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Aesma
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:55 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The theory was that the social benefit of a college degree would last a lifetime whereas buying cars for people would not.


What happend if people in the US stopped buying cars? Not much...
What happend if people in the US stopped getting degrees? Back to stone age for everyone.
What would happen if no one made a degree: companies would pay you for making one, because in the end, they need you to have one much more than you do..

best regards
Thomas


The amount of money my company spends to train me is quite ridiculous, but there is no choice as I need to have a certification from the manufacturer of what we sell to be able to fix it when there is a problem.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ken777
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:48 pm

We are in a very simple situation - the banks are making too much money off of students to change the program to a more rational one. The banking industry can pour massive funds into political campaign accounts to maintain their huge slow of profits. Maybe when the total debt reaches a point where it cannot survive a big recession things can improve, but now the youth of this country are nothing but a profit segment to the financial sector.
 
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bgm
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:01 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Student loans suck, but it's a part of the process.


Why is education so expensive in the US compared to other countries? I had a friend who graduated with over $200k in debt. Insanity! Makes you wonder: is going to university (at least, in the US) worth if you're so heavily laden with debt afterwards?
Hires only the best people... lol
 
mham001
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:05 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
So I'll ask again:
Please tell me how one might legally become a doctor, lawyer, broker, dentist, accountant, clinical psychologist, realtor, engineer, etc without a degree and licensing?

Because for most of those, you're going to need 6-8yrs or schooling, or more.

You're shitting me, you need 6-8 years education to sell real estate in the US?

It depends on the state.

Here in California, you need a minimum 135 mandatory education credit hours to sit for the realtor's licensing exam.
Considering that most institutions consider 12hrs/semester to be full time, at 24hrs/year it'll take you 5.7yrs to complete--- or more realistically: 6yrs.


BS. That is 135 actual credit hours, not class credits. Sheez, did you learn that in college? What all do you think a realtor does to need 6 years of specialized education? A complete online course can be had for $500.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:10 am

Aesma wrote:
The amount of money my company spends to train me is quite ridiculous, but there is no choice as I need to have a certification from the manufacturer of what we sell to be able to fix it when there is a problem.


Exactly. Why shouldn´t they be paying the rest? Or more importantly, why should you? Every Euro you invest in your education, you want back. With interest. Cheaper for them to pay it for you.

LAX772LR wrote:
And yet, a lot of the (middle class and below) populace doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

In fact, as we can see here in even this thread, some seem to be actively rooting for it! :(


Well, two main reasons are:

a) simple selfishness: i paid, why shouldn´t they
b) lack of education and the constant application of microeconomics thinking on a macroeconomic problem. People do actually think, that if their country has free education, they are paying for other peoples education, while when education is fully privatized, they have the illusion of not paying for it. As if the higher hiring costs aren´t included in any service or good you buy.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Revelation
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:04 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
People do actually think, that if their country has free education, they are paying for other peoples education, while when education is fully privatized, they have the illusion of not paying for it. As if the higher hiring costs aren´t included in any service or good you buy.

It will come down to simple lack of access to quality services whose providers require degrees, such as medical care.
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tommy1808
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
It will come down to simple lack of access to quality services whose providers require degrees, such as medical care.


Nope, many of the same people that cheer when education becomes un-affordable, are also big fans of medical and emergency services as a for profit only enterprise. And if large chunks of the nation have to go without a hospital, because they can´t afford to staff it, will cheer on the magical invisible hand and that people dying because of it is basically good.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
slider
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:29 pm

Not surprised to see this. It is Exhibit A of the "Law of Unintended Consequences"

As soon as the Federal government guaranteed student loans, it kicked off this ridiculous notion that everyone HAS to go to college.

Consequently, colleges and universities start ratcheting up tuition. That ratchet only turns one way folks! Think about it--during the major recession, almost every industry in existence took a haircut except for one: higher education. The educrat establishment marched on, unimpeded, churning out more snowflakes because everyone has to go to college.

This has led to an even more rapid decrease in the skilled trades as well, which is having a major impact. Mike Rowe has championed the return of skilled tradesman and eloquently questions why and when so-called blue collar work became demonized.

And so today, these institutions are safe space, trigger-warning protected, microaggression free factories of bullshit that produce entitled kids that aren't ready for the working world AND are saddled with enormous debt.

Bottom line: if everyone has a degree, then a degree loses value. It SHOULD mean something special, not just handed out like candy.
 
Flighty
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:17 pm

slider, basically I agree with where you are coming from. The government now says that everybody can go to college, and the govt will pay 100% in cold, hard government cash.

Who benefits from saying "everyone should go to college" no matter what the price? Educators and the edu-industrial complex. They are gorging on government money, meanwhile the students have some unrealistic repayment terms. Obviously the schools have already been paid (and are lavished with praised for their public mindedness). Later, there will be a loan forgiveness program to essentially, as my father says it "give them a drinking straw to the Federal treasury," which is the ultimate business plan of education leaders, major health care leaders and many other businesses.
 
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Revelation
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:01 pm

slider wrote:
Not surprised to see this. It is Exhibit A of the "Law of Unintended Consequences"

As soon as the Federal government guaranteed student loans, it kicked off this ridiculous notion that everyone HAS to go to college.

If you feel comfortable arguing this extreme point, you should be equally comfortable with its counter-positive, that no one should go to college. We should be OK with a nation full of people with no more education than they get coming out of high school at age 18. No need for advanced skills in medicine, engineering, finance, law, etc. Just let high school educated people deal with it all.

But this is an asinine (literally, "ass like") point, and so is its counter-positive. No, federal funding did not make it so everyone had to go to college. The idea (and one I shared earlier, also linked to the Law of Unintended Consequences) was that with more education our nation would move higher up the food chain and so we'd be able to compete in a more globalized world where unskilled labor is, like it or not, a commodity. Unfortunately we've thrown out the baby with the bath water, and largely have let our university system degrade and bloat at the same time, as jobs fled our relatively expensive work force.

slider wrote:
This has led to an even more rapid decrease in the skilled trades as well, which is having a major impact. Mike Rowe has championed the return of skilled tradesman and eloquently questions why and when so-called blue collar work became demonized.

