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User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 5:03 pm

Aesma wrote:
One said that public opinion in the UK was now against Brexit, is that true ?

Opinion polls being taking for the upcoming UK elections suggest that the opposite is true - more people are coming out in favour of Brexit.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 5:11 pm

After the provocation of the EU and the aggressive and destructive behaviour against the UK, this is no surprise.
 
vc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 5:39 pm

I think the feeling in the UK is slowly becoming more in favour of Brexit than it was last year, but I have to say that it is based on a small number of people ,
i.e. my friends and family. This is being helped along by the aggressive behaviour of certain EU officials as seahawk has suggested, and also by the very biased reporting of the BBC, so much so that I do not trust their reporting any longer.

One thing I do not understand about the discussions on this subject is the strong feelings coming from the rest of the EU on this subject, not only from the politicians, but also from people on a,net. Surely the EU is not a prison and a country should be allowed to leave without all this nastiness, surely that was why Article 50 was included in the treaty. Now there has to be discussions as to how things should be split up and monies divided ,but can't these be done in a less aggressive way than has been portrayed over the last few days After all in the end we all have to get along .
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 5:55 pm

vc10 wrote:
Surely the EU is not a prison and a country should be allowed to leave without all this nastiness, surely that was why Article 50 was included in the treaty. Now there has to be discussions as to how things should be split up and monies divided ,but can't these be done in a less aggressive way than has been portrayed over the last few days After all in the end we all have to get along .


Right, so why does the UK behave like a soon to be ex-wife, that filed for it, but wants to keep all the ups of the marriage, but just get rid of the downsides?

Of course EU officials are getting somewhat pissed since not a single reasonable position has come from the UK government yet? In the beginning they even had a 100% pure "keep it all, but pay nothing" approach, took them long enough to accept that full access to 3/4 of the common market, while getting full controll over the rest won't happen....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LAH1
Posts: 153
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 6:03 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
vc10 wrote:
Surely the EU is not a prison and a country should be allowed to leave without all this nastiness, surely that was why Article 50 was included in the treaty. Now there has to be discussions as to how things should be split up and monies divided ,but can't these be done in a less aggressive way than has been portrayed over the last few days After all in the end we all have to get along .


Right, so why does the UK behave like a soon to be ex-wife, that filed for it, but wants to keep all the ups of the marriage, but just get rid of the downsides?

Of course EU officials are getting somewhat pissed since not a single reasonable position has come from the UK government yet? In the beginning they even had a 100% pure "keep it all, but pay nothing" approach, took them long enough to accept that full access to 3/4 of the common market, while getting full controll over the rest won't happen....

Best regards
Thomas


You make it sound so simple and one sided. How about the "think of a number, double it, take away 5 million, add your granny's birthday and multiply by 37" and we have what we're owed" stance we are getting.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 6:05 pm

vc10 wrote:
my friends and family. This is being helped along by the aggressive behaviour of certain EU officials as seahawk has suggested, and also by the very biased reporting of the BBC, so much so that I do not trust their reporting any longer.



You know that seahawk was just trolling no?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 6:28 pm

I don't think that it is Brexit that most folks are coming around to, that happened when the vote results were announced, what most folks are coming around to is a Hard Brexit. As the vote was leave, the EU supporter's then gravitated to the Hard and Soft Brexit which I think is where most EU members on the continent get confused, the UK wanting this and the UK wanting that. Remainers want a Soft Brexit and want that enshrined in law even though they have no clue what the EU demands will be, those in favour of a Hard Brexit want to give the EU little if anything.

The election is supposed to determine whether the country's official negotiating position will be hard or soft.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 6:37 pm

LAH1 wrote:
You make it sound so simple and one sided.


Because it is...

How about the "think of a number, double it, take away 5 million, add your granny's birthday and multiply by 37" and we have what we're owed" stance we are getting.


