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Hillis
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Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:59 pm

Since taking office, the current occupant of The White House has already issued well over a dozen Executive Orders, on varying subjects. One of the complaints about his predecessor that he, and the political movement he leads, was that Mr. Obama was bying tyranical with the use of Executive Orders. It didn't matter to them that Mr. Obama had issued far less Executive Orders than all of his predecessors going back to at least FDR, the rabid right saw him as a dictator, and even tried to challenge his use of Executive Orders as Unconstitutional.

So, the question is, where's the outrage from that crowed who thought Obama was a tyrant, but seem silent on the record pace of Executive Orders the current occupant of the White House is issuing? I mean, if one president is seen as a "tyrant" for using Executive Orders, and doing so sparingly comparied to his predecessors, why isn't the current one who has issued over a dozen in 3 weeks not being held to the same standard?
 
KLDC10
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:34 pm

Any President has a right to issue Executive Orders. It was not the executive orders themselves, but their nature, which was the problem under former-President Obama. It is perfectly possible to object to the contents of an order while still accepting the right of the President to sign that order.

Opposition to President Obama was largely predicated on the concept of overreach. Since I cannot see any evidence of overreach in any of President Trump's orders, I personally am not opposed to his using them in advance of the concepts contained therein being codified into law by Congress.

So I see no hypocrisy here, and nor am I a "stupid prick" for supporting him.
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coolian2
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:45 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Any President has a right to issue Executive Orders. It was not the executive orders themselves, but their nature, which was the problem under former-President Obama. It is perfectly possible to object to the contents of an order while still accepting the right of the President to sign that order.

Opposition to President Obama was largely predicated on the concept of overreach. Since I cannot see any evidence of overreach in any of President Trump's orders, I personally am not opposed to his using them in advance of the concepts contained therein being codified into law by Congress.

So I see no hypocrisy here, and nor am I a "stupid prick" for supporting him.

Well your entire post suggests....actually no I don't want to be banned
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Hillis
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:52 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Any President has a right to issue Executive Orders. It was not the executive orders themselves, but their nature, which was the problem under former-President Obama. It is perfectly possible to object to the contents of an order while still accepting the right of the President to sign that order.

Opposition to President Obama was largely predicated on the concept of overreach. Since I cannot see any evidence of overreach in any of President Trump's orders, I personally am not opposed to his using them in advance of the concepts contained therein being codified into law by Congress.

So I see no hypocrisy here, and nor am I a "stupid prick" for supporting him.


Well, I'll have to disagree with you on the last sentence, but that's just me.

As for the rest, I will raise the :redflag: of bullshit. That's a cop-out. Here's the list as of a few days ago. Read that, and it reeks of "overreach", as you like to put it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /97229452/

It comes down to one fact: everything the GOP was bitching about during Obama's term, they'll stay silent with on Trump, because, quite simply, they hated Mr. Obama simply for who he was. The fact they bitched about him getting black dogs, or daring to go on less vacation days than most presidents, or because he wore a tan suit once, or on a number of different, bullshit things, is proof of that. They hated who he was. That's why they made a stink over executive orders.
 
SoJo
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:25 pm

Another thread Hillis ? Why do you bother. The world knows how your President is behaving. At least in the UK, you have to be an MP before becoming the Prime Minister. Your rantings are getting you nowhere. He was elected and the people of the USA (and maybe the world) will have to suffer the consequences. Really sad situation for us all. Just saying M8.
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
KLDC10
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:31 pm

Hillis wrote:
Well, I'll have to disagree with you on the last sentence, but that's just me.

As for the rest, I will raise the :redflag: of bullshit. That's a cop-out. Here's the list as of a few days ago. Read that, and it reeks of "overreach", as you like to put it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /97229452/

It comes down to one fact: everything the GOP was bitching about during Obama's term, they'll stay silent with on Trump, because, quite simply, they hated Mr. Obama simply for who he was. The fact they bitched about him getting black dogs, or daring to go on less vacation days than most presidents, or because he wore a tan suit once, or on a number of different, bullshit things, is proof of that. They hated who he was. That's why they made a stink over executive orders.