I agree there should be a LOT more focus on the trades and blue collar skills, but that would take a much more unified approach to education that the one we have with 50 different states and countless citys/towns/burghs calling the shots. Given The Donald's approach to education, good luck getting this reformed any time soon.

You should understand a big reason why the demonization happened is because traditionally a lot of those jobs were union jobs so the GOP did its best to undermine them. For instance my uncles all got apprenticeships as machinists through union programs. With various schemes supported by the various GOP administrations unions were undermined and largely eliminated, and no equivalent programs were ever instituted.

slider wrote:
And so today, these institutions are safe space, trigger-warning protected, microaggression free factories of bullshit that produce entitled kids that aren't ready for the working world AND are saddled with enormous debt.

You really do need to read sites other than breitbart.com, sigh.

slider wrote:
Bottom line: if everyone has a degree, then a degree loses value. It SHOULD mean something special, not just handed out like candy.

Yes, the value of a degree has been cheapened, but you should consider the world where only the children of 1%ers can get college educations. Trump will have to grab fewer pussies and fertilize more of them so we can have enough bright and skilled people to make this country function, hopefully ones with better senses of social justice (yes) than his own offspring have.

Flighty wrote:
slider, basically I agree with where you are coming from. The government now says that everybody can go to college, and the govt will pay 100% in cold, hard government cash.

Who benefits from saying "everyone should go to college" no matter what the price? Educators and the edu-industrial complex. They are gorging on government money, meanwhile the students have some unrealistic repayment terms. Obviously the schools have already been paid (and are lavished with praised for their public mindedness). Later, there will be a loan forgiveness program to essentially, as my father says it "give them a drinking straw to the Federal treasury," which is the ultimate business plan of education leaders, major health care leaders and many other businesses.

I largely agree with where you are going, but again, you start with a vast exaggeration: it's exceedingly rare that any current student in the US ends up with an education paid 100% by cold, hard government cash.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
slider
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
slider wrote:
Not surprised to see this. It is Exhibit A of the "Law of Unintended Consequences"

As soon as the Federal government guaranteed student loans, it kicked off this ridiculous notion that everyone HAS to go to college.

If you feel comfortable arguing this extreme point, you should be equally comfortable with its counter-positive, that no one should go to college. We should be OK with a nation full of people with no more education than they get coming out of high school at age 18. No need for advanced skills in medicine, engineering, finance, law, etc. Just let high school educated people deal with it all.

But this is an asinine (literally, "ass like") point, and so is its counter-positive. No, federal funding did not make it so everyone had to go to college. The idea (and one I shared earlier, also linked to the Law of Unintended Consequences) was that with more education our nation would move higher up the food chain and so we'd be able to compete in a more globalized world where unskilled labor is, like it or not, a commodity. Unfortunately we've thrown out the baby with the bath water, and largely have let our university system degrade and bloat at the same time, as jobs fled our relatively expensive work force.

slider wrote:
This has led to an even more rapid decrease in the skilled trades as well, which is having a major impact. Mike Rowe has championed the return of skilled tradesman and eloquently questions why and when so-called blue collar work became demonized.

I agree there should be a LOT more focus on the trades and blue collar skills, but that would take a much more unified approach to education that the one we have with 50 different states and countless citys/towns/burghs calling the shots. Given The Donald's approach to education, good luck getting this reformed any time soon.

You should understand a big reason why the demonization happened is because traditionally a lot of those jobs were union jobs so the GOP did its best to undermine them. For instance my uncles all got apprenticeships as machinists through union programs. With various schemes supported by the various GOP administrations unions were undermined and largely eliminated, and no equivalent programs were ever instituted.

slider wrote:
And so today, these institutions are safe space, trigger-warning protected, microaggression free factories of bullshit that produce entitled kids that aren't ready for the working world AND are saddled with enormous debt.

You really do need to read sites other than breitbart.com, sigh.

slider wrote:
Bottom line: if everyone has a degree, then a degree loses value. It SHOULD mean something special, not just handed out like candy.

Yes, the value of a degree has been cheapened, but you should consider the world where only the children of 1%ers can get college educations. Trump will have to grab fewer pussies and fertilize more of them so we can have enough bright and skilled people to make this country function, hopefully ones with better senses of social justice (yes) than his own offspring have.

Flighty wrote:
slider, basically I agree with where you are coming from. The government now says that everybody can go to college, and the govt will pay 100% in cold, hard government cash.

Who benefits from saying "everyone should go to college" no matter what the price? Educators and the edu-industrial complex. They are gorging on government money, meanwhile the students have some unrealistic repayment terms. Obviously the schools have already been paid (and are lavished with praised for their public mindedness). Later, there will be a loan forgiveness program to essentially, as my father says it "give them a drinking straw to the Federal treasury," which is the ultimate business plan of education leaders, major health care leaders and many other businesses.

I largely agree with where you are going, but again, you start with a vast exaggeration: it's exceedingly rare that any current student in the US ends up with an education paid 100% by cold, hard government cash.


Well, the counter-positive you denote is not mutually exclusive. Just because I say not everyone should go to college is not synonymous with saying no one should. That’s a fatuous argument. However, you hit upon something indirectly there—because high school government education has been such a failure in many circles, we seldom have people who are in fact in possession of skills that would provide them a living.

And again, no disrespect, but I think you’re getting caught up in semantics here. Federal funding didn’t MAKE everyone go to college, but it sure as hell did pour millions of people in who might otherwise be incapable of doing so, unwilling, ambivalent, etc.

However, we are in total agreement about the skilled trades. I have great respect for people who possess that talent—I certainly do not in most disciplines!

And we could probably argue ad nauseam about the union angle on this; while it’s true that many labor organizations helped developed craft programs, apprenticeships, and the like, it went off the rails when they then became the complete control freaks and gatekeepers of said trades. It created a barrier to entry all on its own for some!

