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Klaus
Posts: 21344
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 7:03 pm

JJJ wrote:
Fast expansion to the east was a British brainchild as much as CAP is French and the euro German.


The Euro was basically forced on Germany as a precondition for allowing Germany to re-unite. It was not at all a german idea!

Germany just pushed for several structural improvements before ultimately assenting to its introduction, albeit very reluctantly.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 7:04 pm

" So that's why I said, why not leave it to the Brexiteers to follow up their momentous decision and let a Brexiteer run the country, including the separation. That's what I would have done if I were May."
...a drowning man will clutch at a straw, and the majority of the politicians in the UK want to be in the EU, so what to do, let a Brexiteer run the government or have a remain supporter take over who will lessen the blow and hopefully see the actual leave process fail?
Having to re-apply to join the EU and being put on hold is a vision that some "elites" have, would bring some sense to the masses who voted leave...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 7:29 pm

par13del wrote:
" So that's why I said, why not leave it to the Brexiteers to follow up their momentous decision and let a Brexiteer run the country, including the separation. That's what I would have done if I were May."
...a drowning man will clutch at a straw, and the majority of the politicians in the UK want to be in the EU, so what to do, let a Brexiteer run the government or have a remain supporter take over who will lessen the blow and hopefully see the actual leave process fail?
Having to re-apply to join the EU and being put on hold is a vision that some "elites" have, would bring some sense to the masses who voted leave...


Do you think that is May's end game? Go for the hard Brexit in order to have been called back by a referendum and then re-appling to the EU?

And I agee that is a hellish dillema, either leave it up to the Brexiteers or do it yourselve.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 7:47 pm

LAH1 wrote:
It seems more and more that anyone not agreeing with official EU policy is "living on another galaxy". Couldn't possibly be the other way round could it?


We're still waiting for the UK plan so we can compare and decide who is a realist and who is dreaming.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 7:53 pm

I could have never believed the acrimony and the insults coming from the people who are leaving the European Union.
It seems that the roles are reversed : The country that has, for decades been a thorn in the EU's foot and finally decided - on its own unilateral way - to leave after insults, wants now to be seen as a victim.
Pathetic !
People around me do not care a fig or a bent banana skin whether they pay or not : the consensus is "the sooner the better"... for them, mainly.
They can sabotage, make a nuisance of themselves ( what's new ?..), we don't care : on the 29th of March 2019 they will be "just another third country" and their future is no skin of ours.
Braybuddy gets on his self-righteous high horse about mistreatment of the UK, conveniently forgetting ( did he ?) that May's government didn't even bother to be present at the 60th anniversary of the Union... a bit of a blinkers'case I'm afraid.
And now, just for cynical national political gains, May and her accomplices are transforming what was a democaratic but narrowly-won referendum into a general election that would destroy the bi-partisan politics of the UK and basically establish a one-party institrution... and again making the EU has an excuse to do so.
Did anyone say that politics stank ?

But we're not angry : The European case has never ( ever ever ) been something that could have motivated the Brits. Europe for them has always been about money ( with or without Maggie brandishing her handbag ) and trade ( they joined because their European trade area failed miserably.).
Compare that to this speech by a Spanish MEP on that anniversary session.
I confess that I'm a lot more pro Spain than Britain and I couldn't have said it better.
Another 23 months max and I'll be waving them farewell. I won't be on my own : my wife who now has a French passport will do the same.
Can't wait !
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 7:57 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Fast expansion to the east was a British brainchild as much as CAP is French and the euro German..

The expansions of 1981 and 1986 were from today's perspective far bigger mistakes.


I disagree. These countries have the same values as the others and are all quite happy to be in the EU and to have democracy at last. Poland, Hungary, Romania, it's a different story, USSR brainwashing has not been overcome yet.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 8:13 pm

Pihero wrote:
Braybuddy gets on his self-righteous high horse about mistreatment of the UK, conveniently forgetting ( did he ?) that May's government didn't even bother to be present at the 60th anniversary of the Union... a bit of a blinkers'case I'm afraid.


For this event she was not invited under the circumstances and chose not to show up regardless, as Britain is likewise expected to recuse itself from other EU negotiations and events which primarily affect the future of the EU beyond its exit.