Well, that is one of the reasons I have refrained from taking part in very many discussions here over the past few days. You display little capacity to accept that conservatives like myself might in fact be free-thinking and of sound mind.

It is not a "cop-out" at all. It is a perfectly valid response to an incredibly poor argument on your part. Just to remind ourselves, here's what you said in your opening post:

Hillis wrote:
So, the question is, where's the outrage from that crowed who thought Obama was a tyrant, but seem silent on the record pace of Executive Orders the current occupant of the White House is issuing? I mean, if one president is seen as a "tyrant" for using Executive Orders, and doing so sparingly comparied to his predecessors, why isn't the current one who has issued over a dozen in 3 weeks not being held to the same standard?


You began your diatribe with a sweeping generalization about conservatives, and one which could easily be turned round by posing the question "why are Democrats so bothered now if they weren't when Obama was doing it?" So you see, the argument cuts both ways, and is kind of self-defeating. At the very least, it is incredibly weak and also predicated on wild assumptions about why exactly conservatives opposed many of Mr Obama's executive orders.

To go back to your second post, stop trying to divert attention away from the debate you started about executive orders. Obama's dogs, suits and vacations have absolutely nothing to do with his executive orders. What you are doing is conflating separate issues and trying to imply that some kind of behind-the-scenes racism was responsible for all of it, which again is a very poor argument because it is perfectly possible to oppose some of Mr Obama's policies without automatically being a racist. Your implication (which is incredibly clear by the way, I'm not sure why you didn't just come out and say it) is flawed.
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Aesma
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:48 pm

No overreach yet an AG had to be fired because she thought differently, and several federal judges have something to say about it too.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
coolian2
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:24 pm

SoJo wrote:
Another thread Hillis ? Why do you bother. The world knows how your President is behaving. At least in the UK, you have to be an MP before becoming the Prime Minister. Your rantings are getting you nowhere. He was elected and the people of the USA (and maybe the world) will have to suffer the consequences. Really sad situation for us all. Just saying M8.

Everyone needs to open a vein at times. Let him go, you don't need to read it and we're all in the same horrible boat anyway.
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WIederling
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:59 pm

coolian2 wrote:
Well your entire post suggests....actually no I don't want to be banned


there was this quip around on some mother in law:
"She is a hypochondriac.
... and we think she is faking it."

How wold I go by and adapt that observation to "hypocrisy" ? :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
mham001
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:04 am

coolian2 wrote:
Oh please like we expect anything less than total hypocrisy from the stupid pricks who still support him


You know, that is completely uncalled for. You don't live here, you don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't do anything here, this is not your issue. You have no skin in this game and you and the others like you in this forum who cannot shutup about the stunning rejection of your ideas by americans can gfy.

I guarantee you would not say that to my face.
 
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KruegerFlaps
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:24 am

mham001 wrote:
You don't live here, you don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't do anything here, this is not your issue. You have no skin in this game and you and the others like you in this forum who cannot shutup about the stunning rejection of your ideas by americans can gfy.


I agree that the use of inflammatory language serves no one. However, whether of not a person is a US citizen he or she may still be affected by Executive Orders. For example, whatever one's opinion on security needs, Trump's actions have had an impact on visitors to the US and on airlines around the world. Even legal US residents had their travel plans placed in doubt.

Trump's attitude to international relations and trade is also of concern to people in other countries. The reality is that any US president can and does have an impact in other countries. So why should people outside the US not have the right to comment on who has been elected?
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt Speech, 1783
 
mham001
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:38 am

KruegerFlaps wrote:
mham001 wrote:
You don't live here, you don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't do anything here, this is not your issue. You have no skin in this game and you and the others like you in this forum who cannot shutup about the stunning rejection of your ideas by americans can gfy.


