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seahawk
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 11:25 am

G7 is going great. Nice touch to not use the headphones for the translation of the speech by the Italian PM. I guess Trump is fluent in Italian...
 
aviationaware
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 12:40 pm

Pihero wrote:
- how much we can trust this guy ( hint : not a lot...)


You cannot trust any politician. So I don't really see how Trump is such a special case here. Politicians are all crooks, even Barack Obama aka the Holy Ghost himself.

Pihero wrote:
distractions of Brexit


Brexit is not a distraction, Brexit happened because the EU is rotten to the core and the EU elites have been powering into the wrong direction for years now without remorse. More will follow unless there is a change of direction.
The easiest and also best thing would be to revert the EU to what it was in the 1990s before the Euro. Basically a free trade zone with benefits. All changes made since then have only benefited multinational corporations and their billionaire owners. It's become much more difficult to start a small business virtually anywhere in the EU because everything is absolutely overregulated, the Euro is a structural failure that is technically impossible to fix, and the free movement of people has both depressed wage levels in the old EU countries, drained the new EU countries of workforce and also created massive security issues including spikes in crime in certain areas, and put massive stress on social security. A textbook failure. Only thing positive is cross-border workers not having to wait at the border anymore and many people not having to exchange currency for their vacation, yippee.
 
Pihero
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 2:29 pm

to aviationaware :

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah !
For us in the EU, the Brexit saga is being used by some as a distraction : You should accept the remark that the UK wants to be, in Brussels, the main subject of discussion... but in fact, we couldn't care less : the UK is for most of us, already a *third country* going, as far as the EU is concerned, into irrelevance...
... whether you personally like it or not ; Fortunately, your knowledge of what the EU is , is to say the least in grave error. , both in its conception and its nowadays problems... so that's also out of our concern ( another way of saying it is irrelevant ).

As for Trump, things are very simple : either we continue as allies and trade partners, or we don't... America's disengagement in many ways is to the benefit of the EU : Trump getting out of NATO;...> a defence initiative is coming out... Trump wanting a sort of protectionism :....> the EU 27 reiterate their solidarity, there is no way the US could treat Belgium and Germany in different ways...
So, you see I am a very big fan of Donald's. :mischievous:
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 3:53 pm

Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump): "Many NATO countries have agreed to step up payments considerably, as they should. Money is beginning to pour in- NATO will be much stronger."

I think he truly thinks that he has anything to do with that #sad

And still he thinks in terms of payments ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 4:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think he truly thinks that he has anything to do with that #sad


Of course he does. Which, of course, is another blow to the Russia conspiracy theory because Russia sure didn't want a President that ends up strengthening NATO.
 
KLDC10
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 4:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And still he thinks in terms of payments ;-)


Of course he does, because no matter how sanctimonious the sniveling leaders of European countries are (I'll single out France and Luxembourg because French President Macron and whoever the Prime Minister of Luxembourg is were videoed snickering during Trump's NATO speech), they're just plain freeloading. It isn't fair to expect countries like the USA and UK to foot the bill while everyone else just sits around all day.

I don't care, either, how many excuses are made about how "Europe spends money on peacekeeping and aid". If you joined NATO, you committed to spending 2% of GDP on Defense. Stop trying to weasel out of it.
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 4:18 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And still he thinks in terms of payments ;-)


Of course he does, because no matter how sanctimonious the sniveling leaders of European countries are (I'll single out France and Luxembourg because French President Macron and whoever the Prime Minister of Luxembourg is were videoed snickering during Trump's NATO speech), they're just plain freeloading. It isn't fair to expect countries like the USA and UK to foot the bill while everyone else just sits around all day.

I don't care, either, how many excuses are made about how "Europe spends money on peacekeeping and aid". If you joined NATO, you committed to spending 2% of GDP on Defense. Stop trying to weasel out of it.


Do you feel the same, if the US weasels out of some international commitment?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
KLDC10
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 4:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And still he thinks in terms of payments ;-)


Of course he does, because no matter how sanctimonious the sniveling leaders of European countries are (I'll single out France and Luxembourg because French President Macron and whoever the Prime Minister of Luxembourg is were videoed snickering during Trump's NATO speech), they're just plain freeloading. It isn't fair to expect countries like the USA and UK to foot the bill while everyone else just sits around all day.

I don't care, either, how many excuses are made about how "Europe spends money on peacekeeping and aid". If you joined NATO, you committed to spending 2% of GDP on Defense. Stop trying to weasel out of it.


Do you feel the same, if the US weasels out of some international commitment?


If it is something that has been signed and agreed upon, then yes, absolutely. Weaseling out of an agreement is not right - which is why, even though I am thoroughly opposed to the Paris Climate Change Agreement, I do not advocate the USA backing out of it now. It's a bad deal, but it has been agreed upon.
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 4:55 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:

Of course he does, because no matter how sanctimonious the sniveling leaders of European countries are (I'll single out France and Luxembourg because French President Macron and whoever the Prime Minister of Luxembourg is were videoed snickering during Trump's NATO speech), they're just plain freeloading. It isn't fair to expect countries like the USA and UK to foot the bill while everyone else just sits around all day.

