Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 1:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That's conveniently cut: "Any deal which gives the UK equal or better rights without the costs is unreasonable. That is freeloading."

Makes no difference where it is cut - you still said that we have been freeloading in the past "like in the past they did with all the exemptions".

Dutchy wrote:
So do you feel Britain is entitled to equal or better rights without the cost?

No, of course not. We have clearly stated that we would be happy to continue to pay the cost of being in the single market. What we are not happy to pay is the cost of the political union, nor that of propping up the failing economies of other EU members. There is no way that the single market itself costs in total anywhere close to even a small proportion of the UK's current contribution. Yet many in the EU seem to think that we should continue to pay pretty much the same amount for access.

i.e. we would prefer to go back to what we actually signed up for. But I doubt very much that that would be acceptable to the EU. They need a lot more money than that to stop the EU collapsing.

It is probably pointless pointing out that, currently, considerably fewer than half of the EU member countries are net contributors to the EU budget so, in reality, more than half of the current EU members are not paying anything at all for access to the single market. Yet the UK must pay many billions?

Dutchy wrote:
And is this entitlement based on WWII?

No, of course it isn't.
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 1:07 pm

olle wrote:
Swedens total spending of EU is around 25% of UK spending. Our poulation is 10 million UK 60 million. I think that UK story about how big the payments is is not wellcome in Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia. Why should we payfor UK?

You might want to apply the same logic to all of the other countries that are not leaving, that you will still be paying for.

seahawk wrote:
The Uk enjoyed some nice rebates during the time in the EU.

And yet was still one of the biggest net contributors.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3766
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position7

Sat May 06, 2017 2:06 pm

speedbored wrote:

JJJ wrote:
but more worryingly very little in the way of knowledge of how the EU and international politics work.

I think you'll find that most of us have a very good grasp of those - that is why we voted to leave.


Do you? I believe the May cabinet needs your skills right now because they have shown time and again they don't.
 
BCal Dc10
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:47 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 2:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
Ok I have to say, as an independent observer from the other side of the Atlantic, this thread is one of the funniest (in a sad way) I have ever read.

I welcome an independent observer and yes, it has been quite heated up, but it is important to the future of Europe, I would say.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
From one side, I see the scorned woman posts of the EUrophiles - the bitchy nasty comments about the UK, how useless they are, how incompetent, how terrible and crazy their government are. You sound a bit crazy. Calm down a bit. The UK hasn't got to where it is in the world right now, by being totally incompetent, as well you know it.

Please distinguish between their current government and the UK as a whole. I feel PM May and her government are in a panic and they aren't on top of things and aren't doing the best thing with dealing with this situation.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
I see hardly any posts from UK members - I mean why would they post here in such a hostile environment. Not one of the EU posters here has said anything positive about the UK leaving the EU. Why would you not say - congratulations on your democratic decision, yes there are bills to reconcile, agreements on reciprocal nationals living in each other's jurisdictions etc, but once we work it out, I hope you go on to work it out and be sucessful.
Why all the animosity from the EUrophiles in this forum?

I can only speak for myself, but I have nothing positive to say about the Brexit, it is a loose - loose. Not going to chear along, sorry.
But like I have said before, I wish Britain all the best, and hopefully, we can reach an accommodation like the Norwegians have, then the effect will be minimized, the best outcome for everyone, but not the most likely outcome if you look at why the referendum was there in the first place and the drive to a hard Brexit from Theresa May. The conservatives seems likely to win these elections. A hard Brexit will be the real loose - loose outcome.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
After the General, I would expect to see a very different tone in the negotiations, - much more conciliatory, willing to negotiate, do a deal.
Hopefully yes, but rhetoric really can damage relations and can maneuver someone into a place she doesn't want to be.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
I think - I forget who is in charge of the EU - so many unelected heads of state - who is it - Junker? Tusk? I forget. Anyway - who is briefing them should be fired. Stop briefing Germany first. Agree to brief only the EU27 and no individual states, and cross fingers for some sort of deal.
Whom is in charge? The council of heads of state of the remaining 27 countries, democratically controlled by the 27 democratically elected parliaments. Junker is kind of the head of the EU civil servants, with his council. Tusk is the permanent foreman/spokesperson of the council of heads of state, he hasn't have any powers. The EU isn't one country, it is a supra national body, so no EU head of state.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
I think a deal that benefits both sides would be good for all EU states and the UK. Let's be positive. I hate this negativity on this discussion right now.

From my perspective, it is damage control in this loose-loose situation. So the best we can hope for is a minimal impact.


Hi, thanks for taking the time to give me a detailed response to my ramblings. It's always appreciated.
I get your point about it being loose loose. I can see it only affecting both parties in a negative way. I guess my point was that now it is happening, I would hope all parties would try for a good outcome - I still think the timing of the UK GE isn't helping - and get that out of the way June 8 and things will calm down a bit. The UK government talk is rather aggressive right now - but I do wonder how much of this is electioneering - rather than brexit negotiating. But will that harm the UK position coming forward. They might come to regret some of this agressive electioneering further down the line....

Is there a reason why Junker - or his PS is briefing Germany after the Downing Street Dinner event that has been much talked about in the press?