I am pretty sure that the zero digits after the dot breakdown of the number will be public in due time. I am also pretty sure that you won't find any mention of birthdays, multiplication by a 37 without factual reason or an imaginary starting number in it, as I am sure that hordes of accountants from both sides will discuss every single line of it.
It is quite natural that the number will increase in the preparatory phase as people think about more and more cost blocks and models to project those into the future. If the current number is 100 billion, I am pretty sure that any reasonable person, even if they completely disagree with the result, will be able to see that the number was arrived at in a consistent and reasonable way. It will be the UK sides job to identify accounting errors, redundancies and overly pessimistic outlooks in their favor. Whatever number goes through the media will almost definitely be the ceiling of current results, I would expect the actual number to be no higher than whatever number will be in the media at that time for that reason, and likely a good chunk, but not drastically lower.

On the other hand the common market is the founding principle of the European Union, as the UK knew and had a large stake in pushing forward. It has always been crystal clear that full access, but no free movement of people is not going to happen under any circumstances. There is no reasonable way to arrive at that negotiating position.

The EU is also not sabotaging the working of the UK government in the way the UK government does the EU workings by blocking a budget they themselves helped to draw up. And don't say the government can't agree to spending during the election campaign, then they shouldn't be able to negotiate any brexit related issues until after the election either.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LAH1
Posts: 153
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 7:02 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
You make it sound so simple and one sided.


Because it is...

How about the "think of a number, double it, take away 5 million, add your granny's birthday and multiply by 37" and we have what we're owed" stance we are getting.


I am pretty sure that the zero digits after the dot breakdown of the number will be public in due time. I am also pretty sure that you won't find any mention of birthdays, multiplication by a 37 without factual reason or an imaginary starting number in it, as I am sure that hordes of accountants from both sides will discuss every single line of it.
It is quite natural that the number will increase in the preparatory phase as people think about more and more cost blocks and models to project those into the future. If the current number is 100 billion, I am pretty sure that any reasonable person, even if they completely disagree with the result, will be able to see that the number was arrived at in a consistent and reasonable way. It will be the UK sides job to identify accounting errors, redundancies and overly pessimistic outlooks in their favor. Whatever number goes through the media will almost definitely be the ceiling of current results, I would expect the actual number to be no higher than whatever number will be in the media at that time for that reason, and likely a good chunk, but not drastically lower.

On the other hand the common market is the founding principle of the European Union, as the UK knew and had a large stake in pushing forward. It has always been crystal clear that full access, but no free movement of people is not going to happen under any circumstances. There is no reasonable way to arrive at that negotiating position.

The EU is also not sabotaging the working of the UK government in the way the UK government does the EU workings by blocking a budget they themselves helped to draw up. And don't say the government can't agree to spending during the election campaign, then they shouldn't be able to negotiate any brexit related issues until after the election either.

Best regards
Thomas

No it really isn't.

If you look at your post you'll see that all the reasonableness comes from the EU and it's to the UK to argue out of it whereas in real terms it's got to be both sides. You are simply seeing it from an" EU is always reasonable side". You can't wonder that the UK see it the other way round. The greater the figure (and if they are not accounted for why start broadcasting them unless to raise the temperature) the less the government will want to be seen to pay.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 7:27 pm

The EU position has been well known for a long time.... The UK press and politicians has been describing it as project fear and said that soon EU27 countries will see the light and accept UK with better terms then the EU27 members.

UK want to have access to the single market and wants a market it can sell its services to and not 27 different markets. So even UK should see the interest in conserving this market.

Therefore it is not even in UK interests to get what it says it wants because in the same moment it gets what it wants all paying countries will leave and then the receiving countries leaves and we are back 30 years in time.

So UK people and government need to understand and this fast that EU27 to preserve them self will not be too nice to UK. They rather looses the UK market compared to loose the EU27 single market.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 10:36 pm

Here is a piece in the Daily Mail (Yeah I know I know)

Forget the £90billion - Europe owes us £58Billion.