This was regular and not an affront; It is an aspect of how much Brexit complicates regular EU business even now.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 8:39 pm

"And now, just for cynical national political gains, May and her accomplices are transforming what was a democaratic but narrowly-won referendum into a general election that would destroy the bi-partisan politics of the UK and basically establish a one-party institrution... and again making the EU has an excuse to do so."
One of the failings of those who get elected to high offices is that they usually loose their trust in the people who elected them, have a bit more faith in the people who went to the polls and who will do so again, do not forget that the referendum was won by less that 5 percentage points, millions voted to remain and they will once again have their say in the polls, there will not be a one party state despite the Labour politicians abandoning their own ship. They are the ones playing a dangerous game, their hope seems to be that if the current leader looses by a wide margin, he will loose his job as leader. Funny thing is that labour actually voted to make him leader, go figure...
 
Kilopond
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 9:19 pm

At the end, the UK will be part of the "United States of Europe". It will take several more generations to achieve that aim. But the ruling powers are patient enough to wait one or two more centuries to achieve their malicious aims. Good Night!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 9:29 pm

Klaus wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
A sort of geopolitical Hotel California?

In a way, yes.

This is the sort of thing that scares me . .

Klaus wrote:
And besides that you could cut and edit footage from pretty much any major meeting to presumably support pretty much any peconceived notion you'd want.

That video is pretty clear. She's completely ignored while the others love-bomb each other. :sarcastic:

Pihero wrote:
Braybuddy gets on his self-righteous high horse about mistreatment of the UK, conveniently forgetting ( did he ?) that May's government didn't even bother to be present at the 60th anniversary of the Union... a bit of a blinkers'case I'm afraid.

Do you blame her after the summit in December?

I don't even know why I'm fighting the UK's corner, as we have our own history with the Brits . . . :D . I've always been a strong supporter of the EU, but since the Brexit vote I'm dismayed at negative attitudes on here (and in the EU) towards the UK and their vote to leave. Of the EU27 we have the most to lose, as apart from sharing a land border (which is going to cause problems), they are our second biggest export market and the country from which we import most. The imposition of any tariffs will have quite a negative effect on the Irish economy. I would have preferred had they voted to remain, yet I respect them for their decision, and look on it as a fascinating experiment. They voted to leave the EU - democracy is one of the founding principles of the EU - and that must be respected.

So good luck to them -- they will no doubt lose some and gain some -- and it will be fascinating to watch how it all plays out.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 01, 2017 9:42 pm

JJJ wrote:
scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Buy yet the UK thought that the EU is to blame for most of the problems in the UK.


Not "the UK" but some in the UK, yes. But then every country has it's bitter minority.

seahawk wrote:
And yes when it comes to the expansion of the EU every single member of the European Council is free to veto it.


Exactly. So to try and blame the UK for a joint decision is laughable.


Fast expansion to the east was a British brainchild as much as CAP is French and the euro German.

Britain spent considerable diplomatic resources in getting enough support to their idea of a fast expansion eastwards starting with the Thatcher government.


And, as pointed out above, EVERYONE else agreed to it, so how does that make it "the UK's fault"? The fault is shared equally with everyone that agreed to it. :crazy:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 12:03 am

Pihero wrote:
And now, just for cynical national political gains, May and her accomplices are transforming what was a democaratic but narrowly-won referendum into a general election that would destroy the bi-partisan politics of the UK and basically establish a one-party institrution... and again making the EU has an excuse to do so.
Did anyone say that politics stank ?


Oh look folks, someone who conveniently forgets the 13 years of Blair & Brown bulldozing tons of unwanted rubbish legislation through is moaning about one party states!

HAW HAW HAW!!!!

Pihero wrote:
But we're not angry : The European case has never ( ever ever ) been something that could have motivated the Brits. Europe for them has always been about money ( with or without Maggie brandishing her handbag ) and trade ( they joined because their European trade area failed miserably.).
Compare that to this speech by a Spanish MEP on that anniversary session.


Oh boy, so much wrong with that speech:

Globalisation teaches us that today Europe is inevitable, there is no alternative.


Oh dear, how on earth would independent democratic nations possibly survive without having some overarching political body telling them what to do? Shall we ask the Irish if the British Isles are inevitable and they should join us?

QUICK, SOMEONE TELL THE JAPANESE THEY NEED TO JOIN A UNION WITH CHINA! THEY'LL NEVER MAKE IT ON THEIR OWN!

Brexit is the most selfish decision ever made since Winston Churchill saved Europe with the blood sweat and tears of the English.


British, not English, British.

Or did no one from Scotland, Wales or Ireland take part in anything during the war?

Saying Brexit is the most insidious way of saying goodbye.


Well we did have a referendum and a parliamentary vote before triggering Article 50. Perhaps he'd have preferred us taking leaf out of Genghis Khan's book by
sending a few severed heads to the European Commission instead?