Another question I had was about the rhetoric coming out of big EU countries like France and Germany etc. The need to make this painful. Make other countries take note and remind them that leaving isn't a park walk. So why is that? I thought the EU is like the perfect organisation. The UK is crazy loopy for leaving. So why the need to frighten other countries into toeing the line. If your perfect organisation is so perfect, no one else in their right mind would leave - right?
 
BCal Dc10
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:47 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 2:48 pm

Another question for you EU folks out there - now your Number 1 troublemaker is leaving the club - who is going to become your new right royal pain in the ass?
Sweden? Poland? France? Someone has to pick up that baton and run with it right? :lol:
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 2:57 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Another question for you EU folks out there - now your Number 1 troublemaker is leaving the club - who is going to become your new right royal pain in the ass?
Sweden? Poland? France? Someone has to pick up that baton and run with it right? :lol:


I'd put money on Viktor Orban in Hungary.

Did always annoy me how Eurosceptics would fawn over him doing some really dodgy things just because he was a Eurosceptic himself.
 
LAH1
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 3:46 pm

speedbored wrote:
olle wrote:
Swedens total spending of EU is around 25% of UK spending. Our poulation is 10 million UK 60 million. I think that UK story about how big the payments is is not wellcome in Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia. Why should we payfor UK?

You might want to apply the same logic to all of the other countries that are not leaving, that you will still be paying for.

seahawk wrote:
The Uk enjoyed some nice rebates during the time in the EU.

And yet was still one of the biggest net contributors.


Which is what it all comes down to in the end. The EU are so desperate not to lose (not loose) the flow of £ into the pot that all the threats and rancour - yes there are threats coming from both sides - are designed to put the fear of God into the leavers to either wrench out a payment which they think they can justify or make the UK government scared to do anything but agree to a soft brexit which in turn would mean a continuation of some money flow.

Some honest dealing on both sides would facilitate an agreement that would be positive to both sides. Pity neither side seems to appreciate that at the moment.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9750
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 4:06 pm

speedbored wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The Uk enjoyed some nice rebates during the time in the EU.

And yet was still one of the biggest net contributors.

Depends on what you look at. Overall yes, but per capita not so much. But in the end I understand that you do not want to transfer more money to Eastern Europe and this is a legitimate wish.
 
olle
Posts: 2471
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 4:48 pm

The major contribution of money has been going to a modern version of the marshal support.

Scandinavia and Germany close to Soviet union and kommunist east europe has been quit happy to ensure the freedom of Poland, Baltic states etc. UK was in 1989 even not convinced to open the wall between east and west.
UK does not seem to agree of this distribution.

EU as organisation uses very small quantaty of resources fof admin compared to any other goverment.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 4:59 pm

What will prolly happen now is trying to move forward on a roadmap we hear a lot lately: create an inner circle with the nation interested (founding members and others like spain) for more and more integration. The second circle should probably evolve to join in over time.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3766
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 5:12 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:

Another question I had was about the rhetoric coming out of big EU countries like France and Germany etc. The need to make this painful.


EU tells UK: 'We will not punish you. Brexit is punishment enough'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 59371.html
 
Olddog
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 5:18 pm

JJJ wrote:
EU tells UK: 'We will not punish you. Brexit is punishment enough'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 59371.html


It is what we posted here since last year and the answer we got was the UK is so important that the EU will break its rules for us. Tough luck..
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 720
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 5:25 pm

Olddog wrote:
The second world war argument is old and exhausted. The main reason you could resist is just due to the fact that England is an island, not miraculous will of bravery .


Those lucky Northern Irelanders, Scottish and Welsh, not having to make sacrifices, and just being able to watch as neutral bystanders. :sarcastic:
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 5:41 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The second world war argument is old and exhausted. The main reason you could resist is just due to the fact that England is an island, not miraculous will of bravery .


Those lucky Northern Irelanders, Scottish and Welsh, not having to make sacrifices, and just being able to watch as neutral bystanders. :sarcastic:


Yes, the failure of them to differentiate between what England is and what the United Kingdom as a whole is has become rather tiresome.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 5:45 pm

It is not a failure: what you call battle of britain is called bataille d'angleterre here. None call that united kingdom' s battle. Wonder what name is given in other european countries.
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 5:59 pm

Olddog wrote:
It is not a failure: what you call battle of britain is called bataille d'angleterre here. None call that united kingdom' s battle. Wonder what name is given in other european countries.


It took place in British airspace over the British isles, I would say Battle of Britain is a pretty appropriate title for it.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 6:05 pm

Well I won't rewrite history books for an argument here :P
 
LJ
Posts: 5383
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 6:21 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Another question for you EU folks out there - now your Number 1 troublemaker is leaving the club - who is going to become your new right royal pain in the ass?
Sweden? Poland? France? Someone has to pick up that baton and run with it right? :lol:


Judging by the current climate:
1. Turkey (not even an EU member)
2. Hungary
3. Poland
4. Italy (time bomb waiting to explode)

Then again, if the UK leaves it may shake up the EU and if that means the two-speed EU proposals are accepted than we've gained a lot (and then have to thank the UK for opening our eyes). Would be ironic though, the UK leaves the EU because it couldn't reform, yet the moment it leaves it actually reforms. Heck even Strassburg seems on the table again.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 8:12 pm

Olddog wrote:
It is not a failure: what you call battle of britain is called bataille d'angleterre here. None call that united kingdom' s battle. Wonder what name is given in other european countries.