Caveat - It's the daily mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -58bn.html
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 10:39 pm

vc10 wrote:
I think the feeling in the UK is slowly becoming more in favour of Brexit than it was last year,


Rather the other way around.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 04566.html
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 11:02 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
Here is a piece in the Daily Mail (Yeah I know I know)

Forget the £90billion - Europe owes us £58Billion.

Caveat - It's the daily mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -58bn.html


it is amusing at least.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Wed May 03, 2017 11:21 pm

The claim to the European Investment bank is legitimate but I don't think it was in doubt.

I'm not convinced by the 12,5% number used for the share contributed by the UK, can someone confirm this ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 5:08 am

I find rather fun that May accuse EU to disturb elections she called. I would like to understand what could be the interest for the EU to help a pro brexit Corbyn ?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 5:25 am

LAH1 wrote:
You can't wonder that the UK see it the other way round. .


So, please do explain in some detail how wanting full access to 3/4 of the market while getting full control over one quarter of it is a negotiating position you can reasonably arrive at.

If you can´t, all you just wrote are just words with no meaning aside of "no, no, no, you are wrong".

EU Chief negotiator Michel Barnier just told the media that, before having an exact number for the Brexit bill, the EU and UK have to agree on a calculation method first and refrained to comment on the number.

Those EU facists are really playing hardball, even with the UK throwing wooden shoes into the workings of the EU, they are still talking about negotiating and reaching an agreement........

The Poison list gets longer.....

- EU Citizens rights in the UK shall be subject to the ECJ ruling power. Hence a court without UK judges will sits above UK courts in Brexit treaty related matters. This will be much harder to negotiate than a few billion give or take.
- EU Property and Money are EU Property as per law, and are not to be discounted from the severance bill.
- example: European Medical agency has a lease until 2039, and with the agency moving, the UK has to take that over. That is about 350 million in rent.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 5:53 am

In this article (Independent I know ;-) )

it is mentioned that part of the money is for example loans to ireland that will only be paid in case that Ireland cannot honour its obligations.

Part of the monay go back to UK as part of defined budget etc.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 16051.html
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 7:29 am

Olddog wrote:
I find rather fun that May accuse EU to disturb elections she called. I would like to understand what could be the interest for the EU to help a pro brexit Corbyn ?


If you have to get into a fight with a dog, would you rather fight a labrador (Corbyn) or a rottweiler? :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 7:34 am

olle wrote:
In this article (Independent I know ;-) )


Most interessting:

Finally, it’s important to recognise that EU politics is less confrontational and more cooperative than the weekly screaming matches in Westminster. Since leaving the mainstream centre-right group in Parliament, the EPP, in 2009, the Conservative Party has become more detached from how EU politics works.


best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LAH1
Posts: 153
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 am

tommy1808 wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
You can't wonder that the UK see it the other way round. .


So, please do explain in some detail how wanting full access to 3/4 of the market while getting full control over one quarter of it is a negotiating position you can reasonably arrive at.

If you can´t, all you just wrote are just words with no meaning aside of "no, no, no, you are wrong".

EU Chief negotiator Michel Barnier just told the media that, before having an exact number for the Brexit bill, the EU and UK have to agree on a calculation method first and refrained to comment on the number.

Those EU facists are really playing hardball, even with the UK throwing wooden shoes into the workings of the EU, they are still talking about negotiating and reaching an agreement........

The Poison list gets longer.....

- EU Citizens rights in the UK shall be subject to the ECJ ruling power. Hence a court without UK judges will sits above UK courts in Brexit treaty related matters. This will be much harder to negotiate than a few billion give or take.
- EU Property and Money are EU Property as per law, and are not to be discounted from the severance bill.
- example: European Medical agency has a lease until 2039, and with the agency moving, the UK has to take that over. That is about 350 million in rent.....

best regards
Thomas


I thought it was quite clear. One side sees negotiations as starting from one point whilst the other side sees differently. What one side or the other actually wants is neither here nor there before negotiations start, that's what negotiations are for. For one side to say "No, until XYZ is done we won't talk" seems a funny way of negotiating.

