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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:29 pm

Pihero wrote:
Maybe no one noticed the way Speedbored writes about "EU masters" ?

I use the term "masters" correctly in accordance with the English language. Any inference of malice or ulterior meaning is entirely in your mind.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:30 pm

speedbored wrote:
I really don't see why so many people think it is too much to ask for that we be allowed to continue selling goods and services to the EU, as we do now, in return for allowing the EU to continue to sell even more goods and services to the UK.

As far as I can see, all that is standing in the way of a very simple common-sense agreement is too many egos.


Because UK market is an internal market with 65 millions people only ?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:35 pm

speedbored wrote:
The money we currently contribute goes to pay for the politics and bureaucracy.


you may want to look at the number of employees the European Commission has in total and compare that with a medium sized city.

I really don't see why so many people think it is too much to ask for that we be allowed to continue selling goods and services to the EU, as we do now, in return for allowing the EU to continue to sell even more goods and services to the UK.


That is just like someone from Taiwan or Japan asking Americans why they don´t just delete the 2nd Amendment. There is just one common market, and you are either in it or not. I don´t see how that is so difficult to grasp. Go to Volkswagen and ask if you can buy 75% of a Golf. You won´t get it, and if you get it at spare part prices, that 75% car will end up costing more.

You also seemed to have missed that the EU is in no way demanding stuff from the UK that isn´t applicable to any other country, while the UK wants the rule book tossed out in its case.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 2:46 pm

speedbored wrote:
olle wrote:
Now UK wants it all without paying a penny. Do UK really think the rest of EU to be stupid?

But why should there be "pennies" to pay? The money we currently contribute goes to pay for the politics and bureaucracy. If all we are doing is trading, what would we supposedly be paying for? Will the EU offer to pay for access to the UK market as well?

I really don't see why so many people think it is too much to ask for that we be allowed to continue selling goods and services to the EU, as we do now, in return for allowing the EU to continue to sell even more goods and services to the UK.

As far as I can see, all that is standing in the way of a very simple common-sense agreement is too many egos.


Well, this might require agreeing on common standards which means in the end still bowing to the EU masters. And this becomes a problem when you want full freedom to make trade agreements with third countries.
The UK also wants full control of immigration but the expats should be left untouched.

In the end it would be easy to find a workable solution, it is just questionable if the Brexit supporters would accept it.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 3:51 pm

speedbored wrote:

It will only be bad economically for the UK if the EU decides that it must be - if all of the people involved can set aside their egos and inject some common sense then a sensible agreement should be possible that keeps the economic impact on both sides to almost non-existent. After all, even though the UK stands to take the biggest single hit in the event of non-agreement, given the current balance of trade, the EU stands to take an even bigger hit as a whole, and some member countries will likely suffer badly, especially if there is also no agreement regarding the rights of expats.

What many in the EU do not seem to understand is that the majority of Brits now seem willing to take the pain of a recession if it means we rid ourselves of those self-serving politicians and bureaucrats who care more about their political experiment, and their own wealth and power, than they do about the people they are supposed to serve. Many recent statements coming out of Brussels are only reinforcing that view.


Odd post. First, you assure us that Brits are willing to suffer economically to get rid of European bureaucracy. Then you chide the EU for placing its 'principles' over economic well being. At first glance, the EU's position seems very similar to the Brexiteer position, no? It's all about principles first, with economic well-being a tertiary consideration.

In any event, it seems even the pro-Brexit crowd see merit in the recent use of the word "deluded":

"Now, of course negotiations are at an early stage and it would be perfectly normal for Juncker to take a very tough line at this point, but his observation that May might be ‘deluded’, at least so far as the size of the task that lies ahead is concerned, might well, sadly, not be so far off the mark."

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/44 ... eal-brexit

The article goes on to cite a column by Christopher Booker (evidently a known euro-skeptic).

Makes the rest of us wonder if some of you UK posters have a grasp on what Brexit actually entails. Because if the global economy goes sideways on the back of this, you can bet your last penny that the rest of the world are going to blame the revolutionaries, not the status quoists, for tipping over the cart.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 4:03 pm

If the world economy tips over because of one country leaving a trading bloc then that would mean the worlds economy is pretty stupidly set up to begin with.