Slag om Engeland --> battle for England :D

Same thing here, Holland of the kingdom of the Netherlands. North and South Holland are two provinces of the 12 we have. I don't mind if someone calls my country Holland. Who cares, you know what is meant right?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 8:20 pm

LJ wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
Another question for you EU folks out there - now your Number 1 troublemaker is leaving the club - who is going to become your new right royal pain in the ass?
Sweden? Poland? France? Someone has to pick up that baton and run with it right? :lol:


Judging by the current climate:
1. Turkey (not even an EU member)
2. Hungary
3. Poland
4. Italy (time bomb waiting to explode)

Then again, if the UK leaves it may shake up the EU and if that means the two-speed EU proposals are accepted than we've gained a lot (and then have to thank the UK for opening our eyes). Would be ironic though, the UK leaves the EU because it couldn't reform, yet the moment it leaves it actually reforms. Heck even Strassburg seems on the table again.


I agree with that list, although Poland seems to get some opposition from within. Italy might be a financial timebomb which might be going to explode, but I don't think it will be a pain in the ass for the EU as such.

Yup, the EU should not waste a good crisis like this. Marcon (if elected tomorrow) will shake up things quite a bit. So the two speed EU should become a reality and so we could resolve some issues.
Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria (probably the Baltic states too), France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy (Greece because of the Euro thing), Luxembourg, will form the spearhead group of the EU, and the rest will follow.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 8:42 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:
I get your point about it being loose loose. I can see it only affecting both parties in a negative way. I guess my point was that now it is happening, I would hope all parties would try for a good outcome - I still think the timing of the UK GE isn't helping - and get that out of the way June 8 and things will calm down a bit. The UK government talk is rather aggressive right now - but I do wonder how much of this is electioneering - rather than brexit negotiating. But will that harm the UK position coming forward. They might come to regret some of this agressive electioneering further down the line....

I think you right, lots of rhetoric right now, UKIP was wiped away in the local elections. Hopefully, things will calm down a bit after the elections and reasonable points of view are taking so we can strive to minimize the damage for all.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Is there a reason why Junker - or his PS is briefing Germany after the Downing Street Dinner event that has been much talked about in the press?

Don't know.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Another question I had was about the rhetoric coming out of big EU countries like France and Germany etc. The need to make this painful. Make other countries take note and remind them that leaving isn't a park walk. So why is that? I thought the EU is like the perfect organisation. The UK is crazy loopy for leaving. So why the need to frighten other countries into toeing the line. If your perfect organisation is so perfect, no one else in their right mind would leave - right?

You have to understand, most of the establishment in most countries don't want to leave at all, the same with Britain - even May -. So it might be more directed to the people. I think it is kind of a reflex in Brussels and is counter productive. You saw the same thing happening in The Netherlands with the 2007 referendum and again with the Ukraine referendum. The rhetoric that if you voted against the EU, hell would break out in the EU. I don't subscribe to that and it is counter productive. People rightfully are not impressed by this argument. The EU must listen to the people, there are real concerns and need to be addressed if not, the resistance will grow and that will undermine the EU. In general, the EU is good for the member nations, but that doesn't mean that everyone wins, some will win, some will loose.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BCal Dc10
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:47 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 9:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
I get your point about it being loose loose. I can see it only affecting both parties in a negative way. I guess my point was that now it is happening, I would hope all parties would try for a good outcome - I still think the timing of the UK GE isn't helping - and get that out of the way June 8 and things will calm down a bit. The UK government talk is rather aggressive right now - but I do wonder how much of this is electioneering - rather than brexit negotiating. But will that harm the UK position coming forward. They might come to regret some of this agressive electioneering further down the line....

I think you right, lots of rhetoric right now, UKIP was wiped away in the local elections. Hopefully, things will calm down a bit after the elections and reasonable points of view are taking so we can strive to minimize the damage for all.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Is there a reason why Junker - or his PS is briefing Germany after the Downing Street Dinner event that has been much talked about in the press?

Don't know.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Another question I had was about the rhetoric coming out of big EU countries like France and Germany etc. The need to make this painful. Make other countries take note and remind them that leaving isn't a park walk. So why is that? I thought the EU is like the perfect organisation. The UK is crazy loopy for leaving. So why the need to frighten other countries into toeing the line. If your perfect organisation is so perfect, no one else in their right mind would leave - right?


You have to understand, most of the establishment in most countries don't want to leave at all, the same with Britain - even May -. So it might be more directed to the people. I think it is kind of a reflex in Brussels and is counter productive. You saw the same thing happening in The Netherlands with the 2007 referendum and again with the Ukraine referendum. The rhetoric that if you voted against the EU, hell would break out in the EU. I don't subscribe to that and it is counter productive. People rightfully are not impressed by this argument. The EU must listen to the people, there are real concerns and need to be addressed if not, the resistance will grow and that will undermine the EU. In general, the EU is good for the member nations, but that doesn't mean that everyone wins, some will win, some will loose.


I appreciate your considered and sensible argument - I wish others on this forum were able to argue their opinion as clearly and with less emotion as you do Dutchy, so I appreciate your patience with helping me understand the issues.

If you don't mind me asking, in your opinion, who do you consider to be current losers from the existing set up? Who is getting the shitty end of the stick? And therefore who is more likely to be watching closely how the UK manages this unholy shit show of an exit?