Let me be clear—I’m hardly a 1%er, and I have a B.S. degree and have worked my balls off to make something of myself, get value from my degree (beyond merely the financial), and it took me WAY too long to pay off my student loans. I will look up, if available, what the stats are for what % of loans or college costs are borne via govt loans. That’s an interesting thing to figure. But it’s not hard to understand that he who pays, has control. That’s the bottom line—government decides winners and losers, and they shouldn’t. “The world will always need ditchdiggers, Billy.”

I think you need to lay off the Trump derangement syndrome, man. This issue is partially a political creation, but it’s been a bipartisan clusterfuck getting here and it needs to be one to get out of it.
 
mham001
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:54 pm

Revelation wrote:

You should understand a big reason why the demonization happened is because traditionally a lot of those jobs were union jobs so the GOP did its best to undermine them. For instance my uncles all got apprenticeships as machinists through union programs. With various schemes supported by the various GOP administrations unions were undermined and largely eliminated, and no equivalent programs were ever instituted.


Actually a big reason is because trades have been tainted with cheap, illegal labor. I have done recruiting drives, they look down on trades because it is something "those people" do. That cheap illegal labor also severely stagnated wages. As for the unions (yes, they do exist), even some of them have embraced illegals because the illegal will never be able to collect the pension money being paid into the account. The American worker has been screwed.
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:56 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
So, where's Bernie and his minions, chanting about auto loan forgiveness?

Off somewhere understanding the difference in impact between 5yrs and 25yrs? Between secured and unsecured? ...dual feats apparently beyond your type.


Spare me the insults. Yes, there's no way to "repossess" a degree, and the life of the loan is far different, but once again, if the argument has truly been about unshackling those of limited means from financial bondage, why wasn't there a cry to forgive auto loans, something that arguably burdens the poor far worse than student debt does? Both higher education and automobile purchases are optional, and while you could live out of your car if you needed to, a degree in gender studies won't, by itself, provide you shelter from the elements.

I've long maintained that there's a huge problem with a system that may prevent, say, a young mother trying to buy a used Civic so she can get to work, yet allows a teenager with no credit or collateral to take out a loan for tens or sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars with nothing to back it up.


There sure as hell is..Government Service....You can get a MD if you promise to give x years of your life treating folks in rural or other areas not served by Docs...
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Osubuckeyes
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:03 pm

Several points that boggle my mind as a relatively recent college grad is the amount of money that my peers and those following me would take out in loans for "expenses". This is of course anecdotal, but I have heard similar from many friends and family across the nation that irresponsible spending of student loan money has been an additional burden to those with student loan debt. These people were taking out student loans for not things like books, rent, food, but weekend parties, extravagant vacations, downpayment for car loan, and others. To me this is systemic to a college culture problem where student stores and college culture "require" new ipads, laptops, student bulls*** every year, with many universities even encouraging this behavior, by offering streamlined ability to charge just about anything to their tuition accounts during the first few weeks of school... Some of my friends abused it and now are shoulder deep in debt working for 35k/year with a $5-600/mo loan payment.

Additionally, part of the college culture has created a sort of non-price competition between universities to build the most modern, fancy dorms with flat screen TVs, kitchens, private bathrooms. I will try to find the source, but this type of housing is causing skyrocketing cost per student, which ends up being subsidized by the govt loans in the first place... This combined with the huge expansion of administrative costs over the past few decades have been the main culprits in the rise of tuition across the nation. I know at ASU the research/Grant/faculty portion of funding has largely stayed stagnant, while administrative costs have ballooned to exceed them in size. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opin ... -much.html

On the flip side of all that I know plenty of folks with useful degrees, who make their payments on time and within budget who would be massive beneficiaries to any sort of relief and forgiveness program. This bubble isn't sustainable in the long run and something will certainly have to give. I am hesitant in supporting a loan forgiveness solution without caveats based on my experience of waste and general financial carelessness. However, a budding middle class could be unleashed if this huge burden is lifted off of a generation for maybe the first time in American history that will generally be worse off than those prior, and whose prospects at home ownership are largely dim without entering into a lifetime of debt.
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:01 am

slider wrote:
Well, the counter-positive you denote is not mutually exclusive. Just because I say not everyone should go to college is not synonymous with saying no one should. That’s a fatuous argument.

My point is that saying that government-backed loans made everyone go to college is about as fatuous as saying no one should go to college. Maybe I was taking you too literally but you did capitalize a word so it seemed pretty literal.

slider wrote:
And again, no disrespect, but I think you’re getting caught up in semantics here. Federal funding didn’t MAKE everyone go to college, but it sure as hell did pour millions of people in who might otherwise be incapable of doing so, unwilling, ambivalent, etc.

I remember doing my own financial aid forms back when it was the glory days of student loans (not to mention outright grants!) and have helped others do them since, and can say it certainly weeded out the ambivalent. There was aid, but it was no free ride. It didn't work if parents didn't have some skin in the game too. Clearly not enough in terms of government backed loans but again it was no free ride.

slider wrote:
However, we are in total agreement about the skilled trades. I have great respect for people who possess that talent—I certainly do not in most disciplines!

:checkmark:

slider wrote:
And we could probably argue ad nauseam about the union angle on this; while it’s true that many labor organizations helped developed craft programs, apprenticeships, and the like, it went off the rails when they then became the complete control freaks and gatekeepers of said trades. It created a barrier to entry all on its own for some!

Fair enough.

slider wrote:
Let me be clear—I’m hardly a 1%er, and I have a B.S. degree and have worked my balls off to make something of myself, get value from my degree (beyond merely the financial), and it took me WAY too long to pay off my student loans. I will look up, if available, what the stats are for what % of loans or college costs are borne via govt loans. That’s an interesting thing to figure. But it’s not hard to understand that he who pays, has control. That’s the bottom line—government decides winners and losers, and they shouldn’t. “The world will always need ditchdiggers, Billy.”