Oh well, burn down the village to save the city and all that.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 4:09 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
speedbored wrote:

It will only be bad economically for the UK if the EU decides that it must be - if all of the people involved can set aside their egos and inject some common sense then a sensible agreement should be possible that keeps the economic impact on both sides to almost non-existent. After all, even though the UK stands to take the biggest single hit in the event of non-agreement, given the current balance of trade, the EU stands to take an even bigger hit as a whole, and some member countries will likely suffer badly, especially if there is also no agreement regarding the rights of expats.

What many in the EU do not seem to understand is that the majority of Brits now seem willing to take the pain of a recession if it means we rid ourselves of those self-serving politicians and bureaucrats who care more about their political experiment, and their own wealth and power, than they do about the people they are supposed to serve. Many recent statements coming out of Brussels are only reinforcing that view.


Odd post. First, you assure us that Brits are willing to suffer economically to get rid of European bureaucracy. Then you chide the EU for placing its 'principles' over economic well being. At first glance, the EU's position seems very similar to the Brexiteer position, no? It's all about principles first, with economic well-being a tertiary consideration.


Not really tertiary. The EU thinks it is economically better, at least in the long run, to make a clear distinction between in the market and outside the market. The UK thinks, at least officially advertisement wise, that the UK will be better of outside the EU regardless of what agreement they achieve. But they negotiate as if the UK would just thrive if it keeps access to the common market. So, it seems the UK government isn't as deluded as they appear to be, but they don't say so in public, because Ms. May has no shot in winning the election if she has to be honest in public.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 4:14 pm

LAH1 wrote:
olle wrote:
UK over and over told EU that it is non democtratic, Fascist, Nazist organisation that is lead by a drunk...

EU people in UK are treated worse for each day etc.

Now UK wants it all without paying a penny. Do UK really think the rest of EU to be stupid?

When EU27 after a few month consideration what is in the interests of EU27 says no, UK consider us as fascist
I expect the governments of the EU27 to take care of my interests not UK interests.


Please, if you want to rant, OK but get a few facts right.


I frequent reads telegraph, daily mail and independent online. At least two of them more of less every day uses expressions confirming my comments.

The UK goverment and its ministers not talking about many MPs have made comments that makes the rest of EU suprised.

Mrs may even seems surprised when the other EU 27 creates a common strategy for negotiation.

Mrs Merkel or was it Mrs Hitler, was right to say the UK has illusions.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 4:33 pm

olle wrote:

I frequent reads telegraph, daily mail and independent online. At least two of them more of less every day uses expressions confirming my comments.


Oh dear, he's taking clickbait papers like the Mail and Independent seriously.

What next, using National Enquirer as a source for what goes on in America?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 4:37 pm

So far the UK politicians and elites have not been talking up the Commonwealth, just visiting various members.
Funny thing is they essentially "abandoned" the Commonwealth for the EU so when they start talking up things other than access to the single
market we can say they are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 4:41 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
If the world economy tips over because of one country leaving a trading bloc then that would mean the worlds economy is pretty stupidly set up to begin with.

Oh well, burn down the village to save the city and all that.


If your post is representative of the average Brexiteer's understanding of the global economy, then we have much to fear.

Disruption to large markets can have an adverse impact on the global economy. This is basic stuff. It's a necessary outcome of globalization/free trade, which I gather is quite a popular idea with some Brexiteers.

Is it a stupid system? Depends on your ideological inclination. I suspect the juche-adherents in self-sufficient North Korea think it's very stupid.

Interesting point about burning a village to save a city. One Winston Churchill understood the strategic benefits of that concept better than anyone else. Witness the bombing of Coventry. I suppose it's a good example of why major strategic decisions aren't decided by referendum.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 4:58 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:

Oh dear, he's taking clickbait papers like the Mail and Independent seriously.

What next, using National Enquirer as a source for what goes on in America?


So only BBC is valid?

My point is that UK need to recognize that EU27 has the right and obligation to protect its interests just as UK has its right and obligation.

In this specific question and in matters like budgets and other questions considering post 2019 the EU parlament and Commision only speaks for EU 27. UK presents an idea that UK should still be considered but it will be a 3rd party country.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 5:12 pm

olle wrote:

So only BBC is valid?



Compared to the Mail & Indy? Does a Bear shit in the woods?
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 5:27 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
olle wrote:

So only BBC is valid?



