User avatar
alberchico
Topic Author
Posts: 3185
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:06 am

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/arti ... -interview

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38632485

I like the fact that he called Merkels decision to let in 1 million refugees " catastrophic" which is what it was.

There was also this tidbit:

''People entering the U.S. will face “extreme” security checks, possibly including some European nationals''

''Trump’s reported comments leave little doubt that he’ll stick to campaign positions and may in some cases upend decades of U.S. foreign policy, putting him fundamentally at odds with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on issues from free trade and refugees to security and the EU’s role in the world''

What do our euro members feel about Trumps positions on Europe ?
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:48 am

alberchico wrote:
What do our euro members feel about Trumps positions on Europe ?

This American is incensed that Trump is meddling in German internal politics. He is destroying valuable relationships with solid democratic countries and trying to form a bond with a totalitarian murderer in Russia. He has to be stopped.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:52 am

salttee wrote:
alberchico wrote:
What do our euro members feel about Trumps positions on Europe ?

This American is incensed that Trump is meddling in German internal politics. He is destroying valuable relationships with solid democratic countries and trying to form a bond with a totalitarian murderer in Russia. He has to be stopped.


When did he "meddle"? It is already a fait accompli. Nothing more than a comment after the fact.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4903
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:19 am

No surprise here. Trump is doing exactly what Putin wants (and what he told him to do), which is helping destabilize Europe and diminishing NATO...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:15 am

NATO is the most successful peace organisation the world has ever had. We haven't had a war in western europe for over 70 years, which is unprecedented. Without NATO this would not have been possible. I trust the the cabinet members with Military Background will educate him on the values of NATO. Regarding the costs, right now Germany is footing the bill for the logistics of sending tanks to the Baltic states. We do air policing there as well and I doubt that the Baltics are getting the bill. fine with me. The US have a few logistic bases in Germany, Ramstein and Spangdahlem AB as well as Wiesbaden AAF which serves as a base for Europe. All These have no influence on German defence. Why would the Donald bill us for that? Again, he has experienced Generals in his Team who will educate him.

As to the Million so called refugees. What would Mr. T. have said if Germany, with our historic Background, kept the refugees outside? That was a stampede, probably organised by Mr. Erdogan. There was no other way of handling this. Meanwhile thr Situation is stable.

BMWs vs. Chevrolets. Nice joke, I had a good laugh already this morning. BTW, BMW was one of the first to build a plant in the US and they Export US made beamers even to Germany. Mercedes does the same in Tuscaloosa. Shall we impose a 35% "border" tax on These cars as well` BTW, someonme should tell The Donald that the tech term for "border" tax is duty.

Extreme border checks on visitors. I am genuine German Born and raised in the umpteenth Generation and I can prove it and I still love the US, although I never liked the big mouth. That Dates back to the early 70s when I lived in Forest Hills. Do I get a quick pass?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:26 am

What he said makes sense for his voters. The rest is his typical way of trying to solve complex problems with simple solutions.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3054
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:28 am

Good. Now hopefully Europeans will start waking up and seeing that the European Union is the only way forward.

PanHAM wrote:
NATO is the most successful peace organisation the world has ever had. We haven't had a war in western europe for over 70 years, which is unprecedented.


Lol, "peaceful"! :lol: Nice joke :yes:

Seriously, peace in western europe is something you can thank the EU for, not NATO. NATO is ruled by a bunch of hawkish generals who would love nothing more than to fight yet another war. Since the end of the cold war, NATO has, in part, been responsible for the wars in Libya, Afghanistan and some of the Yugoslav wars. NATO also played a part in the Georgian war of 2008, and most likely also in the latest Ukrainian revolution (maiden something). These were actions that had nothing to do with the protection of NATO member states, and in the case of Libya and Afghanistan, has only contributed to increased tensions in Western Europe due to mass immigration.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:51 am

Seriously, I mean that. NATO was existant Long before the EU. The wars in AfghanistanLibya and the Balkans are home made and not sparked by NATO. One can discuss whether the NATO ocuntries should get involved in establishing peace on those regions but then we can discuss also if and why there should be Police or fire brigades. Most of These wars BTW are sparked by an aggressive and expanding Religion. Not by Generals who cannot act without a parliamentary Mandate in most NATO countries.

Withput NATO, western Europe would not be what it is today and that should serve as a role model for establishing Basic human rights so that individuals can live their lives and not get dictated by religious laws., I won't live Long enough to see that happen, agreed, but it will happen
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:14 am

More on Trump, he criticised NATO and Merkel but from what i understand, no word on Mr. Putin and his war crimes in Syria, the illegal Crimean annecion and tha partly Invasion of the Ukraine. What does Mr. Trump owe Mr. Putin?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12256
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:23 am

salttee wrote:
alberchico wrote:
What do our euro members feel about Trumps positions on Europe ?