And predictably my take is very different. Government should project and model society's needs and make sure aid is configured to meet those needs. Yes, exactly, it should pick winners and losers. It's far better than letting the desires of 18 year olds determine the outcome. I'm sure conservatives will scream about those cases where someone gets screwed out of an education because of this, but if they're true conservatives they should also believe that a lack of government support doesn't necessarily mean they're screwed.

Queue the next line of conservative thought: well, we can't configure aid so no one gets screwed, so we should aid no one. That in essence means the only ones being college educated will be the 1%ers. That's pretty much the way things were before the post-WWII boom in public college education due to the GI Bill.

slider wrote:
I think you need to lay off the Trump derangement syndrome, man. This issue is partially a political creation, but it’s been a bipartisan clusterfuck getting here and it needs to be one to get out of it.

And you should excise snowflake from your vocabulary. It makes you sound like a lout.

Personally I think there is a lot of liberal blame here because they largely were the ones that set things up so that the outcome was determined by 18 year olds, but the GOP solution like everything else is to shove sticks into the spokes. Ideally there would be a middle of the road approach to fixing things, but these days we live in a very polarized world.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:08 am

mham001 wrote:
Actually a big reason is because trades have been tainted with cheap, illegal labor. I have done recruiting drives, they look down on trades because it is something "those people" do. That cheap illegal labor also severely stagnated wages. As for the unions (yes, they do exist), even some of them have embraced illegals because the illegal will never be able to collect the pension money being paid into the account. The American worker has been screwed.

My unionized uncles who went through apprenticeships were cheap and were immigrants, but they were legal immigrants.

I could very well see today's middle class and above workers looking down on the trades for reasons you give, but if you look at how trades are done elsewhere like (largely) in Europe, the trades are respected. It's really on us for letting employers get away with hiring illegal labor so easily.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:09 am

Revelation wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Actually a big reason is because trades have been tainted with cheap, illegal labor. I have done recruiting drives, they look down on trades because it is something "those people" do. That cheap illegal labor also severely stagnated wages. As for the unions (yes, they do exist), even some of them have embraced illegals because the illegal will never be able to collect the pension money being paid into the account. The American worker has been screwed.

My unionized uncles who went through apprenticeships were low paid and were immigrants, but they were legal immigrants.

I could very well see today's middle class and above workers looking down on the trades for reasons you give, but if you look at how trades are done elsewhere like (largely) in Europe, the trades are respected. It's really on us for letting employers get away with hiring illegal labor so easily.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:43 am

Revelation wrote:
It's really on us for letting employers get away with hiring illegal labor so easily.

^ This, this, a thousand times THIS!

I'll never disparage someone for wanting to WORK, especially in a shitty job that most other people would rather not do.
I cannot for the life of me figure out why so many USAmericans default to blaming the person who wants to work, versus those who'd hire them.

THAT'S how you stop illegal immigration, if indeed that's something that's desired (which I doubt it actually is, by the business sector).
Don't penalize the worker. Penalize the ones baiting them. Hiring them. Paying them under the table.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tommy1808
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:16 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Don't penalize the worker. Penalize the ones baiting them. Hiring them. Paying them under the table.


If you stop penelizing illegal workers, they may call authorities when:

- safety standards aren't met
- child labor happens
- hygiene standards are not met

And they will generally try to protect their employer from being found out less.

The system is not just set up in a way to make under the table illegal hiring possible, it is in fact set up to give people employing illegal workers a large competitive advantage over those that don't, because their ability to cut corners elsewhere is improved.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aesma
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:53 am

Revelation wrote:
but if you look at how trades are done elsewhere like (largely) in Europe, the trades are respected.


In Germany yes, in France not really. Nothing to do with college though, as trades training begins before high school. In France there is a vision that "you couldn't even make it to high school". In Germany things are more integrated and a diploma gotten with half the time working in a factory is not looked as inferior.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:00 am

Revelation wrote:
but if you look at how trades are done elsewhere like (largely) in Europe, the trades are respected. It's really on us for letting employers get away with hiring illegal labor so easily.


Just some extra information about how it is done in Germany: those trainees learning a trade get paid, they don't pay. It does not have to be much, but if you learn the concrete pouring trade, you can make between 1040 (1st yeat) and 1340 (3rd year) Euros/month. During that time they also attend school, normal classes like math, German or English (or when you are for example a trainee where I live, close to the Dutch Border, Dutch,with the Dutch trainees on the other side learning German) as well as trade related subjects. That is 1,33 days/week. They also have at least 4 weeks paid vacation, more often 5 or 6, just like anybody else. So that pans out to ~9,30 USD/hour 1st and 12 USD/hour 3rd year. When you keep learning, you may earn about as much as the bulk of people with a university degree. And they are not looked down on, Deutsche Bank even had a CEO that had only learned banking trade, with no degree.
Like everybody in a job in Germany that includes single payer health insurance, unemployment insurance and retirement.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Revelation
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:38 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's really on us for letting employers get away with hiring illegal labor so easily.

^ This, this, a thousand times THIS!

I'll never disparage someone for wanting to WORK, especially in a shitty job that most other people would rather not do.
I cannot for the life of me figure out why so many USAmericans default to blaming the person who wants to work, versus those who'd hire them.

THAT'S how you stop illegal immigration, if indeed that's something that's desired (which I doubt it actually is, by the business sector).
Don't penalize the worker. Penalize the ones baiting them. Hiring them. Paying them under the table.

Indeed. The only way to keep illegal immigration in check is to make it unecomomic to immigrate. We saw many leave the US after the great financial collapse of 2008.

The proposed wall is a farce. Like all static things, it's costly to build, costly to maintain, and easily bypassed. Think of the Maginot Line in France. Mostly useless.

A sensible program would be to spend the money auditing businesses thought to be hiring illegals. That would probably pay for itself because of the fines it'd generate.

Al Capone was not taken down by a cop with a gun, he was taken down by an auditor.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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tommy1808
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
The proposed wall is a farce. Like all static things, it's costly to build, costly to maintain, and easily bypassed. Think of the Maginot Line in France. Mostly useless..