I agree that the use of inflammatory language serves no one. However, whether of not a person is a US citizen he or she may still be affected by Executive Orders. For example, whatever one's opinion on security needs, Trump's actions have had an impact on visitors to the US and on airlines around the world. Even legal US residents had their travel plans placed in doubt.

Trump's attitude to international relations and trade is also of concern to people in other countries. The reality is that any US president can and does have an impact in other countries. So why should people outside the US not have the right to comment on who has been elected?


It is a clear lapse of intelligence to believe that Americans elect their government for the good of those outside the borders. Foreigners who have no clue why a person would vote the way they do. They who don't know the culture or the people, beyond what they read on the internet, have no business calling those voters vulgar names from the safety of their keyboard 5,000 miles away. And no, a visit to Memphis does make one knowledgeable of any of it.
 
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KruegerFlaps
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:46 am

mham001 wrote:
It is a clear lapse of intelligence to believe that Americans elect their government for the good of those outside the borders.


To which, I can only quote you back ...
mham001 wrote:
You know, that is completely uncalled for.


Even the thickest of us here in Australia know that we elect our Prime Minister to do what is believed to be in Australia's best interests. We would not expect populations in other countries to do any different. However, the point still remains, because of the stature of the US elections there can and do have an impact on other countries.

To quote you once more;
mham001 wrote:
It is a clear lapse of intelligence to believe
that citizens in those countries will not comment. Whether you choose to consider those opinions is entirely up to you.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt Speech, 1783
 
coolian2
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:48 am

mham001 wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
Oh please like we expect anything less than total hypocrisy from the stupid pricks who still support him


You know, that is completely uncalled for. You don't live here, you don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't do anything here, this is not your issue. You have no skin in this game and you and the others like you in this forum who cannot shutup about the stunning rejection of your ideas by americans can gfy.

I guarantee you would not say that to my face.

Wow
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MrHMSH
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:01 am

mham001 wrote:
You don't live here, you don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't do anything here, this is not your issue. You have no skin in this game


Not that I have much of a dog in this fight, but if that's the way you think, why do you comment on threads that don't concern the USA? Surely in that case no one should ever comment on anything other than their own domestic affairs? I thought you were in favour of free speech?

Seriously, it's an international forum, you don't have to be a specific nationality to criticise a country. Otherwise you put your money where your mouth is.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:08 am

You elect a populist as president of a country with a powerful military and you expect the rest of the world to shut up ? US citizens might be bad at history but we aren't.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
coolian2
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:54 am

MrHMSH wrote:
mham001 wrote:
You don't live here, you don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't do anything here, this is not your issue. You have no skin in this game


Not that I have much of a dog in this fight, but if that's the way you think, why do you comment on threads that don't concern the USA? Surely in that case no one should ever comment on anything other than their own domestic affairs? I thought you were in favour of free speech?

Seriously, it's an international forum, you don't have to be a specific nationality to criticise a country. Otherwise you put your money where your mouth is.

I've called him on this before. Just tone deaf
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mham001
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:08 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Not that I have much of a dog in this fight, but if that's the way you think, why do you comment on threads that don't concern the USA? Surely in that case no one should ever comment on anything other than their own domestic affairs? I thought you were in favour of free speech?


I rarely do, generally just some point of fact, and I have never called anybody a prick because of their opinion in their own domestic affairs. I also do not write anything I would not say to someone's face.

Notably, he can't be bothered to comment on his own nation's political events... viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1349561

MrHMSH wrote:
Seriously, it's an international forum, you don't have to be a specific nationality to criticise a country. Otherwise you put your money where your mouth is.


When he pays my tax bills, he can call me a prick. Deal?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:33 am

mham001 wrote:
I rarely do, generally just some point of fact, and I have never called anybody a prick because of their opinion in their own domestic affairs. I also do not write anything I would not say to someone's face.


Doesn't matter how rare it is, you comment on other countries' affairs. However...

You don't live abroad,
you don't vote abroad,
you don't pay taxes abroad
you don't do anything abroad.

So according to your own viewpoint, what happens abroad is not your issue, and therefore you shouldn't comment on it. Right?

When he pays my tax bills, he can call me a prick. Deal?


No deal. Freedom of speech means he should be allowed an opinion of you. I'm not sure why paying tax bills affects that. Sure, it's not nice that he calls you a prick, but that's his problem, as someone who values freedom of speech he should be allowed to say that.


I'm not interested in how
 
mham001
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:08 am

MrHMSH wrote:
mham001 wrote:
I rarely do, generally just some point of fact, and I have never called anybody a prick because of their opinion in their own domestic affairs. I also do not write anything I would not say to someone's face.


Doesn't matter how rare it is, you comment on other countries' affairs. However...

You don't live abroad,
you don't vote abroad,
you don't pay taxes abroad
you don't do anything abroad.

So according to your own viewpoint, what happens abroad is not your issue, and therefore you shouldn't comment on it. Right?


Like I said, I avoid expressing opinions on the domestic affairs of other countries. Nor do I call their voters names for their opinions. Nor do any other Americans on this forum, yet it seems quite common from others.

When he pays my tax bills, he can call me a prick. Deal?


MrHMSH wrote:
No deal. Freedom of speech means he should be allowed an opinion of you. I'm not sure why paying tax bills affects that. Sure, it's not nice that he calls you a prick, but that's his problem, as someone who values freedom of speech he should be allowed to say that.


Where did you get the idea this forum has "free speech"?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:17 am

if Obama can use Executive Orders to side-step Congress, then why cant Trump?

Has the law been broken?
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seb146
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:17 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Any President has a right to issue Executive Orders.


Interesting considering righties would scream and howl and whine that "Obama is ruling by decree" and "he is avoiding Congress" and "presidents should not be allowed to do that" and so forth with every Obama executive order.

Keep in mind that Obama was a Constitutional scholar and editor of Harvard Law Review. What legal background does the orange menace have?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
coolian2
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:41 am

mham001 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Not that I have much of a dog in this fight, but if that's the way you think, why do you comment on threads that don't concern the USA? Surely in that case no one should ever comment on anything other than their own domestic affairs? I thought you were in favour of free speech?


I rarely do, generally just some point of fact, and I have never called anybody a prick because of their opinion in their own domestic affairs. I also do not write anything I would not say to someone's face.

Notably, he can't be bothered to comment on his own nation's political events... viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1349561

MrHMSH wrote:
Seriously, it's an international forum, you don't have to be a specific nationality to criticise a country. Otherwise you put your money where your mouth is.


When he pays my tax bills, he can call me a prick. Deal?

I assumed I didn't need to comment about Bill English, who is a prick.

Can I give you a tenner and call you a wanker?
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MrHMSH
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:46 am

mham001 wrote:

Like I said, I avoid expressing opinions on the domestic affairs of other countries. Nor do I call their voters names for their opinions. Nor do any other Americans on this forum, yet it seems quite common from others.


No, you've commented on threads not about the USA, so you're being a hypocrite. Remember, no taxes, no voting, so no comments. At all.

Where did you get the idea this forum has "free speech"?


The forum may not, but you believe that, and you're the one posting, not the forum.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:25 am

mham001 wrote:
Like I said, I avoid expressing opinions on the domestic affairs of other countries.


Good.. no more comments about Brexit or the Euro or Refugees in Europe from you anymore.

What happendes in the US has very real effects on the rest of the world. While it has been a long time since the world economy got the flu when the US economy snooze, you are still significant. While Trump is probably on a good way to make America less relevant for the rest of us, there is no such thing as an "US domestic" issue for the time being.

And the USA going the way of Russia or Turkey into a pseudo-democratic dictatorship is of great concern, in the time of H-Bombs disposing of Trump may become a lil bit costly ...

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
coolian2
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:34 pm

I'd also like to note I never expressly called mham001 a prick. He took a vague comment and ran with it. Technically I didn't yet call him a wanker either.
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WIederling
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:38 pm

mham001 wrote:
Foreigners who have no clue why a person would vote the way they do. They who don't know the culture or the people, beyond what they read on the internet, have no business calling those voters vulgar names from the safety of their keyboard 5,000 miles away. And no, a visit to Memphis does make one knowledgeable of any of it.


On the reverse side even more clueless flagwaving individuals in fly over country and beyond
have no qualms telling everybody else on the globe "how things go" and "what to do about it"
pumping their wisdom from a dry fount.

Not only that they also vote for people that feel tasked to push these uber dumb ideas into reality.

This is "good for America" only if you
see "immediate destruction abroad" combined with "delayed destruction at home" as real progress.
Every generation of fumbling political leaders and their minions create exponentially increasing blowback.
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Hillis
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:47 pm

SoJo wrote:
Another thread Hillis ? Why do you bother. The world knows how your President is behaving. At least in the UK, you have to be an MP before becoming the Prime Minister. Your rantings are getting you nowhere. He was elected and the people of the USA (and maybe the world) will have to suffer the consequences. Really sad situation for us all. Just saying M8.


Right over your head. This isn't about Obama or the current occupant of the White House. It's about perceptions of Americans, and mostly about those on the right, who thought this kind of rule-by-decree as Impeachable.

And, by the way, you read it, didn't you?
 
Hillis
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:52 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
if Obama can use Executive Orders to side-step Congress, then why cant Trump?

Has the law been broken?


Yes, which is it? According to Republicans, Obama was a tyrant for putting out far less executive orders than any of his predecessors. And yet, in just over 3 weeks, the current occupant of the White House has put out now about 20. And yet not a peep from them. I don't think the current occupant of The White House has sent suggested or sent any type of legislation to be considered by the Congress since he was crowned.

The question is WHY the hypocrisy? Why the shrill voices when Obama did it, and now that the current occupant of the White House is on a record pace, they're dead silent? Could it be it wasn't about the executive orders, but something else?
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:34 pm

For whatever reason,people wanted a bully for president.

He's not my president and neither is he's yours. He doesn't have the personality to govern, so i guess he's will spend his time in office dictating executive orders.

We got a dictator in office.

Nobody should be surprised.
Last edited by DLFREEBIRD on Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:37 pm

[quote="mham001"
You know, that is completely uncalled for. You don't live here, you don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't do anything here, this is not your issue. [/quote]

My family has lived in this country for eight generations now and I was born and raised in Michigan. I did vote and I do pay taxes, probably more than you do.

And I agree with him. And I will say it to your face.

Now, did you have an argument other than an ad hominem attack?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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tommy1808
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:41 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
so i guess he's will spend his time in office dictating executive orders.


Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zQ55S-DJsM

He doesn´t dictate executive orders, he doesn´t even read them before he signs President Bannons orders...

http://www.gq.com/story/donald-trump-is ... understand

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:54 pm

Hillis wrote:
Since taking office, the current occupant of The White House has already issued well over a dozen Executive Orders, on varying subjects. One of the complaints about his predecessor that he, and the political movement he leads, was that Mr. Obama was bying tyranical with the use of Executive Orders. It didn't matter to them that Mr. Obama had issued far less Executive Orders than all of his predecessors going back to at least FDR, the rabid right saw him as a dictator, and even tried to challenge his use of Executive Orders as Unconstitutional.


The quantity of executive orders issued by Obama was not the issue. It was the content of his EOs. His attempt to legislate via executive order was unprecedented in magnitude. Republicans didn't just try to challenge his EOs as unconstitutional, they succeeded in having many thrown out. The Obama administration lost more legal cases challenging its executive authority than any other in modern history.

The tragedy here is that we Republicans told you this would happen. We told you that Obama was setting a dangerous precedent. We told you subsequent Presidents would abuse it. But you cheerfully watched Obama write EO after EO, never contemplating the shoe would be on the other foot. You effectively deprived us of the argument for why Trump shouldn't do what he is now doing, just like Reid deprived us of the argument for why justice nominations shouldn't be confirmed by simple majority.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:56 pm

mham001 wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
Oh please like we expect anything less than total hypocrisy from the stupid pricks who still support him


You know, that is completely uncalled for. You don't live here, you don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't do anything here, this is not your issue. You have no skin in this game and you and the others like you in this forum who cannot shutup about the stunning rejection of your ideas by americans can gfy.

I guarantee you would not say that to my face.



last time i checked we all share the same planet. so yes, Trump Executive order fetish, concerns everyone on this planet.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:03 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Hillis wrote:
Since taking office, the current occupant of The White House has already issued well over a dozen Executive Orders, on varying subjects. One of the complaints about his predecessor that he, and the political movement he leads, was that Mr. Obama was bying tyranical with the use of Executive Orders. It didn't matter to them that Mr. Obama had issued far less Executive Orders than all of his predecessors going back to at least FDR, the rabid right saw him as a dictator, and even tried to challenge his use of Executive Orders as Unconstitutional.


The quantity of executive orders issued by Obama was not the issue. It was the content of his EOs. His attempt to legislate via executive order was unprecedented in magnitude. Republicans didn't just try to challenge his EOs as unconstitutional, they succeeded in having many thrown out. The Obama administration lost more legal cases challenging its executive authority than any other in modern history.

The tragedy here is that we Republicans told you this would happen. We told you that Obama was setting a dangerous precedent. We told you subsequent Presidents would abuse it. But you cheerfully watched Obama write EO after EO, never contemplating the shoe would be on the other foot. You effectively deprived us of the argument for why Trump shouldn't do what he is now doing, just like Reid deprived us of the argument for why justice nominations shouldn't be confirmed by simple majority.



i would like a link to this unprecedented magnitude?
 
aerosreenivas
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:24 pm

Today's rise of Right Wing Politics across the globe and in the US is not the fault of the Populist leaders. It is the fault of their voters. Be it those who voted for BREXIT in last years referendum in UK or in the November US election, the fault lies in people who did not channelize their anger or fear properly. But instead, blindly agreed to what Boris Johnson, Nigel Faraz or Donald Trump had said and voted accordingly.

It is one thing for people to feel frustrated about loss of jobs to foreign immigrants, or fear of a terrorist entering illegally. But it is also another thing to vote for someone who is showing signs of ruling unconstitutionally.

So people who voted for Trump should feel concerned about the current trend in the US politics.
 
WIederling
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:54 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
i would like a link to this unprecedented magnitude?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... _President

Now 2 weeks isn't all that representative but:

Trump 8 in 2 weeks : 4 per week
Obama 276 in 8y / 416 weeks : 0.663 per week
Bush43 291 in 8y / 416 weeks : 0.699 per week

nonetheless : stamping your political program onto the nation via executive orders is a new way of running things.
and it is not what I would associate with a well run democracy.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:59 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
The tragedy here is that we Republicans told you this would happen. We told you that Obama was setting a dangerous precedent. We told you subsequent Presidents would abuse it. But you cheerfully watched Obama write EO after EO, never contemplating the shoe would be on the other foot. You effectively deprived us of the argument for why Trump shouldn't do what he is now doing, just like Reid deprived us of the argument for why justice nominations shouldn't be confirmed by simple majority.

So, in other words, what you're saying is that if I tell someone to not kill another, he does anyway, then I can also kill people because I told him not to do it but he did it anyway? That's the weakest excuse I've ever heard.

Your concern isn't about whether the Democrats opened a floodgate; it's how you can get away with it without being criticized.

"Well we told you not to do it because it corrupts presidents. And look...now our president is corrupt too. We told you not to eliminate the filibuster. And look. Now our Senators can pass their agenda while yours watch from the sidelines (never mind that you'd probably be calling for a nuclear option yourself if Democrats simply filibustered for the sake of filibustering)".

Your statement effective mounts to turning a blind-eye for the GOP's actions. Which one is it? Are you relishing the now powerless minority or do you want the Senate to return to normal order? You don't seem to be in a hurry to ask the GOP to reinstate the filibuster (although don't be surprised if they lose control of the Senate they'll do it in the days before the handover) so I will assume you're enjoying it but don't like the criticism that you and your ilk enjoyed launching towards Democrats.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:55 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
i would like a link to this unprecedented magnitude?


Start with the EO-to-legislation ratio of the Obama administration versus other presidents. EOs are typically written to direct federal agencies on how to enforce legislation passed by Congress. Presidents who sign lots of bills will also sign lots of EOs on how to implement them. Obama wasn't one of those Presidents. He generally signed fewer laws but wrote disproportionately more EOs:

Bush Administration - 1,830 bills signed to 291 EOs signed
Obama Administration - 1,294 bills signed to 277 EOs signed

Finish with the fact that many Obama EOs directly impacted policy areas where he publicly stated that legislative action was mandatory for him to act. When legislation was not forthcoming, he just directed federal agencies to act anyway.

einsteinboricua wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
The tragedy here is that we Republicans told you this would happen. We told you that Obama was setting a dangerous precedent. We told you subsequent Presidents would abuse it. But you cheerfully watched Obama write EO after EO, never contemplating the shoe would be on the other foot. You effectively deprived us of the argument for why Trump shouldn't do what he is now doing, just like Reid deprived us of the argument for why justice nominations shouldn't be confirmed by simple majority.

So, in other words, what you're saying is that if I tell someone to not kill another, he does anyway, then I can also kill people because I told him not to do it but he did it anyway? That's the weakest excuse I've ever heard.


Spare me your hyperbole.

The reality is that the Obama administration used executive authority to maneuver into policy areas without legislative backing. That leaves the Trump administration with no other choice but to use executive authority to pick-up the messes created by the Obama administration.

A better analogy would be that the Obama administration paddled the Executive Order Canoe up poop creek and you now expect Trump to jump overboard.

einsteinboricua wrote:
Your statement effective mounts to turning a blind-eye for the GOP's actions. Which one is it? Are you relishing the now powerless minority or do you want the Senate to return to normal order? You don't seem to be in a hurry to ask the GOP to reinstate the filibuster (although don't be surprised if they lose control of the Senate they'll do it in the days before the handover) so I will assume you're enjoying it but don't like the criticism that you and your ilk enjoyed launching towards Democrats.


I would love for the Senate to return to its normal, functioning, deliberative self.

Senate Democrats could start by confirming Trump nominees at a customary rate. The so-called "obstructionist" Republicans never stopped Obama-era appointments at the start of his terms and generally confirmed his nominees by comfortable margins.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Hillis
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:01 pm

[quote="DfwRevolution]
The tragedy here is that we Republicans told you this would happen. We told you that Obama was setting a dangerous precedent. We told you subsequent Presidents would abuse it. But you cheerfully watched Obama write EO after EO, never contemplating the shoe would be on the other foot. You effectively deprived us of the argument for why Trump shouldn't do what he is now doing, just like Reid deprived us of the argument for why justice nominations shouldn't be confirmed by simple majority.[/quote]

There's one fatal flaw with your argument: Obama set no precedent. If he had been the very first President to use Executive Orders, you might have a case. But every president has used them. With no other president, however, did anyone make an issue of it, until that black guy with the funny name used it, and used it far less than his predecessors. Somehow, then it was a scandal, and more than a few hinted at impeachment over it, which was absurd. He did nothing that no other POTUS had done, but you guys on the right simply hated the man that no matter what he did, be it get two black dogs as pets, or wear a tan suit (which other President's had done), or took a rare vacation as compared to other POTUS's, or his wife wore a strapless dress, or his kids didn't dress they way someone liked, you bitched about it.

That's why what you're saying is complete and utter crap. Now, we have the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania governing almost strictly on Executive Orders, and from you and other hypocrites on the right, there's silence.

This has more to do with personal hatred of Obama than anything he ever did. Be it the color of his skin, or the fact that he was far more educated and smarter than most Republicans in the nation, or his name, or whatever, everything was worth bitching about with him, as far as you're concerned.

You're just an arrogant hypocrite on this, damning one POTUS for something all others did, while staying silent on the idiot who currently sits on self-proclaimed throne in the Oval Office.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:29 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
Bush Administration - 1,830 bills signed to 291 EOs signed
Obama Administration - 1,294 bills signed to 277 EOs signed .


So, he signed less EO´s than Bush, and is the bad guy because he had the Republics trying to block his every move, even when the move was in line with GoP policies.......

What your numbers show is that Bush had a decent house, while Obama showed amazing restrained in issuing EO´s despite a hostile house.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:43 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Spare me your hyperbole.

The reality is that the Obama administration used executive authority to maneuver into policy areas without legislative backing. That leaves the Trump administration with no other choice but to use executive authority to pick-up the messes created by the Obama administration.

I'd buy this argument if Congress were not in GOP hands...but it is. Any "mess" made can be corrected by laws. EOs by Trump can simply be rescinding previous ones. Pence was asked why not go through Congress (you know...that big building controlled by the GOP as well) and he couldn't give a straight answer, despite being part of the chorus that cried foul when Congress was not consulted.

DfwRevolution wrote:
I would love for the Senate to return to its normal, functioning, deliberative self.
That is, until Democrats begin using the filibuster at the same rate the GOP did. Then I assume you'll call for nuclear winter there.

DfwRevolution wrote:
Senate Democrats could start by confirming Trump nominees at a customary rate.
Nothing is stopping Republicans from proceeding. Stop pinning the blame on Democrats for GOP incompetence.

DfwRevolution wrote:
The so-called "obstructionist" Republicans never stopped Obama-era appointments at the start of his terms and generally confirmed his nominees by comfortable margins.
Because none of the nominees raised concerns. None of the nominees had business dealings that came into conflict when their confirmation hearings began. None of the nominees were PERSONALLY cozy with foreign powers. All nominees were generally respected on both sides of the aisle. And more importantly, this was when there were many sane Republicans in Congress not fearing a primary from the Tea Party, which wasn't born yet.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:18 pm

What are the checks and balances for issuing Executive Orders?

Who actually points out to the President, that the order he just signed could be overturned by a Federal Judge or SCOTUS?
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
WIederling
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:43 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
What are the checks and balances for issuing Executive Orders?

Who actually points out to the President, that the order he just signed could be overturned by a Federal Judge or SCOTUS?


you just wrote it !?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:01 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
What are the checks and balances for issuing Executive Orders?

Who actually points out to the President, that the order he just signed could be overturned by a Federal Judge or SCOTUS?


you just wrote it !?



So there is nobody in the westwing that can actually point out something that is likely to get overturned by a Federal Judge or SCOTUS?
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
WIederling
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Re: Hypocrisy On Executive Orders

Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
What are the checks and balances for issuing Executive Orders?

Who actually points out to the President, that the order he just signed could be overturned by a Federal Judge or SCOTUS?


you just wrote it !?



So there is nobody in the westwing that can actually point out something that is likely to get overturned by a Federal Judge or SCOTUS?

They probably could. But they have no intention to do so publicly. See, it is the "Trump Team".
They will as a team try everything to get it past any opposition ( popular or legal ).
Bush43 worked the same way.
Torture?
See this contrived legal expertise allows torture. Pour the Water Donald!

Difference on first blush seems to be the fact that the EO topics are actually brought to a court to decide.
Murphy is an optimist

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