I don't care, either, how many excuses are made about how "Europe spends money on peacekeeping and aid". If you joined NATO, you committed to spending 2% of GDP on Defense. Stop trying to weasel out of it.


Do you feel the same, if the US weasels out of some international commitment?


If it is something that has been signed and agreed upon, then yes, absolutely. Weaseling out of an agreement is not right - which is why, even though I am thoroughly opposed to the Paris Climate Change Agreement, I do not advocate the USA backing out of it now. It's a bad deal, but it has been agreed upon.


How do you feel about the The Hague Invasion act?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
GDB
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 6:03 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And still he thinks in terms of payments ;-)


Of course he does, because no matter how sanctimonious the sniveling leaders of European countries are (I'll single out France and Luxembourg because French President Macron and whoever the Prime Minister of Luxembourg is were videoed snickering during Trump's NATO speech), they're just plain freeloading. It isn't fair to expect countries like the USA and UK to foot the bill while everyone else just sits around all day.

I don't care, either, how many excuses are made about how "Europe spends money on peacekeeping and aid". If you joined NATO, you committed to spending 2% of GDP on Defense. Stop trying to weasel out of it.


France might not be spending what Trump thinks they should, however their taking part of every Coalition operation (and some where the US was not really involved, such as Mali in 2013), gives the lie that they are 'sitting around'.
Or is it the case that they were right about what would happen in Iraq in 2003 and beyond, I suspect many in the US still have not forgiven them for that.

My own view is that the UK should be looking at 2.5-3% however the long tradition of UK governments, of both major parties, wanting to play the part but not pay the cost in £ carries on.
Don't like how the PM of one nation acted, well what about Trump manhandling his way to the front of a photo op? If South Park's Eric Cartman lived to 70.........
 
KLDC10
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 6:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Do you feel the same, if the US weasels out of some international commitment?


If it is something that has been signed and agreed upon, then yes, absolutely. Weaseling out of an agreement is not right - which is why, even though I am thoroughly opposed to the Paris Climate Change Agreement, I do not advocate the USA backing out of it now. It's a bad deal, but it has been agreed upon.


How do you feel about the The Hague Invasion act?


The USA's signature on the Rome Statute was never ratified by the Senate, so the United States was never actually official part of the International Criminal Court. Now, for that matter, the Senate has not ratified the Paris Climate Deal either. On the latter subject, however, there is considerable debate over whether the deal can be considered a treaty in Constitutional terms. As you may be able to guess, the prevailing thought among Republicans, both during the Obama Administration and currently, is that it is a treaty as defined by the Constitution and should therefore be ratified by 2/3 of the Senate. If that view prevails, then even if Trump unexpectedly announces his desire for the USA to remain a signatory thereof, it could be dead on arrival in the Senate.

There is no doubt that the Rome Statute was a treaty of the kind for which the Constitution mandates a 2/3 Senate ratification. So I'm going to draw a very clear distinction between the two. On the International Criminal Court, it is my own view that the United States' joining thereof would be entirely unconstitutional. The Constitution makes the Supreme Court of the United States the highest court in the land - a position which would be usurped by a supra-national organization like the ICC. The idea that an international court would somehow be able to exercise judicial authority over American citizens is troubling. I'm not sure if you're into political dramas, but there was a great episode of 'The West Wing' which dealt with this issue. One of the main characters (Leo McGarry, White House Chief of Staff) had been a fighter pilot. During one of his raids, he had killed civilians alongside enemy combatants. The show explored the fact that he could legitimately have faced charges in The Hague for his actions if the USA was party to the ICC.

Now, the 'American Service Member's Protection Act' as the 'Hague Invasion Act' is officially titled does, I grant you, potentially provide the US Government with the authority to invade The Hague in order to secure the release of US Citizens held by the ICC. I do support the act, because it completely removes any incentive that the ICC might have to detain a US Citizen.

Finally, I hope my first post didn't appear too harsh. It was not intended to be rude, but reading it back it may appear somewhat direct.
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BobPatterson
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 6:51 pm

GDB wrote:
It's quite simple, why should anyone take advice from a crook and con man? It's what he is, what he has boasted about.
He's also another one from your side of the pond who combines being militarily aggressive and being a draft dodger in his youth, all rather pathetic really. When he attacked for some reason Estonia, their PM pointed out they had sent troops to Afghanistan, left unsaid was where were Trump's adult sons then? Oh right, killing wildlife in Africa pretending to be hunters. About right given who they are, where they come from family wise.

The NATO nations that are meeting the 2% or around that, (creative accounting included, another thing Trump does knows about), tend to be the ones with external commitments beyond the NATO area. UK, France being the main ones.
How's Trump's promise to destroy ISIS 'in 30 days' going?