As for the ECJ, the way things are going they'll be either very very busy or irrelevant.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 8:09 am

scbriml wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I find rather fun that May accuse EU to disturb elections she called. I would like to understand what could be the interest for the EU to help a pro brexit Corbyn ?


If you have to get into a fight with a dog, would you rather fight a labrador (Corbyn) or a rottweiler? :scratchchin:


Oh please, come on. The EU meddling in the UK elections? So the EU should say nothing and just walk along the dotted line laid down by prime minister May? She provoked article 50, when she wanted, she initiated the general elections, when she wanted. And the EU can't move in those months, can't lay down its position on something as important as the Brexit, because May does the things she does? I will call it rhetoric of Westminster because of the upcoming elections, should not be paid to much attention to it.
And making clear where the EU stands in the Brexit, might actually help the voters. The Brexit will be one of the big election points I guess and how parties / MP's are going to deal with it. Heck, May is on record, saying she wants a bigger mandate for a hard Brexit, so don't you feel the Brits have a right to have the point of view of the EU-27 on this? And what it actually is going to mean, a hard Brexit?

The Brits have to make a hard choice here. Like I said before, they need to choose where on the line they would like to be: hard Brexit, no entitlements from the EU, no access to the internal marked or the Norwegian option, most entitlements, but also pay their fair share and implementing the rules, or somewhere in between. Their choose, not the choice of the EU-27. And that is what the upcoming elections should be all about.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 8:15 am

scbriml wrote:
If you have to get into a fight with a dog, would you rather fight a labrador (Corbyn) or a rottweiler? :scratchchin:


In both case a toothless dog...
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 8:15 am

LAH1 wrote:
One side sees negotiations as starting from one point whilst the other side sees differently. What one side or the other actually wants is neither here nor there before negotiations start, that's what negotiations are for


Only that one side has a reasonable starting point and the other has a completely of the rockers deluded one. Even a UK MP agrees May is deluded, while praising the much less confrontational tone form the EU side.

Imagine a Job interview, when you get to the money part.

"I want 60k"
"We are more thinking about 50k for this slot"

and then you negotiate.....

Brexit pre-"negotiations" are along the lines of:

"I want 60k"
"We are more thinking about you working for free, and also we get to sleep with your wife"

you´d just stand up and leave, everybody would.......

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 8:26 am

tommy1808 wrote:
"I want 60k"
"We are more thinking about you working for free, and also we get to sleep with your wife"

you´d just stand up and leave, everybody would.......

best regards
Thomas


That might be the case Thomas, but there is where your analogy fails, the EU and the UK are forced to make some kind of arrangement, so nobody has the ability to walk away.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 8:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
That might be the case Thomas, but there is where your analogy fails, the EU and the UK are forced to make some kind of arrangement, so nobody has the ability to walk away.


I know, that is why it is good that the reasonable partner is still sitting at the table instead of getting up and leaving with a "you know what, screw you".

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 8:41 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That might be the case Thomas, but there is where your analogy fails, the EU and the UK are forced to make some kind of arrangement, so nobody has the ability to walk away.


I know, that is why it is good that the reasonable partner is still sitting at the table instead of getting up and leaving with a "you know what, screw you".

best regards
Thomas


Yeah. This part of game theory does not work on diplomatic issues. Varoufakis found out the hard way and so will May if she continues to go down this path. It will bring Brittain and the EU nowhere.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 9:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
Yeah. This part of game theory does not work on diplomatic issues. Varoufakis found out the hard way and so will May if she continues to go down this path. It will bring Brittain and the EU nowhere.


Exactly, just as Trump is getting a crash course in how being Manager of a large company is just about the easiest thing there is. You get to name your price, and unless it is too unreasonable, you will find a supplier. If you discuss with nation states, you have to come to an agreement, because in this case: if you don´t reach an agreement with the EU, there is no other EU you can go to.
Diplomacy is a lot like negotiating with an exclusive importer or the only supplier, you either come to an agreement, of you won´t have the product.