Compared to the Mail & Indy? Does a Bear shit in the woods?


I get the point ;-) Problem is that UK elit seems to follow BBC and considering the Brexit referendum the Mirror, Daily mail etc had a major impact.

What Junker tried to say is that normally a trate agreement takes 6 + years not 8 month to negotiate.

Regarding the UK immigrants on the continent and EU immigrants in UK there need to be calculations about cost of health care etc. Who shall pay for them. It also demands that this kind of questions - the divorce bill is handled before looking at he future - trade deal.

I think that also for EU the true is that a trade deal that normally take 6+ years cannot be forced to reality in 6 month. Someone need to tell this to the UK people.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 5:40 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Klaus wrote:
In those selected images included in the video to drive the intended message home. With said images not difficult to come by in that situation, of course, with Britain in the process of throwing all the things away the 27 have been working decades on to build and which may be jeopardized for all due to that unilateral decision. [...]

Oh not evil, just immature.


That's an absurd over-interpretation of a small video snippet, and one which is not at all consistent with the reality of intra-european conduct among national leaders.


speedbored wrote:
It will only be bad economically for the UK if the EU decides that it must be - if all of the people involved can set aside their egos and inject some common sense then a sensible agreement should be possible that keeps the economic impact on both sides to almost non-existent.


The EU view is that simply the automatic consequences of Brexit are already devastating, and that the EU may mitigate that somewhat, but not by compromising on its essentials such as the four freedoms and not to the point of making an exit attractive to existing members.

So the outcome will most likely be that way, but not as a result of european malice as brexiteers keep insinuating, but as automatic consequence of their own decision and by necessary protection of the Union.


par13del wrote:
"Imho May tries the old British tactic of asking the EU for a special deal, which they got often while being a member, but with declaring Article 50 they have removed the strongest reason they were given special deals, which was to keep the UK in the EU."
Except it did not work, the former PM tried to get concessions to satisfy his population, he failed miserably, for a proponent of the EU he somewhat became a laughing stock of the other 27, in some quarters it does not appear as if he was taken seriously, which in effect was the concerns of his people.


The problem with your line of thinking is that you seem completely fine with the destructive, blackmail-based approach of british governments and your only problem with it seems to be that that blackmail just didn't happen to work. Don't you think you should question this a bit more?
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 6:46 pm

olle wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
olle wrote:

So only BBC is valid?



Compared to the Mail & Indy? Does a Bear shit in the woods?


I get the point ;-) Problem is that UK elit seems to follow BBC and considering the Brexit referendum the Mirror, Daily mail etc had a major impact.

What Junker tried to say is that normally a trate agreement takes 6 + years not 8 month to negotiate.

Regarding the UK immigrants on the continent and EU immigrants in UK there need to be calculations about cost of health care etc. Who shall pay for them. It also demands that this kind of questions - the divorce bill is handled before looking at he future - trade deal.

I think that also for EU the true is that a trade deal that normally take 6+ years cannot be forced to reality in 6 month. Someone need to tell this to the UK people.


If Junker and by default the EU thinks things will take 6 years why is Art50 devised to take only 2? Granted it wasn't ever imagined to be used but presumably someone thought it out.

Regarding immigrants let's not forget who turned down May's proposal to leave the status quo regarding EU citizens living in the UK in return for the same benefits for UK citizens in the EU.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 7:30 pm

"The problem with your line of thinking is that you seem completely fine with the destructive, blackmail-based approach of british governments and your only problem with it seems to be that that blackmail just didn't happen to work. Don't you think you should question this a bit more?"

The time for that discussion was when DC returned from the EU meeting after making the threat. To question it now is something which should be debated in a classroom, but if I were to question anything, it would be based on the analogy of where there is smoke there is fire. In the EU today, there are a lot of member citizens who have serious concerns with the EU and its operations, unfortunately to the people it seems as if there concerns are not being addressed or are falling on deaf ears, and with the UK leaving, everything now is on hold as unity is more important.
Honest question, of the remaining 27 members, if a vote were held on an in and out question of EU membership, what percentage of OUT votes do you think would be cast? If between 30 - 40% I would say the EU has a serious problem.
If as stated in some quarters that the EU is a natural out-growth of wanting to ensure that WWIII is not Europe driven, then internal problems or not, the vast majority of member citizens would / should vote IN.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 7:54 pm

LAH1 wrote:


If Junker and by default the EU thinks things will take 6 years why is Art50 devised to take only 2? Granted it wasn't ever imagined to be used but presumably someone thought it out.