This American is incensed that Trump is meddling in German internal politics. He is destroying valuable relationships with solid democratic countries and trying to form a bond with a totalitarian murderer in Russia. He has to be stopped.


Unfortunately he's right, Merkels decision to allow in over 1 million refugees has forever changed the face of Europe, the real number is well over 1 million it's mre like 2 million and the Germans have lost hundreds of thousands of them. It's a security nightmare.

As an American taxpayer I thought you would would be ok with Trump asking NATO member states to pay up, you're footing most of the bill, Europe is getting a free ride.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:09 am

The cost of stationing US Forces in Germany- Mr. Trump gets something wrong here. i have entioned bfore that the US bases in Germany have Nil effect on the defense of Germany. These are logistic bases to Support the US overseas bases in the Middle east and the Far East as well and most recently Eastern Europe. Germany could ask Mr. trump to pay rent for the Locations, as a real estate man he will understand that. After all, the US et a free ride in Germany by having all their bases under the NATO troop statute whoich gives them all the benefits, from tax exemption onwards.

But I guess we will come to the Agreement with Trumpp that we pay our dues by supporting NATO.

Next, Kiwirob, your figures on illegal Immigration are wrong. I fully agree that we lost control but we got control back now ad the Dublin Agreement is back in force. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Derico
Posts: 4312
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:24 am

Trump has a massive insecurity complex. That is why he acts the way he does. Deep down he probably feels inferior for whatever reason, so his outward behavior reflects this. That is the only way you can explain what otherwise seem completely random, even at times irrational words and acts. In order to prove (to himself really) not inferior, he has to create confrontations with anyone about anything and emerge victorious. That feeds his ego, and brings it up to some temporary "equilibrium", until the effect wears off and the process starts all over again. That is why he is physiologically incapable of "backing off" even ONE time in an argument or difference of opinion. That is why confrontations with him usually escalate to the point where he goes overboard on the language or extreme on the position. It's all just do "out-do" the other party and there is little ratiotination or careful deliberation. That is why his fights on twitter, with women, with war wounded, with elderly, I think even with the CHILDREN of a veteran family once too wasn't it? I mean it's beyond the pale, but this feeling of eternal inferiority and needing to prove himself explains it.

He names everything he owns after himself. That should be a flag for anyone regardless.

And finally notice his "policies": almost always diametrically opposed to what he perceives is the majority view, he just has to be contrarian to prove (to himself) he is strong: so if you say climate change is the majority view, he will be anti-climate change. If being tough on Russia is the majority view, he will be buddies with them. If talking to China is the majority view, he will not pick up the phone ever. And down the list of issues you go. Which explains why he also clashes with his "own" party: if he feels the majority in his party want him to go up, he will go down. Just to prove he is the "man".

It is truly appalling that he is even president. It has nothing to do with his views, it is the fact he is simply not fit for a job that combines both executive powers and Head of State duties. As a PM he may barely be ok, bu not under a presidential system.

With his threats against private companies, his talk of tariffs, of ripping of economic and other treaties, his public verbal hemorrhages, his wanting to control foreign currency leaving the US, his attacks on the media (and I get it, the media has become a joke, but it is still something about democracy), and his use of public discontent to fuel the fires of populism, he is no different than former Argentine president Cristina Kirchner. And yea, they both love Botox too!.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:11 pm

alberchico wrote:
What do our euro members feel about Trumps positions on Europe ?



Full cavity search when he enters Europe.
Image

Hmm, complimentary extension to owners of US passports in general?
All about balances.
Murphy is an optimist
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:12 pm

It is amazing to watch this developing. He does not seem to understand how interntional manufacturing of global products work. Duty, or as he calls it, border tax is something antiquated 19th dentury. BMW builds cars in Spartanburg which they sell worldwide, including to Germany. The new plant in Mexico is for thje BMW 3 series and replacec plants in Germany and China. Here as well, the cars will be exported world wide from Mexico.

All These faqctories will have a Cluster of parts suppliers around them . Trump does not seem to unerstand how global markets work and what logistics makes possible. I cannot imagine that he wants to bring the dark Ages back to a high tch Country whch the US are. I get however second thoughts about that when I look at Pictures of his Penthouse in Trump Tower. The furnitures are fake 18th century, absoluteley tasteless.

Back to cars, his Statement was that he sees Mercedes cars in Manhattan in front of every door but no Chevrolets in Germany. Holy Canneloni, People buy cars for two reasons, cheap if the ain't got the Money and good if they have. Besides, we have a brand in Europe called OPEL which is wholly owned by GM and GM decided a couple of years ago eat into the Opel market by allowing to sells Chevies in Germany as well. IIRC however These small Chevies are built in Korea. Seems like he cannot understand such complex issues.

Dear Americans, how could you vote this man into Office? Have you ever thought that the Name TRUMP will be mounted on the Roof of the White House next week and that the neon tubes are already ordered?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3895
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:25 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Good. Now hopefully Europeans will start waking up and seeing that the European Union is the only way forward.