We can have a common market, but if we do not have common dreams, we have nothing.


I wonder if it's the dream of some Eurozone members to prop up the failing ones while asking their own people to tighten belts and go with less?

Europe is the peace that came after the disaster of war.


NATO. Warsaw Pact. Mutually assured destruction. Does a lot to promote peace if you know doing anything will result in the extinction of your entire civilization.

Europe is the return to freedom of Greece, Spain and Portugal.


Portugal's case that had far more to do with their failures in clinging on to their empires last possessions in Africa thus precipitating a coup that brought about the end of regime that Salazar had set up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution

Europe is the fall of the Berlin Wall


No that's the collapse of the East German regime aided by the wave of reformation that blew through the Soviet bloc at the time.

Europe is the end of communism


Communist parties still play a role in the politics of many European countries.

Also, NATO says hi again. Didn't do those Communist states any good trying to out-build us in the weapons department did it?

Europe is the welfare state, it is democracy.


I imagine people in New Zealand could say exactly the same thing despite being 9000 or so miles away.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21344
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 1:37 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
A sort of geopolitical Hotel California?

In a way, yes.

This is the sort of thing that scares me . .


It's no different from other long-term arrangements which are also not designed to fail but only to succeed, even though there still is an option to get out if absolutely necessary, but usually at great difficulty. One example is a divorce when a couple has both kids and a shared mortgage. That's not a walk in the park either, despite all the solemn vows at the wedding.

Klaus wrote:
And besides that you could cut and edit footage from pretty much any major meeting to presumably support pretty much any peconceived notion you'd want.

That video is pretty clear. She's completely ignored while the others love-bomb each other. :sarcastic:


In those selected images included in the video to drive the intended message home. With said images not difficult to come by in that situation, of course, with Britain in the process of throwing all the things away the 27 have been working decades on to build and which may be jeopardized for all due to that unilateral decision.

What is really your point about this? That her frustrated colleagues weren't keen on play-acting everything-is-just-great-between-us even though they clearly felt the opposite way? That the wicked europeans were mean to her, proving how fundamentally evil they really were? Or what?

Pihero wrote:
Braybuddy gets on his self-righteous high horse about mistreatment of the UK, conveniently forgetting ( did he ?) that May's government didn't even bother to be present at the 60th anniversary of the Union... a bit of a blinkers'case I'm afraid.

Do you blame her after the summit in December?

I don't even know why I'm fighting the UK's corner, as we have our own history with the Brits . . . :D . I've always been a strong supporter of the EU, but since the Brexit vote I'm dismayed at negative attitudes on here (and in the EU) towards the UK and their vote to leave. Of the EU27 we have the most to lose, as apart from sharing a land border (which is going to cause problems), they are our second biggest export market and the country from which we import most. The imposition of any tariffs will have quite a negative effect on the Irish economy. I would have preferred had they voted to remain, yet I respect them for their decision, and look on it as a fascinating experiment. They voted to leave the EU - democracy is one of the founding principles of the EU - and that must be respected.

So good luck to them -- they will no doubt lose some and gain some -- and it will be fascinating to watch how it all plays out.


Yeah. And Britain is taking a hostile stance towards the EU and now has to deal with the consequences of their own decision. Tough. Reality is like that sometimes when you've unilaterally declared your separation from your friends and partners. Time for them to wake up and to smell the change in the air.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 5:01 am

scbriml wrote:
JJJ wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Not "the UK" but some in the UK, yes. But then every country has it's bitter minority.



Exactly. So to try and blame the UK for a joint decision is laughable.


Fast expansion to the east was a British brainchild as much as CAP is French and the euro German.

Britain spent considerable diplomatic resources in getting enough support to their idea of a fast expansion eastwards starting with the Thatcher government.


And, as pointed out above, EVERYONE else agreed to it, so how does that make it "the UK's fault"? The fault is shared equally with everyone that agreed to it. :crazy:


The others are not leaving the EU because the Polish plumbers are taking away jobs.....
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 6:18 am

Dear UK members, does Calimero complex ring a bell?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 7:27 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Oh look folks, someone who conveniently forgets the 13 years of Blair & Brown bulldozing tons of unwanted rubbish legislation through is moaning about one party states!

HAW HAW HAW!!!!
.

I wonder why you didn't vote out then.

To compare Britain with Japan is a joke, isn't it ? you're not really serious, are you ?