Regarding immigrants let's not forget who turned down May's proposal to leave the status quo regarding EU citizens living in the UK in return for the same benefits for UK citizens in the EU.


2 years was designed to be impossible and very much in favour of EU in front of the leaving party. The time is calculated for the divorce not including a new relationship agreement.

The commision did not have the right to negotiate. While no divorce applcation "Article 50" was given to EU there was nothing to discuss about. The commision or parlamenty did not have the legal right to start such negotiation.

The UK government tried to make the normal game -> talk directly to Paris and Berlin for special treatment. This has been done before but UK government probably missjudged that the EU27 had given up on UK already. Therefore the message this time follow the rules like all of us this time -> First Article 50, Divorce bill -> new relationship. This is really what is all about, UK still wants special treatment, EU27 says our single market / 4 freedoms is more important.

UK see EU as a bumber of biliteral trade agrrements. EU27 see EU as something much bigger. A freedom to work, study live in Europe as European citizens.

Personally I right no plan to buy a small flat in northen italy and I need EU for getting healthcare when I am pensioneer as a Euroean cirizen. Not a Swedish citizen.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 8:48 pm

LAH1 : "If Junker and by default the EU thinks things will take 6 years why is Art50 devised to take only 2? Granted it wasn't ever imagined to be used but presumably someone thought it out."
Article 50 only deals with the withdrawal and two years is the longest period of time Article 50 allows for these negotiations.
The agreement has to be approved by a "qualified majority " :20 countries representing at least 65% of the EU population.
IIRC, Barnier thinks it could be done in a period of some 18 months ( which allows the national / regional parliaments to accept or reject the agreement in the remaining six months)... please note that one month has already been wasted, another coming.
May thinks that 4 days a month would be enough... considering vacations ... etc... she really does think she could succesfully manage both the withdrawal and the trade agreement during that period.

Good luck, lady !

Of course, there is a way to extend that period : a unanimous vote by all remaining 27 countries ( that includes, by the way, and once again, parliaments, be they national or regional).
I'm not too optimistic about that happening. :sarcastic:
Contrail designer
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 9:10 pm

olle wrote:
UK see EU as a bumber of biliteral trade agrrements. EU27 see EU as something much bigger. A freedom to work, study live in Europe as European citizens.


Much more than that, the EU is a community with shared values and protects those rights.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 02, 2017 9:11 pm

LAH1 wrote:
If Junker and by default the EU thinks things will take 6 years why is Art50 devised to take only 2? Granted it wasn't ever imagined to be used but presumably someone thought it out.


Because those 2 years are reserved for just the exit negotiations, which is still extremely challenging if you don't want your country to just crash out on the street in your undies, but it should still be somewhat feasible if you really apply yourselves.

That new trade negotiations (if so desired) will take a lot longer than 2 years is understood, but are not the object of Article 50 (except that they are expected to begin only after the country has already exited!). That's among the things you'd better consider before declaring to leave.

Regarding immigrants let's not forget who turned down May's proposal to leave the status quo regarding EU citizens living in the UK in return for the same benefits for UK citizens in the EU.


She hadn't declared Article 50 yet, so there was nothing to discuss.

Now she has, and now she's saying that EU cititzens' rights should effectively be scrapped altogether and they should get dropped to the same status as citizens from any third country, which of course is utterly unacceptable to the EU and by implication also to british expats in the EU who'd possibly have to expect a similar fate.

It just seems the british government has invested no serious thought into any of this at all yet, and that while the clock is running and they already have too little time to get the work done as it is!


par13del wrote:
"The problem with your line of thinking is that you seem completely fine with the destructive, blackmail-based approach of british governments and your only problem with it seems to be that that blackmail just didn't happen to work. Don't you think you should question this a bit more?"

The time for that discussion was when DC returned from the EU meeting after making the threat.


The time for responding to that threat, yes. And the response pretty much was: "We're fed up with your threats; We're willing to offer some final concessions, but that's as far as it goes. Take it or leave it!"


