the potential cost for other nations anyway?) and he doesn't need. If Bibi is going to move further towards expelling and/or exterminating the Palestinians once and for all Trump was never going to lift a finger to stop it, so I don't see what this latest move buys him.

cpd wrote:
I don't see what UK cares about this anyway. It's not like Israel can really threaten the UK in any way. UK on the other hand can make life extremely unpleasant for Netanyahu and his accomplices.

They're going to have to because Trump cannot be counted on to stand up for anyone's rights, including and especially Muslims.

cpd wrote:
And if Israel starts getting too feisty, then Russia might step in to settle things down - especially if Syria looks under threat.

That's another concern. It should be a foreign policy goal of the US to minimize Russian influence in the Middle East and make it as uncomfortable as possible for their efforts to keep Assad in power.

TheF15Ace wrote:
I fully support Israel right to exist and believe we should support them to the fullest extent in a situation where they are threatened. However we shouldn't give them a free reign to be an aggressor in the region while hiding behind our military and logistical capabilities.

There has been a fundamental shift in the issue since the 1970s. Israel's existence is no longer under threat and is accepted, even supported, by the Arab world whether they admit it or not. Arab countries are not going to screw around trying to get rid of Israel because it would cost them too much money and having Israel around does not threaten their wealth so they have bigger things to worry about. Now there is also the added wrinkle that Israel is a de facto ally in the tensions between Arab powers and Iran. Really having Israel as an outspoken firebrand with respect to Iran helps keep an illusion of Islamic unity.

At this point I think the vast majority of Arab governmental opposition to Israel as a state is symbolic.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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lugie
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:46 pm

NIKV69 wrote:

It will only get ugly if Iran ramps it up. As Bibi said in his UN speech couple of years back. The are not going to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons. They better listen, come Jan 20th we won't have a passive, rich hating community organizer that sympathizes with Terrorists anymore.


It is exclusively because of Obama's Iran deal (the one that Senate traitors intended to tank) that the west has any grip on Iran's nuclear policies.
It is only now that Iran has anything to lose at all.
They were isolated enough before not to give a damn about what anyone - be that the UN, the IAEA or let alone the US/EU - thought about them using their nuclear facilities for enriching plutonium to build bombs. Now they are being economically integrated, a privilege they won't risk giving up again, under the condition to admit independent controlling agencies into their facilities and it seems to work out fine.

But sure, a guy who's threatened to blow their Navy out of the sea for flipping off US ships damn sure seems to be the diplomat this whole mess has needed.
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Hillis
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:31 pm

lugie wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

It will only get ugly if Iran ramps it up. As Bibi said in his UN speech couple of years back. The are not going to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons. They better listen, come Jan 20th we won't have a passive, rich hating community organizer that sympathizes with Terrorists anymore.


It is exclusively because of Obama's Iran deal (the one that Senate traitors intended to tank) that the west has any grip on Iran's nuclear policies.
It is only now that Iran has anything to lose at all.
They were isolated enough before not to give a damn about what anyone - be that the UN, the IAEA or let alone the US/EU - thought about them using their nuclear facilities for enriching plutonium to build bombs. Now they are being economically integrated, a privilege they won't risk giving up again, under the condition to admit independent controlling agencies into their facilities and it seems to work out fine.

But sure, a guy who's threatened to blow their Navy out of the sea for flipping off US ships damn sure seems to be the diplomat this whole mess has needed.


NIKV69 and others thinks such bluster and bellowing is a sign of strength, when in fact it's the sign of a weak, insecure, ignorant individual.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:47 pm

BMI727 wrote:
But that was never in doubt. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Netanyahu to be scaling back ties and dressing down ambassadors because it's leverage I'm not sure he has (what is the potential cost for other nations anyway?) and he doesn't need.


Netanyahu personally threatened to close Israel's embassy in New Zealand in an attempt to delay or cancel the vote.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.761706

Another nugget of interesting information in that article is the "proof" Israel has of direct US involvement is that the UK secretly helped reword the resolution so the language wouldn't be harsher than what the US was ready to abstain over.
 
BMI727
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:02 pm

blueflyer wrote:
Netanyahu personally threatened to close Israel's embassy in New Zealand in an attempt to delay or cancel the vote.

Meh. Someone is going to have to explain how doing that would make New Zealand worse off.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
WIederling
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:39 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
I think Bibi and his brothers service with the military is well documented all the place isn't it?


With his personality I'd tag him as "Etappenhengst". Small country that Israel is he might have gotten shot at too.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:04 pm

BMI727 wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
Netanyahu personally threatened to close Israel's embassy in New Zealand in an attempt to delay or cancel the vote.

Meh. Someone is going to have to explain how doing that would make New Zealand worse off.


As a kiwi I don't believe we should have diplomatic relations with Israel all, especially when Mossad agents have been caught with illegially obtained NZ passports and had an active spy ring in NZ, unlucky for them the Christchurch earthquake happened and three of them were killed.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
I think Bibi and his brothers service with the military is well documented all the place isn't it?


With his personality I'd tag him as "Etappenhengst". Small country that Israel is he might have gotten shot at too.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeret_M ... le_members

Hardly a cushy office job is it?
 
solarflyer22
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:26 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
They can't stop building settlements because of the right of return policy, as long as that's still running they will be forever running out of land. Israel will be a thorn in the side of peace in the Middle East for as long as the US keeps supporting them.


They don't need the settlements to house people. The Gaza strip proves that you can house many people on restricted space (5045 people per square km, Hong Kong has about 6553, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_density ). The main advantage of living in a settlement is cheaper real estate. Though Israel says many settlements are located on purchased ground, much of the real estate has been laundered through fraudulent sales - and nobody knows at which scale the settlements are subsidized through the various ministries (housing, water, agriculture, defense...).

In 2011, there were large-scale protests in Israel, centered on housing prices...

David


Agreed. They have plenty of land as is. They are simply slowly but surely erasing whatever existed of Palestine as of the 1948 borders. Its like the old adage of boiling a frog by raising the water temperature slowly. That is their strategy and it has been all along. Taking huge blocks of land all at once is too obvious and creates punishments. They tried that with the Golan Heights and its not recognized.

I am just shocked that US media, politicians and citizens can't see what Israel is doing, even if its "creeping normalcy" its obvious what they are attempting to do.

Recall also that Jews wanted all this land long before WWII and the Holocaust. The Balfour Declaration is dated 1917. They've been working this land grab for 99 years in other words. Wake up.
 
solarflyer22
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:40 am

lugie wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

It will only get ugly if Iran ramps it up. As Bibi said in his UN speech couple of years back. The are not going to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons. They better listen, come Jan 20th we won't have a passive, rich hating community organizer that sympathizes with Terrorists anymore.


It is exclusively because of Obama's Iran deal (the one that Senate traitors intended to tank) that the west has any grip on Iran's nuclear policies.
It is only now that Iran has anything to lose at all.
They were isolated enough before not to give a damn about what anyone - be that the UN, the IAEA or let alone the US/EU - thought about them using their nuclear facilities for enriching plutonium to build bombs. Now they are being economically integrated, a privilege they won't risk giving up again, under the condition to admit independent controlling agencies into their facilities and it seems to work out fine.

But sure, a guy who's threatened to blow their Navy out of the sea for flipping off US ships damn sure seems to be the diplomat this whole mess has needed.


As an Iranian American engineer who was raised in Iran, all I can say is the US will never be the deciding factor on nukes for Iran. Much like the Hostage Crisis, the US is not in control. When the Iranian people mobilize, it is like the revolution of 1979, they will all work together in a way and manner unseen in anywhere in the Western world.

The reason Iran never cracked during sanctions is because the vast majority of the population supports developing a deterrent nuclear weapon. They hardly even had protests.
 
Flighty
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:42 pm

As I still say, Bibi is hoping to die in a war, that is his aim. Every action is toward that aim. And he may get what he wishes for.
 
wingman
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:44 pm

solarflyer22 wrote:
As an Iranian American engineer who was raised in Iran, all I can say is the US will never be the deciding factor on nukes for Iran. Much like the Hostage Crisis, the US is not in control. When the Iranian people mobilize, it is like the revolution of 1979, they will all work together in a way and manner unseen in anywhere in the Western world. The reason Iran never cracked during sanctions is because the vast majority of the population supports developing a deterrent nuclear weapon. They hardly even had protests.


I agree with much of your position on Israeli settlement building but this paragraph here is an absurd entry in an otherwise coherent post. The US was in fact a deciding factor on "nukes for Iran" but it could only be THE deciding factor in a unilateral military campaign to destroy the infrastructure. By it's very definition a multilateral agreement takes a minimum of two parties. And as much I would protest such a military campaign, if the US decided that it's very survival was predicated on a successful outcome, that being the complete dismemberment of Iran's nuclear capability, I wouldn't bet against it.

Second point, the people in Iran don't protest much of anything do they? And for good reason. I think the Ayatollahs discourage that kind of behavior quite effectively.

Third point, people in the Western world don't know how to mobilize and stand together? This comment is just too silly to even bother with.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:38 pm

I just heard (yes, I love radio news - online news are just too overwhelming and too distracting, making me waste tons of time) that Bibi Netanyahu criticized Mr. Kerry's speech, saying that the root of the conflict was that the Palestinians do not accept a Jewish state, no matter what borders it would have.

First, it evokes the thought "So, Palestinians must be anti-semites, right?", and secondly, just by authorizing one settlement after the other Israel proves it does not care about... borders. Most of what the Israeli government has ever done does not raise Palestinian trust in its neighbour.

Yes, when you're interested in making peace, you simply don't do anything which could be seen as a provocation. Like criticizing a US Secretary of State who is in good standing with Palestinian diplomats.

solarflyer22 wrote:
Recall also that Jews wanted all this land long before WWII and the Holocaust. The Balfour Declaration is dated 1917. They've been working this land grab for 99 years in other words. Wake up.


The Balfour declaration isn't such a bad document - it specifically says that the rights of the non-Jewish inhabitants shall not be diminished...

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Kilopond
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:28 pm

BMI727 wrote:
[...]There has been a fundamental shift in the issue since the 1970s.[...]


Sorry to say so, but this is a wrong roadmap. Strict anti-zionism had been part and parcel of the "Cold War". With the exception of the Ceaușescu regime, no communist country recognised Israel diplomatically. Certain zionist views on certain alleged historical evetnts had been either neglected or even openly deconstructed.

So replace "1970" with "1990" and you'll be fine. (Try to find a schoolbook or encyclopedia from the eastern block containing the H-word: you'll fail, because there is none).
 
solarflyer22
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:56 am

wingman wrote:
solarflyer22 wrote:
As an Iranian American engineer who was raised in Iran, all I can say is the US will never be the deciding factor on nukes for Iran. Much like the Hostage Crisis, the US is not in control. When the Iranian people mobilize, it is like the revolution of 1979, they will all work together in a way and manner unseen in anywhere in the Western world. The reason Iran never cracked during sanctions is because the vast majority of the population supports developing a deterrent nuclear weapon. They hardly even had protests.


I agree with much of your position on Israeli settlement building but this paragraph here is an absurd entry in an otherwise coherent post. The US was in fact a deciding factor on "nukes for Iran" but it could only be THE deciding factor in a unilateral military campaign to destroy the infrastructure. By it's very definition a multilateral agreement takes a minimum of two parties. And as much I would protest such a military campaign, if the US decided that it's very survival was predicated on a successful outcome, that being the complete dismemberment of Iran's nuclear capability, I wouldn't bet against it.

Second point, the people in Iran don't protest much of anything do they? And for good reason. I think the Ayatollahs discourage that kind of behavior quite effectively.

Third point, people in the Western world don't know how to mobilize and stand together? This comment is just too silly to even bother with.


Your comments are laughably ignorant. The Iranians protested in enormous numbers, under both the Shah and recently in 2009. They just didn't protest over economic hardship because they believed in what the Ayatollahs were doing (something your media never tells you FYI). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Green_Movement

The West has never mobilized like Iran can. If you had seen the Iran-Iraq war and their commitment, and I am quite certain you didn't, you'd know what I was talking about.

The only way the US could be a deciding factor on nukes is if they attacked Iran directly. If Iran really wants nukes, it will get them. The reason your logic is incorrect is that you, like usual Westerners, believes Iran was desperately seeking nuclear weapons for an astounding 37 years and yet magically decided all of sudden that sanctions and air strike threats were just "too much" and it had to give in. If you actually believe that Israel, USA and media pushed narrative of events...then I have the cure to cancer to sell you. Only costs a million bucks :)
 
salttee
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:01 am

wingman wrote:
(The US can bring) a unilateral military campaign to destroy the infrastructure.
There's a number of things wrong with that premise.

As Iraq proved, you can't really halt a nuke program without boots on the ground. Now take into account that Russia would be willing and eager to turn Iran into a laboratory for honing stealth killing air defense equipment and tactics. And Russia would be very opposed to US troops setting foot on Eurasian soil. Then there is the potential for creating actual Shiia terrorist factions (not just imaginary ones like currently exist.) Then there is Persia itself, Solarflyer can bring you up to date on that.

I am troubled by the naivety I am seeing here, over in the military forum there are people talking about US aviation as if it's omnipotent. I've heard all that before, we're currently less than ten years past the last debacle and it's as if nobody remembers.

wingman wrote:
if the US decided that it's very survival was predicated on a successful outcome, that being the complete dismemberment of Iran's nuclear capability, I wouldn't bet against it.

That's kind of a problem for the anti-Iran crowd. Iran is not a threat to the US.

Just like Vietnam was no threat to us.
Just like Saddam was no threat to us.

But we never seem to be able to figure this out until we're stuck in a quagmire.
 
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KruegerFlaps
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:33 am

Kilopond wrote:
With the exception of the Ceaușescu regime, no communist country recognised Israel diplomatically.


I was under the impression that the Soviet Union granted Israel de jure recognition on the 17th of May, 1948. This was just three days after the declaration of independence. Golda Meir was the country's first plenipotentiary to the USSR. I am aware that relations were broken off during the 1967 Six Day War and were not restored until 1991.

So "strict anti-zionism" was not always at the core of the Cold War. For the first 19 years of Israel's existence it had the official recognition and diplomatic representation of the USSR despite increasing arms sales to countries like Egypt and Syria. Even after diplomatic relations were broken off, the USSR did not withdraw de jure recognition, though the interests of Israel in Moscow were served by the Netherlands and those of the USSR by Finland in Tel Aviv.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt Speech, 1783
 
WIederling
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:56 am

Flighty wrote:
As I still say, Bibi is hoping to die in a war, that is his aim. Every action is toward that aim. And he may get what he wishes for.


He may have to detour via a stint in prison?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Mortyman
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:09 pm

Benji is getting a lot of Critical responses in Israel:



Analysis from Haaretz:

It's the Settlements, Stupid: Security Council Failure Is Entirely Netanyahu's

The U.S. warned Netanyahu for eight years that his policy would have a price, but he preferred pacifying the settler lobby instead of making a plan of action. He has only himself to blame.


Jerusalem Post:

Dov Weisglass, who served as former prime minister Ariel Sharon's chief of staff, said Tuesday

Netanyahu response to UN vote isolating Israel, Ariel Sharon confidant says

Dov Weisglass slams Netanyahu's moves to punish states that voted for anti-settlement resolution

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's response to the passage of a UN Security Council resolution calling for a halt to settlements is serving to fulfill the Palestinian dream of isolating Israel internationally, Dov Weisglass, who served as former prime minister Ariel Sharon's chief of staff, said Tuesday

[quote]"I see [Netanyahu's] response mainly as ridiculous. The attempt to create symmetry between us and the rest of the world and to punish the 14 countries that voted against us is actually making the Palestinian dream of isolating Israel internationally into reality," Weisglass said in an interview with Army Radio.

He said that the summoning of ambassadors to be reprimanded was a display of "rudeness" on Netanyahu's part. "To summon foreign ambassadors on a Sunday, especially on Christmas, is simply an elementary lack of manners. I think these reprimands are making people laugh in the foreign embassies involved. Even Senegal is not scared," Weisglass quipped. He said that the moves were an example of Netanyahu playing to his own political base in Israel.

Wesiglass said that the US decision not to veto the resolution was in keeping with the position of the current US administration and previous US administrations.

"Neither this administration, nor previous administrations ever liked the idea of the settlements, Weisglass said. "The US never recognized, not only the annexation of east Jerusalem, but didn't recognize our sovereignty over west Jerusalem, therefore the embassy wasn't in Jerusalem even before 1967. This is the traditional stance of the American government and we always had disagreements."

Weisglass rejected the notion that this view was unique to the Obama administration. "I was chief of staff during the tenure of a president who was considered very friendly to Israel, George W. Bush, and 80% of the disagreements with the Bush administration were over the question of settlements," he said.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politi ... ays-476650
 
cpd
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:12 pm

And sanctions will be brought against New Zealand for this:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... tlskt.html

Well, not quite. Just the wish of one of our "more interesting" political characters.
 
mham001
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:37 am

I have not seen any analysis of this here but there was much more to this resolution than just settlements. It also included all of Jerusalem and some other areas that have long been part of Israel. Some US Jewish Democrats are livid and even leaving the party over this (and Kieth Ellison). I listened to Alan Dershowitz blast the administration today, saying if it were only about the settlements, most would agree but it is the periphery language that has enraged them - language that Obama and Kerry approved.

Something he mentioned, in 2016, the UN passed 20 resolutions condemning Israel. The rest of the world, 8.
 
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moo
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:47 am

mham001 wrote:
I have not seen any analysis of this here but there was much more to this resolution than just settlements. It also included all of Jerusalem and some other areas that have long been part of Israel.



You are aware that Israel *annexed* first west Jerusalem and then east Jerusalem, right? That doesn't give it any legal right to it, any more than Russia has legal right to Crimea.

Thats why the resolutions include Israel - it is stolen land, not rightful property.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:02 pm

mham001 wrote:
Something he mentioned, in 2016, the UN passed 20 resolutions condemning Israel. The rest of the world, 8.


That's because the Israel-Palestine conflict is the oldest we have in the world, with the possible exception of domestic quarrels. Its beginnings can be traced back to about 1870, when first European Jewish settlers arrived. And because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ties up much of the UN's resources. If Israel and Palestine would learn to talk and respect each other, we wouldn't need any new resolution. Would be a huge relief to the international community.

But there are no signs they're working for peace. Just yesterday Bibi Netanyahu talked about pardoning a convicted killer who shot an incapacitated Palestinian attacker. Imagine the outrage in Israel would Mahmoud Abbas suggest pardoning somebody who shot an injured Israeli.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
mham001
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:06 pm

moo wrote:
mham001 wrote:
I have not seen any analysis of this here but there was much more to this resolution than just settlements. It also included all of Jerusalem and some other areas that have long been part of Israel.



You are aware that Israel *annexed* first west Jerusalem and then east Jerusalem, right? That doesn't give it any legal right to it, any more than Russia has legal right to Crimea.

Thats why the resolutions include Israel - it is stolen land, not rightful property.


Are you trying to say Jews have no historical rights in any part of Jerusalem?
 
mham001
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Re: Israel Scaling Back Ties After UN Vote

Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:17 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Something he mentioned, in 2016, the UN passed 20 resolutions condemning Israel. The rest of the world, 8.


That's because the Israel-Palestine conflict is the oldest we have in the world, with the possible exception of domestic quarrels. Its beginnings can be traced back to about 1870, when first European Jewish settlers arrived. And because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ties up much of the UN's resources. If Israel and Palestine would learn to talk and respect each other, we wouldn't need any new resolution. Would be a huge relief to the international community.

But there are no signs they're working for peace. Just yesterday Bibi Netanyahu talked about pardoning a convicted killer who shot an incapacitated Palestinian attacker. Imagine the outrage in Israel would Mahmoud Abbas suggest pardoning somebody who shot an injured Israeli.


David


David, I have no horse in this race and like most, have not agreed with their settlement expansion, it only creates more trouble. That said, Israel is often quite unfairly criticized.

As I understand, Israel has repeatedly offered the Palestinians peace talks in the last decade but the Palestinians have refused to even talk without pre-conditions. I believe that revolves around Israels 'right to exist". Is that all true? And if so, how can you possibly say "they're not working for peace"? What have the Palestinians done to promote peace and how many UN resolutions have been passed condemning them in this mess? Beyond that, the conflict this year has been mostly quite calm, while the rest of the region smolders in hell. Why this focus only on Israel, the only true democracy and most successful, diverse society in the region?

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