Oh! By the way, I forgot that you do not share any of these values : Your foreign secretary shares other ones with the Philippines' president, Mr Erdogan whom he qualified earlier of being a goats'lover, and Mr Trumpo... and your prime minister has other ideas with Saudi Arabia ( did I forget any other value-laden potentate ?)
Last edited by Pihero on Tue May 02, 2017 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 7:32 am

seahawk wrote:
The others are not leaving the EU because the Polish plumbers are taking away jobs.....


Yeah, that's the ONLY reason we're leaving. :laughing:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 7:34 am

Klaus wrote:
In those selected images included in the video to drive the intended message home. With said images not difficult to come by in that situation, of course, with Britain in the process of throwing all the things away the 27 have been working decades on to build and which may be jeopardized for all due to that unilateral decision.

What is really your point about this? That her frustrated colleagues weren't keen on play-acting everything-is-just-great-between-us even though they clearly felt the opposite way? That the wicked europeans were mean to her, proving how fundamentally evil they really were? Or what?

Oh not evil, just immature. For a start, Teresa May is not personally responsible for Brexit (although she was rumoured to be a reluctant remainer) and campaigned to remain in the EU. She's been dealt a difficult hand (David Cameron had made no contingency plans) and is about to embark on a process for which there is no precedent (or textbook either, on both the UK or EU sides). She is not in the process of destroying the EU, just removing her country from it. You could argue that the British decision is possibly doing the EU a favour, in that it is a wake-up call for the remaining 27.

Secondly, you get nowhere by cold-shouldering your opponent. Remember the ideologically opposed Margaret Thatcher and Mikhail Gorbachev? When they met they actually got on very well. Both had the intelligence and maturity to realise they could do more by working together than firing diplomatic stink bombs at each other. There's no need to spell out what followed. More recently, the even more diametrically opposed Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness (who many would have believed would not even sit in the same room) were thrown together by elections a decade ago, and, to everyone's surprise (shock, even), actually hit it off to the point that they were nicknamed the Chuckle Brothers. The NI peace process wouldn't have been possible without their willingness to work together.

What's wrong with a little understanding and civility?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 7:38 am

scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The others are not leaving the EU because the Polish plumbers are taking away jobs.....


Yeah, that's the ONLY reason we're leaving. :laughing:


Was it not one of the major reasons, that the movement of Eastern Europeans to the UK was seen as a legitimate (I agree with that btw) threat to the future of the British craftsman?

I fully support the Brexit, as it is a clear decision for freedom and becoming responsible for the nation again, it would just convince me more, if UK politicians would start taking the responsibility. If May stands up and say, we should never have signed the Lisbon treaty, I would respect her.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 7:59 am

Braybuddy :
" What's wrong with a little understanding and civility ?"
That's a language that is not understood any more on the other side of the Manche.
I've lived for nearly forty years with Brits and have heard abuse, insult, derogatory comments from them. Even here, a lot of the expats heve nothing but scorn on this country and the "slavish way they follow the dictates of the fascist Germany"
As soon as there was a hint of a referendum, started the insults : "these unelected bastards don't want to give us what we are entitled to"... and I happened to be in Marseille at the worst of the English - yeah ! ENGLISH, not British - hooligans demonstration of English values and philanthropia.
One doesn't talk with them. Better ignore them and go on on one's way.

To read the comments or the readers' corner on any - I repeat "a.n.y" British newspaper is a journey to an outhouse...
Sorry Braybuddy, you are addressing the wrong corner.

One year, ten months and twenty-nine days and it could be our liberation day from the most obnoxious partner we'd ever had the misfortune to be with.
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LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 9:04 am

Pihero wrote:
Braybuddy :
" What's wrong with a little understanding and civility ?"
That's a language that is not understood any more on the other side of the Manche.
I've lived for nearly forty years with Brits and have heard abuse, insult, derogatory comments from them. Even here, a lot of the expats heve nothing but scorn on this country and the "slavish way they follow the dictates of the fascist Germany"
As soon as there was a hint of a referendum, started the insults : "these unelected bastards don't want to give us what we are entitled to"... and I happened to be in Marseille at the worst of the English - yeah ! ENGLISH, not British - hooligans demonstration of English values and philanthropia.
One doesn't talk with them. Better ignore them and go on on one's way.

To read the comments or the readers' corner on any - I repeat "a.n.y" British newspaper is a journey to an outhouse...
Sorry Braybuddy, you are addressing the wrong corner.

One year, ten months and twenty-nine days and it could be our liberation day from the most obnoxious partner we'd ever had the misfortune to be with.


And there are posts here accusing the Brexit mob of anger and bad mouthing.
Oh well, I suppose we all see what we want to see.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 9:32 am

Pihero wrote:
One year, ten months and twenty-nine days and it could be our liberation day from the most obnoxious partner we'd ever had the misfortune to be with.