To question it now is something which should be debated in a classroom, but if I were to question anything, it would be based on the analogy of where there is smoke there is fire. In the EU today, there are a lot of member citizens who have serious concerns with the EU and its operations, unfortunately to the people it seems as if there concerns are not being addressed or are falling on deaf ears, and with the UK leaving, everything now is on hold as unity is more important.


Nothing is "on hold" on the EU side – the EU is actually preparing to steam ahead with the mostly dead weight of Britain about to be gone. The EU has always been in progress and in continuous change and reform, and Britain had been a drag anchor on many projects while actively participating only in some, and even that only with the usual cherry-picking approach.

Britain's situation, on the other hand, is a very different matter. But not our problem any more since they chose to do this to themselves despite all the warnings.

Honest question, of the remaining 27 members, if a vote were held on an in and out question of EU membership, what percentage of OUT votes do you think would be cast? If between 30 - 40% I would say the EU has a serious problem.


As we've seen in Britain it is easy to manipulate populist plebiscites with empty propaganda lies. When the actual, practical consequences have to be considered in any kind of realistic detail, things look very different, though, and one of the main reasons why plebiscites should remain very strictly limited is that representative political debates and decisions are usually a much better way than whipping up a lynch mob for a referendum and then only afterwards trying to rescue the country from the horrid mess that's the result because the actual issues and consequences had just been trampled down and completely ignored in the stampede to the polls.

If as stated in some quarters that the EU is a natural out-growth of wanting to ensure that WWIII is not Europe driven, then internal problems or not, the vast majority of member citizens would / should vote IN.


So far the elections do confirm that.

The problems many people face have nothing at all to do with the EU but with the policy direction which originated with Margret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan in the 1980s, progressively crippling the state, slashing public regulations and oversight and workers' and citizens' rights and steering incomes away from the lower brackets towards the very top.

This ideology gripped almost all countries globally to a varying degree and the result has been a steady erosion of public and thus civic influence to the benefit of corporations, the more the larger they were.

And as with its emergence, this ideology needs to be cut back country by country and the ideological excesses need to be corrected there first and foremost, because the EU has actually very little control over most of the matters people complain about. Most of these issues are national ones!

The EU is also controlled by the national governments first and foremost, so the most popular political directions in the nation states tend to express themselves in the shared european (council) policies, too. But the directly elected European Parliament has actually asserted its power more and more in recent years, and it has emerged as a rather civic- and consumer-minded corrective to boneheaded national ideologues.

Still, the EU was only used as a scapegoat in the Brexit campaign, even though it had nothing to do with the real issues (and other nationalists elsewhere ride the same lies in their campaigns), but it was convenient for national british politicians to pretend that those problems were actually not their doing but allegedly the "evil" EU's instead.

Completely bonkers once you really look at the facts, but with the rabid and completely unconstrained propaganda media in Britain they actually got away with it, ironically handing even more control over their own lives exactly to those people who had made them as miserable as they already were!

It would almost be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 12:03 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 14436.html

Can't seem to decide how much money they want.

Although if they think they are getting that much they are as you're all fond of saying......."Living in another galaxy"?
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 12:19 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-divorce-bill-100bn-eu27-demands-contributions-a7714436.html

Can't seem to decide how much money they want.

Although if they think they are getting that much they are as you're all fond of saying......."Living in another galaxy"?



Independent wrote:
The revised estimate reflects the hardening of many EU27 countries towards the UK’s demands.


After Britain just deliberately and without any need tossing a spanner into the EU works by blocking the budget revision process for all 28 members, how can there still be surprise about the other 27 now diverting their suddenly unemployed budgetary attention to the british accounts instead?

It looks increasingly as if Britain isn't done yet screwing itself to the max.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 12:44 am

You're asking for absurd amounts of money now.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 5:23 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
You're asking for absurd amounts of money now.


Nah, they just dropped playing nice, because the UK just stopped being a serious negotiating partner, when they started to sabotage the European Union by withholding they "yes" to the budget with made up, bogus reasons. If negotiating money related issues is a no-no in the UK, then negotiating anything regarding Brexit should be beyond imagination. It has much more and longer lasting effects after all compared to a budget plan.