The more I hear Trump speak on foreign policy, the more I'm coming around to this point of view. A weakened and belligerent america will make force EU states to stick together and look out for one and other. Europeans will start to appreciate the benefits that the EU brings them and have more interest in fixing the EU's problems, rather than chickening out with localised forms of Brexit. The days of inaction in the face of Russian aggression towards the Baltic States and Ukraine are surely over. Those nations who choose an integrated future with Europe, who don't want to become a ghetto leaking weapons, AIDS, heroin, and a nasty strain of tuberculosis into the EU like Kaliningrad, will surely receive more support and enjoy closer relations with EU proper. TACIS to states that instead would rather be part of the Russian Customs Union will surely be suspended as the EU starts to realize and flex its diplomatic and economic might.

I like to think that Europe will strengthen its ties to Westernised Asia aswell. I wonder how China will fit into everything, given that Mr Trump seems set on having a trade war.


PanHAM wrote:
The cost of stationing US Forces in Germany- Mr. Trump gets something wrong here. i have entioned bfore that the US bases in Germany have Nil effect on the defense of Germany. These are logistic bases to Support the US overseas bases in the Middle east and the Far East as well and most recently Eastern Europe. Germany could ask Mr. trump to pay rent for the Locations, as a real estate man he will understand that. After all, the US et a free ride in Germany by having all their bases under the NATO troop statute whoich gives them all the benefits, from tax exemption onwards.

But I guess we will come to the Agreement with Trumpp that we pay our dues by supporting NATO.

Next, Kiwirob, your figures on illegal Immigration are wrong. I fully agree that we lost control but we got control back now ad the Dublin Agreement is back in force. .

Good point. People keep forgetting that the USA doesn't have soldiers and Airbases in Europe (or anywhere around the world, for that matter) out of altruism; they're doing it to project American power and to support American foreign policy objectives (ie containing Russia).
First to fly the 787-9
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:28 pm

"Back to cars, his Statement was that he sees Mercedes cars in Manhattan
in front of every door but no Chevrolets in Germany."

If i want a cheap Korean car I buy a Korean car ( that may have been assembled in India. :-)
No need to rebadge.
If I want a 1930ties car I look in the classics magazines.

What the average "buy American buyer" buys has no market abroad.
( that covers passenger cars and small trucks. big trucks ? no idea.)
apropos: any "truly American" car model around that is offered with RHD steering?
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:58 pm

What is good for America is good for the World, this is also true for cars.
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3614
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:08 pm

Trump is right, the EU has brought us nothing but misery, increased crime, terror threat and bad economic times.

zkojq wrote:
Those nations who choose an integrated future with Europe, who don't want to become a ghetto leaking weapons, AIDS, heroin, and a nasty strain of tuberculosis into the EU like Kaliningrad, will surely receive more support and enjoy closer relations with EU proper.


Kaliningrad is nothing compared to growing immigrant ghettos in many large cities of EU countries. Unless EU's migration policies change radically you'll see many European countries becoming worse and worse as their native populations continue to shrink in favour of poorly integrated Muslim migrants and their descendants.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
User avatar
DannyT
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:34 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:19 pm

Trump is a big mouth, it kind of reminds me of Brexit's £350 million NHS funding pledge. I'm quite sure that action-wise there's not going to be a radical change in the US foreign policy. In a way that is a good thing as EU member states fall on the back of US military supremacy, but demand equality when it comes to decisions in the military alliance. I generally believe the EU must unite even more, create an analogue called the United States of Europe, and fight under a common flag. That will definitely change some perspectives on the EU's might.

EITHER

There is going to be a radical change and it may very well lead to a catastrophe, one where the outcome will be simply unbelievable for the 21st century.

EU Citizen, living in the UK
Promoting future airport solutions with experts at Aviation Insider
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:45 pm

seahawk wrote:
What is good for America is good for the World, this is also true for cars.


Is there a "BrainROM" around for this new set of directives?
Murphy is an optimist
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:47 pm

PanHAM wrote:
NATO is the most successful peace organisation the world has ever had. We haven't had a war in western europe for over 70 years, which is unprecedented. Without NATO this would not have been possible. I trust the the cabinet members with Military Background will educate him on the values of NATO. Regarding the costs, right now Germany is footing the bill for the logistics of sending tanks to the Baltic states. We do air policing there as well and I doubt that the Baltics are getting the bill. fine with me. The US have a few logistic bases in Germany, Ramstein and Spangdahlem AB as well as Wiesbaden AAF which serves as a base for Europe. All These have no influence on German defence. Why would the Donald bill us for that? Again, he has experienced Generals in his Team who will educate him.