Do you think the EU (as in the central goverment - Junker, Tusk and their organizations) listens to the people, hears their concerns? Or is it just a steamroller forward to greater integration? And who is driving that? Germany? France?
What is the ultimate goal here? Who, for example, would like to see a United States of Europe - similar to the USA?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 10:27 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
I get your point about it being loose loose. I can see it only affecting both parties in a negative way. I guess my point was that now it is happening, I would hope all parties would try for a good outcome - I still think the timing of the UK GE isn't helping - and get that out of the way June 8 and things will calm down a bit. The UK government talk is rather aggressive right now - but I do wonder how much of this is electioneering - rather than brexit negotiating. But will that harm the UK position coming forward. They might come to regret some of this agressive electioneering further down the line....

I think you right, lots of rhetoric right now, UKIP was wiped away in the local elections. Hopefully, things will calm down a bit after the elections and reasonable points of view are taking so we can strive to minimize the damage for all.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Is there a reason why Junker - or his PS is briefing Germany after the Downing Street Dinner event that has been much talked about in the press?

Don't know.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Another question I had was about the rhetoric coming out of big EU countries like France and Germany etc. The need to make this painful. Make other countries take note and remind them that leaving isn't a park walk. So why is that? I thought the EU is like the perfect organisation. The UK is crazy loopy for leaving. So why the need to frighten other countries into toeing the line. If your perfect organisation is so perfect, no one else in their right mind would leave - right?


You have to understand, most of the establishment in most countries don't want to leave at all, the same with Britain - even May -. So it might be more directed to the people. I think it is kind of a reflex in Brussels and is counter productive. You saw the same thing happening in The Netherlands with the 2007 referendum and again with the Ukraine referendum. The rhetoric that if you voted against the EU, hell would break out in the EU. I don't subscribe to that and it is counter productive. People rightfully are not impressed by this argument. The EU must listen to the people, there are real concerns and need to be addressed if not, the resistance will grow and that will undermine the EU. In general, the EU is good for the member nations, but that doesn't mean that everyone wins, some will win, some will loose.


I appreciate your considered and sensible argument - I wish others on this forum were able to argue their opinion as clearly and with less emotion as you do Dutchy, so I appreciate your patience with helping me understand the issues.

Thank you, those are kind words. Always happy to share my views with anyone.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, in your opinion, who do you consider to be current losers from the existing set up? Who is getting the shitty end of the stick? And therefore who is more likely to be watching closely how the UK manages this unholy shit show of an exit?

I was more talking about within society as a whole. People whom got the shitty end of the stick? Mostly the lower classes in society who get more competition from eastern European countries either transferring work to lower cost countries (outsourcing, KLM, for example, is outsourcing part of its administration to Hungary I believe, but also car companies setting up shop in Eastern/Central Europe) or in competition with Eastern European people whom come to western European countries and compete on the job marked or undercut wages with their "companies". That is not just the EU, but the globalization trend as a whole. If you look whom benefitted from this --> people from developing nations and the rich in deverloped nations, middle and lower classes actually lost in the globalization trend. So I do think these people have a legitimate complain which needs to be addressed.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Do you think the EU (as in the central goverment - Junker, Tusk and their organizations) listens to the people, hears their concerns? Or is it just a steamroller forward to greater integration? And who is driving that? Germany? France?
What is the ultimate goal here? Who, for example, would like to see a United States of Europe - similar to the USA?

I don't want to be pedantic, but the EU doesn't have a central government as such, it has some institutions to help with enabling policies which got set out by the European council of heads of state/ministers and accorded by the European parliament. But it is important to understand how difficult it is to get anything done in Europe because of this structure and actually the council of heads of state/minister are all powerful so they need to reach an agreement first, a compromise of all the different interests. For the problem mentioned above, logically Eastern/central European countries aren't too eager to give up the right to the freedom of movement for its people of the freedom of services which leads to all kind of companies set up in low-income countries whom going to perform work in western countries and undercutting local businesses. So in that context, do they listen enough, I think not, nor do the ministers from each country do a good job conveying these concerns. The same mechanism you see in your country, whom really listen to the concerns of the rust belt workers? Hopefully, they will, now they have been warned by the Brexit, Trumps election, Dutch Ukraine referendum etc. etc. etc.
As for greater EU integration, some contries do want to, some don't/can't. That's why some people are promoting the EU with two different speeds, one track for a faster integration process and one with less integration. Perhaps that is a nice solution and also could work for the competition problem.
"What is the ultimate goal here?" that is the age old question, a fraction would indeed push for full integration and another fraction believes in nationstates. There is no consensus and that is a problem, working towards something without having a stip on the horizon to work towards too.

If you would ask me, I am in favor of a united state of Europe, something like the bondeslander in Germany, with decision making on an as low as possible level.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BCal Dc10
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:47 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 06, 2017 11:33 pm

Thanks for that Dutchy - I'm learning every day. I hope my questions aren't annoying - I am fascinated by this process, and learning from you (and others who contribute) is giving me an insight. I shall go away and google "bondeslander" (apple helpfully auto corrected to "blonde slander" - could also be worth a google ahahaha - so as not to waste your time.