If you are about to get divorced, and you plan to separate in a reasonable, adult way, you would probably also change your mind when your soon to be ex-partner serves your dog for dinner.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 5:49 am

The UK blocking the EU budget, demanding part of the EU assets, EU countries demanding 100Billion € shows that Junker is right. It is less then 50% chance that there is a negotiation finishing in a deacent way -> meaning no trade agreement during a number of years. This is quit different compared to what the Brexit campain presented it last year.

In many countries of the EU27 the Brexit will become national politics and has become national politics. Eastern Europe is following racist attacs in UK, France is following the border control mess, Germany is irritated having German, EU politicians as Nazi leaders. Daily mail readers is about to recognize that there is similar readers in all EU27 and there is forces to play them in similar way back.

My consideration is that this can finish very bad.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 6:18 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:

JJJ wrote:
If Japan asked to join the Asian Union or whatever name they came up with, sure they would.


You honestly think people in Japan would accept that? Or vice versa?

Given the bad blood that still exists over the war, we're supposed to believe people in Japan and China would accept the other making laws for each other like the EU member states do via the EU institutions?


There was enough bad blood between France and Germany or Germany and Poland and look at them now.

Intertwine their economies, institute cultural, student, etc. exchange programs, give it a few decades and done.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 6:27 am

JJJ wrote:
There was enough bad blood between France and Germany or Germany and Poland and look at them now.


just look at the line of argument the French had during the Versailles negotiations.... "We heard German guns in Paris 3 times in the last 100 years.......".

Bad blood is an understatement. I remember times where some, older, French people wouldn´t tell you the way to the loo if they knew you are German....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 7:36 am

This is becoming like an episode of "Yes Minister"

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last 500 years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?

James Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.

James Hacker: Surely we're all committed to the European ideal.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Really, Minister.

James Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact. The more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up. The more futile and impotent it becomes.

James Hacker: What appalling cynicism.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes. We call it diplomacy, Minister.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
olle
Posts: 1399
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 7:40 am

tommy1808 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
There was enough bad blood between France and Germany or Germany and Poland and look at them now.


just look at the line of argument the French had during the Versailles negotiations.... "We heard German guns in Paris 3 times in the last 100 years.......".

Bad blood is an understatement. I remember times where some, older, French people wouldn´t tell you the way to the loo if they knew you are German....

best regards
Thomas



The problem is that these European wars never ended until EU was created. Napoleon invaded Germany 1790-1814, Germany France 1870 etc.

The 1914-1918 is even more complicated:

Who started it? Serbia? Serbia was together with Russia, Russia with France and belgium, Belgium with UK.

So from Austria + Germany point of view they were attacked!

France and Uk consider on the other hand that Germany was the attacker.

So my point is that change a chain of conflicts of this was impossible, and EU succeeded.

This is for example my vew of Israel Palestinian conflict as well... In order to make peace a similar change need to happen.
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 8:28 am

JJJ wrote:

There was enough bad blood between France and Germany or Germany and Poland and look at them now.

Intertwine their economies, institute cultural, student, etc. exchange programs, give it a few decades and done.


Their economies already are intertwined. Doesn't change the fact that there is still an enormous amount of hostility 72 years on in a way there isn't in Europe.

Don't worry, the bad blood between Britain and Europe after you petulantly ask for 100 billion Euros won't be anywhere near as bad.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 8:57 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Don't worry, the bad blood between Britain and Europe after you petulantly ask for 100 billion Euros won't be anywhere near as bad.


you´d think we´d care about them being pissed about the severance pay, that they knew they had to pay perhaps to a few billion give or take, before they made the decision on their free will? It is not like those are penalty payments, it is just an add up of financial obligations the EU has due to the UK membership. That is just an accountants job and not really something for negotiations....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
Posts: 3417
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 8:59 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

There was enough bad blood between France and Germany or Germany and Poland and look at them now.

Intertwine their economies, institute cultural, student, etc. exchange programs, give it a few decades and done.


Their economies already are intertwined. Doesn't change the fact that there is still an enormous amount of hostility 72 years on in a way there isn't in Europe.


If you don't give any yardstick even Burundi and Laos are intertwined.

We're talking Champions League vs National League here.
 
olle
Posts: 1399
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 9:14 am

I just read that 100 billion is before the UK rebate is considered.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21353
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 11:34 am

Dano1977 wrote:
This is becoming like an episode of "Yes Minister"


Still quite amusing, and uncomfortably close to the way Britain did in fact try to operate within the EU.