But it's not all about money, take as an example Greece, pretty large armed forces, their AF in particular has more front-line fast jets than the RAF. But when was the last time they took part in ANY joint deployment?
Whereas the smaller nations, such as the Nordic ones so hated by the GOP for running their nations in a way deemed impossible by them, committed forces to Afghanistan and other deployments, take their turn in Air Policing missions, anti piracy and counter narcotics, alongside larger NATO nations.


You failed to respond to a single question put to you. Instead, you posted more bloviating on a variety of topics unrelated to those under discussion..

You did manage to bring up something new to me, "Nordic nations hated by the GOP". I wonder what that is supposed to mean?

Have a nice day in your unfocused world.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 6:53 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Now, the 'American Service Member's Protection Act' as the 'Hague Invasion Act' is officially titled does, I grant you, potentially provide the US Government with the authority to invade The Hague in order to secure the release of US Citizens held by the ICC. I do support the act, because it completely removes any incentive that the ICC might have to detain a US Citizen.


So you are okey with invading a NATO ally and defacto going to war over this. And second, what makes US Citizens so special that they are above the international law? And removing any incentive does the same, basically making sure no US Citizen can be touched. (other nations feel that they are above the international law also).

And the ICC has all kind of provisions, mainly the home country can first prosecute the person, if nobody does anything, then the ICC can go ahead. And it is kind of a political process.

KLDC10 wrote:
Finally, I hope my first post didn't appear too harsh. It was not intended to be rude, but reading it back it may appear somewhat direct.


I am Dutch, we all have a PHD in directness. ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Pihero
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 7:02 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And still he thinks in terms of payments ;-)


Of course he does, because no matter how sanctimonious the sniveling leaders of European countries are (I'll single out France and Luxembourg because French President Macron and whoever the Prime Minister of Luxembourg is were videoed snickering during Trump's NATO speech), they're just plain freeloading. It isn't fair to expect countries like the USA and UK to foot the bill while everyone else just sits around all day.



If one doesn't snigger during one of Trumps asinine rants, then one is brain dead
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BobPatterson
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 7:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And still he thinks in terms of payments ;-)


Of course he does, because no matter how sanctimonious the sniveling leaders of European countries are (I'll single out France and Luxembourg because French President Macron and whoever the Prime Minister of Luxembourg is were videoed snickering during Trump's NATO speech), they're just plain freeloading. It isn't fair to expect countries like the USA and UK to foot the bill while everyone else just sits around all day.

I don't care, either, how many excuses are made about how "Europe spends money on peacekeeping and aid". If you joined NATO, you committed to spending 2% of GDP on Defense. Stop trying to weasel out of it.


Do you feel the same, if the US weasels out of some international commitment?


I realize that you are the Topic Author. I don't know if the forum rules apply to someone who hijacks his own topic.

But why not stick to your subject -- NATO.

Other treaties/agreements deserve separate threads.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
KLDC10
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 7:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So you are okey with invading a NATO ally and defacto going to war over this. And second, what makes US Citizens so special that they are above the international law? And removing any incentive does the same, basically making sure no US Citizen can be touched. (other nations feel that they are above the international law also).


I honestly don't think it would come to that, and I wouldn't necessarily be happy about it, but I'd be supportive of it. If, for example, the ICC decided for some ridiculous reason to pursue charges against Bush and Blair over Iraq, then there's nothing the USA could do about Blair, but they should protect Bush, a former President.

The second point is a wider debate over who has ultimate judicial jurisdiction over an American Citizen. Is it the United States or a supra-national entity? I believe that it is the former and that the latter is incompatible with the Constitution. The ICC may well have processes and provisions, but if the USA doesn't accept those as legally binding, then they can't be enforced against an American Citizen.

Dutchy wrote:
I am Dutch, we all have a PHD in directness. ;-)


Wonderful! It's easy to forget about potential cultural in-sensitivities when posting on an international forum I'm afraid :lol:

Pihero wrote:
If one doesn't snigger during one of Trumps asinine rants, then one is brain dead


"Snicker" and "Snigger" are pretty much interchangeable.
On your second point, I'm afraid I must disagree. Trump was suggesting that European Leaders need to exercise better control over their borders and make sure that they meet their NATO obligations. There is absolutely nothing asinine about this. On the former point, unchecked migration can lead to the entry of potentially dangerous individuals, while on the second point, no one is asking NATO members to contribute the same literal amount of money as the USA, just a proportional amount (2% of GDP), which is a perfectly fair request and not at all asinine.

BobPatterson wrote:
Other treaties/agreements deserve separate threads.


This is true - the ICC could make for an interesting and thoughtful separate discussion.
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Redd
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 7:28 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Redd wrote:
You clearly know very little as you mentioned Beata Szydło to thank for policies that she has literally no say in, all those decisions belong to Kaczynski. Kind of like Putin and Medvedev when Putin was waiting to get the throne back. No one in this country, or anyone who knows how politics work here would make that mistake. Not even the foreign media make that mistake.