May does the same, Varoufakis did...... well, smart people learn from other peoples mistakes, stupid people from their own.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 9:34 am

The word "Blackmail" is used very often here by some posters to describe the UK's side in negotiations.
Now, to me, if one side says -"OK, lets put all our cards on the table, everything is there for discussion" whilst the other side says "Either you pay us (plucks figure out of air) before we sit down or we walk" I think any reasonable person would see there's only one side using blackmail techniques and it isn't the UK. Mind you, I did say reasonable.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 9:35 am

Pretty brutal article in the Observer about Jean Claude Juncker

http://observer.com/2017/05/jean-claude ... ls-brexit/

The European Union has committed suicide in the shape of a press leak in a German newspaper over Brexit. The details of last Wednesday’s dinner between President Jean-Claude Juncker and Theresa May exposed why Brussels will be the ultimate loser from Britain’s departure.


Juncker won’t agree to the British demand for parallel talks about free trade and the divorce bill, because he doesn’t care about free trade. He doesn’t even care about the $60 billion lump sum he talks about handing London. What Juncker cares about is securing an ongoing payment from British taxpayers so it can be business as usual for his government.


his refusal to do a quick deal for EU nationals. May wants to announce next month that all Europeans in the U.K. and all Brits in Europe will be given permanent residence in their respective countries. But Juncker said no—not until he gets his money.


He is an unelected dictator
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 9:44 am

LAH1 wrote:
The word "Blackmail" is used very often here by some posters to describe the UK's side in negotiations.
Now, to me, if one side says -"OK, lets put all our cards on the table, everything is there for discussion" whilst the other side says "Either you pay us (plucks figure out of air) before we sit down or we walk" I think any reasonable person would see there's only one side using blackmail techniques and it isn't the UK. Mind you, I did say reasonable.


You just forget one thing: there are existing rules. The UK would like that the EU break its own rules to negotiate about everything. Since the article 50 process started a lot of things are off the table and the clock is ticking.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 9:54 am

Olddog wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
The word "Blackmail" is used very often here by some posters to describe the UK's side in negotiations.
Now, to me, if one side says -"OK, lets put all our cards on the table, everything is there for discussion" whilst the other side says "Either you pay us (plucks figure out of air) before we sit down or we walk" I think any reasonable person would see there's only one side using blackmail techniques and it isn't the UK. Mind you, I did say reasonable.


You just forget one thing: there are existing rules. The UK would like that the EU break its own rules to negotiate about everything. Since the article 50 process started a lot of things are off the table and the clock is ticking.


Exactly. Brittain agreed to the spending and how it is divided among its members. So the figure isn't "plucked out of the sky", it is a number which has a reasonable case for it.
I don't subcribe to the word "blackmail" is used in this context, from either side.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 10:14 am

Dano1977 wrote:
Pretty brutal article in the Observer about Jean Claude Juncker

http://observer.com/2017/05/jean-claude ... ls-brexit/

The European Union has committed suicide in the shape of a press leak in a German newspaper over Brexit. The details of last Wednesday’s dinner between President Jean-Claude Juncker and Theresa May exposed why Brussels will be the ultimate loser from Britain’s departure.


Juncker won’t agree to the British demand for parallel talks about free trade and the divorce bill, because he doesn’t care about free trade. He doesn’t even care about the $60 billion lump sum he talks about handing London. What Juncker cares about is securing an ongoing payment from British taxpayers so it can be business as usual for his government.


his refusal to do a quick deal for EU nationals. May wants to announce next month that all Europeans in the U.K. and all Brits in Europe will be given permanent residence in their respective countries. But Juncker said no—not until he gets his money.