And you're accusing them of name-calling?
You've always had the overblown rhetoric of UKIP. Most Britons (jn my experience) aren't like that. English hooligans, obnoxious as they are, are not representative of the majority of the population. And you get obnoxious hooligans all across the EU.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 9:44 am

Pihero wrote:
Braybuddy :
" What's wrong with a little understanding and civility ?"
That's a language that is not understood any more on the other side of the Manche.

Pot, meet kettle.

Pihero wrote:
One year, ten months and twenty-nine days and it could be our liberation day from the most obnoxious partner we'd ever had the misfortune to be with.

You'll find many people on this side of the English Channel :) saying the exact same thing.

Personally, I don't understand why there is so much acrimony on both sides (though I suspect that Nigel Farage might be partly to blame), nor do I understand the determination of so many that Brexit must be bad for the UK.

It will only be bad economically for the UK if the EU decides that it must be - if all of the people involved can set aside their egos and inject some common sense then a sensible agreement should be possible that keeps the economic impact on both sides to almost non-existent. After all, even though the UK stands to take the biggest single hit in the event of non-agreement, given the current balance of trade, the EU stands to take an even bigger hit as a whole, and some member countries will likely suffer badly, especially if there is also no agreement regarding the rights of expats.

What many in the EU do not seem to understand is that the majority of Brits now seem willing to take the pain of a recession if it means we rid ourselves of those self-serving politicians and bureaucrats who care more about their political experiment, and their own wealth and power, than they do about the people they are supposed to serve. Many recent statements coming out of Brussels are only reinforcing that view.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 9:45 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Most Britons (jn my experience) aren't like that. English hooligans, obnoxious as they are, are not representative of the majority of the population. And you get obnoxious hooligans all across the EU.


hear hear. We have to come to a fair and beneficial relationship for both parties, name calling will not help with that, a vision for a future relationship will help.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 9:49 am

seahawk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The others are not leaving the EU because the Polish plumbers are taking away jobs.....


Yeah, that's the ONLY reason we're leaving. :laughing:


Was it not one of the major reasons, that the movement of Eastern Europeans to the UK was seen as a legitimate (I agree with that btw) threat to the future of the British craftsman?


Basically.

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/2 ... rexit-vote

2). Where foreign-born populations increased by more than 200% between 2001 and 2014, a Leave vote followed in 94% of cases. The proportion of migrants may be relatively low in Leave strongholds such as Boston, Lincolnshire, but it has soared in a short period of time. High numbers of migrants don’t bother Britons; high rates of change do.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... migration/

Lord Ashcroft'smega-poll of 12,369 voters after the referendum suggested as such, finding that one third of Leave voters chose to back Brexit as they saw it "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders." This was the second biggest motivation for Leave voters, just behind “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.


All three main reasons given by Brexit voters contained an immigration undertone:
#1 Decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK
#2 Regain control over immigration and borders
#3 No chance of the UK to control new members or powers

Of course each individual voter had their own reasons, but immigration has been the single largest contributor.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 9:52 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Pihero wrote:
One year, ten months and twenty-nine days and it could be our liberation day from the most obnoxious partner we'd ever had the misfortune to be with.

And you're accusing them of name-calling?
You've always had the overblown rhetoric of UKIP. Most Britons (jn my experience) aren't like that. English hooligans, obnoxious as they are, are not representative of the majority of the population. And you get obnoxious hooligans all across the EU.


It is absolutely not a problem of the British people, it is only a problem of the British politicians. The current PM did not want leave the EU, but she will be the one who has to deal with the consequences. It is understandable that the blame in the British media is put on the EU, just like most media in the EU27 put the blame on the British, both point of views server the politicians the the respective countries. In the end the UK is in a worse position though, because if they want to reach a favourable agreement they will end up with something like Norway or Switzerland which does not bring what was promised, if all the goals of Brexit are to be achieved, the EU is in no position to grant a favourable deal.

It is astonishing that a successful vote practically killed the party (UKIP) most supportive of the Brexit, while it would be logical that Farrange should be favourite to be the next PM and Johnson should lead the conservatives. Imho May tries the old British tactic of asking the EU for a special deal, which they got often while being a member, but with declaring Article 50 they have removed the strongest reason they were given special deals, which was to keep the UK in the EU.

speedbored wrote:
It will only be bad economically for the UK if the EU decides that it must be - if all of the people involved can set aside their egos and inject some common sense then a sensible agreement should be possible that keeps the economic impact on both sides to almost non-existent. After all, even though the UK stands to take the biggest single hit in the event of non-agreement, given the current balance of trade, the EU stands to take an even bigger hit as a whole, and some member countries will likely suffer badly, especially if there is also no agreement regarding the rights of expats.
What many in the EU do not seem to understand is that the majority of Brits now seem willing to take the pain of a recession if it means we rid ourselves of those self-serving politicians and bureaucrats who care more about their political experiment, and their own wealth and power, than they do about the people they are supposed to serve. Many recent statements coming out of Brussels are only reinforcing that view.


The problem is that the UK wants to have a choice of which of the four freedoms that define the European market are valid for them and which not. The ‘four freedoms’ of the European Union are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders. These key principles lie at the heart of the EU and underpin the single market. So far no country has been allowed to enjoy two or three freedoms without granting the other ones. Imho it is unrealistic to expect the EU to move on this core principles that were formed with the participation of the UK. Imho a Norway or Switzerland Solution could be had easily, but that is not what the UK wants.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 10:09 am

seahawk wrote:
if they want to reach a favourable agreement they will end up with something like Norway or Switzerland which does not bring what was promised, if all the goals of Brexit are to be achieved, the EU is in no position to grant a favourable deal.


That is exactly what is going on here. What does the UK want, most of the benefits of the EU, then there is the "Norwegian" option, but that comes with all the stings/drawbacks as well (and not reaching the Brexit goals for many Brexiteers) or on the other side a hard Brexit and there will be none of the EU benefits (and might lead to the break-up of the UK itself). Or something in between, less access to the EU but also less of the perceived drawbacks. That is the big question that needs to be answered in London, nobody else can answer that one.

seahawk wrote:
Imho a Norway or Switzerland Solution could be had easily, but that is not what the UK wants.

What does the UK wants? Does anyone even know?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 10:29 am

speedbored wrote:
The EU have been aware of this convention in the EU for very many years. If this particular spending was so important then the EU should have brought forward signing it off to before the UK blackout period began. They had plenty of time to do so, and chose not to - the more cynical of us might see that as a deliberate attempt by the EU to paint the UK as being difficult.


Well, I guess any negotiations will have to wait until after the election then, since the first item on the agenda is money. This has nothing to do with UK policies, if that was the case negotiations before the election wouldn't be on the table on the UK side. This is plain show of force. Unfortunately they are throwing tissue paper.
Time is clearly taking sides in the Brexit negotiations, and it is not the UKs. I guess London got way to used to being able to blackmail the EU, and seem to be somewhat surprised that a leaving member doesn't have much in the way of leverage ....

EU principles are pretty clear, the UK helped shaping them and should understand them quite well. It has been clear since the inception of the EU that access to the common market is an all or nothing deal, and the UKs denial of this fact seems to be childish at best. If all their negotiations will run this amateurish, the UK will find itself on WTO level with most of the planet.
But hey, on the plus side we get a real world, large scale experiment on free trade. To bad that it becomes more and more clear that it will cost the UK quite a bit.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 10:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
What does the UK wants? Does anyone even know?


Full access to the common market for all UK businesses, including banks, with full control over immigration and no payments into the EU budget.

So... Not much at all and so very reasonable. ....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 10:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What does the UK wants? Does anyone even know?


Full access to the common market for all UK businesses, including banks, with full control over immigration and no payments into the EU budget.

So... Not much at all and so very reasonable. ....

Best regards
Thomas


As you have said, that is off the framework. So the Brits are going to have to choose and the upcoming elections are the way to do it, more to the Norwegian (if Norwegian wants to let the Brits in, the signs aren't on green for that) model or more hard lined.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 11:18 am

Pihero wrote:
To compare Britain with Japan is a joke, isn't it ? you're not really serious, are you ?


Two island nations, bordered by large economic powers, plays a large role in world affairs etc.

Why don't they let Chinese and Korean politicians make laws that affect them? Or vice versa?

Pihero wrote:
and your prime minister has other ideas with Saudi Arabia ( did I forget any other value-laden potentate ?)


Least we're going to make more money selling things to them than you ever will.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 11:28 am

Speedbored :
"What many in the EU do not seem to understand is that the majority of Brits now seem willing to take the pain of a recession if it means we rid ourselves of those self-serving politicians and bureaucrats who care more about their political experiment, and their own wealth and power, than they do about the people they are supposed to serve. Many recent statements coming out of Brussels are only reinforcing that view."
Yeah ! Sure : the old dead horse beaten again : those pesky unelected Brussels self serving politicians and bureaucrats..... :sarcastic:
Of course in Britain, they are all elected like the queen, the Lords and all the civil servants... and further more, they are all paragons of virtue, truthfulness and altruism. :rotfl: ... not forgetting fairness and good manners.
Contrail designer
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 11:53 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Pihero wrote:
To compare Britain with Japan is a joke, isn't it ? you're not really serious, are you ?


Two island nations, bordered by large economic powers, plays a large role in world affairs etc.

Why don't they let Chinese and Korean politicians make laws that affect them? Or vice versa?


If Japan asked to join the Asian Union or whatever name they came up with, sure they would.

No one forced the UK to join the EEC, the UK was veto'ed twice precisely because even a grumpy bonehead like De Gaulle saw it coming.

And spare us the part about the EEC not being the EU because you guys founded the EFTA as a competing organisation precisely because the EEC was too far-reaching and not just about trade.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 11:54 am

"Imho May tries the old British tactic of asking the EU for a special deal, which they got often while being a member, but with declaring Article 50 they have removed the strongest reason they were given special deals, which was to keep the UK in the EU."
Except it did not work, the former PM tried to get concessions to satisfy his population, he failed miserably, for a proponent of the EU he somewhat became a laughing stock of the other 27, in some quarters it does not appear as if he was taken seriously, which in effect was the concerns of his people. To satisfy his population that he was doing something his last gamble - blackmail if you wish - was to offer his people a referendum on EU membership - not sure why he did that since the people did not have a referendum to join -. Most did not take it too seriously until the poll numbers started getting close thus forcing people to finally take on the extremist on both sides, even so, no one expected the vote to be negative, so here we are.

I still think it is in the interest of both parties today to state WTO and go from there, spend the next two years setting up the infrastructure then spend the next 10 years trying to do a Canada deal. If Juncker is throwing up the Canada deal, what exactly does the UK expect to get in two years, if the UK decides to pay every bill the EU puts up, they can get something done in two years, in which case, the referendum would have been meaningless since it will achieve none of the goals of the voters. It would be a feather in the EU cap to have the UK abiding by all EU rules. regulations, funding etc. while having no say whatsoever.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 12:06 pm

seahawk wrote:
The ‘four freedoms’ of the European Union are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders. These key principles lie at the heart of the EU and underpin the single market. So far no country has been allowed to enjoy two or three freedoms without granting the other ones.

True. But that is a purely political decision, not an economic one, and it seems that the EU "masters" prefer to take a huge economic hit rather than compromise on those "principles". Makes sense if your priority is the European political union and maintaining the elite's gravy train. Makes far less sense if your priority is the economic well-being of the people they are supposed to be serving.

seahawk wrote:
the EU is in no position to grant a favourable deal.

Why not? Seems to me it is more about "don't want to" than "can't", regardless of the price that will have to be paid by people on both sides.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 12:09 pm

ultimo tiger :
"Least we're going to make more money selling things to them than you ever will."

Wake up, it's still time : in terms of export, you are not even matching the Netherlands... And what are you going to sell ? Eurofighters ? They are an Airbus product... Land Rovers ? Ask Tata first...etc...etc...
Of course the brexiteers don't have time to read... they should, though, at least have a quick look at this article on the NY Times some months ago : the Death of British Business by Simon Head, which talks about two studies : Nicholas Comfort’s Surrender: How British Industry Gave Up The Ghost 1952-2012, which deals especially with the collapse of British manufacturing in the late twentieth century, and David Kynaston’s The City of London: Club No More: 1945-2000, which chronicles the corresponding failure of British financial institutions and their displacement by international competitors.
Could be quite a good cure for hubris and arrogance ! :smirk:
Contrail designer
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 12:36 pm

speedbored wrote:
True. But that is a purely political decision, not an economic one, and it seems that the EU "masters" prefer to take a huge economic hit rather than compromise on those "principles". Makes sense if your priority is the European political union and maintaining the elite's gravy train. Makes far less sense if your priority is the economic well-being of the people they are supposed to be serving..


The common market in its form does exist for the well-being of the people living there. That is why large chunks of the elites hate it so much, can´t have people just go where wages are higher.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 12:47 pm

"That is why large chunks of the elites hate it so much, can´t have people just go where wages are higher."
Funny thing in the UK is that the elites are the largest supporters of the EU and the Remain faction, go figure.....
The election may well see more elites kicked out of parliament, comes a point in time when you at least have to give the appearance of listing to the people.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 12:52 pm

par13del wrote:
Funny thing in the UK is that the elites are the largest supporters of the EU and the Remain faction, go figure.....