Kaczynski has influence, I concur. Poland is unusual in terms of parliamentary democracy insofar that the leader of the governing party (that is, Kaczynski) is not, in fact, Prime Minister.

Beata Szydlo as Prime Minister and Andrzej Duda as President represent the more moderate faces of the Law and Justice Party (and yes, I know that the latter resigned his party membership upon his election victory in 2015, but he clearly can still be associated with the party), while Kaczynski retains influence and could be considered the 'intellectual godfather', so to speak of his party's policies. Kaczynski is an influential figure, but the "nuts and bolts" work of running the country from day to day does not fall to him. He's clearly a "big picture" individual concerned with formulating broad policy ideas.

But that doesn't change the fact that Szydlo is the face of Poland. It is she, and not Kaczynski, who represents Poland on the world stage - regardless of the internal politics of the Law and Justice Party, she holds the office of Prime Minister, and it would be foolish to reduce her role simply to that of a puppet. So I will refer to her as a European Leader because that is her official position, and her position is clearer to the rest of us in the world than whatever dealings may be going on behind the scenes (rumors which often have a tendency to be exaggerated). Let's not allow emotions to cloud judgement here.


He has more than just influence, he pretty much holds the position of President and Prime Minister simultaneously. He disappeared during the election, like you mentioned to put a moderate face on the party through Szydło & Duda. Duda & Szydło had been unknown to the Polish public before their elections, there were not prominent politicians and not people that would ever have a chance at a big career in politics if it were not for Kaczynski. Perfect for Kaczynski as these are young politicians, inexperienced and uber loyal to Kaczynski for their positions.

When Kaczynski had to go to the hospital due to illness, Duda and Szydło disappeared from public view and refused to make any decisions until Kaczynski came back. As conspiracy theory as it may sound, Duda and Szydło are puppets, 100% puppets to Kaczynski, and other senior party members.

I actually voted for PiS as I wanted a change and shakeup to what was becoming a stale (but stable) political situate....... I'm disgusted with my decision for buying the moderate face show that they put on during the elections.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 7:48 pm

Pihero wrote:
Trump wanting a sort of protectionism :...

As you can see there is some common between France and the US...
 
Mortyman
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 8:09 pm

[code][/code]
seahawk wrote:
That was a fantastic speech by Trump. it takes balls to say, what needs to be said. Now it is time we sent the lazy liberal countries a bill for the money they own the USA. I think Trump will be remembered as the president who did the most for a European defence integration.


NATO does not owe you any Money. That is not how it Works.

Furthermore

Just like the US ows money to Saudi Arabia, Russia, and China, the US also ows money to several of it's NATO allies who has lent out Money ( not nesseserely related to NATO ) to the US, yet Trump is only chummy with the Arabs and the Russians and scholds his NATO allies ...

Back in 2008, Norway alone was the USA 12th biggest creditor, a fact that I doubt has changed for the better. Something that the US president should keep at the back of his head.
 
Pihero
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 8:09 pm

L410, :

:confused: :confused: :confused:
You should try and drink less of slivovive or keep away from the becherovka.... That will help your understanding of politics ( if it were true, would you be part of the EU, you who couldn't even manage to keep on an association of TWO countries ?)
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Aesma
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 11:10 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Trump silence on article 5 is the real news. Many us politicians have tried every type of reminder that European members need to meet their commitments. We haven't been persuasive enough so Trump is simply saying if Europe won't be serious why should we.

German companies make great cars but the vat rebate for exports helps sell cars in the USA.

Renegotiations are difficult but are long overdue.


"VAT rebate" is perfectly normal, just like I would pay no kind of sales tax if I imported a US car. The US doesn't even have a VAT so what are you complaining about ?
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Aesma
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sat May 27, 2017 11:29 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
As for real news, I still have not learned how much the new headquarters cost. Probably far too much.


Tell us, how much is too much?

"It cost just over €1.1 billion and will house some 4,500 employees" Or ca. 4.766/m2, which indeed is quite a lot, but given it is NATO, I would say not too extravagance. Of course, Trump could have done it for 250m, according to Trump.......

http://www.xpats.com/new-nato-headquart ... u1-billion

A lot will have gone into security and other measures. You don't want to have bugs build into it.


The cost for the size is not crazy, but 250.000m² for only 4500 people is insane.
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Aesma
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 12:39 am

GDB wrote:
France might not be spending what Trump thinks they should, however their taking part of every Coalition operation (and some where the US was not really involved, such as Mali in 2013), gives the lie that they are 'sitting around'.
Or is it the case that they were right about what would happen in Iraq in 2003 and beyond, I suspect many in the US still have not forgiven them for that...


Apparently Trump has praised France for its involvement in North Africa, so he seems to be aware of it. France is also taking part in the coalition against Daesh, including with troops on the ground in Iraq : 1200 men, 14 Rafale, a C-135FR, an Atlantique-2, and a CAESAR artillery unit laying shells on Mosul, quite ironic considering the 2003 precedent.
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keesje
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 12:04 pm

For our friends on the other side of the Atlantic, it's probably not on FOX, but the anti EU movement is definitely in retreat. Anti EU parties are loosing elections and looking at Brexit, Greece, Turkey, Russia, Refugees, Trump, ISIS mainland populations are concluding EU ain't so bad in the real world. Lot's of reasonably people in Brussels if you allow yourself to listen.

Even UK has second thoughts about being cut out, becoming uninformed, involved and less attractive. HQ's, students, intelligentsia, research programs, the mix of idealistic french, solid germans, flamboyant italians, ambitious polish, entrepreneurial dutch, rich scandinavians.. maybe better be with them than against them. Of course there are issues, but should the uninformed, emotional majority rule?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
GDB
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 12:32 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
GDB wrote:
It's quite simple, why should anyone take advice from a crook and con man? It's what he is, what he has boasted about.
He's also another one from your side of the pond who combines being militarily aggressive and being a draft dodger in his youth, all rather pathetic really. When he attacked for some reason Estonia, their PM pointed out they had sent troops to Afghanistan, left unsaid was where were Trump's adult sons then? Oh right, killing wildlife in Africa pretending to be hunters. About right given who they are, where they come from family wise.

The NATO nations that are meeting the 2% or around that, (creative accounting included, another thing Trump does knows about), tend to be the ones with external commitments beyond the NATO area. UK, France being the main ones.
How's Trump's promise to destroy ISIS 'in 30 days' going?

But it's not all about money, take as an example Greece, pretty large armed forces, their AF in particular has more front-line fast jets than the RAF. But when was the last time they took part in ANY joint deployment?
Whereas the smaller nations, such as the Nordic ones so hated by the GOP for running their nations in a way deemed impossible by them, committed forces to Afghanistan and other deployments, take their turn in Air Policing missions, anti piracy and counter narcotics, alongside larger NATO nations.


You failed to respond to a single question put to you. Instead, you posted more bloviating on a variety of topics unrelated to those under discussion..

You did manage to bring up something new to me, "Nordic nations hated by the GOP". I wonder what that is supposed to mean?

Have a nice day in your unfocused world.


You haven't watched any FOX or listened to any GOP goon slag off Nordic nations? Any and every chance they get. Want me to go find some clips showing just that, or shall I be nice and spare your blushes? There are many to choose from after all.

Then there are the ones about the British city of Birmingham being 98% Muslim and ruled by them, (it's less than 20% and not ruled by them, this from a FOX 'Terrorism expert!') That (and fellow fraudster and conspiracy nut Alex Jones) being your President's chief source of news. A man who cannot even handle a four page briefing, so down to one page it is. Who bitched about being away for nine days, well you wanted the job Donny.

It all looks a lot like projection, the easily panicked parts of the US populace (AKA GOP/Trump base). Easily frightened and very ignorant.
As for the rest, not worthy of a response.
Trump thinks that NATO are like some tenants he can claim rent from. Being essentially the world he knows that's not surprising.
 
GDB
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 12:40 pm

Mortyman wrote:
[code][/code]
seahawk wrote:
That was a fantastic speech by Trump. it takes balls to say, what needs to be said. Now it is time we sent the lazy liberal countries a bill for the money they own the USA. I think Trump will be remembered as the president who did the most for a European defence integration.


NATO does not owe you any Money. That is not how it Works.

Furthermore

Just like the US ows money to Saudi Arabia, Russia, and China, the US also ows money to several of it's NATO allies who has lent out Money ( not nesseserely related to NATO ) to the US, yet Trump is only chummy with the Arabs and the Russians and scholds his NATO allies ...

Back in 2008, Norway alone was the USA 12th biggest creditor, a fact that I doubt has changed for the better. Something that the US president should keep at the back of his head.


Good luck with that being in Trump's head, though there is plenty of space.
 
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keesje
Posts: 14095
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 1:42 pm

There was a time the Prez of the US didn't have to push around and pose like Mussolini to
get respect and get things done. The other guys knew he was smart & reasonable and they
could trust him, also when there were different interests.

Image

Image

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Yes, Trump was democratically elected and inherited a lot of money, but that doesn't make him a good president?! When will he visit Russia?

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 3:32 pm

A picture tells more than a thousand words...........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
Posts: 2450
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 8:25 pm

It seems like the French and Germans are sick and tired of Uk and US. merkel talks in public today and asks if EU can trust UK and US and that EU need to take responsibility for its own future.

UK had on behalf of US one big task while being inside EU. Kill all talk about common defense, security and foreign policy.

Mr Trump and Mrs May is making this agenda reality much faster then anyone could ever believe.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
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Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 8:27 pm

GDB wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
You did manage to bring up something new to me, "Nordic nations hated by the GOP". I wonder what that is supposed to mean?
.


You haven't watched any FOX or listened to any GOP goon slag off Nordic nations? Any and every chance they get. Want me to go find some clips showing just that, or shall I be nice and spare your blushes? There are many to choose from after all.
.


Ah, I get a sense now of why you are so unfocused. You waste your time watching FOX, thinking you are actually getting the news.

Rather than "find some clips" why don't you express, in your own words, the thoughts you want to convey? For instance, you could name a "GOP goon" and describe what he/she did or said with respect to a Nordic nation that, in your terms, amounts to "slagging off". After you have done that you might post a link to an article (words, data, not video, please) in support of your position.

Thanks.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10146
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 9:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Then the US car industry should make better cars, or do you suggest the Germans must buy an inferior product?


Germany has delivered good cars - but there have been some dogs. I owned '68 BMW 2002 and the cooling system was totally incompetent. Unable to handle an AC and I had to pull over in hot weather to let the engine cool. It was what I would expect from Yugo, certainly not Germany.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10146
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Sun May 28, 2017 10:41 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

How do you feel about the The Hague Invasion act?


Now, the 'American Service Member's Protection Act' as the 'Hague Invasion Act' is officially titled does, I grant you, potentially provide the US Government with the authority to invade The Hague in order to secure the release of US Citizens held by the ICC. I do support the act, because it completely removes any incentive that the ICC might have to detain a US Citizen.


The Act is a farce, brought to life by Radicalized Conservatives blindly following right wing nuts like Little Dick Cheney. Can you really see US Military Personnel invading The Hague to free a rapist, drug dealer or murder? You going to send in a Seal Team? Maybe a few Army Companies following a flock of cruise missiles?

Looking at previous crimes by US military personnel overseas it's pretty clear that the US has been responsible in our actions, without a need for invasion.

Back to topic, the US does spend a higher percentage that some NATO countries because the US has a wider range of geographic commitments. You only have to look at Korea to understand that. Then add the FUBARs in the Middle East. Trump has a problem comparing the scope of the US and other countries.

Trump is also the last guy complaining about others not "paying up". Here is a guy who consistently stiffed his contractors and tradesmen out of 30% of their bill. Last time was the DC Trump Hotel, where he stiffed electrical contractors who worked big overtime hours to met deadlines. One contractor took the stiff and the other filed suit.
 
KLDC10
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Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 12:06 am

Ken777 wrote:
The Act is a farce, brought to life by Radicalized Conservatives blindly following right wing nuts like Little Dick Cheney. Can you really see US Military Personnel invading The Hague to free a rapist, drug dealer or murder? You going to send in a Seal Team? Maybe a few Army Companies following a flock of cruise missiles?


Except that the ICC does not prosecute individuals accused of crimes like rape, drug dealing or murder. It prosecutes individuals accused of war crimes, or genocide. So the scenario you outlined would never occur. If, however, an American was accused of war crimes for launching a missile strike someplace, then yes, they should be protected.

Ken777 wrote:
Trump is also the last guy complaining about others not "paying up". Here is a guy who consistently stiffed his contractors and tradesmen out of 30% of their bill. Last time was the DC Trump Hotel, where he stiffed electrical contractors who worked big overtime hours to met deadlines. One contractor took the stiff and the other filed suit.


What the Trump Organization has allegedly done has absolutely no bearing on government business. They're two completely separate things. In the same manner Rex Tillerson doesn't advocate for the same things as Secretary of State, as he did during his time at the helm of ExxonMobil.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
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salttee
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Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 12:09 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Rex Tillerson doesn't advocate for the same things as Secretary of State, as he did during his time at the helm of ExxonMobil.

Are you sure about that?
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 12:19 am

salttee wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Rex Tillerson doesn't advocate for the same things as Secretary of State, as he did during his time at the helm of ExxonMobil.

Are you sure about that?


Pretty sure. He has taken a noticeably different stance towards Russia than he did at ExxonMobil. But that's only natural - ExxonMobil had something to gain from sanctions being lifted, but now he's in charge of the State Department. Concerns are different.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 1:26 am

KLDC10 wrote:
salttee wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Rex Tillerson doesn't advocate for the same things as Secretary of State, as he did during his time at the helm of ExxonMobil.

Are you sure about that?


Pretty sure. He has taken a noticeably different stance towards Russia than he did at ExxonMobil. But that's only natural - ExxonMobil had something to gain from sanctions being lifted, but now he's in charge of the State Department. Concerns are different.

Rex Tillerson spent 41 years at Exxon, he developed his world there, he rose to the top of Exxon in those 41 years, he convinced a lot of smart people that he was who he said he was. Do you seriously think that he's now going to change his world view (and say he was only kidding before)? I sure don't. The Trump administration is in handcuffs where it comes to sanctions, they cannot remove the sanctions on Russia now, they would cause a revolt in the Senate that would include, if not be led by, Republicans; even Putin knows that.

You are prognosticating a line that you know the Trumpistas would want sold to the public. But there is no evidence whatsoever that this leopard has changes his spots.
 
TheF15Ace
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:27 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 2:17 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Ken777 wrote:
The Act is a farce, brought to life by Radicalized Conservatives blindly following right wing nuts like Little Dick Cheney. Can you really see US Military Personnel invading The Hague to free a rapist, drug dealer or murder? You going to send in a Seal Team? Maybe a few Army Companies following a flock of cruise missiles?


Except that the ICC does not prosecute individuals accused of crimes like rape, drug dealing or murder. It prosecutes individuals accused of war crimes, or genocide. So the scenario you outlined would never occur. If, however, an American was accused of war crimes for launching a missile strike someplace, then yes, they should be protected.


Actually they shouldn't. If a truly heinous act was committed by either our government or member of the armed forces why shouldn't they face the consequences. As someone mentioned above we can try to handle it ourselves, but if we don't (and there is a good chance we won't) why shouldn't we be held to the same standard that we love to preach to the rest of the world.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13700
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 2:40 am

aviationaware wrote:
You are talking about things you obviously understand very little (if that) of. If the amount of money can't be changed, then the only thing that can affect its value is productivity gains or losses. This alone would make quick changes to the money's value absolutely impossible. So your hyper inflation horror story does not hold up. It just shows that you are way out of your league when discussing this topic..


prices = M × V/Y

You are taking out M, more precise you are leaving that to pure chance, Y is basically fixed for practical purposes, since it correlates quite nicely with the GDP, and that just changes slowly, and unless you want to open the door to drastic changes in positive and negative (!) Interest rates, there is not much you can do to make money circulate faster or slower. The only variable that can easily changes in a gold standard system is pricing.
Good standard is fine as long people pretty much have to spend all their money on consume to stay alive. You have to eat pretty much every day, you can postpone buying a new car, washing machine or house pretty long. That makes V highly dependent on mood. Mood based money value, great way to run a rail road.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13700
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Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 3:05 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Now, the 'American Service Member's Protection Act' as the 'Hague Invasion Act' is officially titled does, I grant you, potentially provide the US Government with the authority to invade The Hague in order to secure the release of US Citizens held by the ICC.


Nope. Since the netherlands are not part of the United States of america, it authorises shit. And since the Lisbon treaty, France is required to defend the Netherlands with its nukes. Nothing would happen if US service people go to trial.

I do support the act, because it completely removes any incentive that the ICC might have to detain a US Citizen.


Thanks to US there is no need to detain war criminals, targeted murder without trial or conviction is just fine these days.

And if you read between the lines of those countries committed to the Paris treaty, you can expect sanctions against nations that don't play nice enough at some point. EU, China, Japan, Korea can just decide to reduce your Co2 Output, if they agree to do it. Reducing the output of an economy i's a very effective way to reduce Co2 emissions. And in global terms the US economy is not that large anymore.
And Trump is working very hard to turn close US relationships into a liability instead of an asset

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11976
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 6:30 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Ken777 wrote:
The Act is a farce, brought to life by Radicalized Conservatives blindly following right wing nuts like Little Dick Cheney. Can you really see US Military Personnel invading The Hague to free a rapist, drug dealer or murder? You going to send in a Seal Team? Maybe a few Army Companies following a flock of cruise missiles?


Except that the ICC does not prosecute individuals accused of crimes like rape, drug dealing or murder. It prosecutes individuals accused of war crimes, or genocide. So the scenario you outlined would never occur. If, however, an American was accused of war crimes for launching a missile strike someplace, then yes, they should be protected.


Why? Why should they be protected if they commit war crimes? What makes America so special that they are above the international law?

KLDC10 wrote:
Ken777 wrote:
Trump is also the last guy complaining about others not "paying up". Here is a guy who consistently stiffed his contractors and tradesmen out of 30% of their bill. Last time was the DC Trump Hotel, where he stiffed electrical contractors who worked big overtime hours to met deadlines. One contractor took the stiff and the other filed suit.


What the Trump Organization has allegedly done has absolutely no bearing on government business. They're two completely separate things. In the same manner Rex Tillerson doesn't advocate for the same things as Secretary of State, as he did during his time at the helm of ExxonMobil.


Does your president and his entourage think that too ;-).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1528
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 6:45 am

I notice those who resent Trump bringing up a simple truth don't deny that it is the truth. Why is it so difficult to meet your obligations?

NATO is good for everyone. And if it fails think about the history of Europe.

How long until the next War?

I don't mean to bash Europe w this question.

It is simply the nature of geopolitics in Europe that those in central or Eastern Europe find themselves threatened enough, every 25-75( for the last 1000 years)years that war breaks out.

Before you all start posturing about how it's different now think back on qthe Balkans 25 years ago.

Remember how you all said, don't worry we got this?

A few years later the situation had deteriorated to genocide.

Maybe I'm the ugly American to point all this out but there is no denying what happened on Europe's watch in the Balkans just as there is no doubt that Trump is right about the free loading.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11976
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Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 7:06 am

Ken777 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Then the US car industry should make better cars, or do you suggest the Germans must buy an inferior product?


Germany has delivered good cars - but there have been some dogs. I owned '68 BMW 2002 and the cooling system was totally incompetent. Unable to handle an AC and I had to pull over in hot weather to let the engine cool. It was what I would expect from Yugo, certainly not Germany.


Kuddos for you, one of the coolest cars ever, why need an AC ;-)

Image

If you need an example of almost 50(!)years ago, they are doing something right.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11976
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Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 7:10 am

Planeflyer wrote:
I notice those who resent Trump bringing up a simple truth don't deny that it is the truth. Why is it so difficult to meet your obligations?

NATO is good for everyone. And if it fails think about the history of Europe.

How long until the next War?

I don't mean to bash Europe w this question.

It is simply the nature of geopolitics in Europe that those in central or Eastern Europe find themselves threatened enough, every 25-75( for the last 1000 years)years that war breaks out.

Before you all start posturing about how it's different now think back on qthe Balkans 25 years ago.

Remember how you all said, don't worry we got this?

A few years later the situation had deteriorated to genocide.

Maybe I'm the ugly American to point all this out but there is no denying what happened on Europe's watch in the Balkans just as there is no doubt that Trump is right about the free loading.


You are forgetting about the EU, not just NATO stabilize Europe, the EU does it far more effectively. I don't see war breaking out within the EU or between the EU and Russia. No point in doing that.

Yes, the EU should grow up more, so it can handle things like the Balkans.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 8:06 am

KLDc10 : ..." Weaseling out of an agreement is not right - which is why, even though I am thoroughly opposed to the Paris Climate Change Agreement, I do not advocate the USA backing out of it now. It's a bad deal, but it has been agreed upon."
so, weaseling out of a treaty that the US has ratified (the climate change one ) is ok ?...and btw, as usual with the S these days, everything is about posturing and hot air : you-ll need FOUR years to weasel your way out of the agreement.
Another one he apparently is "weaseling out" of is the NATO Article 5, which he did right under the broken twisted piece ofr metal that is a memorial to 9/11, the only time it was used ( by all NATO members).
We remember, Donald.
Contrail designer
 
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seahawk
Posts: 9744
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 8:13 am

It was a fantastic speech by trump at the NATO HQ, as he clearly showed the new focus of the USA, which is the interest of the US and only the US.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 8:33 am

seahawk wrote:
It was a fantastic speech by trump at the NATO HQ, as he clearly showed the new focus of the USA, which is the interest of the US and only the US.


You are just trolling now...........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
Posts: 9744
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Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 8:41 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It was a fantastic speech by trump at the NATO HQ, as he clearly showed the new focus of the USA, which is the interest of the US and only the US.


You are just trolling now...........


No, it was a wake-up call and one that was needed in Europe for at least 2 decades. Europe needs to get its act together and can not always bet on the US being powerful and reasonable. Trump is unique by the amazing incompetence in his administration, which sets him apart from G.W. Bush, who also seemed a bit strange from an EU view point, but had seasoned, experienced and reasonable advisers.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 9:29 am

Pihero wrote:
so, weaseling out of a treaty that the US has ratified (the climate change one ) is ok ?


Please cite the date of ratification by the Unites States Senate.

Thanks.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 10:05 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Pihero wrote:
so, weaseling out of a treaty that the US has ratified (the climate change one ) is ok ?


Please cite the date of ratification by the Unites States Senate.
Thanks.


Thanks for showing us how potus is weaseling out of international agreements :
The COP 21 agreement was signed by the United States on 22 April 2016, ratified by the President on 3 September 2016 and came into force, for the US, on 4 November 2016.
As it is NOT a treaty, it doesn't need Senate's ratification... but of course, nowadays, it's being requalified as a *treaty*, hence submitted to parliament's approval... we all know how rich american lawyers are...
Contrail designer
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6264
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Mon May 29, 2017 10:14 am

Pihero wrote:
L410, :

:confused: :confused: :confused:
You should try and drink less of slivovive or keep away from the becherovka....


It looks more like you're been drinking too much or has your brain went on strike so you could only come up with such a lame comeback?
Don't be angry at me just because I only pointed out to the well known fact that France has been traditionally in favor of protectionism... just as Trump is.

Pihero wrote:
will help your understanding of politics ( if it were true, would you be part of the EU, you who couldn't even manage to keep on an association of TWO countries ?)

What relevance does it have to the topic of the thread? Anyway, the federation served its historical purpose, Slovaks wanted to try it on their own, Czechs didn't care / didn't see any sense in keeping dysfunctional federation together. So we split. It was done in 6 months, everyone was quote happy with the 2:1 ratio according to which all assets were divided. The relations between the countries are better in the last 20 years than they've ever been when we were part of a federation (1960s). What's the big deal?
I love to be lectured on separatism by someone from France. France and their bloodshed with tens of thousands dead in Algeria. Gimme a break!
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