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SOBHI51
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How fair are the laws in Israel

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:29 pm

Elor Azara a medic in the Israeli force, who suppose to help injured people, with cold blood shoots a Palestinian already injured,disarmed and kills him.

The fair laws in Israel sentences him to only 18 months of prison, only, in the same time Palestinian children get up to 3.5 years for throwing a stone

Is this fair?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 93126.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/worl ... .html?_r=0
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Dutchy
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:35 pm

It is the court decision not the law in itself. And yes, the Israeli do treat Palestinians harsh, but don't make the mistake to judge a single court case and make a snap judgement without knowing all the facts.
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SOBHI51
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is the court decision not the law in itself. And yes, the Israeli do treat Palestinians harsh, but don't make the mistake to judge a single court case and make a snap judgement without knowing all the facts.



Was not judging, just wondering, but if you do a search you will find a lot of similar cases like the one above.

http://english.wafa.ps/page.aspx?id=Sr4 ... 597aSr4b1Q

https://books.google.com/books?id=sD1lq ... rs&f=false

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israeli-so ... -1.3920444
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
rfields5421
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:00 am

One of the things I find very interesting about law in Israel is civil law as it relates to marriage, divorce, family law.

Basically, each religious group handles their own followers according to the laws of their religion. The government stays out of it all except for record keeping.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
jetwet1
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:21 am

I am amazed that the commodore et al haven't been screaming about this, I hope for once one of these threads can stay civil.

Anyways, in this case, the IDF literately got away with murder, 1 1/2 years is a joke.

With that said, there is something screwy going on with this whole thing, the kids (there were two of them) had just gone through a check point, metal detectors didn't go off and they were cleared, 50 ft away they have knives and are attacking soldiers, the friend is killed and the kid was injured, I wonder where the knives came from ?
 
tommy1808
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:36 am

jetwet1 wrote:
Anyways, in this case, the IDF literately got away with murder, 1 1/2 years is a joke.


In fairness, Soldiers are trained murders, they are trained to do exactly what constitutes murder in any other circumstance: best case is to wipe out an unsuspecting enemy w/o even giving them the chance to fight back or capitulate.
So, yes. 1.5 years is a joke, the people responsible for sending trained murders into a law enforcement situation should be imprisoned.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:17 pm

What are you wondering about? Israel is oppressing the Palestinians and has elements of an apartheid-state. So in the sense it doesn't surprises me that these court rulings, or perhaps the most surprising fact is that he was sentenced.

I have visited Israel in 2007 or so. The things that made the most impression on me, was Yad Vashem, holocaust museum / remembrance center and the border crossing Jerusalem / Bethlehem. As you can guess, for exact the opposite reason.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Pyrex
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Israel is oppressing the Palestinians and has elements of an apartheid-state.


Perhaps if you guys hadn't tried to kill all the Jews there would be no need for a state of Israel. As it stands, it is no wonder if Jews think they have no chance of ever ultimately being able to survive by living exclusively within non-Jewish states.
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Dutchy
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:49 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Israel is oppressing the Palestinians and has elements of an apartheid-state.


Perhaps if you guys hadn't tried to kill all the Jews there would be no need for a state of Israel. As it stands, it is no wonder if Jews think they have no chance of ever ultimately being able to survive by living exclusively within non-Jewish states.


True, it is a debt of honor of Europeans to help Israel. It is the duty of Europe to protect all its citizens, no matter what religion they practice. That said, it doesn't give the right to the Israeli state to do as they please and essentially keep the Palestinians in prison. Human rights in Israel aren't observed as within the EU. Among friends, you can say this right?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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casinterest
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:40 pm

SOBHI51 wrote:
Elor Azara a medic in the Israeli force, who suppose to help injured people, with cold blood shoots a Palestinian already injured,disarmed and kills him.

The fair laws in Israel sentences him to only 18 months of prison, only, in the same time Palestinian children get up to 3.5 years for throwing a stone

Is this fair?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 93126.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/worl ... .html?_r=0


I think by many measures of justice, it is not a fair sentence. This was an unarmed terrorist, who had been subdued. Anyone can go watch the video. They are having a very vocal debate about this sentence in Israel right now .

Things to remember.

1. The Generals and Army were on the prosecution side (they wanted jail time as this soldier basically admitted it was revenge against his friend being stabbed).
2. The nationalists and Army were on the defense side. (They wanted no jail time as they saw this as a defense act against a terrorist)
3. This incident didn't happen in a vacuum. There were many other incidents during that period of open random terrorist attacks against Israeli's by the Palestinians. Tensions were high. Even more so than usual given the status quo in the region.


There is a battle about fairness on this and I think it is a a good debate to have in a democratic country, and I think changes will come about in the Army. Future cases will probably not be so lenient on the soldier.



However I don't think it is fair to title this thread about all the laws of Israel. This wasn't about all the laws. This was about guidelines for a soldier and where the line is drawn for their responsibilities.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
salttee
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:30 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Perhaps if you guys hadn't tried to kill all the Jews there would be no need for a state of Israel. As it stands, it is no wonder if Jews think they have no chance of ever ultimately being able to survive by living exclusively within non-Jewish states.

The Palestinians had been dependable friends to Jewish people for the last two thousand years, they had never engaged in any persecution of Jews. In fact until about the turn of the last century. Jews who lived in the Levant were simply known as "Palestinians".

This came to an end only after the Zionist program of infiltrating Russian Jews into Palestine under the guise of them being "refugees" and thereby beginning the process of stealing the land from its rightful owners came into being.

But you already know that. You're just spewing propaganda.
 
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pvjin
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:55 pm

Of course it isn't fair, but why should Israel act fair in a part of the world where nobody else does? Find me one Middle Eastern country with a legal system that truly treats all people of different ethnicities and religious views equal.

salttee wrote:
This came to an end only after the Zionist program of infiltrating Russian Jews into Palestine under the guise of them being "refugees" and thereby beginning the process of stealing the land from its rightful owners came into being.


There are no "rightful owners" of any land, the only right that has truly existed through history is the right of the strongest. Zionists invaded the land to create their own state, so what? If Israel has no right to exist should Turkey return Anatolia to Greece?
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
salttee
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:24 pm

pvjin wrote:
the only right that has truly existed through history is the right of the strongest. Zionists invaded the land to create their own state, so what?

If the Zionists or their supporters would make the argument that the land is theirs because they were able to take it away from the whimpy olive farmers I might give them a half an ounce of respect for their honesty; but they don't do that. Instead they pretend that they were just defending themselves or that their magic man in the sky gave them special rights to it or some such bullshit.

pvjin wrote:
If Israel has no right to exist should Turkey return Anatolia to Greece?
Are you saying Israel has no right to exist? I never said that.
 
solarflyer22
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:48 am

I'm glad you posted this SOBHI and I've watched this case since I saw the shooting on LiveLeak.com in its unedited format. It kind of confirms my views as I will outline below.

1) The lack of US media coverage of the result was predictable and biased. It should have been front and center but like most Israel unfriendly news, it just doesn't get much airtime. I saw this story for like 1 second on CNN. Any trivial event from Axis of Evil Iran by comparison, is automatically front and center. Iran's temporary ban on Visas for US wrestlers got more airtime than this travesty.
2) Israel has no regard for international law. The IDF are under Geneva Convention just like any army. Shooting a un-threatening civilian is a war crime. Not even mentioned by Israel or US media.
3) I expected no justice from Israel. That was easy to expect if you look at how they handled the death of Rachel Corrie, an AMERICAN no less, that they ran over with a bulldozer (not exaggerating).
4) Its not just the Israel government that is the issue, it is in fact the people and society. Thousands of people were protesting for a pardon, or no prosecution. Huge chunks of the population actually answered in a poll that the murderer was justified! We're talking like 40-50 percent of the population thought it was ok! Even with it clearly on video.

When you have a nation state like Jewish Israel, where the average man is ok with violating the Ten Commandments, WHICH THEY THEMSELVES CREATED, and approve of murder...then you have a culturally and morally bankrupt failed nation state.

I mean literally these guys came up with Thou Shalt Not Kill, Commandment 6. Amazing regression.
 
cpd
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:15 am

SOBHI51 wrote:
Elor Azara a medic in the Israeli force, who suppose to help injured people, with cold blood shoots a Palestinian already injured,disarmed and kills him.

The fair laws in Israel sentences him to only 18 months of prison, only, in the same time Palestinian children get up to 3.5 years for throwing a stone

Is this fair?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 93126.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/worl ... .html?_r=0


The law is not always equal or fair. I ride a bicycle a lot, and under the laws we have here, or at least the way they are implemented, if some motorist should crash into me (deliberately or otherwise) and kill me, or leave me seriously injured for the rest of my life, they are very likely to get a small slap over the wrists or nothing at all.

Maybe in Israel there will be some robust public discussion about the case, and it could change things. Israel should hold itself to a high standard, regardless. That's the best way forward. It cannot succeed by continuing on the path it presently is on. That's just making the situation worse. Or is that want it wants, continued conflict?
 
tommy1808
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:08 am

cpd wrote:
The law is not always equal or fair. I ride a bicycle a lot, and under the laws we have here, or at least the way they are implemented, if some motorist should crash into me (deliberately or otherwise) and kill me, or leave me seriously injured for the rest of my life, they are very likely to get a small slap over the wrists or nothing at all.


And unless they where driving recklessly, didn´t properly maintain their car and such, why would they get more than a slap on the hand? Assuming that they still have to pay for treatment, ongoing if needed, damages and a reasonable amount for pain and suffering.
And how is that unfair in the sense of this threat? If you drive the car, those laws will be equally be applied to you.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Derico
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:38 am

Ultimately the problem is that Israel is trying to be and portray itself as a western democracy... *while* needing to protect its existence from a massive terrorist threat (how have the USA and Europe been doing with balancing democracy with counter-terrorism? Not too well), AND trying to micromanage its internal demographics to keep a certain ethnic mix (can any democracy ultimately succeed there within the laws of a republic?)... AND trying to maintain an identity as a nation-state united by a common RELIGION (IMHO a contradiction in terms), AND also trying to find legal outlets to engage in expansionism while maintaining it is a peaceful democracy, AND trying to control the voting patterns of the population within its borders so that certain groups cannot outvote others...

In short, that mixture of objectives is utterly and completely incompatible with democratic states, no matter how much make-up and legalese you try to use to disguise it.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
tommy1808
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:54 am

Derico wrote:
In short, that mixture of objectives is utterly and completely incompatible with democratic states, no matter how much make-up and legalese you try to use to disguise it.


Tom Clany´s "Patriot Games" has the perfect quote in its preface:

Behind all the political rhetoric being hurled at us from abroad, we are bringing home one unassailable fact -- [terrorism is] a crime by any civilized standard, committed against innocent people, away from the scene of political conflict, and must be dealt with as a crime . . . [I]n our recognition of the nature of terrorism as a crime lies our best hope of dealing with it . . . [L]et us use the tools that we have. Let us invoke the cooperation we have the right to expect around the world, and with that cooperation let us shrink the dark and dank areas of sanctuary until these cowardly marauders are held to answer as criminals in an open and public trial for the crimes they have committed, and receive the punishment they so richly deserve. -WILLIAM H. WEBSTER, Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, October 15,1985


The moment you stop treating terrorism different from any other bad crime, you have lost the fight.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
cpd
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:57 am

tommy1808 wrote:
cpd wrote:
The law is not always equal or fair. I ride a bicycle a lot, and under the laws we have here, or at least the way they are implemented, if some motorist should crash into me (deliberately or otherwise) and kill me, or leave me seriously injured for the rest of my life, they are very likely to get a small slap over the wrists or nothing at all.


And unless they where driving recklessly, didn´t properly maintain their car and such, why would they get more than a slap on the hand? Assuming that they still have to pay for treatment, ongoing if needed, damages and a reasonable amount for pain and suffering.
And how is that unfair in the sense of this threat? If you drive the car, those laws will be equally be applied to you.

best regards
Thomas



They (the car driver) are never treated equally. They can deliberately inflict serious damage (or death) on a rider by driving dangerously and deliberately close (they think it is a fun game) and get away with maybe loss of license, a small fine, or even acquitted. It always happens. You tell me how that is justice?

A wife/husband loses their partner, kids have lost their parent(s) forever. And yet the perpetrator gets away with it, usually on some flimsy excuse. How is that fair?

I would love for some of these cowards to have seen the young teenager I saw in a wheelchair a few years back in the rehabilitation hospital where a friend of mine was recovering. I can still remember that sad/angry look on the face of that young guy as he did laps of the pathway around the building. I was told that he hardly ever spoke a single word to anyone. I will never ever forget that. :(

The rule of law should always be applied fairly and equally.
 
solarflyer22
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:47 am

cpd wrote:
SOBHI51 wrote:
Elor Azara a medic in the Israeli force, who suppose to help injured people, with cold blood shoots a Palestinian already injured,disarmed and kills him.

The fair laws in Israel sentences him to only 18 months of prison, only, in the same time Palestinian children get up to 3.5 years for throwing a stone

Is this fair?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 93126.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/worl ... .html?_r=0


The law is not always equal or fair. I ride a bicycle a lot, and under the laws we have here, or at least the way they are implemented, if some motorist should crash into me (deliberately or otherwise) and kill me, or leave me seriously injured for the rest of my life, they are very likely to get a small slap over the wrists or nothing at all.

Maybe in Israel there will be some robust public discussion about the case, and it could change things. Israel should hold itself to a high standard, regardless. That's the best way forward. It cannot succeed by continuing on the path it presently is on. That's just making the situation worse. Or is that want it wants, continued conflict?


I didnt realize this was a medic which makes it even more appalling. Apparently he didn't take the Hippocratic oath. This is a lot more than just about laws. They just violated the Ten Commandments which they themselves invented only to slap the guy on wrist for it.
 
salttee
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:05 am

cpd wrote:
The rule of law should always be applied fairly and equally.

So we get what is in reality a cry for vengeance without a hint of a solution.

How about if we came up with a paradigm where bicycles were only used for transportation, and the hobbyist bicyclers were to find some other method of entertainment rather than trying to mesh in with vehicles that outweigh them by a factor of twenty and are driven by normal humans trying to get somewhere?
 
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pvjin
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:25 pm

solarflyer22 wrote:
When you have a nation state like Jewish Israel, where the average man is ok with violating the Ten Commandments, WHICH THEY THEMSELVES CREATED, and approve of murder...then you have a culturally and morally bankrupt failed nation state.

I mean literally these guys came up with Thou Shalt Not Kill, Commandment 6. Amazing regression.


You should go read the old testament. It pretty clearly shows that God approves killing people who have different belief system, who have committed a certain kind of a crime or who are at war with you. Judaism, Islam and Christianity are anything but pacifist, the commandment 6 talks about forms of killing that aren't socially acceptable. The old testament doesn't mention Geneva convention, thus I would say God of the old testament would have approved killing of this Palestinian man who attacked the soldiers first.

If Israel is culturally and morally bankrupt failed nation state, then I would argue many of the neighbouring Arab states have no culture and morals at all. Considering the horrible human rights situation in all Arab states I don't see why the world would need another unstable Arab dictatorship called Palestine.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
cpd
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:47 am

salttee wrote:
cpd wrote:
The rule of law should always be applied fairly and equally.

So we get what is in reality a cry for vengeance without a hint of a solution.

How about if we came up with a paradigm where bicycles were only used for transportation, and the hobbyist bicyclers were to find some other method of entertainment rather than trying to mesh in with vehicles that outweigh them by a factor of twenty and are driven by normal humans trying to get somewhere?


Alright, I think we'll need to talk about that in another topic. I also use mine for transport, as it's the only cost and time effective way for me to get about. Using a car to get to work takes 45 minutes more - I've done that before, and it's not an option. I have to leave home even earlier and still get to work later, and then get home even later as well. In any case, we have laws in place to make drivers behave the right way. They are not allowed to pass closer than 1 metre, it is against the law - and very clear cut. Just needs courts to grow a pair and enforce the laws.

Traffic jams are far too bad, and caused by everyone in their little passenger cars driving from their houses nearby a train or bus stop to a work place also near a train station or bus stop. These are so often just office workers, people who don't really have any reason to drive their car. Tradespeople, delivery truck/van drivers, they have a valid reason, but so many of these other people don't have that reason.

This is where a congestion charge might alter behaviour. My city cannot just build more roads, there is nowhere to put them other than underground, but that costs huge amounts of money. Only other solution is compulsory acquisition of homes and land at lower than market value, demolishing those homes, clearing the land and building motorways like that. Houses now usually cost more than $1,000,000, some even $1,600,000 or more. So that's not a viable option either, too expensive by far. Anyhow, this is for another topic and another day.
 
nikeherc
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:22 am

never mind.
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n229nw
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Re: How fair are the laws in Israel

Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:46 am

SOBHI51 wrote:
Elor Azara a medic in the Israeli force, who suppose to help injured people, with cold blood shoots a Palestinian already injured,disarmed and kills him.

The fair laws in Israel sentences him to only 18 months of prison, only, in the same time Palestinian children get up to 3.5 years for throwing a stone

Is this fair?


No it is not fair.

On the other hand, most countries have similar problems with sentencing. Consider all the African-Americans murdered in my country by policemen, even caught on camera, where in many cases the police officer gets away with practically no punishment at all.,

Or how about this story from a couple of days ago?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... t-sentence

That story is outrageous. Not a rape? Not a hate crime? Imagine if the perpetrator had been black and the victim white, or the perpetrator had been Muslim and had been singing songs to the victim about "Death to the Infidels." You think this prosector would be arguing for him to be let off lightly because he was a good kid? Privilege is very real when it comes to sentencing.

I am sure Saudi laws and enforcement are totally unfair too (women punished for reporting rape instead of the rapists being punished, etc.) as are the laws in Russia, Turkey, Zimbabwe, or any corrupt authoritarian regime--but even in most "democratic" societies, there is a power structure that protects the authorities and certain privileged groups from being punished much of the time when they abuse their power--especially when the victim is from a minority that is a scapegoat for society's ills.

I am not trying to defend Israeli policy, which I find abhorrent toward the Palestinians. But stories such as this don't surprise me regardless of where they happen.
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