He is an unelected dictator


That article seems to cover a parallel universe and shows that @andrejpwalker lacking even a basic understanding how the EU actually works and the role of mr. Juncker plays, most apparent calling him a dictator. It is not Juncker whom decides anything, it are the member states who decide with veto power and they came to an agreement how to handle the Brexit. First, the divorce then talks about new trade deals.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 11:10 am

scbriml wrote:
If you have to get into a fight with a dog, would you rather fight a labrador (Corbyn) or a rottweiler? :scratchchin:


It's rather fighting a dog which doesn't know if he wants to fight, pee, bark or if he wants to ne a dog ať all vs. a clueless dog who only wants that it is 1970s again.

Dano1977 wrote:
article in the Observer about Jean Claude Juncker


I am the first to admit that no one has done more damage to the EU than high school dropout - turned lifetime apparatchik Schulz and that drunkard Juncker, however shouldn't you be more concerned about the quality of YOUR own lineup of politicians who are supposed to navigate YOUR country though the uncharted waters of brexit? If I were British and saw how little homework they have done between July and Apríl, I would be seriously concerned.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 11:30 am

LAH1 wrote:
-"OK, lets put all our cards on the table, everything is there for discussion" whilst the other side says "Either you pay us (plucks figure out of air) before we sit down or we walk" I think any reasonable person would see there's only one side using blackmail techniques and it isn't the UK. Mind you, I did say reasonable.


only of course that you are using alternative facts....

- the number doesn´t come out of thin air, there is no reason to assume such
- the EU is not saying money first, before any talks, they are saying money is the first talking point on the agenda, because without settling that first, all other talking point become null and void, because without that being agreed upon no treaty will be possible, while minor details of trade agreements can be pushed to a later date. Plus it should be the easiest thing to agree on, since that is pretty much just an accountants job to figure that one out. Plus the EU chief negotiator being on record that the sum and how it is going to be calculated is something the UK and the EU have to agree on before he even comments on those numbers
- The UK doesn´t offer all cards of the table, Mays "We don´t have to pay a penny" is just one card on the table, where "we have to agree on a calculating method, but some working group arrived at 100 Billion so far" is a lot of cards. The UK is putting a single card on the table ("pay nothing"), and the EU "blackmails" with "this is the card we think is right, but we have to agree first which cards will be in the deck".

Zero € is a very specific number, much, much, much more specific than "The UK will have to pay for all financial EU commitments they have been a party to, and we will see how much that will be after agreeing on how to calculate that".

Ok, blackmail may be to strong a word, stupidity is more like it. Because if someone goes to a Bazar, demanding the product they like for free, no one will think black mail. They will just think "dang.. he really didn´t look like someone riding the short bus".

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 11:42 am

Dano1977 wrote:
Pretty brutal article in the Observer about Jean Claude Juncker

http://observer.com/2017/05/jean-claude ... ls-brexit/

The European Union has committed suicide in the shape of a press leak in a German newspaper over Brexit. The details of last Wednesday’s dinner between President Jean-Claude Juncker and Theresa May exposed why Brussels will be the ultimate loser from Britain’s departure.


Juncker won’t agree to the British demand for parallel talks about free trade and the divorce bill, because he doesn’t care about free trade. He doesn’t even care about the $60 billion lump sum he talks about handing London. What Juncker cares about is securing an ongoing payment from British taxpayers so it can be business as usual for his government.


his refusal to do a quick deal for EU nationals. May wants to announce next month that all Europeans in the U.K. and all Brits in Europe will be given permanent residence in their respective countries. But Juncker said no—not until he gets his money.


He is an unelected dictator



And someone here wrote that i did not give an correct picture how uk is presenting eu

Only missing junker as drunk and merkel as hitker!


Smart strategy....
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 11:57 am

So to be clear, the EU looks at its rules / regulations / laws whatever they are and says that the UK has a bill of 100bill or more.
The UK, a current member of the EU who assisted in drafting said rules / regulations / laws whatever they are says that they are not obligated to pay.

In this situation, how do we determine that the EU is correct and the UK is wrong? Is anyone saying that this has to go to court?