And if those construction companies hire illegals to lower their bid and out-compete unionized companies, if those do still exists, exactly nothing will happen to them. Only the workers get deported.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
solarflyer22
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:13 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Not being American, I don't understand why is the loan interest so exorbitantly high.
Surely for education loans the goal is not to make huge profits, is it not?


I can't figure that out either. It was 4-5% for most of the past 30 years. All of a sudden its sky rocketed while tuition prices escalate even higher. I can't see how anyone can afford anything but a state school these days. Its not like home prices either which normally fall 5-10% when mortgage interests rates rise (offsetting the impact). Instead its a double hit on middle class and poor students. Pay high tuition and pay high interest rates. State schools already get less than half their funding from taxes too. Its bizarre, almost as if the US doesn't want to educate itself.
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
People do actually think, that if their country has free education, they are paying for other peoples education, while when education is fully privatized, they have the illusion of not paying for it. As if the higher hiring costs aren´t included in any service or good you buy.

It will come down to simple lack of access to quality services whose providers require degrees, such as medical care.



No, it won't. The marketplace will correct for this, if it's allowed to do so. The entire premise of my prior comments is that government intrusion and overreach have so warped and contorted these normal marketplace movements now.
 
sovietjet
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:30 pm

I have two somewhat conflicting views about this topic.

1) The big problem is that tuition is rising much faster than wages, inflation etc. At the school I went to, tuition was about $21,000 during my first year in 2005. Today, just 12 years later, it is almost $43,000!! So the tuition doubles, but the dollar inflation between 2005 to 2017 is only about 24%. And sure as hell the salaries associated with the degree I got did not double in that time period. The problem is not all about the loans. It is the fact that the schools are left without control to hike up the prices and leave the students no choice. There is simply no way to pay that kind of money while in school. The loans introduce a second problem via the interest rate. My student loans were between 3% and 6%. Now I am hearing that the interest is almost 10%?! That is predatory lending. What next? Put it on a credit card? And sooner or later it will become hard to pay it back even with the salary of a good job achieved through the diploma. So, students are not guilty that the system itself is against them more and more each year. What needs to be done is to have a mandatory tuition cut across the country by 30% or more, and then have a federal regulation that forbids tuition increasing by more than the current inflation rate.

2) This is the second problem. Students are irresponsible. Even if the colleges, banks and everything else is stacked against the students, many still do stupid things. I will use LAX772LR's post to address this:

LAX772LR wrote:
Tell us:
  • Where'd you live after doing it: Major city, or Smalltown USA?
  • Career require a professional degree? (You obviously didn't go to a decent law or medical school, else you'd pay THAT per semester)
  • How many kids did you have at the time? Bet $35K didn't put much a dent in daycare if so.
  • Need/have a car? That's $$$$ right there.
  • Who was paying your insurance at the time?
  • Or better yet, who was paying for lodging and food at the time?
  • You or a child get sick/hurt at any point? After all, that's the primary reason for major debt default in the USA. A week in ICU could easily charge up more money than you claim to have budgeted. Where would your payoff priorities be then?


1) Don't pick a stupid useless career.
2) Don't have kids while in school and straight after school. Get your life together first, work a few years after graduating, pay off the loans and any other debt. Then have kids.
3) A car is important. But a nice car isn't. You can buy a cheap beater for $2-3000 that will be reliable enough and fuel efficient enough. See #2 for when to buy the flashy car. Buy the cheapest insurance and get "liability only". For a beater it should be pretty low.
4) Health insurance? Stay under parents until 26. Otherwise universities offer it.
5) Lodging? Pick a school close to home and commute. Live with parents as long as possible. Do you really need to go to NYU and live in Manhattan? Probably not. If you absolutely must move, find roommates. Also get rid of car if living close to campus.
6) Get a side job. Or two. Or three. When I was in college I worked two jobs, and did two majors simultaneously (mechanical engineering and aerospace engineering). I also had a third job which was periodical, maybe couple of times a month. Basically Monday to Thursday I had school three of the days and worked one of the jobs at night on the day off school. Friday to Sunday I worked the first job 9-4pm and second job 5-9pm. The third job would be on random Fridays between 9-10:30pm. Study and homework in between all that. Rinse and repeat. And yes, there was time for beer pong and partying. That's what Friday and Saturday nights after work were for. Sleep? What sleep? I had barely any days off, and rarely got 8 hours of sleep. Such is college life. So students saying they can't work and go to school is just an excuse for them being lazy. The bottom line is you should work hard during those four years so you don't have to as much later. I ended up getting a master's in engineering after that, and after 6 years of engineering school I had about $40k in loans. I paid off most of that in the first two years after graduating by continuing to live with my parents.

If students make smart choices and cut corners while in college, they will make life much easier later. Many choose not to and instead splurge money they don't have. Or live unrealistically, spending thousands of dollars to live on campus because they want the "college experience" (aka partying on campus and etc). So while on one hand it is not their fault that tuition is skyrocketing and banks are predatory lenders, it is their fault for not being responsible or budgeting correctly.
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:30 pm

sovietjet wrote:
I will use LAX772LR's post to address this:

And I will, of course, pick apart some of the more ridiculous aspects of your rebuttal. ;)
Let's begin:


sovietjet wrote:
1) Don't pick a stupid useless career.

Quit hiding behind such a pathetic cop-out and address Reply#14 in this thread.

This patently simplistic mindset is ASTONISHING to me. Do you not realize that those in the highest and most revered professions in this country tend to be the ones who are most burdened by this concept? Do you actually think that people who get out of top (or even mid) ranked graduate/law/medical/dental/etc schools did so by "partying" for the better part of a decade? Or were there to drive deluxe cars or sleep in luxury properties? Seriously?


sovietjet wrote:
2) Don't have kids while in school and straight after school. Get your life together first, work a few years after graduating, pay off the loans and any other debt. Then have kids.