In the grand scheme of things - I hope this sensible level of question and answer is helping others understand the issues - rather than flinging insults at each other which seemed to be preoccupying this thread, I hoped that asking some sensible probing questions might help everyone understand a bit more about the way each party is coming at this.

Let me push you one step further - you say you would favor a USE. How would any country with such strong sense of identity even go to that stage. Culture, language, all those things - Mr Junker gave an interesting speech saying English is no longer the language of the EU. I know it was probably a joke, meant at giving Mrs May a little needle, but that must rankle with Germans, Irish (last time I checked English was their language), Italians, Spanish, Dutch, (apologies to countries I have left off - ahem) - its all a big melting pot of so many things - I can't see how it can integrate any further - without starting to royally piss off some nations with strong sense of their national identity..... and where does that go?
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10398
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 12:47 am

The two speed integration will be something to watch, to get an inner circle of existing members it cannot be done at the ballot box, the political elites are all in favor but unfortunately they are not the majority. So numbers will have to be used to qualify or disqualify members,it must be something that both France and Germany will qualify, then the other issue would be how to eliminate a majority vote for the new member circles or compensation.

The EU presently has what 4 principles, closer integration will now increase that number, it would / should affect aspects of the other members day to day interaction with the new inner circle, will be difficult without discrimination. As an example, if budgets are consolidated, how do you now restrict the outer circle without erecting temporary barriers with the outer circle for fund leakage? I will do more research on the two speed, I am probably looking at it in the wrong way.
 
BCal Dc10
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:47 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 4:17 am

Par13del - I think the 2 speed Europe that is the proposed model going forward is going to be where this whole European project falls apart.
I can't see how nations can agree special lower speed deals? Isn't this where the UK became unstuck? didn't what's his name - Cameron - go to the EU and ask for special conditions for this n that - and the EU - probably correctly - said no. We can't have special conditions for you, otherwise, all manner of fuck wits and their mothers will come asking for the same deals.
So the 2 speed Europe has only one place to go - and that is surely - south.

How do you become a high speed - slow speed - or whatever nation? Are there criteria? Who decides? Other helpful posters have said there is no EU central government. So who chooses the lucky countries?

And as a final - one of BCal DC10's great questions - everyone talks about the UK pissing off the EU and being an outsider - Is there any history - documentation of Germany - Mrs Merkel - or France - M Hollande - or other EU nation taking the EU to task and having a show down or run in, or are they so happy with the status quo that they don't argue with the EU commission, and let everything slide because what is going on suits them.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 5:40 am

You are wrong. We have already several speed in EU: the eurozone, the Schengen area and so on.

What is needed is the political will to go further and find compromises between theses countries.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 7:54 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Thanks for that Dutchy - I'm learning every day. I hope my questions aren't annoying - I am fascinated by this process, and learning from you (and others who contribute) is giving me an insight. I shall go away and google "bondeslander" (apple helpfully auto corrected to "blonde slander" - could also be worth a google ahahaha - so as not to waste your time.

In the grand scheme of things - I hope this sensible level of question and answer is helping others understand the issues - rather than flinging insults at each other which seemed to be preoccupying this thread, I hoped that asking some sensible probing questions might help everyone understand a bit more about the way each party is coming at this.

Let me push you one step further - you say you would favor a USE. How would any country with such strong sense of identity even go to that stage. Culture, language, all those things - Mr Junker gave an interesting speech saying English is no longer the language of the EU. I know it was probably a joke, meant at giving Mrs May a little needle, but that must rankle with Germans, Irish (last time I checked English was their language), Italians, Spanish, Dutch, (apologies to countries I have left off - ahem) - its all a big melting pot of so many things - I can't see how it can integrate any further - without starting to royally piss off some nations with strong sense of their national identity..... and where does that go?


Bundesländer (my German sucks, sorry for that): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany not unlike the states of America I guess.

You do raise some interesting points and challenging ones :-)

I am too fascinated by this process.

"you say you would favor a USE. How would any country with such strong sense of identity even go to that stage." that is interesting. I think I have much more in common with someone living in Madrid, than with someone living in East Groningen (rural country, as far as that is possible in The Netherlands). If you would drive from north of the Netherlands to the southern tip, you really can feel and see the difference. Above the river Rhine, the culture is Calvinistic, protestant, south of the river Rhine it is Catholic. You can hear and see it in the accent, in the identity, in the culture, yet we are still one country. One may ask the question if one's identity isn't more closely linked to a region, than a more or less arbitrary line on a map. Freddy Heineken (yes, the one from the beer), made a map once which made much more sense, the division of Europe within much smaller regions:
The plan gives a division of Europe in regions. Heineken went to Henk Wesseling for advise on the division, who was Professor of History at the University of Leiden. The designs from the plan were left to the Leiden historian Wim van den Doel. Eurotopia takes ethnic sensitivities into account, to cause the least possible amount of friction. The basic idea is a Europe that is completely composed of states with roughly 5 to 10 million citizens. According to Heineken, the absence of a powerful state would lead to a chance of more stability, equality and peace. While under the motto of small is beautiful, administration in the states could be more efficient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unite ... rotopia%3F

I kind of subscribe to that point of view. That would dissolve nation-states in favor of the smaller regions, taking into account the multi-ethnical sensitivities. And if you could have one government above it, doing all the thinks the smaller regions can't, like defense, foreign policies, internal marked etc., than you have a USE. Give these states as much power as possible, give some support to regions which really needs it (Flevoland (Provence of The Netherlands) gets support from the EU, which it kind of ridiculous).
You have to remember the history of Europe. We had the Roman empire once, stretch out from the Netherlands / England in the north to Egypt. After the collapse of that Empire, cities became the predominating power, after that more regional powers were formed and than the countries. So it might just be the logical next step to move towards a single Europe again.
But Europeans share a common history and do share common values. So I think that this is the way forward, but it might take another 100 years. We have come so far, we travel so much around the continent, all walks of life, so we can see and experience it for ourselves. I believe that meeting each other will bring us closer together.