Last thing I would add, the EU was designed as a grouping to ensure that once you joined, you could not leave, so unlike a marriage where we have decades of judiciary rulings and precedence, the founders of the EU never expected anyone to actually leave and the procedures put in place for leaving were designed to ensure that if you looked at them they would persuade you to choose not to leave, so with those principles, I can see where the possibility exist that all I's and T's were not crossed but left to the imagination or shock and horror, negotiations.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 12:03 pm

olle wrote:
Only missing junker as drunk and merkel as hitker!


Smart strategy....


The Observer makes one wonder if drugs got recently legalized in the UK.

In the meantime, trade deals will come into fruition from countries like America, Australia and Canada. If Juncker doesn’t care about Mercedes then perhaps he should ask President Donald Trump how much he’d like Detroit to inherit the lucrative British car market? And what will they say in Napa Valley to dropping the EU’s 70 percent tariff on imported wine?


I am sure everyone would agree to such deals, like those "proposed" to the US. But i guess, to use the observers language, May will just raise taxes a bit and evaluate the pound (=pay cut for all citizens) and spend that money to start a competitive car companies in the UK, plus a couple of Vineyards good enough to be competitive vs. California ....

Handing your markets to other nations isn´t a good negotiating tool, it is a recipe for disaster....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 12:23 pm

"Handing your markets to other nations isn´t a good negotiating tool, it is a recipe for disaster...."
....which is what the Remainer's in the UK are calling their Soft Brexit, or as others say the Norwegian model.....
The UK will no longer be a member of the EU decision making body, but still want full access to the common market, so in effect, they will be handing their market over to the EU.
Brexit will be a complicated issue.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 12:40 pm

par13del wrote:
....which is what the Remainer's in the UK are calling their Soft Brexit, or as others say the Norwegian model.....
The UK will no longer be a member of the EU decision making body, but still want full access to the common market, so in effect, they will be handing their market over to the EU.
Brexit will be a complicated issue.


well, market access will have full reciprocity and be for all products. US companies selling cars and wine to the UK gets the UK economy nothing.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 2:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
olle wrote:
Only missing junker as drunk and merkel as hitker!


Smart strategy....


The Observer makes one wonder if drugs got recently legalized in the UK.

In the meantime, trade deals will come into fruition from countries like America, Australia and Canada. If Juncker doesn’t care about Mercedes then perhaps he should ask President Donald Trump how much he’d like Detroit to inherit the lucrative British car market? And what will they say in Napa Valley to dropping the EU’s 70 percent tariff on imported wine?


I am sure everyone would agree to such deals, like those "proposed" to the US. But i guess, to use the observers language, May will just raise taxes a bit and evaluate the pound (=pay cut for all citizens) and spend that money to start a competitive car companies in the UK, plus a couple of Vineyards good enough to be competitive vs. California ....

Handing your markets to other nations isn´t a good negotiating tool, it is a recipe for disaster....

best regards
Thomas


The argument with Mercedes is really ridiculous. Mercedes is able to sell cars to the US despite there being a tariff.

On the other hand, will UK built cars (in record numbers) still be competitive on the EU market with a tariff ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 2:27 pm

Aesma wrote:
[
On the other hand, will UK built cars (in record numbers) still be competitive on the EU market with a tariff ?


I do think that EU Car manufacturers have facilities pretty much all over the place (read pretty much all EU countries) to make sure that all EU governments have an interest in Car manufacturing. With the UK leaving the UK, this will go away. We may see UK factories only for local demand in the future, if WTO tariffs apply. And with the big bye bye to economy of scale, we may see cars in the UK become more expansive (in PPP) than the same care on the continent.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 2:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
we may see cars in the UK become more expansive (in PPP) than the same care on the continent.

The car manufacturers have been ripping us off in the UK with prices ~50% higher than everywhere else for decades.

But who cares? If all the "UK is doomed" scare stories coming out of the EU at the moment come true then we'll all be back to using horses and carts soon anyway.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 2:54 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
Here is a piece in the Daily Mail (Yeah I know I know)

Forget the £90billion - Europe owes us £58Billion.