The problem is just that this kind of conduct tends to erode alliances since those tend to be built on a certain level of trust. And without alliances it's difficult to survive successfully nowadays, even for the biggest countries.

"Divide and conquer" works to some extent when you're a large imperial power and you're trying to keep the others from turning into viable competition, but not so well when you're just a mid-sized country with a vulnerable and badly structured economy on your own.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3417
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 11:53 am

Klaus wrote:
"Divide and conquer" works to some extent when you're a large imperial power and you're trying to keep the others from turning into viable competition, but not so well when you're just a mid-sized country with a vulnerable and badly structured economy on your own.


Which some trading partners of the UK are fond of reminding them.

ACP
https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... ve-deluded

India
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/edi ... 34121.html

And even the US has put the UK back of the line after the EU.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstal ... 509043a770

The UK has been riding on the EU coattails on the world stage for long, and the world has moved a lot from the 50s and 60s.
 
vrbarreto
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:22 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 12:26 pm

Yeah and whose idea was it to call the possible trade deal with India: 'Empire 2.0'. Let me guess... the one with South Africa will be called: 'Apartheid 2.0' and the one with Australia: 'Convict 2.0'
 
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par13del
Posts: 9597
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 1:16 pm

So a question on the new bill, unlike a marriage divorce, the separating members will not be responsible for the daily lives of the divorced members, the expat's who continue to live in the separated houses cannot expect to be maintained as if they remained with the other parent.
An opening gambit in the negotiations, but the EU has stated that they expect the UK standard of living to go down, expecting the UK to maintain benefits for expat's at the EU level is out there.

An actuarial valuation for Pensions for example is required to get the current value that the UK should pay based on its prior obligations, do I believe that has already taken place and is included in the EU bill....it may be but I seriously doubt it.
We all agree that the UK will receive zero contributions from the EU budget after the divorce, so one can expect that the EU budget would be
smaller since the millions of UK citizens living in the UK will no longer be members expecting benefits, project, EU jobs etc., and we can include the folks in the other UK territories. The complicating factor appears to be that the UK has been a net contributor versus a benefactor, if we were to include the Thatcher rebates the disparity would be even greater.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 10658
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 1:42 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
This is becoming like an episode of "Yes Minister".


Ah yes, Yes, minister, brilliant comedy series. And unfortunately close to the truth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkpS-yBj7gY

And on the EEG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYuoWyk8iU
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
Posts: 1399
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 2:19 pm

The budget is pretty much pushed by eastern Europe. they know that in 2020 a new budget will come and their higher GDP figures achieved during the last few years will mean that they will receive less. But they have a number of projects like highways and infrastructure already paid for and they want to finish them.

I know also that in Baltic states and Poland the treatment of their citizens in UK is first pages, with racist violence and other actions creates discussions I did not hear before. On Sunday aq polish family here in Stockholm who have cousins living in UK since 20 years says: "Polish people is not welcome in UK anymore".
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 2:23 pm

par13del wrote:
An actuarial valuation for Pensions for example is required to get the current value that the UK should pay based on its prior obligations, do I believe that has already taken place and is included in the EU bill...


With the EU wanting that in Euros and the UK wanting to pay in Pounds...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LAH1
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 3:01 pm

olle wrote:
The budget is pretty much pushed by eastern Europe. they know that in 2020 a new budget will come and their higher GDP figures achieved during the last few years will mean that they will receive less. But they have a number of projects like highways and infrastructure already paid for and they want to finish them.

I know also that in Baltic states and Poland the treatment of their citizens in UK is first pages, with racist violence and other actions creates discussions I did not hear before. On Sunday aq polish family here in Stockholm who have cousins living in UK since 20 years says: "Polish people is not welcome in UK anymore".


Well I live here and I haven't seen front page stories about racist violence against EU citizens since the first few times when some morons (all countries have them) decided they'd use it as an excuse to vent their hormones. Nearer to the truth is that the UK wants to control not halt immigration using it's own arbitrary rules. I have to say that "Poles living in Stockholm with relatives in the UK saying..." is a bit like saying "my neighbours best friend once mentioned to their postman's aunt that..........."

I'm sure everyone has a story to tell and feelings that may or may not be hurt but it seems that life goes on more or less as it always has here with or without the noises from Westminster. Whether or not posters agree, I still maintain that even if it was before Art 50 was invoked, May's offer to sort out citizen rights should have been accepted as a staring point, but it wasn't about money was it, so others simply didn't want to know.
 
olle
Posts: 1399
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 3:27 pm

So why did not UK trigger A50 a few weeks after the Brexit result? UK by the way wanted to start all negotiations and wait with A50 until the end.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21353
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 3:50 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
An actuarial valuation for Pensions for example is required to get the current value that the UK should pay based on its prior obligations, do I believe that has already taken place and is included in the EU bill...


With the EU wanting that in Euros and the UK wanting to pay in Pounds...


The EU budget is demoninated in Euros and will remain so. I very much doubt that the EU27 would agree to a pegged exchange rate for any remaining and future payments with all the likely fluctuations of the Pound Britain is causing with Brexit.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21353
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 3:53 pm

par13del wrote:
So a question on the new bill, unlike a marriage divorce, the separating members will not be responsible for the daily lives of the divorced members, the expat's who continue to live in the separated houses cannot expect to be maintained as if they remained with the other parent.


There are tons of legal and financial issues to consider about the status of the respective expats, and that makes it even more baffling that May seems to believe that this could be done in just a few days by simply demoting all expats to third-country foreigners. Well, it could, theoretically, but that would be utterly horrible and life-changing in a bad way for those affected, and the EU27 will not accept that.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9597
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 3:58 pm

"So why did not UK trigger A50 a few weeks after the Brexit result?"
....because the government who initiated the referendum thought it was just a formality and the people of the UK would not vote to leave.
It was very intelligent on their part to wait since they first had to get a new PM - DC quit in shock - and wait for the entire political electorate to revive themselves from the shock of the vote result.
Also, there were many in the UK and EU who thought it made no sense to commence negotiations until the French and German elections were completed since those governments would be the prime movers and shakers on any negotiations...so far the latter has proven correct.
Triggering Article 50 for triggering sake would not have been a smart move, at least they attempted to put some negotiation infrastructure in place prior to the move.

As mentioned, this will be a complicated process so we need not give in to semantics for everything.
 
vrbarreto
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:22 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 4:00 pm

olle wrote:
The budget is pretty much pushed by eastern Europe. they know that in 2020 a new budget will come and their higher GDP figures achieved during the last few years will mean that they will receive less. But they have a number of projects like highways and infrastructure already paid for and they want to finish them.

I know also that in Baltic states and Poland the treatment of their citizens in UK is first pages, with racist violence and other actions creates discussions I did not hear before. On Sunday aq polish family here in Stockholm who have cousins living in UK since 20 years says: "Polish people is not welcome in UK anymore".


It's just that the racist and xenophobic shitbags are more vocal and think wrongly that brexit means that they can express their views in public. They'll eventually lapse back into their Tennants special knuckle dragging stupor in time..

Laughable speech by Zelda from the terrahawks today accusing the eu of trying to influence the general election she called early to try and increase her majority..

Next week she'll be accusing the Russians, Vulcans and the local squirrels.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 12171
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 4:06 pm

I was listening to a business radio where they talk about markets, stocks, economic prospects, etc., and both asset managers were saying that they feel either Brexit won't happen or there will be a light Brexit.

One said that public opinion in the UK was now against Brexit, is that true ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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par13del
Posts: 9597
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 4:29 pm

Regardless of the public opinion, both major parties have stated that they will honor the referendum vote to leave, so the political apparatus is already in play, there will be a Brexit, what type depends on the deals negotated.

One politician has stated that he would have another referendum, but since he is not a party leader and will not be one in the next two years, that promise will only hold in the future if and when he does become a party leader.
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 5:00 pm

olle wrote:
So why did not UK trigger A50 a few weeks after the Brexit result?

Because the UK supreme court prevented it until an act of parliament was passed to provide the required legal authority to do so. The court case and parliamentary procedures took time to complete.

olle wrote:
UK by the way wanted to start all negotiations and wait with A50 until the end.

No we did not. Never at any stage did I see anyone in government seriously suggest that - we were always clear that we had to trigger A50 before negotiations could start.

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