"Mr Junker gave an interesting speech saying English is no longer the language of the EU." Mr Junker can say what he wants, most spoken second language is English. Perhaps he meant that within the EU it isn't one of the six languages which are being translated anymore, since only the Irish will speak it as a first language, after the Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:18 am

par13del wrote:
The two speed integration will be something to watch, to get an inner circle of existing members it cannot be done at the ballot box, the political elites are all in favor but unfortunately they are not the majority. So numbers will have to be used to qualify or disqualify members,it must be something that both France and Germany will qualify, then the other issue would be how to eliminate a majority vote for the new member circles or compensation.

The EU presently has what 4 principles, closer integration will now increase that number, it would / should affect aspects of the other members day to day interaction with the new inner circle, will be difficult without discrimination. As an example, if budgets are consolidated, how do you now restrict the outer circle without erecting temporary barriers with the outer circle for fund leakage? I will do more research on the two speed, I am probably looking at it in the wrong way.


I think you are right, the inner circle has to protect itself so there must be some difference there and new barriers will be put in place, that is inevitable. It won't be discrimination though. But the whole idea of an inner circle is in place already, like olddog said, some countries are in the Euro, some are outside, some are in Schengen, some outside and there are countless of that kind of provisions. What kind of criteria will be put into place, will be a political process, so nobody can say what they will be and thus how to move from the other circle to the inner one.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Par13del - I think the 2 speed Europe that is the proposed model going forward is going to be where this whole European project falls apart.
I can't see how nations can agree special lower speed deals? Isn't this where the UK became unstuck? didn't what's his name - Cameron - go to the EU and ask for special conditions for this n that - and the EU - probably correctly - said no. We can't have special conditions for you, otherwise, all manner of fuck wits and their mothers will come asking for the same deals.
So the 2 speed Europe has only one place to go - and that is surely - south.

How do you become a high speed - slow speed - or whatever nation? Are there criteria? Who decides? Other helpful posters have said there is no EU central government. So who chooses the lucky countries?


If I may try to answer these questions as well.

Cameron tried to get a more favorable deal with the EU, in order to warm the British for the EU. He failed miserably, perfectly logical, why give into blackmail? If you have strong arguments, yes, but not blackmail. He really did want too much, too many special conditions, too many picking of the good fruits. Actually come to think of it, the same attitude that mrs. May has, keep the good thinks, without paying or the rest. That is not the way to compromise and move forward with each other.

Whom chooses? Well, it will be a compromise between a lot of nations.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
And as a final - one of BCal DC10's great questions - everyone talks about the UK pissing off the EU and being an outsider - Is there any history - documentation of Germany - Mrs Merkel - or France - M Hollande - or other EU nation taking the EU to task and having a show down or run in, or are they so happy with the status quo that they don't argue with the EU commission, and let everything slide because what is going on suits them.

Lots of examples there. Hungary with its education bill. Denmark opting out of the Euro. France and Germany both had a run in with the European commision because they were outside the Euro guidelines in around 2004.

As for Germany and France, the European council of the heads of state work more and more with a qualified majority, http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/counc ... -majority/

Basically, 55% of the countries must be in favor, and the countries in favor of a proposal must represent 65% of the European people. So almost no proposal can be adopted without Germany and France (and the UK) backing it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 9:04 am

If you have more genuine questions there is a complete site : http://europa.eu/
And with 24 languages you have the choice :)
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 720
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 11:13 am

€100bn Brexit bill is ‘legally impossible’ to enforce, European Commission’s own lawyers admit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... mmissions/

EU officials were told they could not 'cherry pick' the accounts and hit the UK with the hefty bill
But the European Commission appears to have overruled the advice and are pushing ahead with the demand regardless

In a separate legal memo seen by the newspaper, Mr Barnier's team warned it would be 'legally impossible' to insist Britain keeps paying for farm subsidies after it leaves the EU in March 2019.




IF this turns out to be true, that's pretty shocking. The EU not playing by the rules, who would have thought that would happen?
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
LAH1
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 11:16 am

Dano1977 wrote:
€100bn Brexit bill is ‘legally impossible’ to enforce, European Commission’s own lawyers admit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... mmissions/

EU officials were told they could not 'cherry pick' the accounts and hit the UK with the hefty bill
But the European Commission appears to have overruled the advice and are pushing ahead with the demand regardless

In a separate legal memo seen by the newspaper, Mr Barnier's team warned it would be 'legally impossible' to insist Britain keeps paying for farm subsidies after it leaves the EU in March 2019.




IF this turns out to be true, that's pretty shocking. The EU not playing by the rules, who would have thought that would happen?