Caveat - It's the daily mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -58bn.html


Its a shame because the article had some interesting points about the UK capital in the bank and the shares in the assets but then it lost it and went all "isn't the EU wasteful, we should claim back stuff we could have done something about earlier but didn't". oh well, I guess that people who read the daily mail still think we gave the EU £350million per week, imbeciles.

Fred
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 2:56 pm

The EU will not win this, the Uk has a good chance to reach a great position even with a hard Brexit. The Uk should start talking with the USA about a common market and tell the EU goodbye.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 3:07 pm

speedbored wrote:
But who cares? If all the "UK is doomed" scare stories coming out of the EU at the moment come true then we'll all be back to using horses and carts soon anyway.


Most agree that the UK can expect an about 10% drop in GDP worst case-ish. That is not doomsday, not even close, but about a GFC reloaded, just without need.

Maybe UK Media works hard to paint the EU as going all doom and gloom, but i haven´t heard anyone being more pessimistic than the Bank of England over here... at least no one that matters in any form or shape.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 3:43 pm

seahawk wrote:
The EU will not win this, the Uk has a good chance to reach a great position even with a hard Brexit. The Uk should start talking with the USA about a common market and tell the EU goodbye.


What is winning in this concept?
Why has GB a great position?
UK can't start talking with the USA about a common market, not as long as they are part of the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 3:44 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Most agree that the UK can expect an about 10% drop in GDP worst case-ish. That is not doomsday, not even close, but about a GFC reloaded, just without need.


Losing 10% of the nation income is a very big deal. Brittian will survive, of course, but everyone will feel it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 3:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The EU will not win this, the Uk has a good chance to reach a great position even with a hard Brexit. The Uk should start talking with the USA about a common market and tell the EU goodbye.


What is winning in this concept?
Why has GB a great position?
UK can't start talking with the USA about a common market, not as long as they are part of the EU.


The UK is free to talk with whomever they want over whatever they want, there is no way for the EU to stop them. If the UK achieves trade agreements with the US, Canada, India and others instead of the EU, it will become the centre of global trade again, while the money no longer wasted by the EU will allow for reduced taxes and make Britain as a place to invest even more interesting. The money not given to the EU could be used for something good, instead of being wasted by the Eurocrats.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 3:49 pm

This probably doesn't help, but mr. Tusk is right:

“These negotiations are difficult enough as they are,” a sombre Tusk said at a press conference in Brussels. “If we start arguing before they even begin they will become impossible.

“The stakes are too high to let our emotions get out of hand because at stake are the daily lives and interests of millions of people on both sides of the Channel. We must keep in mind that in order to succeed we need today discretion, moderation, mutual respect and a maximum of goodwill.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 04, 2017 4:10 pm

seahawk wrote:
The UK is free to talk with whomever they want over whatever they want, there is no way for the EU to stop them.


If the EU was bad as ypu are trolling, they would use blackmail to stop that from happening. For geographical reason the EU will remain an very important market for the UK.

f the UK achieves trade agreements with the US, Canada, India and others instead of the EU,


And why would they agreen to a trade agreement out of good will? They will get trade agreements with them for sure, but they will know who needs it more importantly and has time working against them, and will of course use that to tilt any agreement slightly in their favor.
When I was till working sales, the easiest sell where "we need it the week after next" customers .... In a market with 4 to 8 weeks being normal lead times, that is an instant sale if you have a suitable product on stock. I never ripped those people off, just no rebates, some slight pressure to send the order right now... because you want them to come back.
Same should be the negotiation philosophy on both sides, but on the UK side there seems to be a "rip them off" mindset.

Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Most agree that the UK can expect an about 10% drop in GDP worst case-ish. That is not doomsday, not even close, but about a GFC reloaded, just without need.


Losing 10% of the nation income is a very big deal. Brittian will survive, of course, but everyone will feel it.


Of course, it just ain't doomsday....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
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