But Germany spends only 1.2% of GDP on defense, which is not enough to meet NATO targets. It is all very well to argue that Germany is paying to send tanks to the Baltic, but isolated pieces of spending aren't sufficient. In another post you wrote that the US is getting a "free ride" in Germany, which is categorically untrue. Those getting a free ride are the countries which do not pay their fair share. Of all NATO countries, only the US, UK, Greece, Estonia and Poland met the 2% spending target in 2016. If NATO is truly a coalition of equals, other countries need to start paying up.

PanHAM wrote:
As to the Million so called refugees. What would Mr. T. have said if Germany, with our historic Background, kept the refugees outside? That was a stampede, probably organised by Mr. Erdogan. There was no other way of handling this. Meanwhile thr Situation is stable.


Based on the "build the wall" chants, he'd probably have congratulated you. There were plenty of other ways to handle this - the most prudent way would have been the creation of safe zones within Syria. Instead, Mrs Merkel chose to fling open the borders and allow people to flood in virtually unchecked. As I'm sure you're aware, because of the Schengen Zone, this quickly became a problem for the whole of Europe, not just Germany. It is all very well for Germany to say "we will take these migrants", but quite another for the German Government to drag other European countries into the mess with them (without any kind of consultation) and then have the audacity to demand that other countries share the burden.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:52 pm

"But Germany spends only 1.2% of GDP on defense, "

the US spends ZERO% of GDP on defense.
It is all Ministry of War expenditure.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:56 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
There were plenty of other ways to handle this - the most prudent way would have been the creation of safe zones within Syria.


That is rather rich when the US has turned Syria into an UnsaveZone ( last in a long line of broken up countries.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:03 pm

WIederling wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
There were plenty of other ways to handle this - the most prudent way would have been the creation of safe zones within Syria.


That is rather rich when the US has turned Syria into an UnsaveZone ( last in a long line of broken up countries.)


I didn't agree with US actions in Syria, Egypt and Libya. It was quite clear where it was going to end up. The current administration must shoulder a lot of blame for destabilizing the region in recent years and should have done more to prevent the mass flight of people, but that doesn't detract from Germany's irresponsible actions.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:20 pm

@KLDC10 - such figures are relative, Germany has a high GDP, hence we pay a lot in real Money, we have our Forces stationed outside in such lovely places like Afghanistan and Mali. just Afghanistan has cost the European Tax payer 17 Billion € over the past ecade.
We have dismantled and scrapped a whole, highly armed army air force and navy some 245 years ago, the highly aggressive NVA of former east Germany. What Germany has today is less than what we had before 1989 alone, not speaking of the East German Forces.
We simply ran out of enemies, so why not allow us a peace dividend. Most Germans, me for cetain, are eternally grateful to Pres. Reagan who told Mr. Gorbachev to tear down that wall and Mr. Gorbachev complied, Kudos to him as well.


But now we have a new President who wants to build a new wall, OK, at a different place, but who protects us from Trump making a deal with Putin?

Next, the so called "refugees". That is a European Problem where Europe (sans Sweden) left us prettyx much alone.
Do you really believe that, without the Schengen Zone,the so called refugess would have stopped at the border crossings, waiting patiently until the inspector calles them to the desk for the interview? Germany's doors where not open, the Greek and Italian doors stood wide open and with or without Schengen, These People would , better did, cross the "green" border. This was an unstoppable Stampede and after all, there is something called humanity as well. .

Which, unfortuanely many of them abused, as we knwo now. The abuse has turned public opinion aroun a bit but still. We help Greece and Italy to get a control of thes ituation, the Dublin treaty is back in force and you can safely add the costs of having the flow of refugees under control to the Military expenses. That will put us pretty Close to what is a desirbale percentage of the GNP.

Mrs. Merkel has a very convincing way to make her Point and she has won the respect of 2 US Presidents. She has bitten dozens of in Party rivals who agreed that running a high flying law firm is much better than wanting to become Chancellor. I think that Trump won't even realize how she will grab him by the balls, to use his speech, slightly modified.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:33 pm

PanHAM wrote:
@KLDC10 - such figures are relative, Germany has a high GDP, hence we pay a lot in real Money, we have our Forces stationed outside in such lovely places like Afghanistan and Mali. just Afghanistan has cost the European Tax payer 17 Billion € over the past ecade.
We have dismantled and scrapped a whole, highly armed army air force and navy some 245 years ago, the highly aggressive NVA of former east Germany. What Germany has today is less than what we had before 1989 alone, not speaking of the East German Forces.
We simply ran out of enemies, so why not allow us a peace dividend. Most Germans, me for cetain, are eternally grateful to Pres. Reagan who told Mr. Gorbachev to tear down that wall and Mr. Gorbachev complied, Kudos to him as well.


You're right, in real money, Germany pays more than other countries. However, that is why the system is fair (in theory) - larger and more prosperous countries which have a larger GDP pay more in real money, but in terms of percentages, the bill is equal. This is the basis of NATO spending targets and I think that that is very fair. Sure, Germany may spend more actual money than a smaller country like Estonia, but helping Estonia is also in Germany's interests. The system of shared responsibility means that those who are able to take more responsibility do.