Not me :)
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 11:46 am

Dano1977 wrote:
IF this turns out to be true, that's pretty shocking. The EU not playing by the rules, who would have thought that would happen?


If true, then that would be quite stupid of the EU. Britain team would soon realize that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 1:40 pm

Olddog wrote:
You are wrong. We have already several speed in EU: the eurozone, the Schengen area and so on.

What is needed is the political will to go further and find compromises between theses countries.


So how will be those new EU members that are members of Schengen treaty and the Euro zone excluded from the elite? Based on what?
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 1:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Britain team would soon realize that.

We knew that almost immediately after the referendum - it was one of the first things that our Attorney General looked at. We've known for ages that we can walk away, legally owing nothing, if we choose to.

It really ought to be simple common sense - if the UK was currently a net beneficiary, rather than a net contributor, would the EU now be offering us 100bn as a leaving present? Of course they would not. So it cannot be reasonable that we would be obliged to continue paying, just because the roles are reversed.

Let's hope that most of the noise coming out of Brussels at the moment is aimed at influencing the French and German elections, rather than at reality and we will see an abrupt u-turn shortly afterwards.

What will be interesting to see is how this leak (which debunks the the other 27 are totally united, btw, otherwise there would have been no leak) will affect the result of the next Italian election. The front-runners are the far-left and far-right, both of which hate the EU. Draghi has already been trying to influence the outcome by claiming that, should Italy even try to leave the Euro, all of Italy's debts will become immediately payable, bankrupting the country. Now everyone knows that that is an empty threat and Italy could just walk away owing nothing at all.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 2:56 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
So how will be those new EU members that are members of Schengen treaty and the Euro zone excluded from the elite? Based on what?


Nothing to do with exclusion. The idea I have read and I am sure there are more ideas around, is for the countries ready to go further, to not just wait that all the 27 agree but to start for more integration after uk departure. And, when or if more euro countries are ready to opt-in and follow stricter rules they could do but with the agreement of the members already in.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10398
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 4:16 pm

Olddog wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
So how will be those new EU members that are members of Schengen treaty and the Euro zone excluded from the elite? Based on what?


Nothing to do with exclusion. The idea I have read and I am sure there are more ideas around, is for the countries ready to go further, to not just wait that all the 27 agree but to start for more integration after uk departure. And, when or if more euro countries are ready to opt-in and follow stricter rules they could do but with the agreement of the members already in.


Which will change the dynamics of working with the other members who are either not ready or do not qualify for closer integration.
In my years on this site, most Europeans seemed offended when mention was made of the United States of Europe, for closer integration that is what would have to happen. Nations would have to "devolve" into states with primary functions now under national control transferred to the EU, example the individual nation veto would have to go, the collective veto would / could remain but it would have to be high, say 75% of members. I cannot imagine Europeans looking at the United States for example and trying to see if there is anything there in the makeup of that nation that they could use.

Rather than a two speed I think what would work is to stay the current course, continue to place more powers under the EU until individual nation states simply give up their nationalism - which is what the issue really is - an decide to submit to the EU. It has to mean a change in the EU MP's as their powers will have to supercede those of the national parliaments. To get the citizens more interested in the EU parliament will also mandate a change in the attitudes of those members, they will have to be more accountable to the electorate as the buffer of the local legislature must be removed.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 4:58 pm

You've apparently not read enough from the Europhiles on this site.
Quite a few are certainly not ashamed to claim their wish for a closer union, ultimately a federal entity.
Right now, we think that the access of the Eastern European states to the EU has been too quick, without changes in the Constitution - sorry, the TFEU :smile: - The 28 states EU with each one having a blocking veto power wasn't, isn't manageable as there are too many egotistical national interests at stake. Hence, the only way forward was a system of qualified majority... but the veto powers remained and basically the whole system is stalled, and that one of the main reasons the citizens of the EU 27 perceive it as not catering for their needs and their freedom.
A two-speed union is , for the moment, the only way forward : there is a nucleus of states, particularly the most populous ones which are seing the need for a closer union: there are already some ideas going around : a closer defence integration, (between France and Germany : the idea of a common financial policy and one finance minister), a new social charta... who knows where it is going ?
In Macron, France will have the most active pro EU president we've seen since Giscard d'Estaing in 1974.He's already declared that his first visit will be to talk with Mrs Merkel...

Now, entry to that inner circle will be on a voluntary basis, of course with the proviso that the inner circle doesn't oppose that move.


Speedbored :
"What we are not happy to pay is the cost of the political union, nor that of propping up the failing economies of other EU members ".
1/- the cost of the political union has never been computed or taken from any body

2/- The UK has contributed Zilch to helping Greece (although they were quite happy to help them fuddle their figures to conform to the requirements of the Eurozone). The Eurogroup/Zone did
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 5:33 pm

Pihero wrote:
the cost of the political union has never been computed or taken from any body

I didn't say it had. But even if, as you claim, noone knows how much it costs, that doesn't mean it is not being paid for.

Pihero wrote:
The UK has contributed Zilch to helping Greece

I never claimed that we did but you are wrong, we have, and continue to, contribute to Greece as it is a net beneficiary of the EU. You might also want to check who contributes to the IMF funds that Greece has also been helped out with.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 5:35 pm

speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Britain team would soon realize that.

