Pyrex
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:08 pm

VSMUT wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Countries choose to be a part of NATO. Countries benefit from being a part of NATO. They should pay their fair share.


There are 28 members of NATO. Only 6 of them agree that the defence spending sould be 2% or more. The vast majority of NATO members (and by extension, NATO itself) do not agree that 2% is a fair share.


Bullshit. Every single one of them agreed to it, when they signed the terms to become a part of NATO. They just choose to ignore their commitments. But then again, something tells me you would be similarly sympathetic to other sorts of deadbeats, so no surprise there.

The funny thing is that Hollande just came out in defense of Merkel, saying that "Europe has no need for outside advice to tell it what to do". Not sure what is more ironic, if the fact that Europe sure seemed to think the U.S. needed its advice when the U.S. was having its elections, or if by saying this he, himself, was providing outside advice to the Germans...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
salttee
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:13 pm

mham001 wrote:
Cracks me up when people want to pretend history began in 1967, 1959, or 2002 or some such. As if hundreds of years of European colonialism was completely irrelevant.

Oh sure, from post WW1 until the early sixties Britain and France were the source of problems in the ME. I've written a lot about that. But how does that change the fact that for the last 50 years the US support of Israel has been by far the major destabilizing factor in the ME?
 
mham001
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:12 am

salttee wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Cracks me up when people want to pretend history began in 1967, 1959, or 2002 or some such. As if hundreds of years of European colonialism was completely irrelevant.

Oh sure, from post WW1 until the early sixties Britain and France were the source of problems in the ME. I've written a lot about that. But how does that change the fact that for the last 50 years the US support of Israel has been by far the major destabilizing factor in the ME?


You mean that we gave Israel the support to prevent it from being pushed into the Mediterranean? Too bad.

Today however, that is not true. The primary source of destabilization is coming from the results of European colonialists dividing the region at its convenience.
 
salttee
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:21 am

mham001 wrote:
Today however, that is not true. The primary source of destabilization is coming from the results of European colonialists dividing the region at its convenience.

And the 2003 US invasion of Iraq is just a forgotten memory to you?
 
Pyrex
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:15 am

mham001 wrote:

You mean that we gave Israel the support to prevent it from being pushed into the Mediterranean? Too bad.



And let's not forget why Israel even exists in the first place. Hint - most Jews did not exactly move there voluntarily... so when the topic of Israel's right to exist comes up, all Europe should do is shut up and nod.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
mham001
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:18 am

salttee wrote:
And the 2003 US invasion of Iraq is just a forgotten memory to you?


Yes, the Sunni-Shiite rivalry all started in 2003.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:55 am

So to summarize above all comments, European countries will get back together, achieve energy independence, fight Russia, give Crimea back to Ukraine, fix all issues in ME and fix refugee issue.... All this without us getting involved or spending a dime. Look at you all grown up.

In case you guys missed, that's what Trump wants. No one will be more happy for you than Americans.
 
mham001
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:18 am

zkojq wrote:
Good point. People keep forgetting that the USA doesn't have soldiers and Airbases in Europe (or anywhere around the world, for that matter) out of altruism; they're doing it to project American power and to support American foreign policy objectives (ie containing Russia).


My god, the horror of it all. Europe would certainly not be first and most devastatingly affected by an "uncontained" Putin.

I am confused. Trump wants friendlier relations with Putin, Euros scream bloody murder about the prospect, even as they deepen their economic dependence on him. If Trump talked tough with Putin, ala Reagan. they scream bloody murder about the confrontational stance and the coming Armageddon.

WTF do you want?
 
salttee
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:44 am

mham001 wrote:
Yes, the Sunni-Shiite rivalry all started in 2003.

The "Sunni-Shiite rivalry " is not the cause of the major problems in the ME, as a matter of fact the Sunni-Shiite division used to be a check on both Sunni and Shiite militarism.
Until the PNAC talked Bush into upsetting that balance.
Now look at what we have there.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:35 am

The orange menace is friendly with Russia, talking nice things about Russia and Putin and how great Russia and Putin are but we are supposed to believe he was not installed by Putin? riiiiiight....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:31 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
So to summarize above all comments, European countries will get back together, achieve energy independence, fight Russia, give Crimea back to Ukraine, fix all issues in ME and fix refugee issue.... All this without us getting involved or spending a dime. Look at you all grown up.

In case you guys missed, that's what Trump wants. No one will be more happy for you than Americans.


Some of these things will not happen. But the US or Trump are not going to help either way. Just like Europe will not play a role in the Mexican wall matter.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:07 am

mham001 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Good point. People keep forgetting that the USA doesn't have soldiers and Airbases in Europe (or anywhere around the world, for that matter) out of altruism; they're doing it to project American power and to support American foreign policy objectives (ie containing Russia).


My god, the horror of it all. Europe would certainly not be first and most devastatingly affected by an "uncontained" Putin.

I am confused. Trump wants friendlier relations with Putin, Euros scream bloody murder about the prospect, even as they deepen their economic dependence on him. If Trump talked tough with Putin, ala Reagan. they scream bloody murder about the confrontational stance and the coming Armageddon.

WTF do you want?


Most Europeans also want better relations with Russia. Putin is quite popular in Europe. It is just the weak governments who fear him.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:03 am

mham001 wrote:
salttee wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Another factor in the equation is the amount of US blood and treasure spent on supporting and protecting Europe's oil supply.

There is no threat to Europe's oil supply. The Europeans are capable of managing their own oil supply. The US / Israeli hegemony in the ME has been the creator of problems in the ME from 1967 until today.


Cracks me up when people want to pretend history began in 1967, 1959, or 2002 or some such. As if hundreds of years of European colonialism was completely irrelevant.


What hundreds of years of colonialism would that be, most of the countries you're thinking about were part of the Ottoman Empire up until it disolved after WW1. The biggest mistake in the Middle East was the creation of Israel, in hindsight we never would have done it had we known the problems it's creation along with failed US policies would have brought today.
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:53 am

mham001 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Good point. People keep forgetting that the USA doesn't have soldiers and Airbases in Europe (or anywhere around the world, for that matter) out of altruism; they're doing it to project American power and to support American foreign policy objectives (ie containing Russia).


My god, the horror of it all. Europe would certainly not be first and most devastatingly affected by an "uncontained" Putin.

I am confused. Trump wants friendlier relations with Putin, Euros scream bloody murder about the prospect, even as they deepen their economic dependence on him. If Trump talked tough with Putin, ala Reagan. they scream bloody murder about the confrontational stance and the coming Armageddon.

WTF do you want?


The hell you asking rhetorical questions for? Western Europe wants to continue mooching off of the US taxpayer which has funded the peace and prosperity that everyone from Lisbon to Berlin enjoys. As a thank you, you get a hilarious attempt at creating a quasi-socialist utopia which is running on borrowed time and the excellent idea by the ever peaceful Germans to invite millions of unchecked people that have no intention on following all if any of the rules of a modern civilization. You could eliminate borders tomrrow from El Paso down to Ushuaia and it wouldnt be 1/10th of the existential problem that the Germans (and Swedish) have created.

I laugh at the fact someone on here suggested what else can you do. Is this a joke? You can start by sinking boats before they even have a chance to get out of 6ft water near the shore. You were showed up by the Hungarians, the Hungarians for the love of god, who in a matter of weeks stopped this nonsense while you did nothing. I suggest you call them up and get their help on helping you open the airport in your own governments backyard as well. Youd do well and save a few hundred million Euros.

If I was a German I would shut my mouth and not murmur as much as a peep on the topic of security in Europe. 900+ years of nothing but wars designed to destroy and kill everyone east of the Oder and west of the Dnieper and then you play everyone for a bunch of fools with the EU from Tallinn down to Sofia as you offer seed money to the desperate countries you destroyed a few decades ago in turn for drawing cheap labor and goods (along with the Russians you conspired with). Last I checked my history book shows countries being wiped off the map for decades and sometimes centuries not because some Republican in the US was voted in but because you were the ones who struck secret and not so secret deals to divy up the map, and you sure as crap didnt do it with the Americans but with the Russians. Color me shocked when the democrats side with this logic, 70 years ago one of them handed out countries that you helped to wipe out just a few years back like candy to the Soviets. Now, after the US taxpayer pumped in a mountain of money and had to reteach you lot how to stop punching others in the face for no reason you go in and screw it up for the rest of us by literally inviting in people on TV that want to take out what peace we have and then blame the US when they're pointing out the obvious. Is it really that hard to figure out that people wouldn't be half as pissed if it weren't for the fact you were only screwing up your own country but you've had to go on and make it a security nightmare for everyone. The French are almost as complicit in this matter which makes it even worse. At the same time you build up pipelines with the Russians, buy more of their gas and oil becoming addicted to their energy while you tell the rest of us how to take them on. Hilarious.

If you happen to be in Berlin and anyone to the west you need to stop crying for the US to disengage and then when it happens you go crying right back because you cant do any sort of preventative action. Forget about Libya, which at a few hundred miles was a pathetic example of what happens when US logistical support is not called in. Go back a few more years to the Balkans where nation after nation of geniuses that to this day only assigns 1-1.2% of their GDP to the armed forces were crapping their pants in a barn while mass murder was being committed. Thats 20 or so years of continued conflict right in your backyard that you couldnt even stop without the need of calling bombing sorties from Missouri. Pathetic.

To save the best for last. Putin has not outmaneuvered Obama, he flat out steamrolled right through him. Unless Trump pastes the Nuke codes on TV I dont see how it can possibly get any worse. Any attempt for a counterargument that Obama would not let Putin have another piece of Ukraine or Georgia is a nonstarter for me. The Russians unless met with force and someone pounding a fist on the table wont give a flying screwball if Obama says no, and why should they because the US would never send in troops or actively defend a peripheral nation east of NATO from the Russians regardless if he, Trump, Hillary or Bush are/were in office. The best part about is, all you have to do to win with the Russians is to bankrupt them just like you did in the 80s. The sudden rise of domestic drilling has had the fantastic effect of taking out 2 birds with 1 stone, Russia and anyone else who is an oil producing theocracy. Instead of actively promoting something that could bring them down without a shot fired and bring relief to the US economy we have a bunch of actors running around the Dakotas like chickens with their heads cut off protesting one of the safest forms of transporting crude oil from one place to the other.
Last edited by LOT767301ER on Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
cpd
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:58 am

I hope he does do a nuclear deal with Russia. Deal openly, but secretly build 500MT warheads and weapons to deliver them.

Why not? It's the Russian government way of doing deals. Say one thing, do something else totally different.
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:19 am

mham001 wrote:
salttee wrote:
And the 2003 US invasion of Iraq is just a forgotten memory to you?


Yes, the Sunni-Shiite rivalry all started in 2003.


It is old.

But they did not really go into a festering conflict before the US started to favor sides.
( biggest misdeed: supporting Wahabism.)
A lot of effort has been spent in recent times to bring the (existing) tensions to a good boil.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:22 am

cpd wrote:
It's the Russian government way of doing deals. Say one thing, do something else totally different.


Have they learned enough from the US ( on how to do backstabbing politics.) ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
PanHAM
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:30 am

@LOT767301ER - no, I haven't read the full Story you wrote here and I don't Need to. No, neither Germany nor any other Country that is ruled by the law can sink boats with refugees. Nor can any Country ruled by the law shot People at borders. I am not happy with the Situation we had in 2015/16.
But may be I can make it better understood when I compare that to a flood, you can build Dykes but there will be floods that break the Dykes. We have , meanwhile a grip on the Situation and we will or have already changed the laws. what we cannot Change is that our government from head to the last floor sweeper must act in accordance with the laws, so please don't blame us for that and at the same time complain that there was a time when Germany did not comply with - international - law.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:48 am

LOT767301ER wrote:
Unless Trump pastes the Nuke codes on TV I dont see how it can possibly get any worse.

...and even then I am sure the Trump apologists would find some lame excuse why he has done it.

LOT767301ER wrote:
The Russians unless met with force and someone pounding a fist on the table wont give a flying screwball if Obama says no,

Obama is history. The real threat is that the Orange Clown will sign some sort of Yalta 2.0 with Putin. I don't think you particularly need further explanation what that means.
 
mham001
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:50 am

Kiwirob wrote:
the US managed to blockade Cuba for decades


The US did not blockade Cuba for decades. More like a week.

Kiwirob wrote:
What hundreds of years of colonialism would that be, .


Cuba, for one example.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:03 am

alberchico wrote:
I like the fact that he called Merkels decision to let in 1 million refugees " catastrophic" which is what it was.


One more piece of evidence that Donald has no grip on reality or in fact about what is going ob.

I like his idea about safe areas in Syria. I would really like to know how he is going to have those without going to fullscale war with his beloved Rodina. They don´t really accept western rules about who they can bomb.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:10 am

To be honest the Hungarians did nothing. What they did was make sure that people moved on. The border only closed once the other countries wanted them to take their share of people back. The German border opened to a large extent because thousands of people were sitting in the train station at Budapest trying to catch a train to Austria and German and the situation was spinning out of control, with people suffocating by the dozens in trucks used to smuggle them into Germany,
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:21 am

PanHAM wrote:
@LOT767301ER - no, I haven't read the full Story you wrote here and I don't Need to. No, neither Germany nor any other Country that is ruled by the law can sink boats with refugees. Nor can any Country ruled by the law shot People at borders. I am not happy with the Situation we had in 2015/16.
But may be I can make it better understood when I compare that to a flood, you can build Dykes but there will be floods that break the Dykes. We have , meanwhile a grip on the Situation and we will or have already changed the laws. what we cannot Change is that our government from head to the last floor sweeper must act in accordance with the laws, so please don't blame us for that and at the same time complain that there was a time when Germany did not comply with - international - law.


We have a grip on the current situation, there's no reason to say Turkey won't decide to open the floodgates again this coming summer. And you don't have a grip on the vessels sailing from North Africa.

Sometimes for the benefit of everyone laws should be put aside, sinking a few boats and leaving the survivors to there own devices would send out a pretty strong message that you're not welcome so don't try it.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:53 am

pvjin wrote:
Kaliningrad is nothing compared to growing immigrant ghettos in many large cities of EU countries. Unless EU's migration policies change radically you'll see many European countries becoming worse and worse as their native populations continue to shrink in favour of poorly integrated Muslim migrants and their descendants.


Ridiculous comment. The EU has a long way to sink before it gets even close to being comparable to shitholes like Kaliningrad.

KLDC10 wrote:
I believe that it would have been much more difficult for them to move freely between countries, yes. Take for example the Berlin attacker - he was able to cross multiple European countries without once passing a border checkpoint before eventually being shot in Italy. To me, that is incredibly concerning.

National borders are somewhat arbitrary in this context though. If the attacker done the attack in New York, he could have driven to Florida/California without crossing a national border checkpoint. If the attack had been done in Perth, he could have driven to Surfers Paradise with similar ease. Just depends on the size of the country he does the attack in.

pvjin wrote:
It's fun seeing you Germans being overly hysterical about Putin when here in Finland thinks are still pretty chill, although we share a long border with Russia. Get real.

So you speak for all Finns? Most Finns on this forum seem to project a substantially different worldview than you're own...

Hillis wrote:
He's basically setting up Ukraine and The Baltics to be over-run by Russia again, all the while he'll have his thumb up his ass.

This is what has me worried. I don't particularly care what Trump does to America, since it was them who elected him, but unfortunately his election looks like it will have consequences for people living thousands of kilometers away from the nearest american ballot box.

WIederling wrote:
Reagan was a megalomaniac a*hole.
Good actor. nothing beyond.


Good at selling cigarettes though, IIRC.

mham001 wrote:
As the French and British incursion into Libya proved, Europe does not even have the ability to overcome a two-bit dictator without US help.

Funny how whenever it comes apportioning blame for Libya, it's always UK + France's fault.... ;)

seahawk wrote:
Most Europeans also want better relations with Russia. Putin is quite popular in Europe. It is just the weak governments who fear him.

Image
Image

Europeans, whom the Kremlin would like to consider deluded U.S. followers, are often even more negative about Russia than Americans are -- and that's not just Poles, more exposed than others to the conflict in Ukraine, but also previously Russia-friendly Germans and French.


https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... s-it-back-

mham001 wrote:
salttee wrote:
And the 2003 US invasion of Iraq is just a forgotten memory to you?


Yes, the Sunni-Shiite rivalry all started in 2003.

Ah, that classic sense of personal responsibility that can only come from an American conservative; the invasion's irrelevant because Sunnis and Shiites don't like each other!

mham001 wrote:
My god, the horror of it all. Europe would certainly not be first and most devastatingly affected by an "uncontained" Putin.

I am confused. Trump wants friendlier relations with Putin, Euros scream bloody murder about the prospect, even as they deepen their economic dependence on him. If Trump talked tough with Putin, ala Reagan. they scream bloody murder about the confrontational stance and the coming Armageddon.

WTF do you want?

Yup, those EU sanctions are really great for the Russian economy.

LOT767301ER wrote:
The hell you asking rhetorical questions for? Western Europe wants to continue mooching off of the US taxpayer which has funded the peace and prosperity that everyone from Lisbon to Berlin enjoys. As a thank you, you get a hilarious attempt at creating a quasi-socialist utopia which is running on borrowed time and the excellent idea by the ever peaceful Germans to invite millions of unchecked people that have no intention on following all if any of the rules of a modern civilization.


Image
You salty, bro?

L410Turbolet wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
Unless Trump pastes the Nuke codes on TV I dont see how it can possibly get any worse.

...and even then I am sure the Trump apologists would find some lame excuse why he has done it.

:rotfl: Sad but true. In fairness, you can't expect them to appreciate the implications (geopolitical or otherwise) of an intercontinental ballistic missile being used. Afterall, intercontinental sortof implies that there's a world beyond america's borders!

Kiwirob wrote:
Sometimes for the benefit of everyone laws should be put aside, sinking a few boats and leaving the survivors to there own devices would send out a pretty strong message that you're not welcome so don't try it.

What's the point of laws if you can put them aside when they're inconvenient? Especially important stuff, like the Geneva Conventionetc. If everyone breaks them when they're a bit inconvenient then soon noone will ever follow them.
First to fly the 787-9
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:58 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
The hell you asking rhetorical questions for? Western Europe wants to continue mooching off of the US taxpayer which has funded the peace and prosperity that everyone from Lisbon to Berlin enjoys


I think we should start charging for using our bases, airspace and stop paying the US for having US troops here.

As a thank you, you get a hilarious attempt at creating a quasi-socialist utopia which is running on borrowed time and the excellent idea by the ever peaceful Germans to invite millions of unchecked people that have no intention on following all if any of the rules of a modern civilization.


Did you know that Syrian Refugees have proven themselves more law abiding than natural born Germans? Which puts them ahead of most Europeans.

You could eliminate borders tomrrow from El Paso down to Ushuaia and it wouldnt be 1/10th of the existential problem that the Germans (and Swedish) have created.


People and their fantasy problems....
The UK and Irland, mind you the UK with their own border control, are the most criminal countries in Europe. Sweden or Germany on the other hand are not.... they are just where Poland ist for example, that has the lowest number of foreigners living there of all EU nations...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
VSMUT
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:54 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Bullshit. Every single one of them agreed to it, when they signed the terms to become a part of NATO. They just choose to ignore their commitments.


Times change, as do governments. The 2% requirement is clearly outdated, and the majority of NATO members don't agree with it. Ultimately, national decisions outweigh NATO.

Pyrex wrote:
But then again, something tells me you would be similarly sympathetic to other sorts of deadbeats, so no surprise there.


"Bla bla bla, I am Pyrex and I always hated the EU but I have run out of arguments so now I make a personal attack by calling him out for being sympathetic to deadbeats, whatever that vague statement means"
 
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pvjin
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:21 pm

zkojq wrote:
Ridiculous comment. The EU has a long way to sink before it gets even close to being comparable to shitholes like Kaliningrad.


Most large Western European cities are already shitholes.

So you speak for all Finns? Most Finns on this forum seem to project a substantially different worldview than you're own...


The majority of Finns still oppose the idea of joining NATO despite all the pro NATO and anti-Russian propaganda on the media.

Tell me, why there are no sanctions against the US despite the fact its actions brought us ISIS, and have advanced the chaos in Libya and Syria through support to Islamists in those countries?

Why should I oppose Russia and support the US & it's European puppets when the facts are these?:

1. 30k refugees came to Finland during 2015, wasting over billion euros of tax payer money.

Brought by: US invasion of Iraq in 2003, and later its support to Islamist rebels in Libya and Syria.

2. Hard economic times

Brought by euro which is simply too strong for most EU nations except Germany, and by anti-Russian sanctions installed by the US and its allies. Yes, Russia did invade Crimea and other parts of Eastern Ukraine, but I see nothing wrong in that as the majority of the population in those areas wants to belong to Russia.

3. More crime

Due to 1. & freedom of movement in the Schengen area Finland isn't as safe as it used to be. Brought by the EU.

4. EU's failure to deliver its promises

EU was all about "freedom of movement". I call BS on that, thanks to new directives I can't even order booze and cigars online legally.

5. Messages about cookies

Due to stupid, useless EU regulation every EU citizen has to accept irrelevant notifications about sites using cookies. I know most sites track me through cookies, you don't have to tell it to me every single time I visit a new site for God's sake!
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Hillis
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:45 pm

Part of any deal will be that Putin will get free reign in the Crimea, Ukraine and The Baltics. Never mind the latter 3 are part of NATO, Trump will sell them down the river.

Putin isn't going to give up nukes simply to end sanctions. He'll want something big in return, and that will be what I mentioned. It will also mean the U.S. staying out of Russia's way in Syira as well. And, of course, for Trump, it'll mean selling out U.S. interests so he and his greedy kids can make millions while Russia runs over other nations.
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:58 pm

Hillis wrote:
It will also mean the U.S. staying out of Russia's way in Syira as well.



The US has shown repeatedly that it is incompetent/incapable of achieving self set tasks as announced .
They better keep out of it.

Actually it is much worse: independent of what the US announces the chaos they achieve is what they really want.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Hillis
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:02 pm

WIederling wrote:
Hillis wrote:
It will also mean the U.S. staying out of Russia's way in Syira as well.



The US has shown repeatedly that it is incompetent/incapable of achieving self set tasks as announced .
They better keep out of it.

Actually it is much worse: independent of what the US announces the chaos they achieve is what they really want.


And I suppose Russia is there because of the goodness of their hearts? I don't believe the U.S. is as pure as the driven snow, but I don't believe the U.S. wants the kind of chaos you're alluding to. I do think Russia does, however.
 
mham001
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:03 pm

pvjin wrote:
Tell me, why there are no sanctions against the US despite the fact its actions brought us ISIS, and have advanced the chaos in Libya and Syria through support to Islamists in those countries?


Because you run up against the uncomfortable truth that Europeans led the charge in Libya?
 
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lugie
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:57 pm

mham001 wrote:
My god, the horror of it all. Europe would certainly not be first and most devastatingly affected by an "uncontained" Putin.

I am confused. Trump wants friendlier relations with Putin, Euros scream bloody murder about the prospect, even as they deepen their economic dependence on him. If Trump talked tough with Putin, ala Reagan. they scream bloody murder about the confrontational stance and the coming Armageddon.

WTF do you want?


There's more than "21st century McCarthyism" and "being so far up Putin's ass that he might steamroll eastern Europe without Trump batting an eye" and Yeah you are probably right, Europeans want neither of those two extremes but
a) Obama's course has been far from the former
b) Europe doesn't need better relations for the sake of better relations and at the cost of risking member states' territorial integrity.
If Putin thinks it's his mission to turn Russia into a totalitarian regime the size of the USSR there is absolutely no reason for Europeans to give up their own values to help him fulfil that.
And I'm not advocating a nuclear arms race 2.0 (see above: No one wants McCarthyism) but anyone who thinks we should give up economic sanctions because they hurt us is out of their mind. After all Russia is a nation with the economic power and population roughly the size of Nigeria.
All they build their self-understanding on is sheer size and military force. Heck if Russia cuts off fossil fuel supplies we can even get our oil from Nigeria...

seahawk wrote:
Most Europeans also want better relations with Russia. Putin is quite popular in Europe. It is just the weak governments who fear him.


Putin is actually not popular at all. Putin is synonymous with madness.
It's just that the minority to whom he's popular is a very, very vocal one. Loud agitation from both ends of the political spectrum distorts the image. (in Germany his biggest fans come from the far-left Die Linke and far-right AfD, both parties that receive Russian sponsoring...)
DH4 E75 E90 CR9 CRK M88 319 320 321 332 333 359 733 73G 738 739 748 764 772 77W 788
X3 LH 4U TP US SN EI FR IB LX LA CM UA DL AA AS WN AC
FRA STR HAM TXL MUC ZRH ACE BRU BLL DUB MAN ARN MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT EWR ORD ATL SFO MDW YYZ SJO PTY
 
ozglobal
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:17 pm

The White House has been handed to Vladimir Putin in a bloodless coup, won at the ballot box. Everything Putin wants, every position he expresses is mouthed almost verbatim by his faux businessman lapdog. He must really have Trump with something. At this rate, he will allow Putin to annex all of Europe and see this as some kind of neat global equilibrium; something of a 'deal.'

Who will educate this man? Not his administration of nihilistic extremists. Where do we go from here?

We will potentially see ushered in a new Dark Ages, the thin veneer of civilisation compromised and the dark underbelly of the beast in full view.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:04 am

mham001 wrote:
Because you run up against the uncomfortable truth that Europeans led the charge in Libya?


Good point, Western European rogue states should start embargoing themselves.

ozglobal wrote:
At this rate, he will allow Putin to annex all of Europe and see this as some kind of neat global equilibrium; something of a 'deal.'


I hope so, then we Europeans would finally have less incompetent of a leader.

ozglobal wrote:
We will potentially see ushered in a new Dark Ages, the thin veneer of civilisation compromised and the dark underbelly of the beast in full view.


I see happier times coming when western liberal degeneracy will become a thing of the past. Whether the change will be brought by alt-right and Russia, or by Islamists imported by the liberal progressives, that remains to be seen. But conservatism and patriarchal values will once again prevail, that's absolutely clear.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:45 am

pvjin : can you tell us what Russia brings to the world ?

We're communicating on computers through internet. Has Russia had any part in making that happen ? Its gas powering some power plants I guess.

The USSR was great in a few areas (space) but aside from that everything was crap.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
salttee
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:51 am

Aesma wrote:
The USSR was great in a few areas (space) but aside from that everything was crap.

To be fair they did churn out some pretty good ballet dancers like Baryshnikov and the Panovs.

But then they defected, so that fucks that up pretty much.
They haven't been very good at cars.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:02 am

Aesma wrote:
The USSR was great in a few areas (space) but aside from that everything was crap.


*is* crap. They can not manufacture anything the world market wants to buy. They can´t even manufacture what Russians want. They can´t even make enough booze for their own drunks.

Russia Exports:
Image

Russia Imports:
Image

Russia, with its enormous riches in Resources, human and otherwise, is effectively an enormous waste of space that even Trump could probably govern more effective than Putin.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
ozglobal
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:12 am

pvjin wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Because you run up against the uncomfortable truth that Europeans led the charge in Libya?


Good point, Western European rogue states should start embargoing themselves.

ozglobal wrote:
At this rate, he will allow Putin to annex all of Europe and see this as some kind of neat global equilibrium; something of a 'deal.'


I hope so, then we Europeans would finally have less incompetent of a leader.

ozglobal wrote:
We will potentially see ushered in a new Dark Ages, the thin veneer of civilisation compromised and the dark underbelly of the beast in full view.


I see happier times coming when western liberal degeneracy will become a thing of the past. Whether the change will be brought by alt-right and Russia, or by Islamists imported by the liberal progressives, that remains to be seen. But conservatism and patriarchal values will once again prevail, that's absolutely clear.


I see. We really should learn how to run a gangster bully state like Russia where a leader is so strong he has to make 300 journalists disappear. How's that Russian economy working for you? In the toilet last time I checked.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:31 am

ozglobal wrote:
How's that Russian economy working for you? In the toilet last time I checked.


That is why he needed to have Trump in the White House. Burn baby, burn. If the USA embarked onto the renewable energy train in earnest along with everybody else, Russia is quite simply finished.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:40 pm

mham001 wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Tell me, why there are no sanctions against the US despite the fact its actions brought us ISIS, and have advanced the chaos in Libya and Syria through support to Islamists in those countries?


Because you run up against the uncomfortable truth that Europeans led the charge in Libya?


That was a metooism for to catwalk Euro Mil Hardware and some Egos too big to fit in a shoe box.

Who managed the dissolution of Libya and bankrolled this.
Actually: who wrote the scripts for the Arabic Spring movements?
( For Syria the bite taken was much too big due to public support for the Assad Family being staunch.)

Probably the same idiots that wrote those for the Color Revolutions some years earlier.

What I do wonder is was "Die Wende" the first where such an upheaval was orchestrated
or was it an indigenous move that was later used as not well understood template
to kick of other regime changes. My guess : template only.

Obvious who would go for that: the US is the only force
demanding regime change in all the right places.
Murphy is an optimist
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:54 pm

What I do wonder is was "Die Wende" the first where such an upheaval was orchestrated
or was it an indigenous move that was later used as not well understood template
to kick of other regime changes. My guess : template only.


Still wailing crocodille tears over Honecker's police state, I see.
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:22 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
What I do wonder is was "Die Wende" the first where such an upheaval was orchestrated
or was it an indigenous move that was later used as not well understood template
to kick of other regime changes. My guess : template only.


Still wailing crocodille tears over Honecker's police state, I see.


Oh, sure as you say man and reading comprehension marginal.

"Die Wende" worked rather well, there was a rush of neocolonialism from West German "Glücksritter"
but nonetheless the result was rather good.

Any of the following "Volksbewegten" regime changes fizzled, foundered or have turned
into festering failed states void of any future recuperation.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:08 pm

You can´t compare those. The Eastern European states and societies were mostly ready for Democracy and even the communist regimes were progressive and liberal by Arab or North African standards. Yugoslavia showed that it also did not work out, when the society was not ready. They were ready for democracy but Yugoslavia as state was not, as only the dictator was the glue holding this state together. Then the same was tried in states were society in general was much less open, where the hate between ethnic or religious group was running much deeper and where the state was much less mature. The West thought Arab Spring was about freedom and democracy, while it was about different groups in those countries trying to climb to power and replacing the old groups in power. Neither side wanted to share power.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:28 pm

seahawk wrote:
The West thought Arab Spring was about freedom and democracy, while it was about different groups in those countries trying to climb to power and replacing the old groups in power. Neither side wanted to share power.


Poppycock.

What I noted was that the outspoken facebook and twitter connected groups that seemed to push and manage the movements
whose members invariably gave english interviews at C2 going to native speaker level and usually bearing _english language_ placards/posters completely vanished after the nation colapsed. 5th column comes to mind.

What remained was a fragmented arrangement of power groups, armed imported terrorists and rabble.
Murphy is an optimist
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The USSR was great in a few areas (space) but aside from that everything was crap.


*is* crap. They can not manufacture anything the world market wants to buy. They can´t even manufacture what Russians want. They can´t even make enough booze for their own drunks.

Russia Exports:
Image

Russia Imports:
Image

Russia, with its enormous riches in Resources, human and otherwise, is effectively an enormous waste of space that even Trump could probably govern more effective than Putin.

best regards
Thomas


And yet, in all your indefinite wisdom and hate for the man (which is not unfounded), you allow yourselves to become totally dependent on his energy.

I'm sorry, who is propping up whom?
 
LAH1
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:12 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
The hell you asking rhetorical questions for? Western Europe wants to continue mooching off of the US taxpayer which has funded the peace and prosperity that everyone from Lisbon to Berlin enjoys


I think we should start charging for using our bases, airspace and stop paying the US for having US troops here.

As a thank you, you get a hilarious attempt at creating a quasi-socialist utopia which is running on borrowed time and the excellent idea by the ever peaceful Germans to invite millions of unchecked people that have no intention on following all if any of the rules of a modern civilization.


Did you know that Syrian Refugees have proven themselves more law abiding than natural born Germans? Which puts them ahead of most Europeans.

You could eliminate borders tomrrow from El Paso down to Ushuaia and it wouldnt be 1/10th of the existential problem that the Germans (and Swedish) have created.


People and their fantasy problems....
The UK and Irland, mind you the UK with their own border control, are the most criminal countries in Europe. Sweden or Germany on the other hand are not.... they are just where Poland ist for example, that has the lowest number of foreigners living there of all EU nations...

best regards
Thomas


Perhaps a bit OT but it depends where you are and what crimes you're talking about. . For homicide later stats (2012)give this :-

Amsterdam tops the list of homicide rates in Western Europe with 4.4 murders per 100,000 people, followed by Glasgow (3.3 per 100,000), Brussels (3 per 100,000) and Prague (2.7 per 100,000). With 0.0016% of people in London being murdered, the city ranks just ahead of Canada and Serbia's largest cities.
.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:53 pm

WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The West thought Arab Spring was about freedom and democracy, while it was about different groups in those countries trying to climb to power and replacing the old groups in power. Neither side wanted to share power.


Poppycock.

What I noted was that the outspoken facebook and twitter connected groups that seemed to push and manage the movements
whose members invariably gave english interviews at C2 going to native speaker level and usually bearing _english language_ placards/posters completely vanished after the nation colapsed. 5th column comes to mind.

What remained was a fragmented arrangement of power groups, armed imported terrorists and rabble.


Or maybe those persons always belonged to the local power groups and where used to attract western interest and intervention. Sure, you can believe that some evil superpower controls everything, I prefer to believe that the West is far away from being as powerful and clever as some believe and hoave noproblems with the idea of being played and used by power groups in those countries. Add our media, who only cares about clicks, and this seems easy to me.
 
DDR
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:54 pm

WIederling wrote:
mham001 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
We simply ran out of enemies, so why not allow us a peace dividend. Most Germans, me for cetain, are eternally grateful to Pres. Reagan who told Mr. Gorbachev to tear down that wall and Mr. Gorbachev complied, Kudos to him as well.


And yet, Reagan was widely defiled in Germany when he stood his ground. I know because I lived there at the time. Massive demonstrations, plenty of name calling and insults hurled. One Time reporter I talked to on a train in France warned me I should not go to Germany because of the sentiment that the US and Reagan was starting armageddon.


Reagan was a megalomaniac a*hole.
Good actor. nothing beyond.

Sorry Wlederling, I disagree. Reagan was a horrible actor.
 
Derico
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:53 am

LOT767301ER wrote:
mham001 wrote:
zkojq wrote:

. You could eliminate borders tomrrow from El Paso down to Ushuaia and it wouldnt be 1/10th of the existential problem that the Germans (and Swedish) have created. .


Well, Argentina's experience with an open northern border suggest this is not entirely true. A chart line shows that the rise in crime from "negligible" in the 1960s to a murder rate of 3 or 4 per 1000 by the early 1990s hugs a second chart line of immigrant waves (the first poor people from an economic crisis in Chile before Pinochet, then leftists escaping Chile). And then in the 1990s when a very large number of people from Bolivia, Paraguay, and Peru flowed across the border because of the dollar peg in Argentina meant you could earn dollars and send back home, including many criminals who set base in the poor neighborhoods, especially after Peru cracked down on the guerillas. Then Argentina had it's own huge financial crisis and crime rates spiked again. As the 2000s unfolded crime stabilized but the government at the time felt the border was of little interest, so checks were minimized and no new radars were installed. The government at the time issued a new program called "Patria Grande" which meant any illegal immigrant could find it fairly easy to gain access to services, this overwhelmed the public system and it is well known in a public hospital at times you'd have a hard time finding an Argentine citizen. Worst of all though, because of the lack of new radar, narcos from north of the border infiltrated on illegal flghts and still do with some impunity. The drugs then flow down the Parana to a narco hub in Rosario to supply drugs to central Argentina, Buenos Aires and of course ship them off to Europe. This has created a huge crime problem in parts of Rosario in the same way as in parts of Chicago.

The problem is that border security all over the world is beholden to political tendencies and factors, and the decisions made in Europe and North America over the years clearly reflect that the decisions were made based on political practicality than on hard science. That is unfortunate, because open borders are a beautiful thing, it gets people to understand each other better and eliminates suspicion that leads to mistrust that leads to hate. But you do need robust controls on the bad people and be harsh on the penalties for taking advantage of such a system.And that is where governments fail. Now you have the result that it is GOOD people (the young people in the UK, for example), who will pay the price for others' mistakes, as their own freedom of movement will be far less than that of their parents. And for older people to tell them they should be glad about this is the height of arrogance.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump Slams NATO, Floats Russia Nuke Deal in European Interview

Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:39 am

mham001 wrote:
And yet, in all your indefinite wisdom and hate for the man (which is not unfounded), you allow yourselves to become totally dependent on his energy.


Well... Oil and Gas are commodities. That is different that making your economy dependent on crucial components for production. Would you rather want us to stop using Russian Energy, drive up the prices on the non-russian supplied markets, and support China by forcing Russia to cheaply dump all the stuff on them? I think the strategy of driving oil prices down, so they can only produce at marginal costs, worked rather well.

Too bad you now got President to be that loves fossile fueles, wants to make you more dependent on it and drive prices back up. And fix the Russian household problem for Putin, while increasing your national dept with all his costly plans. That is basically what Reagan did to the Russians, high stakes gamble since he almost bankrupted the USA in the process and your finances are still suffering from the Reagan days. But it worked. Putin now has the 2.0 Version of the same plan. Not just get the enemy to overspend, but also increase his revenue.

Trump may very well be the biggest intelligence coup of all times.

I'm sorry, who is propping up whom?


Share of Renewable Electrical Power in Germany. That is gross, not net, we are Europeans biggest net exporter of electrical power to the tune of almost 60 TWh, which is about the power you need to run Israel, Austria or Greece or 5 Million US Citizens.
Image

Bio-Gas Production:
Image

You can see that we are working on it. Personally i work in a company that produces about 4x more electrical power as it consumes, my power at home is sustainable renewable (so they can not just buy certificates) and so is my Gas. And since Jan. 1st the same is true for my parents. Strangely enough, in their City that actually was the cheapest option.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

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