Because life always work out that way, with perfect family planning, doesn't it?
God forbid that people pursue careers that actually would help them eventually take better care of any kids born earlier than planned.


sovietjet wrote:
You can buy a cheap beater for $2-3000 that will be reliable enough

Orrrrr, you could spend that much on mtx in the first year you have it.
11yrs previously in the car biz, care to guess which outcome I saw more of, with such vehicles?


sovietjet wrote:
4) Health insurance? Stay under parents until 26.

....you do realize that for many who took out their loans pre-2009, that was in no way a guarantee; do you not?


sovietjet wrote:
Otherwise universities offer it.

But not for free. So add a few hundred more $$$$s to that ol' loan balance every semester.


sovietjet wrote:
5) Lodging? Pick a school close to home and commute.

Why do you assume that to be an option?


sovietjet wrote:
Live with parents as long as possible.

Why do you assume that to be an option?


sovietjet wrote:
Do you really need to go to NYU

If you want an LLM to a shot at top tax/estate law, then yes. Of course, why are you using that as if it were some anomaly example? Heck, there's schools that are barely ABA ranked that cost nearly as much as NYU would.


sovietjet wrote:
Also get rid of car if living close to campus.

Until you realize that the premium inherent in doing so, often leaves you worse off than having the car at a cheaper place further away.


sovietjet wrote:
6) Get a side job. Or two. Or three.

Until you realize that organizations (e.g. ABA) suggest you don't, leading many higher schools to even have you sign into their honor code that you won't, leaving you subject to discipline if you do (as plenty still do) and are found out....


sovietjet wrote:
When I was in college I

You can stop right there. Your anecdotal example doesn't refute the difficulties millions of others in completely different scenarios can/do/will face.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
mham001
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:48 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
And if those construction companies hire illegals to lower their bid and out-compete unionized companies, if those do still exists, exactly nothing will happen to them. Only the workers get deported.


All government contracts have prevailing wage stipulations. And yes, employers can and do get busted, even now.

LAX772LR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's really on us for letting employers get away with hiring illegal labor so easily.

^ This, this, a thousand times THIS!

I'll never disparage someone for wanting to WORK, especially in a shitty job that most other people would rather not do.
I cannot for the life of me figure out why so many USAmericans default to blaming the person who wants to work, versus those who'd hire them.

THAT'S how you stop illegal immigration, if indeed that's something that's desired (which I doubt it actually is, by the business sector).
Don't penalize the worker. Penalize the ones baiting them. Hiring them. Paying them under the table.


I don't think you will find any reasonable person, on either side of the aisle, who disagrees with this. The fact that E-verify has been held up by immigrant-rights groups and some business associations for years is one of the main reasons Trump was elected. I would love to see the low-lifes among my competitors busted.
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:53 pm

mham001 wrote:
I don't think you will find any reasonable person, on either side of the aisle, who disagrees with this.

...unfortunately, many (on both sides) are nowhere near "reasonable."

They go for the emotional appeal. And it gets eaten up.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
sovietjet
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:38 am

LAX772LR wrote:
This patently simplistic mindset is ASTONISHING to me. Do you not realize that those in the highest and most revered professions in this country tend to be the ones who are most burdened by this concept? Do you actually think that people who get out of top (or even mid) ranked graduate/law/medical/dental/etc schools did so by "partying" for the better part of a decade? Or were there to drive deluxe cars or sleep in luxury properties? Seriously?


A large part of my friends were in the hard sciences (engineering, medical, law). We partied. A lot. And none of them, or myself, are struggling from loans. People with those degrees can pay off the loans much easier. What I am talking about is someone who takes out the same loans for a 4 year degree in psychology. Who do you think will struggle?

LAX772LR wrote:
Because life always work out that way, with perfect family planning, doesn't it?
God forbid that people pursue careers that actually would help them eventually take better care of any kids born earlier than planned.


If someone has kids before college, i.e. before age 18, then they are a minority. And sure, it can be a teenage mistake and they shouldn't be scarred for life. If you have a kid during college (age 18-23), you're most likely irresponsible or an idiot.

LAX772LR wrote:
Orrrrr, you could spend that much on mtx in the first year you have it.
11yrs previously in the car biz, care to guess which outcome I saw more of, with such vehicles?


Sure it's possible. That's why you buy a Corolla or Civic, not a Mitsubishi Eclipse.

LAX772LR wrote:
....you do realize that for many who took out their loans pre-2009, that was in no way a guarantee; do you not?


That was 8 years ago. A lot of the current debt hike is taken out after 2009.

LAX772LR wrote:
But not for free. So add a few hundred more $$$$s to that ol' loan balance every semester.


A few hundred per semester compared to tens of thousands is the least of your worries.

LAX772LR wrote:
sovietjet wrote:
5) Lodging? Pick a school close to home and commute.

Why do you assume that to be an option?


It isn't for everyone, sure. That's why I included the "if you must move" part. But, many move when they don't have to. I live in Chicago and there are a large amount of suburban kids who move to the city to go to the city colleges. They can commute and save thousands.

LAX772LR wrote:
sovietjet wrote:
6) Get a side job. Or two. Or three.

Until you realize that organizations (e.g. ABA) suggest you don't, leading many higher schools to even have you sign into their honor code that you won't, leaving you subject to discipline if you do (as plenty still do) and are found out....


Don't go to a school which doesn't allow you to work a side job. What kind of stupid rule is that? You can also work under the table. Or even if you work part time who would find out? There are always ways around stupid crap like this.
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:59 am

sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
This patently simplistic mindset is ASTONISHING to me.
A large part of my friends were in the hard sciences (engineering, medical, law). We partied. A lot. And none of them, or myself, are struggling from loans. People with those degrees can pay off the loans much easier. What I am talking about is someone who takes out the same loans for a 4 year degree in psychology. Who do you think will struggle?

Ah yes, the whole "But, the people *I* know, did...." rebuttal.
Hence my quoted opening words. :roll:


sovietjet wrote:
If someone has kids before college, i.e. before age 18, then they are a minority. And sure, it can be a teenage mistake and they shouldn't be scarred for life. If you have a kid during college (age 18-23), you're most likely irresponsible or an idiot.

So in other words, you're going to completely ignore graduate education... ya know, where the concept is far more likely to apply.
Rather disingenuous, don't ya think?


sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Orrrrr, you could spend that much on mtx in the first year you have it.
11yrs previously in the car biz, care to guess which outcome I saw more of, with such vehicles?

Sure it's possible. That's why you buy a Corolla or Civic, not a Mitsubishi Eclipse.

It's not only possible, it's probable.

And if you think Toyotas, Hondas, or any other brand are somehow magically exempt from that; then you might be surprised to learn that they, like any other vehicle in that price range, are not....


sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
....you do realize that for many who took out their loans pre-2009, that was in no way a guarantee; do you not?

That was 8 years ago. A lot of the current debt hike is taken out after 2009.

And "a lot" (as in, the majority prior to the end of last year itself), was not.
So you're just going to ignore that too?


sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Until you realize that organizations (e.g. ABA) suggest you don't, leading many higher schools to even have you sign into their honor code that you won't, leaving you subject to discipline if you do (as plenty still do) and are found out....

Don't go to a school which doesn't allow you to work a side job.

Awesome, you just ruled out nearly every one of the ABA top 100 law schools. Great strategy.


sovietjet wrote:
What kind of stupid rule is that?

A common one.


sovietjet wrote:
You can also work under the table. Or even if you work part time who would find out? There are always ways around stupid crap like this.

Cheat the system and hope to hell that it doesn't affect your performance enough to be found out, to which you'll have no recourse.
Awesome advice.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tommy1808
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:47 am

sovietjet wrote:
Don't go to a school which doesn't allow you to work a side job. What kind of stupid rule is that?


Welcome to the great world of governments applying microeconomics "solutions" to macroeconomic problems.

Banks give out student loans, Banks are shareholders in for-profit education. What do you think would happen.....?

You can also work under the table.


I don´t think the market for blowjobs in restaurants and offices is large enough to make that a universal solution.

Or are you suggesting, they shall work illegally, without paying taxes and social security. But hey.. .those damn illegal immigrants paying taxes and social security are evil!

Or even if you work part time who would find out?


"A McGriddle and a large coffee please.... wait, aren´t you in my class at......"

There are always ways around stupid crap like this.


I assume you play Russian roulette with your friends on the weekend? Because apparently you love risk taking, since you advice people to hide their jobs for years, risking to be kicked out of school an seriously fucking up their CV in the process.
Will you pay the student loans of those that follow your advice if it leads them head on into a wall?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:25 am

sovietjet wrote:


1) Don't pick a stupid useless career.


Ok then. So...



sovietjet wrote:
and did two majors simultaneously (mechanical engineering and aerospace engineering)


Why'd you do that?

I work in civil aerospace and do so with a Mechanical Engineering degree too. Only one of those was necessary. I haven't heard of needing both.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:28 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Ah yes, the whole "But, the people *I* know, did...." rebuttal.
Hence my quoted opening words. :roll:


You continue to ignore this. Yes, people I know. And they know other people. What's wrong with that? These are real examples, not just some news article. All from many different schools. No, these people don't represent every case out there. But it shows there are ways to achieve your goals. And I never said they don't have a lot of debt. All the ones that did medical and law are in ~ quarter million debt. But their salaries are enough that they don't struggle paying $3k a month.

But OK, let's not use people I know. A person goes to school for engineering and comes out with $80k of debt. Another person goes to the same school and does history and comes out also with $80k of debt. Who will have a harder time after that?? It isn't the hard sciences degrees that are struggling, even if they end up with more debt.

LAX772LR wrote:
So in other words, you're going to completely ignore graduate education... ya know, where the concept is far more likely to apply.
Rather disingenuous, don't ya think?


Ok, then if you go to graduate school, don't have kids while in school. Is it that hard? Don't forget that having a child is a choice. Having kids while in school and then complaining about how hard life is is just silly.

LAX772LR wrote:
It's not only possible, it's probable.
And if you think Toyotas, Hondas, or any other brand are somehow magically exempt from that; then you might be surprised to learn that they, like any other vehicle in that price range, are not....


Never said they are exempt. Just a lower risk or probability. Nothing is 100% certain in life. Even a new car can be a lemon.

LAX772LR wrote:
And "a lot" (as in, the majority prior to the end of last year itself), was not.
So you're just going to ignore that too?


According to the article you posted in the beginning of the thread, the debt is now 1.31 trillion and has doubled since 2009. So that means more than 50% of the debt is taken out after 2009. However it is likely much higher. The debt from 2009 should be mostly paid off by now since school loans tend to have 10 year pay off periods, and 8 years have elapsed since then. I don't have data right now but I would guess that 75% or more of the current debt is taken out after 2009. As I said in my original post, this is is a direct result of the tuition almost doubling in that same period.

LAX772LR wrote:
Awesome, you just ruled out nearly every one of the ABA top 100 law schools. Great strategy.


Sure I ruled them out. But what fraction of that $1.31T debt is from those top 100 law schools? Many students are not doing law, and of those that are, even fewer can get accepted in those top 100. You do realize there are other law schools right? If the ABA doesn't allow students to work on the side, it just smells like a scheme to force them to take out even more loans so that the banks can profit.

LAX772LR wrote:

Cheat the system and hope to hell that it doesn't affect your performance enough to be found out, to which you'll have no recourse.
Awesome advice.


You gotta do what you gotta do. All I hear is whining and crying. Bwaaaa I can't go to school and work because of <insert reason here>. There are literally so many jobs one can do without the school ever finding out. If illegal aliens can find work and not be caught surely a student can do the same. When the system is stacked in such a way that you get the short stick, you deal with it and take more drastic measures instead of complaining about it. Or, you can try and change the system, but that is harder. The system does need drastic change though, and soon. Or the bubble will burst sooner or later.

tommy1808 wrote:
Or are you suggesting, they shall work illegally, without paying taxes and social security. But hey.. .those damn illegal immigrants paying taxes and social security are evil!