I am sure you have empirical data supporting that claim, especially separating elite in the context used here (fat cats) and elites in the sense of educated people.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 1:00 pm

Pihero wrote:
Eurofighters ? They are an Airbus product...


Saudi Arabia's Eurofighters are built by BAE Systems in the UK as are the Omani ones.

So no, more of a jointly owned BAE/Airbus/Alenia product with separate production lines.

JJJ wrote:
If Japan asked to join the Asian Union or whatever name they came up with, sure they would.


You honestly think people in Japan would accept that? Or vice versa?

Given the bad blood that still exists over the war, we're supposed to believe people in Japan and China would accept the other making laws for each other like the EU member states do via the EU institutions?
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 1:16 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
JJJ wrote:
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm not comfortable with this. What organisation excludes fully paid-up members from decision making? If the EU 27 want to exclude the UK, then perhaps it would be incumbent on them to refuse UK contributions, which I don't see happening.


But UK was part of writing these rules a few years back! :-) So you mean that rules agreed between EU 28 shall only be valid if FREXIT, SWEXIT etc happens and not Brexit?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 1:18 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
So no, more of a jointly owned BAE/Airbus/Alenia product with separate production lines.


That is just final assembly, afaik all Eurofighter components have just one manufacturer.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 1:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
The common market in its form does exist for the well-being of the people living there. That is why large chunks of the elites hate it so much, can´t have people just go where wages are higher.

best regards
Thomas


In Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia we do not have 9 hours contracts, low salaries etc. I think many people in UK mix what is a national business and EU business.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 1:19 pm

speedbored wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The ‘four freedoms’ of the European Union are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders. These key principles lie at the heart of the EU and underpin the single market. So far no country has been allowed to enjoy two or three freedoms without granting the other ones.

True. But that is a purely political decision, not an economic one, and it seems that the EU "masters" prefer to take a huge economic hit rather than compromise on those "principles". Makes sense if your priority is the European political union and maintaining the elite's gravy train. Makes far less sense if your priority is the economic well-being of the people they are supposed to be serving.

seahawk wrote:
the EU is in no position to grant a favourable deal.

Why not? Seems to me it is more about "don't want to" than "can't", regardless of the price that will have to be paid by people on both sides.


Well, it is kind of like asking for having a better deal than any EU member. Full access to the huge market, full control of immigration and no money transfer to help reduce the economic and social standards within the EU.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 1:23 pm

UK over and over told EU that it is non democtratic, Fascist, Nazist organisation that is lead by a drunk...

EU people in UK are treated worse for each day etc.

Now UK wants it all without paying a penny. Do UK really think the rest of EU to be stupid?

When EU27 after a few month consideration what is in the interests of EU27 says no, UK consider us as fascists?

I expect the governments of the EU27 to take care of my interests not UK interests.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:05 pm

When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:08 pm

olle wrote:
UK over and over told EU that it is non democtratic, Fascist, Nazist organisation that is lead by a drunk...

EU people in UK are treated worse for each day etc.

Now UK wants it all without paying a penny. Do UK really think the rest of EU to be stupid?

When EU27 after a few month consideration what is in the interests of EU27 says no, UK consider us as fascist
I expect the governments of the EU27 to take care of my interests not UK interests.


Please, if you want to rant, OK but get a few facts right.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:22 pm

olle wrote:
Now UK wants it all without paying a penny. Do UK really think the rest of EU to be stupid?

But why should there be "pennies" to pay? The money we currently contribute goes to pay for the politics and bureaucracy. If all we are doing is trading, what would we supposedly be paying for? Will the EU offer to pay for access to the UK market as well?

I really don't see why so many people think it is too much to ask for that we be allowed to continue selling goods and services to the EU, as we do now, in return for allowing the EU to continue to sell even more goods and services to the UK.

As far as I can see, all that is standing in the way of a very simple common-sense agreement is too many egos.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:23 pm

LAH1 : "Please, if you want to rant, OK but get a few facts right"
... and what in your opinion wasn't right in his post ?.
Oh yeah ! I know : he forgot to mention "gangsters" and "maffia", not forgetting the "WW2-style punishment beatings" apparently in use in France, along with the "baloney" we're supposed to spout in common with Germany.
Maybe no one noticed the way Speedbored writes about "EU masters" ?
Contrail designer
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:24 pm

olle wrote:

EU people in UK are treated worse for each day etc.



Nope.

But you got one thing right:

https://youtu.be/XPgiI46FCDU
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