PanHAM wrote:
But now we have a new President who wants to build a new wall, OK, at a different place, but who protects us from Trump making a deal with Putin?


Trump has assembled a diverse (in terms of opinion) cabinet. Negotiations with Putin will not be undertaken lightly, and there's no way that Trump is going to surrender American interests. And a lot of American interests are shared European interests.

PanHAM wrote:
Next, the so called "refugees". That is a European Problem where Europe (sans Sweden) left us prettyx much alone.
Do you really believe that, without the Schengen Zone,the so called refugess would have stopped at the border crossings, waiting patiently until the inspector calles them to the desk for the interview? Germany's doors where not open, the Greek and Italian doors stood wide open and with or without Schengen, These People would , better did, cross the "green" border. This was an unstoppable Stampede and after all, there is something called humanity as well.


I believe that it would have been much more difficult for them to move freely between countries, yes. Take for example the Berlin attacker - he was able to cross multiple European countries without once passing a border checkpoint before eventually being shot in Italy. To me, that is incredibly concerning. Germany's doors were opened as soon as Merkel ordered them open. I agree that Greece and Italy should have done more (and Greece has a large Navy, so I'm not quite sure what their excuse is for not patrolling the Mediterranean more effectively), but this exodus was predictable and could have been prevented with safe zones. Simply allowing hundreds of thousands of people to enter Germany is not a solution. But perhaps you are able (being German) to answer a question about the long term situation? Will the migrants be allowed to stay in Germany after a few years, or does Mrs Merkel expect them to return to Syria? It seems like it would be hard for Syria to rebuild in any meaningful way with much of their population elsewhere.

PanHAM wrote:
Mrs. Merkel has a very convincing way to make her Point and she has won the respect of 2 US Presidents. She has bitten dozens of in Party rivals who agreed that running a flying law firm is much better than wanting to become Chancellor. I think that Trump won't even realize how she will grab him by the balls, to use his speech, slightly modified.


Aside from the Migrant issue, I agree that she has been an effective leader. However, I can't help but feel that her position has been weakened, both by the Migrant Crisis and Brexit. I suspect it will be weakened further later this year, because the top two candidates in the French Presidential Election (Francois Fillon and Marine Le Pen) have been racing to outdo each other on the subject of migrants, and both desire closer links with Russia.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3614
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:51 pm

PanHAM wrote:
But now we have a new President who wants to build a new wall, OK, at a different place, but who protects us from Trump making a deal with Putin?


It's fun seeing you Germans being overly hysterical about Putin when here in Finland thinks are still pretty chill, although we share a long border with Russia. Get real.

PanHAM wrote:
Do you really believe that, without the Schengen Zone,the so called refugess would have stopped at the border crossings, waiting patiently until the inspector calles them to the desk for the interview? Germany's doors where not open, the Greek and Italian doors stood wide open and with or without Schengen, These People would , better did, cross the "green" border. This was an unstoppable Stampede and after all, there is something called humanity as well. .


If I try to cross the border to let's say Russia and get caught I will be captured by local officials and put into jail, and eventually returned back to Finland. There was nothing unstoppable about the refugee crisis, if each refugee caught had been deported back to where he/she boarded the ship the whole phenomenon would have quickly stopped. There's no point paying smugglers a lot of money and risking your life if your chances of getting deported after that are high.

No, the fact is European countries created the refugee crisis by taking in everybody who had enough money to cross the Mediterranean illegally. The promise of automatic asylum seeker status, and real likelihood of being able to stay, are what created the business for smugglers.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Hillis
Posts: 1307
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Simply another sign that Russia has so much on this guy that he'll do whatever Putin tells him to do.

He's basically setting up Ukraine and The Baltics to be over-run by Russia again, all the while he'll have his thumb up his ass.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12256
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:27 pm

pvjin wrote:
If I try to cross the border to let's say Russia and get caught I will be captured by local officials and put into jail, and eventually returned back to Finland. There was nothing unstoppable about the refugee crisis, if each refugee caught had been deported back to where he/she boarded the ship the whole phenomenon would have quickly stopped. There's no point paying smugglers a lot of money and risking your life if your chances of getting deported after that are high.

No, the fact is European countries created the refugee crisis by taking in everybody who had enough money to cross the Mediterranean illegally. The promise of automatic asylum seeker status, and real likelihood of being able to stay, are what created the business for smugglers.


France, Greece and Italy have special forces, stopping the smugglers boats before leaving port would be the most effective solution, another solution would be a blockade of North African smugglers ports, the US managed to blockade Cuba for decades how difficult would it be for the EU to do the same to North Africa? Taking away all hope for these people to get to Europe is the only way to go about it.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:34 pm

KLDC10 - you misunderstood what I said about Schengen. We discussed the Invasion of illegal immigrants Europe experienced last year. They would have come with or without Schengen, they simply overran the borders. not giving a damn about border control. The Balkan contries had to build razor wire fences and that did not help. I sometimes have the feelin that the whole matter is not understood. Again, the immigrants over ran borders on the Balkan which were non Schengen and the Austrian/German border was closed with the effect that normal citizens had to add 2 hours to their daily commuting from A to d or vv and 100 meters from the control Posts the immigrants went over the green border.

The fact that the Berlin attacker Amri could go from Berlin to Milan crossing 4 countries does not worry me at all. The System works, he was apprehended in Milan and shot. Schengen means that the border controls are abolished, not the controls. When you go from NL to CH on the A3 you may be controlled 300 km downwards near Wiesbaden. German customs does that every day. I assume that the same happens near Utrecht or so when you go from d to NL
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:42 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
pvjin wrote:

France, Greece and Italy have special forces, stopping the smugglers boats before leaving port would be the most effective solution, another solution would be a blockade of North African smugglers ports, the US managed to blockade Cuba for decades how difficult would it be for the EU to do the same to North Africa? Taking away all hope for these people to get to Europe is the only way to go about it.


It seems to be difficult to understand that the EU interacts. Germany is there as well with own Equipment and Forces and the command rotates between the countries. It may be that a Frech officer commands German ships and vice versa.

But the EU Forces cannot go into Libyan territorial Waters. Politics is going that path, turning around the boats but when they pull the stopper and that bloody Thing starts sinking the rescue peration must start. Watching. them drown would get the commaning officers on Trial. It is a political matter and the Goal is to set up campsin North Africa where immigrants can apply for legal entry.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:07 pm

Germany could not keep the refugees out, because they were already in, simply because Greece, Italy and the Balkan states allowed them to pass freely and unregulated towards central Europe. The first time Germany had actual control was at the German border. Imho Merkel made the right decision, because those who came here to attach us, would have crossed illegally and stayed hidden, while we would have seen a humanitarian catastrophe with refugees crossing the Alps in winter on secondary roads or food paths. At least Germany was the first country which tried to bring order in the flood of refugees.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:25 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Aside from the Migrant issue...


Refugees in the EU periphery would have bombed to no end.
( Policy was refugees have to apply for asylum in their country of entry.
That hits those countries that have financial and infrastructure problems already.)

And that was the intention of funneling these into the EU by way of
carefully placed incentives ( who bankrolled this? ).

Merkel has nicely defanged this with her "you are welcome" policy.
We have the resources, the money and the bleeding hearts to manage this.

The terrorism incidence from asylum seekers is extremely low in scope of the
numbers of refugees inducted. And just like in France, terrorist here, though they try to
appear as refugees by traveling on their path, come from a different
environment and seem to invariably have a history of petty crime.
( The counter move obviously is the AfD and general arsonry on accomodations,
things like Kölner Sylvesternacht helpfully brought by media into the right perspective.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12256
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:53 pm

PanHAM wrote:

But the EU Forces cannot go into Libyan territorial Waters. Politics is going that path, turning around the boats but when they pull the stopper and that bloody Thing starts sinking the rescue peration must start. Watching. them drown would get the commaning officers on Trial. It is a political matter and the Goal is to set up campsin North Africa where immigrants can apply for legal entry.


Of course they could go into Libyan territorian waters and sink smugglers boats, that's the kind of job special forces do, besides there isn't really a govt in Libya to stop them, the US and NATO saw to that a few years back.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:57 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Of course they could go into Libyan territorian waters and sink smugglers boats, that's the kind of job special forces do, besides there isn't really a govt in Libya to stop them, the US and NATO saw to that a few years back.



No jurisdiction beyond your territorial waters. You mix that up with cowboys from some redneck area ( and those can't swim).
Murphy is an optimist
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3054
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:39 pm

PanHAM wrote:
Seriously, I mean that. NATO was existant Long before the EU. The wars in AfghanistanLibya and the Balkans are home made and not sparked by NATO. One can discuss whether the NATO ocuntries should get involved in establishing peace on those regions but then we can discuss also if and why there should be Police or fire brigades. Most of These wars BTW are sparked by an aggressive and expanding Religion. Not by Generals who cannot act without a parliamentary Mandate in most NATO countries.


NATO came into existance in 1949, the EU in 1958. 9 years isn't "long before".

The wars in Afghanistan and Libya were absolutely caused by the hawks in NATO and the Pentagon. Even if there were aggressive and expanding religions in those places, they weren't a threat to Europe. Al Qaeda could have been taken out by special forces, rather than occupying the country for 10+ years. Libya wouldn't have had their civil war if the NATO hawks hadn't sparked the unrest in the first place.
The hawkish generals might not be able to act on their own, but they certainly have shown themselves capable of manipulating with the truth in order to get what they want.

BTW, your premise was that NATO was peaceful. The fact that they have been deeply involved in 3 major wars in the past 25 years shows that they clearly aren't. Dropping bombs and sending the local populace running for Europe is not the definition of peaceful, regardless of how good the reason is.

PanHAM wrote:
Withput NATO, western Europe would not be what it is today and that should serve as a role model for establishing Basic human rights so that individuals can live their lives and not get dictated by religious laws., I won't live Long enough to see that happen, agreed, but it will happen


Lol, stop drinking the NATO cool-aid. NATO has supported and cooperated with loads of dictatorships throughout it's existence. Portugal, Turkey and Greece have all been dictatorships while also being members of NATO, and NATO did NOT intervene or force them to accept basic human rights. Both Albania and Turkey are moving towards religious muslim rule.

pvjin wrote:
Trump is right, the EU has brought us nothing but misery, increased crime, terror threat and bad economic times.


Blame the weak, romanticist nationalist wussies for the problems, not the EU. It's the nationalists who prevented the EU from establishing an effective border control agency. The EU has always had to will to shut the borders and keep the immigrants out. It is the nationalists who are responsible for this mess.

KLDC10 wrote:
Those getting a free ride are the countries which do not pay their fair share. Of all NATO countries, only the US, UK, Greece, Estonia and Poland met the 2% spending target in 2016. If NATO is truly a coalition of equals, other countries need to start paying up.


Just because the US, UK, Greece, Estonia and Poland insist on throwing billions of euros at primarily greedy American defence contractors doesn't mean the rest of us should adhere to the same wasteful standards.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11849
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:09 pm

US foreign policy caused the refugee crisis. And of course Trump is ready to attack another country in the region, for no good reason.

I have difficulty following his stand on free trade, he talks about putting taxes here and there, and of making a free trade deal with the UK, so, which is it ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:20 pm

VSMUT wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Those getting a free ride are the countries which do not pay their fair share. Of all NATO countries, only the US, UK, Greece, Estonia and Poland met the 2% spending target in 2016. If NATO is truly a coalition of equals, other countries need to start paying up.


Just because the US, UK, Greece, Estonia and Poland insist on throwing billions of euros at primarily greedy American defence contractors doesn't mean the rest of us should adhere to the same wasteful standards.


Countries choose to be a part of NATO. Countries benefit from being a part of NATO. They should pay their fair share.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3054
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:29 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Countries choose to be a part of NATO. Countries benefit from being a part of NATO. They should pay their fair share.


There are 28 members of NATO. Only 6 of them agree that the defence spending sould be 2% or more. The vast majority of NATO members (and by extension, NATO itself) do not agree that 2% is a fair share.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11849
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:34 pm

To sell cars in the US German (and Asian) car manufacturers develop models that conform to local rules and US rules on top. Making these rules closer to each other (or even the same) to allow cars to be sold globally more easily was a goal of the transatlantic free trade agreement he doesn't want to happen.

A US made Chevrolet will never get sold in Europe as it would have either a market in the US but not Europe, or the opposite. German luxury brands on the other hand can have a market in both. They still have to spend a lot of money to make cars that can be sold in both markets. But luxury brands can bear the cost. Chevrolet can't.

We do get the Corvette, though ! And even the Camaro. Sales numbers are quite limited.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:57 pm

Opel (GM) and Ford sell a lot of cars in Europe. Ford builds the Focus in Germany, Russia, Argentina, Mexico and the US.
 
wingman
Posts: 3776
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:27 pm

I just finished reading a few pieces on the latest proclamations from this bloated piece of shit that we elected to be our president. I am literally dumbfounded that he is openly encouraging and suggesting the breakup of Europe. It leaves only a few viable options to describe who this man is:

1. The dumbest and most destructive person to ever be elected to the White House
2. A traitor with direct links to Vladimir Putin
3. A sexual deviant and predator being blackmailed by Vladimir Putin to grant full invasion rights to Eastern Europe, maybe even a bit more than that

Whatever the case there is no doubt in my mind that if he continues to openly advocate for the breakup of Europe he will be assassinated by either CIA or Pentagon operatives.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:59 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
salttee wrote:
alberchico wrote:
As an American taxpayer I thought you would would be ok with Trump asking NATO member states to pay up, you're footing most of the bill, Europe is getting a free ride.


Some pressure on countries to pay their fair share is absolutely in my best interests. As the French and British incursion into Libya proved, Europe does not even have the ability to overcome a two-bit dictator without US help, how do they stand up to an aggressive Putin when he walks over another border and shuts off Europe's gas, for example. Trump wants peace with Russia, that's bad. Trump wants them to pay their own way against the threat of Putin, that's horrid too, all the while, becoming dependent on his energy. They can't have it both ways.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:31 pm

WIederling wrote:
What the average "buy American buyer" buys has no market abroad.
( that covers passenger cars and small trucks. big trucks ? no idea.)
apropos: any "truly American" car model around that is offered with RHD steering?


The Mustang. Is that American enough for you?

And there are good reasons why Mercedes and BMW only offer their upscale models in this market and several Euro OEMs have been chased out. It would not make you happy to hear the reasons.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:36 pm

PanHAM wrote:
We simply ran out of enemies, so why not allow us a peace dividend. Most Germans, me for cetain, are eternally grateful to Pres. Reagan who told Mr. Gorbachev to tear down that wall and Mr. Gorbachev complied, Kudos to him as well.


And yet, Reagan was widely defiled in Germany when he stood his ground. I know because I lived there at the time. Massive demonstrations, plenty of name calling and insults hurled. One Time reporter I talked to on a train in France warned me I should not go to Germany because of the sentiment that the US and Reagan was starting armageddon.

Another factor in the equation is the amount of US blood and treasure spent on supporting and protecting Europe's oil supply.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:10 pm

Aesma wrote:
US foreign policy caused the refugee crisis. And of course Trump is ready to attack another country in the region, for no good reason.

I have difficulty following his stand on free trade, he talks about putting taxes here and there, and of making a free trade deal with the UK, so, which is it ?


I was wondering about that.
How does NAFTA fit into import duties on Mexican goods into the US?
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:16 pm

mham001 wrote:
Another factor in the equation is the amount of US blood and treasure spent on supporting and protecting Europe's oil supply.

There is no threat to Europe's oil supply. The Europeans are capable of managing their own oil supply. The US / Israeli hegemony in the ME has been the creator of problems in the ME from 1967 until today.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:16 pm

mham001 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
We simply ran out of enemies, so why not allow us a peace dividend. Most Germans, me for cetain, are eternally grateful to Pres. Reagan who told Mr. Gorbachev to tear down that wall and Mr. Gorbachev complied, Kudos to him as well.


And yet, Reagan was widely defiled in Germany when he stood his ground. I know because I lived there at the time. Massive demonstrations, plenty of name calling and insults hurled. One Time reporter I talked to on a train in France warned me I should not go to Germany because of the sentiment that the US and Reagan was starting armageddon.


Reagan was a megalomaniac a*hole.
Good actor. nothing beyond.

'Got his presidential election from illegal prepresidential activities and actively sidelining his predecessor ( also illegal. Look up Iran Contra affair.) Before that the Afghanistan trap was set by his minions to give the Russians their Vietnam. Look what blowback that brought in the long run. Invariably conservatives in the US leave a difficult to fix mess. And they later invariably attacke the (DEM) fixers without remorse.

Another factor in the equation is the amount of US blood and treasure spent on supporting and protecting Europe's oil supply.

It is not about protecting but about controlling.
Murphy is an optimist
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:42 pm

salttee wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Another factor in the equation is the amount of US blood and treasure spent on supporting and protecting Europe's oil supply.

There is no threat to Europe's oil supply. The Europeans are capable of managing their own oil supply. The US / Israeli hegemony in the ME has been the creator of problems in the ME from 1967 until today.


Cracks me up when people want to pretend history began in 1967, 1959, or 2002 or some such. As if hundreds of years of European colonialism was completely irrelevant.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:54 pm

salttee wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Another factor in the equation is the amount of US blood and treasure spent on supporting and protecting Europe's oil supply.

There is no threat to Europe's oil supply. The Europeans are capable of managing their own oil supply. The US / Israeli hegemony in the ME has been the creator of problems in the ME from 1967 until today.


No threat...huh?

The Europeans continue to become ever more dependent on foreign energy...

Image

Energy security
More than half of the EU-28’s energy comes from countries outside the EU and this proportion has been generally rising over recent decades (although there is some evidence to suggest that the dependency rate has stabilised in recent years). Much of the energy imported into the EU comes from Russia, whose disputes with transit countries have threatened to disrupt supplies in recent years. Concerns about the security of supply from Russia were further heightened by the conflict in Ukraine...........

In 2014, some 29.0 % of the EU-28’s imports of crude oil were from Russia: it became the principal supplier of solid fuels in 2006, overtaking South Africa, having overtaken Australia in 2004 and Colombia in 2002. Russia’s share of EU-28 solid fuels imports rose from 18.0 % in 2004 to 30.0 % by 2009, before falling somewhat to 25.7 % by 2012 and rebounding to 29.0 % in 2014. By contrast, Russia’s share of EU-28 imports of natural gas declined from 43.6 % to 32.1 % between 2004 and 2010, but this development was reversed with increases thereafter leading to a share of 37.5 % in 2014. Throughout the 10 years shown in Table 3, Norway remained the second largest supplier of EU imports of crude oil and natural gas.
Last edited by mham001 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ChrisKen, DarkSnowyNight, System07, tu204 and 57 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos