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Olddog
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:23 am

Could you please start an other thread for Scotland independence ? It is not an EU problem to deal with. Article 50 comes first and is far more important.
 
JJJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:31 am

OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Oil prices are going up, anyway, that should ease the budget.


Although nothing compared to what the SNP were basing their figures on.


No one was expecting 30$ a barrel oil either.

An independent Scotland might have done a Norway and set up a nice fat oil fund, but luckily for the rest of the planet the days of just oil are slowly going away.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:14 pm

Outrage as Spain and EU accused of using Brexit to take back Gibraltar, as MPs say Britain will 'not be bullied'


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... -eu-plans/

Didn't see that coming.....
 
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OA260
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Outrage as Spain and EU accused of using Brexit to take back Gibraltar, as MPs say Britain will 'not be bullied'


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... -eu-plans/

Didn't see that coming.....


Everyone else did ;) Its been on the news tonight and as one MEP said it might be time to remind Spain about their fishing industry after Brexit. I was in Gibraltar in November and they are not going to give anything to Spain.
 
LTenEleven
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:08 pm

OA260 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Outrage as Spain and EU accused of using Brexit to take back Gibraltar, as MPs say Britain will 'not be bullied'


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... -eu-plans/

Didn't see that coming.....


Everyone else did ;) Its been on the news tonight and as one MEP said it might be time to remind Spain about their fishing industry after Brexit. I was in Gibraltar in November and they are not going to give anything to Spain.


The EU has never taken sides on Gibraltar but this statement by an official today sums it up nicely: "The Union will stand up for the interests of its 27 member states”
 
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OA260
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:19 pm

LTenEleven wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


Everyone else did ;) Its been on the news tonight and as one MEP said it might be time to remind Spain about their fishing industry after Brexit. I was in Gibraltar in November and they are not going to give anything to Spain.


The EU has never taken sides on Gibraltar but this statement by an official today sums it up nicely: "The Union will stand up for the interests of its 27 member states”


I would not be worried as long as its the same way they stood up for Cyprus ;)
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:13 pm

Fascinating development as someone who has had business ties with Gibraltar quite recently.
I have seen no apetite in Gibraltar to become part of Spain again. The people would much rather remain a British Overseas Territory.
The EU suggesting that Spain could use this as a bargaining chip is already starting a dangerous game.
Is this in response to the U.K. suggesting the UK could use its vast Intelligence network across Europe as a bargaining chip.
I think this posturing by both sides should stop, and focus on the core issues laid out by the EU, and the UK, and establishing common ground in the middle, as soon as possible.

The Telegraph's Fraser Nelson - who I respect as a journalist and commentator, suggested a point of view today (the link is subscription but was in today's telegraph newspaper) that the UK could very well do ok in a "no deal" scenario. The majority of countries in the world do ok working to WTO rules, and why shouldn't Britain do ok in the same circumstances. The argument being - David Cameron negotiated with Europe for a better deal and failed - Theresa May is set up for the same kind of failure, so surely walking away will be an ultimate better deal than accepting a bad deal from the EU.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:17 pm

A sad day - for all it's shortcomings, the EU has promoted inter-european friendship. People, especially young ones, have never been closer.
On the other hand: not being in the EU for the UK musn't mean that this is all lost.
 
JJJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:21 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Fascinating development as someone who has had business ties with Gibraltar quite recently.
I have seen no apetite in Gibraltar to become part of Spain again. The people would much rather remain a British Overseas Territory.


No one expects they will, but Spain will seize the chance to either force Gibraltar to align their tax policy with Spain or else have the thousands of Gibraltarians enjoying cheaper house prices and more accessible healthcare on the Spanish side pay market prices for it.

Of course thousands of Spanish people also do commute daily to Gibraltar, but la Línea won't have a seat so it's unlikely they'll get anything.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:43 pm

JJJ wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
Fascinating development as someone who has had business ties with Gibraltar quite recently.
I have seen no apetite in Gibraltar to become part of Spain again. The people would much rather remain a British Overseas Territory.


No one expects they will, but Spain will seize the chance to either force Gibraltar to align their tax policy with Spain or else have the thousands of Gibraltarians enjoying cheaper house prices and more accessible healthcare on the Spanish side pay market prices for it.

Of course thousands of Spanish people also do commute daily to Gibraltar, but la Línea won't have a seat so it's unlikely they'll get anything.


I agree with that - I have no idea how the Gibraltarians will react to the issues such as housing, heathcare etc becoming way more complex post brexit.
As I say - another twist in the tale. Maybe something that will have to be agreed in the negotiations - securing rights for Gibraltarians regarding access to Spanish healthcare they have enjoyed for years, being part of the EU. How does Britain react to that? Do we see this as a concession that Britain will give up in negotiations? I really don't know how TM will handle the rights of Gibraltarians who have been used to the benefits of mainland Spain, in this negotiation.

One of the benefits of doing business (hence my involvement recently with a company in Gibraltar) was the tax benefit of doing so..... this could affect a lot of people, and one that TM could ill afford to ignore.
 
JJJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:07 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
Fascinating development as someone who has had business ties with Gibraltar quite recently.
I have seen no apetite in Gibraltar to become part of Spain again. The people would much rather remain a British Overseas Territory.


No one expects they will, but Spain will seize the chance to either force Gibraltar to align their tax policy with Spain or else have the thousands of Gibraltarians enjoying cheaper house prices and more accessible healthcare on the Spanish side pay market prices for it.

Of course thousands of Spanish people also do commute daily to Gibraltar, but la Línea won't have a seat so it's unlikely they'll get anything.


I agree with that - I have no idea how the Gibraltarians will react to the issues such as housing, heathcare etc becoming way more complex post brexit.
As I say - another twist in the tale. Maybe something that will have to be agreed in the negotiations - securing rights for Gibraltarians regarding access to Spanish healthcare they have enjoyed for years, being part of the EU. How does Britain react to that? Do we see this as a concession that Britain will give up in negotiations? I really don't know how TM will handle the rights of Gibraltarians who have been used to the benefits of mainland Spain, in this negotiation.

One of the benefits of doing business (hence my involvement recently with a company in Gibraltar) was the tax benefit of doing so..... this could affect a lot of people, and one that TM could ill afford to ignore.


Why do you think Gibraltar voted something like 96% remain? They aren't fervent europhiles at heart, they just knew they would be thrown under the bus at the first sign of trouble.

Everyone knew it was coming.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:32 pm

JJJ wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

No one expects they will, but Spain will seize the chance to either force Gibraltar to align their tax policy with Spain or else have the thousands of Gibraltarians enjoying cheaper house prices and more accessible healthcare on the Spanish side pay market prices for it.

Of course thousands of Spanish people also do commute daily to Gibraltar, but la Línea won't have a seat so it's unlikely they'll get anything.


I agree with that - I have no idea how the Gibraltarians will react to the issues such as housing, heathcare etc becoming way more complex post brexit.
As I say - another twist in the tale. Maybe something that will have to be agreed in the negotiations - securing rights for Gibraltarians regarding access to Spanish healthcare they have enjoyed for years, being part of the EU. How does Britain react to that? Do we see this as a concession that Britain will give up in negotiations? I really don't know how TM will handle the rights of Gibraltarians who have been used to the benefits of mainland Spain, in this negotiation.

One of the benefits of doing business (hence my involvement recently with a company in Gibraltar) was the tax benefit of doing so..... this could affect a lot of people, and one that TM could ill afford to ignore.


Why do you think Gibraltar voted something like 96% remain? They aren't fervent europhiles at heart, they just knew they would be thrown under the bus at the first sign of trouble.

Everyone knew it was coming.


I hear you - and I'm sure the result was very concerning for the residents of Gibraltar.
Putting the other slant on it - in the 2002 Sovereignty referendum, 99% of Gibraltarians voted to remain as British Overseas Territory Citizens. As such they are bound by the decisions of the UK government over their place in the EU.
Has there been any poll that asks - would you like to remain British Overseas citizens if the UK leaves the EU? That's a genuine question, as I don't know the answer. Kind of reminds me of the England Scotland argument - would you have voted to keep the union together if you had known we would be leaving the EU.
But I wonder how the UK government are going to play this card. They have historically been incredibly protective of their British Overseas Territories in that they are totally committed to them, and won't throw them under a bus (whether this plays out we shall see.....) but have also said, that if a majority of citizens would rather take a different path, they would respect that decision. Interesting times.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:40 pm

As a side comment to the above, I could really see Spain being bloody minded over this and casting a veto over a UK EU Brexit deal if they don't get their way over Gibraltar, and the UK being equally bloody minded by defending their overseas territory and walking away from a deal over this.
The Gibraltar issue needs to be nipped in the bud quickly before it escalates into derailing the whole process.....

The cynical side of me suggests this was pre-meditated. (Like they all aren't already talking in secret..... ) Britain wields the security card - Spain wields the Gibraltar card - both negate each other, put to bed and we move on........
 
Hywel
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:16 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
As a side comment to the above, I could really see Spain being bloody minded over this and casting a veto over a UK EU Brexit deal if they don't get their way over Gibraltar, and the UK being equally bloody minded by defending their overseas territory and walking away from a deal over this.
The Gibraltar issue needs to be nipped in the bud quickly before it escalates into derailing the whole process.....

The cynical side of me suggests this was pre-meditated. (Like they all aren't already talking in secret..... ) Britain wields the security card - Spain wields the Gibraltar card - both negate each other, put to bed and we move on........


If Spain vetoes the Brexit deal, then the UK should officially recognise the independence movement of the Catalonia region in Spain, and start trading relations with them.
 
LTenEleven
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:21 am

The people of Gibraltar are about to discover just how much worth the English (and I am not saying the British) associate with them, despite their loyalty to the UK. Northern Ireland might well discover the same.
 
LJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:37 am

Hywel wrote:
If Spain vetoes the Brexit deal, then the UK should officially recognise the independence movement of the Catalonia region in Spain, and start trading relations with them.


The UK wouldn't so stupid to do that. Then again that would be a very surprising move.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
One of the benefits of doing business (hence my involvement recently with a company in Gibraltar) was the tax benefit of doing so..... this could affect a lot of people, and one that TM could ill afford to ignore.


Forget about the tax benefits. The sole reason why the EU hasn't cracked down on tax shelters is because the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg and Ireland were fierce opponents. When the UK leaves that means that only small countries are against the tax haven regulation are left. Moreover, taxation will be a hot topic in the negociations between the UK and the EU (as the UK already threatened the EU by starting a corporate tax war). This is also imprtant for Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey as they, though not EU member, are represented by the UK and thus had representation within the EU.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
The Gibraltar issue needs to be nipped in the bud quickly before it escalates into derailing the whole process.....


Let's be realistic, it's just one of the lesser important issues in the divorce process (at least for the UK). Yes, it's in the EU document, but do you really think that all EU members care as much as Spain? Moreover, 'the divorce settlement doesn't need to be approved by all EU members (+ Wallonia). It will block any new (trade) agreement though (as this one needs to be approved by all EU members (+Wallonia).
 
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Dano1977
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:41 am

Here is Boris Johnson's statement as Foreign and Commonwealth office minister.

Earlier this evening I called Gibraltar’s Chief Minister Fabian Picardo. I wanted to reiterate that the UK remains implacable and rock-like in our support for Gibraltar. As the Prime Minister herself said earlier this week, we are clear that Gibraltar is covered by our exit negotiations, and we have committed to involving Gibraltar fully in the work that we are doing.
 
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Aesma
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:45 am

I'm not sure what the UK wished to accomplish by threatening to cut the EU off its spying capabilities. We all know these capabilities are used to spy on us on behalf of the US.
 
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OA260
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:02 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:

I agree with that - I have no idea how the Gibraltarians will react to the issues such as housing, heathcare etc becoming way more complex post brexit.
As I say - another twist in the tale. Maybe something that will have to be agreed in the negotiations - securing rights for Gibraltarians regarding access to Spanish healthcare they have enjoyed for years, being part of the EU. How does Britain react to that?


Maybe by securing rights of Spanish who work in the UK visa free and also get free healthcare so I expect a reciprocal deals in the end after all the hot air blows over.
 
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OA260
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:08 am

LTenEleven wrote:
The people of Gibraltar are about to discover just how much worth the English (and I am not saying the British) associate with them, despite their loyalty to the UK. Northern Ireland might well discover the same.


Well of course it might have the opposite effect. When people feel attacked from outsiders they rally around and become more patriotic. In NI for example many who were warming towards the idea of Irish unity were pushed to being very anti anything Irish during the IRA bombing campaigns in the 70's/80's.

As I said before Spanish fisherman could be cut off from the seas they currently enjoy fishing in if Spain were to block a deal.
 
JJJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:11 am

Hywel wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
As a side comment to the above, I could really see Spain being bloody minded over this and casting a veto over a UK EU Brexit deal if they don't get their way over Gibraltar, and the UK being equally bloody minded by defending their overseas territory and walking away from a deal over this.
The Gibraltar issue needs to be nipped in the bud quickly before it escalates into derailing the whole process.....

The cynical side of me suggests this was pre-meditated. (Like they all aren't already talking in secret..... ) Britain wields the security card - Spain wields the Gibraltar card - both negate each other, put to bed and we move on........


If Spain vetoes the Brexit deal, then the UK should officially recognise the independence movement of the Catalonia region in Spain, and start trading relations with them.


Spain has been granted a veto on the status of Gibraltar. A clever move because it isolates the Gib issue from the big talks.

Bad for the Gibraltarians, good for everyone else.

If this means Gibraltar becomes part of the UK (and thus subject to UK taxes) the Spanish govt will call it a major victory.
 
LJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:54 am

I think that some people are mixing up the EU -UK negociation process description, divorce settlement and any new agreement with the UK. The first contains the paragraph on Gibraltar and isn't yet approved by the EU member states (it will be discussed on the Summit of April 29th). The second is the actual divorce settlement and doesn't need to be approved by all EU member states (those discussions come after the process discussion). However, any new agreement should be approved by all EU members + Wallonia. What Spain is doing is sending a message towards the UK that Gibraltar is a discussion point and thus the UK has to give something in return for it, if it wants to continue the present situation. Moreover, it's a bargaining chip for the EU to get the process it desires (first discussing the divorce settlement then the new agreements and not as the UK wants negociates both agreements at the same time (which enables the UK to put more pressure on individual countries as they don't know what to loose before they know what they can get). As such strategically, including this in the initial process discussion with the UK is a smart move as it now knows how much the UK values this and thus can use it to get the negociation process it wants.
 
Olddog
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:55 am

The good thing with UK brexit is that Jersey, Guernsey, Man and Gibraltar will move out of EU space too.
 
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OA260
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:06 am

JJJ wrote:
Hywel wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
As a side comment to the above, I could really see Spain being bloody minded over this and casting a veto over a UK EU Brexit deal if they don't get their way over Gibraltar, and the UK being equally bloody minded by defending their overseas territory and walking away from a deal over this.
The Gibraltar issue needs to be nipped in the bud quickly before it escalates into derailing the whole process.....

The cynical side of me suggests this was pre-meditated. (Like they all aren't already talking in secret..... ) Britain wields the security card - Spain wields the Gibraltar card - both negate each other, put to bed and we move on........


If Spain vetoes the Brexit deal, then the UK should officially recognise the independence movement of the Catalonia region in Spain, and start trading relations with them.


Spain has been granted a veto on the status of Gibraltar. A clever move because it isolates the Gib issue from the big talks.

Bad for the Gibraltarians, good for everyone else.

If this means Gibraltar becomes part of the UK (and thus subject to UK taxes) the Spanish govt will call it a major victory.


Although the UK could grant it special tax status just like the Spanish do the Canary Islands.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:57 am

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-03-31/eus- ... for-talks/
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-03-31/malt ... admission/

So first we're told no deals before final agreement, now we're told that actually we can make a deal before the final agreement and that a trade deal can be reached before we pay up any outstanding money.

Gee, I guess this whole negotiating as a 27 member single unit is pretty complicated for you isn't it? Can't make up your minds at all and then one of the idiots raises the prospect that one country (Spain) can torpedo the whole thing over one little piece of land.

What a stupid way to run a free trade union!
 
JJJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:57 am

OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Hywel wrote:

If Spain vetoes the Brexit deal, then the UK should officially recognise the independence movement of the Catalonia region in Spain, and start trading relations with them.


Spain has been granted a veto on the status of Gibraltar. A clever move because it isolates the Gib issue from the big talks.

Bad for the Gibraltarians, good for everyone else.

If this means Gibraltar becomes part of the UK (and thus subject to UK taxes) the Spanish govt will call it a major victory.


Although the UK could grant it special tax status just like the Spanish do the Canary Islands.


That would mean funnelling most vehicular (private and business) transit through a tax collection point instead of the random searches in place now.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:08 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure what the UK wished to accomplish by threatening to cut the EU off its spying capabilities. We all know these capabilities are used to spy on us on behalf of the US.



Feelings mutual.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... rmany.html
 
LJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:09 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
So first we're told no deals before final agreement, now we're told that actually we can make a deal before the final agreement and that a trade deal can be reached before we pay up any outstanding money.


That depends on when the EU considers the divorce negociations to have reached the point of "sufficient progress". In EUR terms this means that we give you the opportunity to change the moment if we get something in return. Moreover, the Maltese prime minister is very clever to mention that
He has told me he does not believe Britain's final bill for leaving the EU will have to be calculated before trade talks can begin.

Mr Muscat, whose country holds the EU Council's rotating presidency, says only the principles for calculating the bill will have to be agreed.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-03-31/maltese-pm-throws-may-a-lifeline-with-trade-admission/

Which translates into: "First you agree that you have to pay something and also the calculation method (thus almost you agree to the amount) before we start the trade talks". This means that the EU gets what it wants [UK paying a divorce bill] and still looking like you're not the one who is the bad guy.

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Gee, I guess this whole negotiating as a 27 member single unit is pretty complicated for you isn't it? Can't make up your minds at all and then one of the idiots raises the prospect that one country (Spain) can torpedo the whole thing over one little piece of land.


You clearly have difficulty in reading what EU politicians actually say. Though saying the same thing it's much more politically correct to say it this way then the way Mr tusk said it yesterday and on Wednesday.
 
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Aesma
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:00 pm

Actually the 27 countries part hasn't come up yet. Here you're just hearing the president of the European Council, then the PM of Malta on behalf of Malta, the country holding the presidency of the Council of the European Union (notice the closeness of name for two unrelated institutions) until June. Previously you've heard the chief Brexit negotiator for the talks, Michel Barnier.

The EU is not just a free trade union, it's my understanding that's why the UK is leaving.

The argument that they joined not knowing that is ludicrous though, from the start the European Coal and Steel Community was conceived as a political entity to favor cooperation over war.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:18 pm

Aesma wrote:
The EU is not just a free trade union, it's my understanding that's why the UK is leaving.


The Britts are leaving because because the choose to in the referendum. Why people voted to leave, that is quite divers. You can't say it is one reason. Free trade and free moment of people and services is part of it.
 
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seahawk
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:30 pm

British press making a a mountain out of a mole hill. Spain does not want Gibraltar back, however they will have a veto power about any special solutions found with regards to Gibraltar, which makes sense, as they are the country which is afflicted by any such special solutions in the end.

Just a basic fault in the British line of thought. You can not expect to limit the freedom of movement from Spaniards to UK territory, but expect Spain to be happy with the citizens of Gibraltar freely moving to Spain. Imho what we are seeing is the government preparing for the shit storm that will hit, once the disadvantages for the people of Gibraltar hitting home. Simple case of trying to change a "what have you done" to a "it is inconvenient, but we have defended you" position.
 
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OA260
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:55 pm

seahawk wrote:
Spain does not want Gibraltar back


Spanish Foreign Affairs Minister, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo openly stated that he believes that Brexit offers an opportunity for Spain to finally retake control of peninsula, before leaving the office in late 2016.

"It’s a unique historical opportunity in more than three hundred years to get Gibraltar back," he said, again proposing shared control and leaving Gibraltar to continue to manage its own affairs.

http://www.newstalk.com/After-300-years ... altar-back
 
JJJ
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:38 pm

OA260 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Spain does not want Gibraltar back


Spanish Foreign Affairs Minister, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo openly stated that he believes that Brexit offers an opportunity for Spain to finally retake control of peninsula, before leaving the office in late 2016.

"It’s a unique historical opportunity in more than three hundred years to get Gibraltar back," he said, again proposing shared control and leaving Gibraltar to continue to manage its own affairs.

http://www.newstalk.com/After-300-years ... altar-back


PR-talk. No one expects Gibraltarians (who voted 99% to remain British) to accept Spanish rule overnight.

But the situation gives an excellent opportunity to smooth the border situation.
 
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seahawk
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:43 pm

OA260 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Spain does not want Gibraltar back


Spanish Foreign Affairs Minister, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo openly stated that he believes that Brexit offers an opportunity for Spain to finally retake control of peninsula, before leaving the office in late 2016.

"It’s a unique historical opportunity in more than three hundred years to get Gibraltar back," he said, again proposing shared control and leaving Gibraltar to continue to manage its own affairs.

http://www.newstalk.com/After-300-years ... altar-back


Who could disagree with that. Depending on the outcome, becoming a part of Spain might look good to the people of Gibraltar who voted "remain" by over 90%.
 
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scbriml
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:37 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure what the UK wished to accomplish by threatening to cut the EU off its spying capabilities. We all know these capabilities are used to spy on us on behalf of the US.


Do you really think France doesn't spy on the UK? :rotfl:

seahawk wrote:
Spain does not want Gibraltar back


Year, and the Sun doesn't rise in the East each day. :sarcastic:

One is tempted to wonder why, if they don't want it back, they make such a bloody fuss about it (after they've had their siesta). :rotfl:
 
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seahawk
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:16 pm

Sure they want it back, but it was the UK who decided to leave the EU for a more nationalistic course and now does act like the victim, when other nations have national interests, after the UK has said goodbye to the idea of a largely unified Europe. Obviously Spain now has interests, like border control, access to and from Gibraltar, territorial waters etc. Depending on the way the UK chooses, Gibraltar could be a thorn in their side again.
 
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Aesma
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:19 pm

No, I think we do some spying, but we don't have the NSA's budget.
 
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OA260
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:35 pm

seahawk wrote:
Spain does not want Gibraltar back


seahawk wrote:
Sure they want it back



:confused: :confused:
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:38 pm

As I remember, England, having formally triggered it's exit from the EU cannot reverse itself without a unanimous vote of the EU states. At this point I suspect it inevitable that Scotland will vote to withdraw from the United Kingdom, and that England will have to agree. NI is more complicated, but what if the Republic of Ireland offers to extend citizenship to current residents of NI?
 
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OA260
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:05 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
NI is more complicated, but what if the Republic of Ireland offers to extend citizenship to current residents of NI?


It does already to the vast majority :


A Born on the island of Ireland on or before 31 December 2004 Entitled to Irish citizenship
B Born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 Entitled to Irish citizenship if one or both of your parents:

Is Irish
Is British or entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency
Is a foreign national legally resident in the island of Ireland for 3 out of 4 years immediately prior to your birth
Has been granted refugee status in Ireland

Also if you are an EU citizen and lived for 5 consecutive years anywhere on the Island of Ireland you can apply for Irish citizenship.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:28 pm

Fascinating!
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:37 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
At this point I suspect it inevitable that Scotland will vote to withdraw from the United Kingdom,


Hi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p ... um_polling

frmrCapCadet wrote:
As I remember, England, having formally triggered it's exit from the EU cannot reverse itself without a unanimous vote of the EU states.


Do you mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Last time I checked there isn't an "English" government.
 
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scbriml
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:07 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
As I remember, England, having formally triggered it's exit from the EU cannot reverse itself without a unanimous vote of the EU states.


Do you mean the UK? England is not an EU member state, just as Scotland isn't.

Until Brexit is complete, the UK is a full member of the EU. If, but it won't happen, Article 50 was withdrawn, we would continue to be a full member.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:39 am

England, and Wales, will stand alone on this. At this point Great Britain is 'dead man walking'. England will muddle through. I doubt that Scotland and NI will muddle with them.
 
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seahawk
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:46 am

OA260 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Spain does not want Gibraltar back


seahawk wrote:
Sure they want it back



:confused: :confused:


I meant, they do not want it back more suddenly. With the UK in the EU it was no longer hugely important who actually controlled the piece of land, as people and goods could move freely. The Brexit will change this. But the basic point is that it is not Spain who suddenly went to a nationalistic attitude with the aim of getting the rock back, it was the UK who went on a policy which aimed to keep Spaniards out.

I am already expecting the pro Brexit press to declare that "Germany wants revenge for the war", "France wants to strip the Brits of the houses they own in France", "Spain wants to retake Gibraltar" and so on.
It is all a preparation for a hard Brexit and exactly the same means used in the Brexit vote, which is to increase nationalistic feelings. For me Brexit negotiations will fail, simply because the interests are too different. You will never find a solution that restricts the movement of people from Poland and Eastern Europe to the UK, but does not restrict the movement of people from the UK to France or Spain.
 
Olddog
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:17 am

For me a hard brexit is a good thing.
It seems to me that british citizens are not comfortable with the EU idea and see it more like a candy store.
Let the brexit happen and we will see ten or twenty years later what will be the situation for the EU and the UK. It will maybe better to build fresh relationship from scratch.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:42 am

seahawk wrote:
You will never find a solution that restricts the movement of people from Poland and Eastern Europe to the UK, but does not restrict the movement of people from the UK to France or Spain.


I think they will, one of the things the EU did wrong and the reason why in many western european countries some people are against the EU. Unfair competition from workers from Eastern European countries. So I actually thing this will have to dealt with for the sake of the whole union, not just Britain.
 
Olddog
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:05 am

No. It is the same problem we had and in some case still have in some countries. Some area are richer than others. Only the scale is different and will need more time to settle down.
 
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seahawk
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
You will never find a solution that restricts the movement of people from Poland and Eastern Europe to the UK, but does not restrict the movement of people from the UK to France or Spain.


I think they will, one of the things the EU did wrong and the reason why in many western european countries some people are against the EU. Unfair competition from workers from Eastern European countries. So I actually thing this will have to dealt with for the sake of the whole union, not just Britain.


Such solutions were already in place when the UK was in the EU and if they would have stayed, I am sure countries like Germany, the Netherlands, France, Austria would have backed a new regulation in this regard. Now they are splitting from the EU and every single EU member needs to agree to the new status. But as the UK no longer wants to pay to the EU and so does no longer want to help develop the Eastern European countries, there is no reason for them to agree to such a deal. I also see no motivation from the other EU countries to compensate the Eastern Europeans in benefit of the UK.
 
tommy1808
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Re: UK EU Withdrawal Starts - Article 50 Invoked

Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
Unfair competition from workers from Eastern European countries.


How are they competing unfair, aside of lower wages enabled by lower costs of living?

Best regards
Thomas

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