It's exactly what I am suggesting. And not only because many students are doing it already.

tommy1808 wrote:
"A McGriddle and a large coffee please.... wait, aren´t you in my class at......"


Yes, that can happen if you get a job on campus flipping burgers. Like I said earlier, there are many jobs that can be done. Or you can work further from campus.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Why'd you do that?

I work in civil aerospace and do so with a Mechanical Engineering degree too. Only one of those was necessary. I haven't heard of needing both.


I did both because I took extra courses, combined with the fact that I had several courses credited from high school because I took AP classes. The way the program was made I would've had to be there four years anyway since not every class is offered in fall and spring. The tuition was the same whether I did a double major or not. It was just a matter of personal effort, to take the extra courses. The aerospace classes were fluids related, so I thought it would be helpful if I look for a job in the aerospace field.
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:28 am

sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Ah yes, the whole "But, the people *I* know, did...." rebuttal.
Hence my quoted opening words. :roll:

You continue to ignore this.

How am I "ignoring" it when I put it in direct quotes and then address it???

Do you not understand what an anecdotal comparison is? Believing that those in your immeasurably small circle of acquaintance is reflective of a whole, is essentially the definition of sch.


sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
So in other words, you're going to completely ignore graduate education... ya know, where the concept is far more likely to apply.
Rather disingenuous, don't ya think?

Ok, then if you go to graduate school, don't have kids while in school. Is it that hard? Don't forget that having a child is a choice. Having kids while in school and then complaining about how hard life is is just silly.

^This is the overly-simplistic mindset that I'm referring to... right there.



sovietjet wrote:
since school loans tend to have 10 year pay off periods

Where are you getting that from?


sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Cheat the system and hope to hell that it doesn't affect your performance enough to be found out, to which you'll have no recourse.
Awesome advice.

All I hear is whining and crying.

Because you're approaching a complex issue with the mindset of a simpleton, and then wondering why it doesn't work.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:39 am

LAX772LR wrote:
^This is the overly-simplistic mindset that I'm referring to... right there.


I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell you how a child gets conceived. You either choose to do it or not. Doesn't get any simpler. If you're in school, it is a good idea not to.

LAX772LR wrote:
Where are you getting that from?


Perhaps from the lenders? For example the Perkins loan is one of the most common and they give you ten years to pay it off. As do most others.

LAX772LR wrote:
Because you're approaching a complex issue with the mindset of a simpleton, and then wondering why it doesn't work.


I'd love to hear what you think will fix this complex issue. An individual case is not so complex. The issue as a whole is, sure. But not every student has all the factors that make it complex. The overall issue can be mitigated by reducing tuition and tuition increases, as I said in my first post. But individual cases rely a lot on...individual choices and responsibility. It's like the real estate crash in 2008. Yes, banks and mortgage companies were at fault for giving out the loans. But so were the people trying to take loans beyond their means.
 
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:08 am

sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
^This is the overly-simplistic mindset that I'm referring to... right there.

I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell you how a child gets conceived. You either choose to do it or not. Doesn't get any simpler. If you're in school, it is a good idea not to.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that I do need to inform you that family planning isn't exactly an exact science... mistakes happen, birth control fails, unexpected single parenthood happens--- DAILY.

You don't seem to be aware that these are actually among the strongest factors contributing to people matriculating in secondary education.



sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Where are you getting that from?

Perhaps from the lenders? For example the Perkins loan is one of the most common and they give you ten years to pay it off. As do most others.

1) "Most common?" Sure, maybe two decades ago. Perkins loans are essentially a thing of the past-- did you not know that, as of now, the program isn't even set to be renewed? (unless something's changed in the last few months since I've checked)

2) 10yrs? No, not always. Perkins loans are left to the associate institution's discretion.

3) Also, Perkins loans are capped over a lifetime. They aren't nearly as contributory to the problem here, as say: PLUS loans and unsubsidized Stafford loans... and those are 25yrs, not 10.



sovietjet wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Because you're approaching a complex issue with the mindset of a simpleton, and then wondering why it doesn't work.

I'd love to hear what you think will fix this complex issue.

Answer: nothing short of a catastrophe, for at least one of 4 parties.

1) Graduated students as a whole, which is pretty much what's happening now. Or

2) Lenders holding on the outstanding debt, facing massive defaults. Or

3) Universities, Colleges, and Institutions -- who realistically, are the ones most in need of a hard reboot.
Even if students and/or banks are bailed out, the problem will just manifest again in the near future, so long as it costs the price of a Bentley to get a medical/law/dental/etc degree. Whether it's by the government or by the market, universities are gonna need to figure out a model on how to survive at rates that more people can realistically afford via income.

4) Taxpayers, who might be stuck bailing out any 1 or more of the above.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
blueflyer
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Re: US student loan debt hits record, surpasses oustanding auto debt

Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:46 am

slider wrote:
And we could probably argue ad nauseam about the union angle on this; while it’s true that many labor organizations helped developed craft programs, apprenticeships, and the like, it went off the rails when they then became the complete control freaks and gatekeepers of said trades. It created a barrier to entry all on its own for some!

Interestingly, the same thing is happening at the opposite end of the education cost scale. Access to the profession for some of the most expensive degrees in the US is regulated by state-sanctioned bodies made up of current practitioners that are, frankly, not that different than unions of tradesmen. Current doctors, lawyers, or CPAs are just as financially interested in being the gatekeepers of their profession. Does the public really get better outcomes because these professionals receive 1, 2, 3 or even 4 more years of education than their colleagues from other developed countries, or is it a calculated effort to artificially limit competition by unnecessarily raising the cost of education?

For example, a would-be Texan CPA needs 150 college credits to earn their certification, in other words, more than a bachelor's degree. Yet out of those 150 credits, 96 credits can come from any college-level class from any accredited four-year university. Why not drop the requirements from 96 to, say 66, and make it possible to become a CPA with a bachelor's degree and less debt?

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