We knew that almost immediately after the referendum - it was one of the first things that our Attorney General looked at. We've known for ages that we can walk away, legally owing nothing, if we choose to.


We'll see.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 5:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We'll see.

Personally, I hope that we won't. I hope that sanity will return and an equitable agreement will be reached.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3766
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 5:41 pm

speedbored wrote:
Pihero wrote:
the cost of the political union has never been computed or taken from any body

I didn't say it had. But even if, as you claim, noone knows how much it costs, that doesn't mean it is not being paid for.


Still the point is moot because the political and social project is inextricable from the economic one. 4 freedoms and all that.

If you want full market access you need to pay in. Otherwise you're looking at an asymmetrical FTA like the recent Canadian example.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24599
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 6:05 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
€100bn Brexit bill is ‘legally impossible’ to enforce, European Commission’s own lawyers admit



Surprised it took all parties that long to find out what a lot of us already knew. ;)

--------


Good news on UKIP being wiped out though. I guess they did the dirty work and now have no other real policies attractive to anyone and thus their supporters are all flocking to the Tories now.

Lots of rhetoric from both sides as expected. A lot of it no surprise. I guess we will have these headlines and digs for the next 3-5 years because lets be honest this will take more then 2 years. An extension will be sought by all sides. Lots of splits expected by the 27 and cracks already starting to show behind closed doors. When countries who rely on UK tourism start to fight for their own interests it will all get very nasty. Just back from the Canary Islands and spoke to a few people very influential politically and they are willing to defy Madrid and the EU to protect their tourist industry which is very much dependent on UK tourists despite other markets like Germany,Holland,France increasing and new Eastern European markets. It does not even touch the surface of any shortfall if a deal is not done. One just needs to look at the departure boards to see that.

Of course lots and lots of other issues which various 27 countries want to protect their own interests in so while they may in public speak with a so called united voice the reality in a years time or less will be somewhat different.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 6:27 pm

None found that. It s just a clickbait article for the campaign. When EU has a real number, they will publish it.
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 6:29 pm

JJJ wrote:
Still the point is moot because the political and social project is inextricable from the economic one. 4 freedoms and all that.

You are probably right but that is only because the politicians have decided that that is how it will be. There is absolutely no practical reason why it must be so.

OA260 wrote:
Good news on UKIP being wiped out though. I guess they did the dirty work and now have no other real policies attractive to anyone and thus their supporters are all flocking to the Tories now.

I honestly don't see why UKIP didn't just disband after they got the referendum result that was the sole reason for their existence. They already have almost zero politicians in office, and are going to be mightily embarrassed in the general election. They should have quit while they were ahead.
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 6:37 pm

OA260 wrote:
because lets be honest this will take more then 2 years. An extension will be sought by all sides.

You are probably right about how long it will take but I do not believe that the UK would ever agree to an extension unless, at that time, we are close to a good agreement for the UK - Theresa May knows that the UK public will leave her party out of office for a very long time if she does not deliver on what they have instructed her to do, within the time-frame that they are expecting. It would take a massive change on the EU side to alter that expectation.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24599
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 6:56 pm

speedbored wrote:
I honestly don't see why UKIP didn't just disband after they got the referendum result that was the sole reason for their existence. They already have almost zero politicians in office, and are going to be mightily embarrassed in the general election. They should have quit while they were ahead.


True but they really thought that the UK electorate would thank them for delivering a leave vote in the referendum, Bascially disgruntled people who were forgotten by Labour from 1997-2010 and then again by David Cameron and the Lib Dems used UKIP to protest and get the job done to get out of the EU. Now that both Labour and Conservatives do not disagree that the process needs to be carried out everyone is flocking back to the Tories. Also because of the Labour party are a complete joke under Corbyn their own voters are flocking to the Tories too. The Lib Dems are a waste of space.

I am thankful that UKIP are mostly gone and even people I knew who are educated and decent moved to them because they had been left behind by the two main parties for years which is a very dangerous thing as we have seen. I think once Brexit is complete and there is a deal then the normal state of affairs will resume with a strong Labour opposition under a new leader which I would welcome. I would not want to see any government have that much power and majority without being held to account.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3766
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 7:36 pm

speedbored wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Still the point is moot because the political and social project is inextricable from the economic one. 4 freedoms and all that.

You are probably right but that is only because the politicians have decided that that is how it will be. There is absolutely no practical reason why it must be so.


Because it's like that by design, and I'm afraid it's been an all too common misconception across the channel. The UK has pretended for long that the EU is basically their failed EFTA on steroids. And it's not just that.

It's a much more far reaching project, with the goal to integrate the individual economies, legal systems and peoples. It was set up to bring poorer countries to the same standards as richer countries, so that they're stronger together and so linked as to make war between member states impossible.

That's why every time the UK asked for exemptions, rebates and all kinds of opt-outs Brussels shook their collective heads in a "they just don't get it don't they?" gesture.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10398
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 7:39 pm

So how does Norway fit in that model, why are they allowed to be partially integrated?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11982
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 7:54 pm

par13del wrote:
So how does Norway fit in that model, why are they allowed to be partially integrated?


because they don't want to join the EU itself, so they are as close to it, without actually entering. They hold almost the same position as the UK does, except they have no influence on the policies.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bgm, Impacto, speedygonzales, ThePointblank and 29 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos