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BobPatterson
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I pointed out the dangers of cooperating with a regime like Putin. It is a slippery scale. There are a lot of countries far less worse then Russia we could deal with. Merkel is right, Europe needs to rise to the occasion, and not engaging in something we can't control. Working with Russia is fine, but on our terms, not on the terms of Putin.


How is that different from President Trump saying that other countries will have to work with the USA on terms favorable to the USA?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:49 pm

BobPatterson wrote:

How is that different from President Trump saying that other countries will have to work with the USA on terms favorable to the USA?


Dutchy is using that language in the context of EU relations with an openly hostile nation.

The U.S. has been using that language with friend (Canada, Germany) and foe alike.

IMHO, its probably a bad idea to treat Allies the same way as one would treat openly hostile nations, but this distinction is apparently not all that obvious.

I think it's clear that the transatlantic bond is being tested - another body blow (Paris) has just been announced.

Interesting times.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:53 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I pointed out the dangers of cooperating with a regime like Putin. It is a slippery scale. There are a lot of countries far less worse then Russia we could deal with. Merkel is right, Europe needs to rise to the occasion, and not engaging in something we can't control. Working with Russia is fine, but on our terms, not on the terms of Putin.


How is that different from President Trump saying that other countries will have to work with the USA on terms favorable to the USA?


Because those terms I am talking about are not favorable terms to the EU, those are subject to negotiation, I am talking about things that aren't subject to negotiation: obey international rule of law, diplomatic curtesy, no undue interference with the internal politics, no harassing neighbors.

Trump is an idiot, but the framework (institutions) within the US are a lot stronger so much more of a check and balance than in Russia, Putin is an autocrat, but not a fool, I'll give him that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:57 pm

The USA is simply tired of the NATO freeloading. EU countries cut short defense spending, redirecting it to schools and social programs. You think we wouldn't like to spend our defense cash on that too?!?! Instead we are left picking up your tab and ours.

2% frankly isn't even that much. Collectively it would yield a lot stronger alliance that this disproportionate "USA covers everything" mess.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:13 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
The USA is simply tired of the NATO freeloading. EU countries cut short defense spending, redirecting it to schools and social programs. You think we wouldn't like to spend our defense cash on that too?!?! Instead we are left picking up your tab and ours.

2% frankly isn't even that much. Collectively it would yield a lot stronger alliance that this disproportionate "USA covers everything" mess.


Factually wrong.

The increase in funding is due to Afghanistan and Iraq wars, not NATO commitments.

Defense spending is rising, as agreed upon in 2014.

Trump wants a 10% rise in defense spending, why? Not because of NATO.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The USA is simply tired of the NATO freeloading. EU countries cut short defense spending, redirecting it to schools and social programs. You think we wouldn't like to spend our defense cash on that too?!?! Instead we are left picking up your tab and ours.

2% frankly isn't even that much. Collectively it would yield a lot stronger alliance that this disproportionate "USA covers everything" mess.


Factually wrong.

The increase in funding is due to Afghanistan and Iraq wars, not NATO commitments.

Defense spending is rising, as agreed upon in 2014.

Trump wants a 10% rise in defense spending, why? Not because of NATO.


Your argument is a total whiff. Most NATO euro members are 50% short. A 10% increase would be a small step in the right direction.
Image
 
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:24 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The USA is simply tired of the NATO freeloading. EU countries cut short defense spending, redirecting it to schools and social programs. You think we wouldn't like to spend our defense cash on that too?!?! Instead we are left picking up your tab and ours.

2% frankly isn't even that much. Collectively it would yield a lot stronger alliance that this disproportionate "USA covers everything" mess.


Factually wrong.

The increase in funding is due to Afghanistan and Iraq wars, not NATO commitments.

Defense spending is rising, as agreed upon in 2014.

Trump wants a 10% rise in defense spending, why? Not because of NATO.


Your argument is a total whiff. Most NATO euro members are 50% short. A 10% increase would be a small step in the right direction.
Image


Thank you for underpinning my argument. Defense spending ricing with the commitment of US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and decrease defense spending when Obama came to power.

And I was talking about Trumps defense spending in America, not of other NATO countries.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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mercure1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:38 pm

The U.S is right to demand that Europeans cover a larger (and previously agreed fair) share for their own protection.

If I was an American voter, I would also look at NATO and most member nations with skepticism when they fail to uphold and fund their required burdens.

Frankly, I think its crazy the US for 6 decades has had to fund 70 percent of the alliance while Europe sits on our hands without much gratitude.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:12 pm

mercure1 wrote:
The U.S is right to demand that Europeans cover a larger (and previously agreed fair) share for their own protection.

If I was an American voter, I would also look at NATO and most member nations with skepticism when they fail to uphold and fund their required burdens.

Frankly, I think its crazy the US for 6 decades has had to fund 70 percent of the alliance while Europe sits on our hands without much gratitude.


Thank you for the voice of reason Mercure.

The USA does not expect Europe to match our spending. It won't happen. But we would like for an attempt at 2%.

To be honest it would make the alliance such a tiger in the world it would be unbelievable. Smaller conflicts could be heeded off without mass intervention by dozens of states (think Libya, Sudan, Piracy problem off east Africa). Larger countries like Russia and China would be faced with much more complex and adaptable adversaries. Plus European states would have more say in where the resources are spent.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:24 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
The U.S is right to demand that Europeans cover a larger (and previously agreed fair) share for their own protection.

If I was an American voter, I would also look at NATO and most member nations with skepticism when they fail to uphold and fund their required burdens.

Frankly, I think its crazy the US for 6 decades has had to fund 70 percent of the alliance while Europe sits on our hands without much gratitude.


Thank you for the voice of reason Mercure.

The USA does not expect Europe to match our spending. It won't happen. But we would like for an attempt at 2%.

To be honest it would make the alliance such a tiger in the world it would be unbelievable. Smaller conflicts could be heeded off without mass intervention by dozens of states (think Libya, Sudan, Piracy problem off east Africa). Larger countries like Russia and China would be faced with much more complex and adaptable adversaries. Plus European states would have more say in where the resources are spent.


Europe would like to see America honor its word in the Paris agreement, so we all would like something. Since presidents Trumps decision today, America has lost its right to complain.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:06 am

mercure1 wrote:
The U.S is right to demand that Europeans cover a larger (and previously agreed fair) share for their own protection..


Previously agreed to do that by 2024, as mentioned in this thread a million times. As a goal, not more no less.

mercure1 wrote:
If I was an American voter, I would also look at NATO and most member nations with skepticism when they fail to uphold and fund their required burdens.


And as a German tax payer I'd freak out if we spend any significant amount more than we do now.
Russias economy is going the way of the Dodo and out spending them 4:1, that is what the European NATO partners do, is more than ample. Russia does have to worry about China too after all, so effectively we are probably out spending them 10:1.

How dead do you want to kill them? 2014 is a long, long time ago, now, just 3 years later 1% of GDP would be enough.
I like tanks and shiny fighters too, but thank God we didn't put a toddler in charge of our government.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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mercure1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
Europe would like to see America honor its word in the Paris agreement, so we all would like something. Since presidents Trumps decision today, America has lost its right to complain.


Paris accords were not a treaty and never submitted to be ratified by the US Congress, while NATO is a treaty. Two very different things.. Europe should uphold its treaty commitments.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:19 am

tommy1808 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
The U.S is right to demand that Europeans cover a larger (and previously agreed fair) share for their own protection..


Previously agreed to do that by 2024, as mentioned in this thread a million times. As a goal, not more no less.

mercure1 wrote:
If I was an American voter, I would also look at NATO and most member nations with skepticism when they fail to uphold and fund their required burdens.


And as a German tax payer I'd freak out if we spend any significant amount more than we do now.
Russias economy is going the way of the Dodo and out spending them 4:1, that is what the European NATO partners do, is more than ample. Russia does have to worry about China too after all, so effectively we are probably out spending them 10:1.

How dead do you want to kill them? 2014 is a long, long time ago, now, just 3 years later 1% of GDP would be enough.
I like tanks and shiny fighters too, but thank God we didn't put a toddler in charge of our government.

Best regards
Thomas


Thomas,

Russia's economy has shrunk due to the drop in oil prices. It won't stay down for much longer. Your countries threats against Russia on the subject matter of Ukraine are gutless, because they know you have nothing to back it up. If it were not for NATO, invading western Europe would be easier than western Ukraine.

Was it your Defense minister that couldn't even get to Jordan back in 2012 because the German Military didn't have any unbroken aircraft?
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:20 am

double post
Last edited by Varsity1 on Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:20 am

Varsity1 wrote:
But we would like for an attempt at 2%.


Nah, we much rather spend the money on stuff like meals on wheels and broad availability of education. As we can see in the United States, lack of the latter is the by far biggest threat to a nation state.

To be honest it would make the alliance such . Smaller conflicts could be heeded off without mass intervention by dozens of states (think Libya, Sudan, Piracy problem off east Africa).


You mean like the awesome successes Iraq and Afghanistan have been?

Larger countries like Russia and China would be faced with much more complex and adaptable adversaries


Russia is a non issue, they have a tiny economy that isn't able to make any significant export product able to compete in globalised markets beyond the technology of sawed wood. Countries pick decades old F16 over modern Russian offerings if they can get it and afford it.
And if you want to do something about China, that is ever easier: stop buying stuff made in China

But President Trump pushes to euthanize tens of thousands of US citizens to give a trillion to the rich, which will, like in the past, invest it in China and Vietnam to put americans out of jobs.
In a very real sense he is cutting your health care to prop up the Chinese military.

Heck, Trump and his favourite Junta, like all Republicans he loves communist labor camps, are so close now, the Chinese even make people disappear that investigate how terrible the working conditions for his wife's workers are....

Plus European states would have more say in where the resources are spent.


You mean more than the 100% say we have in it now?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
The U.S is right to demand that Europeans cover a larger (and previously agreed fair) share for their own protection.

If I was an American voter, I would also look at NATO and most member nations with skepticism when they fail to uphold and fund their required burdens.

Frankly, I think its crazy the US for 6 decades has had to fund 70 percent of the alliance while Europe sits on our hands without much gratitude.


Thank you for the voice of reason Mercure.

The USA does not expect Europe to match our spending. It won't happen. But we would like for an attempt at 2%.

To be honest it would make the alliance such a tiger in the world it would be unbelievable. Smaller conflicts could be heeded off without mass intervention by dozens of states (think Libya, Sudan, Piracy problem off east Africa). Larger countries like Russia and China would be faced with much more complex and adaptable adversaries. Plus European states would have more say in where the resources are spent.


Europe would like to see America honor its word in the Paris agreement, so we all would like something. Since presidents Trumps decision today, America has lost its right to complain.



So we can go ahead and leave NATO and you guys will be fine right?
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
But we would like for an attempt at 2%.


Nah, we much rather spend the money on stuff like meals on wheels and broad availability of education. As we can see in the United States, lack of the latter is the by far biggest threat to a nation state.

To be honest it would make the alliance such . Smaller conflicts could be heeded off without mass intervention by dozens of states (think Libya, Sudan, Piracy problem off east Africa).


You mean like the awesome successes Iraq and Afghanistan have been?

Larger countries like Russia and China would be faced with much more complex and adaptable adversaries


Russia is a non issue, they have a tiny economy that isn't able to make any significant export product able to compete in globalised markets beyond the technology of sawed wood. Countries pick decades old F16 over modern Russian offerings if they can get it and afford it.
And if you want to do something about China, that is ever easier: stop buying stuff made in China

But President Trump pushes to euthanize tens of thousands of US citizens to give a trillion to the rich, which will, like in the past, invest it in China and Vietnam to put americans out of jobs.
In a very real sense he is cutting your health care to prop up the Chinese military.

Heck, Trump and his favourite Junta, like all Republicans he loves communist labor camps, are so close now, the Chinese even make people disappear that investigate how terrible the working conditions for his wife's workers are....

Plus European states would have more say in where the resources are spent.


You mean more than the 100% say we have in it now?

Best regards
Thomas


If Russia is so easy to handle, surely Germany can do it by themselves then. They've had so much success before. :lol:
 
tommy1808
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:27 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Russia's economy has shrunk due to the drop in oil prices. It won't stay down for much longer.


Oil prices won't come back up. Their economy is falling behind as we speak, they can't even make enough motor oil for their own domestic use.

Your countries threats against Russia on the subject matter of Ukraine are gutless, because they know you have nothing to back it up.


What threats? There never where threats...

If it were not for NATO, invading western Europe would be easier than western Ukraine.


Right. Look at the TOE of EU NATO members and Russia, in a symmetrical war they won't see week no. 2, they be taken apart like like Republican guard's in Kuwait.

Was it your Defense minister that couldn't even get to Jordan back in 2012 because the German Military didn't have any unbroken aircraft?


That is a risk you are having with a small fleet of Airliners. Remember when the F15 fleet was grounded, because one disassembled itself mid-flight......

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:30 am

Varsity1 wrote:
If Russia is so easy to handle, surely Germany can do it by themselves then.


You guys do like your strawman arguments, don't you?

They've had so much success before. :lol:


We didn't have competent leadership, just like the USA isn't having today.
But you should be happy, otherwise this Forum would be in German or Japanese.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:34 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Russia's economy has shrunk due to the drop in oil prices. It won't stay down for much longer.


Oil prices won't come back up. Their economy is falling behind as we speak, they can't even make enough motor oil for their own domestic use.

Your countries threats against Russia on the subject matter of Ukraine are gutless, because they know you have nothing to back it up.


What threats? There never where threats...

If it were not for NATO, invading western Europe would be easier than western Ukraine.


Right. Look at the TOE of EU NATO members and Russia, in a symmetrical war they won't see week no. 2, they be taken apart like like Republican guard's in Kuwait.

Was it your Defense minister that couldn't even get to Jordan back in 2012 because the German Military didn't have any unbroken aircraft?


That is a risk you are having with a small fleet of Airliners. Remember when the F15 fleet was grounded, because one disassembled itself mid-flight......

Best regards
Thomas


Russia is the second largest oil exporter in the world. The US Army dismantled the Republican Guard in Kuwait, EU countries can't even show up in theater with a free ride from the USAF.

What does the F15 have to do with any of this? Your straw arguments are terrible.
 
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Aesma
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:50 am

Personally I'm all for the end of NATO, but I'm betting nothing will happen at all. EU countries will spend a bit more because they feel the need to do it, mostly due to rising terrorism (so hiring men and beefing up intelligence, not buying warplanes or tanks), and Trump will not do anything, in fact for all his bluster he hasn't put forth a threat, he hasn't said "if you don't spend the US will do this or that", so him doing nothing will not be going back on a promise.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:31 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Russia is the second largest oil exporter in the world.


And oil is a high tech product to Americans apparently. They can't even make their own oil exploration equipment.

The US Army dismantled the Republican Guard in Kuwait, EU countries can't even show up in theater with a free ride from the USAF.


You don't have to make it that plain that you know jack about military operations. The vast vast vast majority of equipment arrived by ship.

What does the F15 have to do with any of this? Your straw arguments are terrible.


A hell lot more than A310 not meeting their civilian MEL.

Russia attacking western Europe is pure nonsense. They will just try to install a puppet government like they tried in the Netherlands and France and like they did in the US.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:19 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Russia is the second largest oil exporter in the world.


And oil is a high tech product to Americans apparently. They can't even make their own oil exploration equipment.

The US Army dismantled the Republican Guard in Kuwait, EU countries can't even show up in theater with a free ride from the USAF.


You don't have to make it that plain that you know jack about military operations. The vast vast vast majority of equipment arrived by ship.

What does the F15 have to do with any of this? Your straw arguments are terrible.


A hell lot more than A310 not meeting their civilian MEL.

Russia attacking western Europe is pure nonsense. They will just try to install a puppet government like they tried in the Netherlands and France and like they did in the US.

Best regards
Thomas


Terrible arguments Thomas, Stick with the German groupthink. It has served the DE well in the past.

With the end of NATO, Perhaps you can solicit some of your immigrants battlefield expertise.
 
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seahawk
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:09 am

Varsity1 wrote:
The USA is simply tired of the NATO freeloading. EU countries cut short defense spending, redirecting it to schools and social programs. You think we wouldn't like to spend our defense cash on that too?!?! Instead we are left picking up your tab and ours.

2% frankly isn't even that much. Collectively it would yield a lot stronger alliance that this disproportionate "USA covers everything" mess.


If we agree that the US spends around 3,5-4% and that the US doctrine calls for the ability to fight 2 majors conflicts at the same time - one in the Pacific and one in the Atlantic or SW Asia - we could argue that the US is actually spending less than 2% for NATO too.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:58 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Russia attacking western Europe is pure nonsense. They will just try to install a puppet government like they tried in the Netherlands and France and like they did in the US. (emphasis mine)


You are too intelligent to spout such drivel. Don't you care how idiotic you appear to be?

It is conceivable that Russia influenced an election in the USA (yet to be determined as fact). Russia installed no one, much less a government.

Please stop your nonsense.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:23 am

BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Russia attacking western Europe is pure nonsense. They will just try to install a puppet government like they tried in the Netherlands and France and like they did in the US. (emphasis mine)


You are too intelligent to spout such drivel. Don't you care how idiotic you appear to be?

It is conceivable that Russia influenced an election in the USA (yet to be determined as fact). Russia installed no one, much less a government.

Please stop your nonsense.


It is a fact that Russia influenced the elections, confirmed by your intelligence agencies, or don't you believe them, as mr. Trump doesn't? Russia doesn't need to physically install anyone, just needs to control it. Why hasn't Trump released his tax returns? Why have many people from Trump's inner circle have had illegal contacts with Russians? Why did Trump try to stop further probing in this issue? Just some random questions.
Mister Kushner is a person of interest in the investigations, so that is one of the top persons in the current administration.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Pihero
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:22 am

mercure1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Europe would like to see America honor its word in the Paris agreement, so we all would like something. Since presidents Trumps decision today, America has lost its right to complain.


Paris accords were not a treaty and never submitted to be ratified by the US Congress, while NATO is a treaty. Two very different things.. Europe should uphold its treaty commitments.


So show us where in the texts of this treaty there is mention of monies that the Europeans haven't paid.
( and BTW, documents coming from Le Pen's office are not acceptable )
You are really something !
Contrail designer
 
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Dutchy
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:54 am

Pihero wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Europe would like to see America honor its word in the Paris agreement, so we all would like something. Since presidents Trumps decision today, America has lost its right to complain.


Paris accords were not a treaty and never submitted to be ratified by the US Congress, while NATO is a treaty. Two very different things.. Europe should uphold its treaty commitments.


So show us where in the texts of this treaty there is mention of monies that the Europeans haven't paid.
( and BTW, documents coming from Le Pen's office are not acceptable )
You are really something !


Let's leave the word game behind, treaty or agreement. Don't step in that trap. We'll visit the agreed 2% in the agreed term of 2024. Since Trump insists on putting the world at risk by retracting the American commitment to the Paris agreement, all countries will have to come up with a lot of money to cover America's share, in real money. Can we subtract that from our defense commitments? Guess not, it will cost more than we will spend on defense. America is morally bankrupt with this decision so no more finger pointing is acceptable form that side.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Pihero wrote:
mercure1 wrote:

Paris accords were not a treaty and never submitted to be ratified by the US Congress, while NATO is a treaty. Two very different things.. Europe should uphold its treaty commitments.


So show us where in the texts of this treaty there is mention of monies that the Europeans haven't paid.
( and BTW, documents coming from Le Pen's office are not acceptable )
You are really something !


Let's leave the word game behind, treaty or agreement. Don't step in that trap. We'll visit the agreed 2% in the agreed term of 2024. Since Trump insists on putting the world at risk by retracting the American commitment to the Paris agreement, all countries will have to come up with a lot of money to cover America's share, in real money. Can we subtract that from our defense commitments? Guess not, it will cost more than we will spend on defense. America is morally bankrupt with this decision so no more finger pointing is acceptable form that side.


Get used to writing big fat checks and bankrolling deadbeats like EU Nato members with nothing in return. That's what it's like to lead the world, or in our case - just be a member of NATO.
 
Pihero
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:39 pm

How many times and in how many languages do you want it : Today, NATO is dead as it used to be.
trump may still have Britain and the Wisegrad countries as allies.
As far as the rest is concerned ( don't know about Canada ), they will slowly but surely be going their own way.
Thank you Donald, I've been expecting that for forty years.

As far as following the leaders of the free world, skepticism started after 9/11 and the whole WMD tragi-comedy... It ends to-day. so you may write checks directly to your billionaire masters.
Contrail designer
 
salttee
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:00 pm

Pihero wrote:
As far as following the leaders of the free world, skepticism started after 9/11 and the whole WMD tragi-comedy... It ends to-day. so you may write checks directly to your billionaire masters.

I'm old enough to remember when the US actually was "the leader of the free world" in every sense, including moral leadership.
That ended with the Vietnam war, which was of course another product of the American right wing.
Jingoism had already cost the United States its exulted position on the world stage before Bush's war.
Now those same attitudes are on the verge of condemning the US to second rate status.
 
Varsity1
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Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:08 pm

salttee wrote:
Pihero wrote:
As far as following the leaders of the free world, skepticism started after 9/11 and the whole WMD tragi-comedy... It ends to-day. so you may write checks directly to your billionaire masters.

I'm old enough to remember when the US actually was "the leader of the free world" in every sense, including moral leadership.
That ended with the Vietnam war, which was of course another product of the American right wing.
Jingoism had already cost the United States its exulted position on the world stage before Bush's war.
Now those same attitudes are on the verge of condemning the US to second rate status.


Feel free to goose step to China's drum. I'm sure they'll unilaterally look out for your best interests. :lol:
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5879
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:41 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
EU countries can't even show up in theater with a free ride from the USAF.


Actually, most of the big hardware, such as your tanks etc was shipped to Iraq on big freighterships. Alot of it was shipped by a Nowegian shipping Company.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
EU countries can't even show up in theater with a free ride from the USAF.


Actually, most of the big hardware, such as your tanks etc was shipped to Iraq on big freighterships. Alot of it was shipped by a Nowegian shipping Company.


http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/na ... on-in-mali

A small operation, where even the most capable EU military can't pull it off on their own.
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:49 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/na ... on-in-mali

A small operation, where even the most capable EU military can't pull it off on their own.


That's only a good thing, less of my tax money gets wasted on blowing up tents in some backward country the better. The American military has to be the greatest waste of money in human history, they literally haven't done a single useful thing for ordinary American people since the Korean war.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5879
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:57 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
The USA is simply tired of the NATO freeloading. EU countries cut short defense spending, redirecting it to schools and social programs. You think we wouldn't like to spend our defense cash on that too?!?! Instead we are left picking up your tab and ours.

2% frankly isn't even that much. Collectively it would yield a lot stronger alliance that this disproportionate "USA covers everything" mess.




Do you actually believe that US politicians would spend more money on healthcare etc for the good of all Americans if Europeans wrote the United States government a check ? Are you really that naiv ? Since when did US politicians care about the average American ? Today, about 60 % of the taxes that every American pay, goes to the millitary and defence inustry. They could cut it in half and spend some % of the taxes on healthcare and education etc for everyone and still play world police,. But choose not to.


Furthermore, it's not only Saudi Arabia, China and Russia that are big creditors and that the United States owe money to, but also many of the same NATO allies that the President just insulted. We are talking billions of USD that the US has receaved in loans.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5879
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:04 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
EU countries can't even show up in theater with a free ride from the USAF.


Actually, most of the big hardware, such as your tanks etc was shipped to Iraq on big freighterships. Alot of it was shipped by a Nowegian shipping Company.


http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/na ... on-in-mali

A small operation, where even the most capable EU military can't pull it off on their own.



You'll be happy to know that Norwegian special forces was the ones that had the most missions in Afghanistan the first years of operations, as US forces were not able to cope with the dehydration, the hight etc for longer periods of time ...

We are all good at some things and less good at other Things.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:05 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The USA is simply tired of the NATO freeloading. EU countries cut short defense spending, redirecting it to schools and social programs. You think we wouldn't like to spend our defense cash on that too?!?! Instead we are left picking up your tab and ours.

2% frankly isn't even that much. Collectively it would yield a lot stronger alliance that this disproportionate "USA covers everything" mess.




Do you actually believe that US politicians would spend more money on healthcare etc for the good of all Americans if Europeans wrote the United States government a check ? Are you really that naiv ? Since when did US politicians care about the average American ? Today, about 60 % of the taxes that every American pay, goes to the millitary and defence inustry. They could cut it in half and spend some % of the taxes on healthcare and education etc for everyone and still play world police,. But choose not to.


Furthermore, it's not only Saudi Arabia, China and Russia that are big creditors and that the United States owe money to, but also many of the same NATO allies that the President just insulted. We are talking billions of USD that the US has receaved in loans.


You're trying to argue over hypothetical situations in fantasy land, which is a total waste of time.

Creditors can't touch us. Are the Swiss going to send their army to collect? There is a saying in the banking industry:
"If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:11 pm

pvjin wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/na ... on-in-mali

A small operation, where even the most capable EU military can't pull it off on their own.


That's only a good thing, less of my tax money gets wasted on blowing up tents in some backward country the better. The American military has to be the greatest waste of money in human history, they literally haven't done a single useful thing for ordinary American people since the Korean war.


Yeah, we probably should have just let the USSR take the entire continent.
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:24 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Yeah, we probably should have just let the USSR take the entire continent.


Indeed you should have, those European nations which were under rule of USSR seem to be doing much better today. They have much less problems with refugees, terrorism and various kinds of degeneracy introduced by American mass entertainment. They are also having healthy economic growth and little debt
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:40 pm

pvjin wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Yeah, we probably should have just let the USSR take the entire continent.


Indeed you should have, those European nations which were under rule of USSR seem to be doing much better today. They have much less problems with refugees, terrorism and various kinds of degeneracy introduced by American mass entertainment. They are also having healthy economic growth and little debt

OMG you and Varsity1 are made for each other. There should be a special thread for the two of you, like spyhunter has.
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:49 pm

pvjin wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Yeah, we probably should have just let the USSR take the entire continent.


Indeed you should have, those European nations which were under rule of USSR seem to be doing much better today.


In what way?

various kinds of degeneracy introduced by American mass entertainment.


What does this even mean?
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:00 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
In what way?


Less stupid restrictions on people's lives, lower taxation, higher economic growth.

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
What does this even mean?


Stuff like this:

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.as ... el=5728497

I believe one reason why Finland is significantly less fucked up than Sweden is the fact we got more influences from the USSR than our Western neighbour did.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:05 pm

pvjin wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
In what way?


Less stupid restrictions on people's lives, lower taxation, higher economic growth.


Last time I checked, the nanny state was alive and well in most parts of the former Soviet Union.
pvjin wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
In what way?


Less stupid restrictions on people's lives, lower taxation, higher economic growth.

UltimoTiger777 wrote:


What does that even have to do with American mass entertainment?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13679
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:42 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Get used to writing big fat checks and bankrolling deadbeats like EU Nato members with nothing in return. That's what it's like to lead the world, or in our case - just be a member of NATO.


You do know that we are writing you the checks, and not the other way round, right?
Or is it just one of the many things you know nothing about?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13679
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:52 am

BobPatterson wrote:
It is conceivable that Russia influenced an election in the USA (yet to be determined as fact).


That is fact. There is no court this case can or will see, so that is as much a fact as it ever will be.

Russia installed no one, much less a government.

Please stop your nonsense.


Given Russia it's spy Base in Maryland back, weakening NATO, pulling out of the Paris agreement, giving them code word intelligence ....
The Russians probably didn't order him to kill hundreds of thousands of US citizens, he may just be doing that for the sake of his own bank account, but China is definitely happy about the hundreds of billion US$ Trump freed to be invested in China to screw US workers out of their Job, on top of handing them economic dominance in the Pacific and more money for their military in the process. They are so great full that they make people disappear if they want to inspect Ivanka's factories. ...

The only real question is: is he being blackmailed or just in it for the money?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
Europe would like to see America honor its word in the Paris agreement, so we all would like something. Since presidents Trumps decision today, America has lost its right to complain.


America did not give its word. That is done when our Senate ratifies a treaty. Only then do you have "America's word".

President Obama rather sneakily gave the impression that HE was giving America's word.

You were duped, or simply ignorant about American constitutional law.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:54 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Europe would like to see America honor its word in the Paris agreement, so we all would like something. Since presidents Trumps decision today, America has lost its right to complain.


America did not give its word. That is done when our Senate ratifies a treaty. Only then do you have "America's word".

President Obama rather sneakily gave the impression that HE was giving America's word.

You were duped, or simply ignorant about American constitutional law.


They come from feudal places where the king's word is all that matters. Give them a break.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13679
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: NATO and Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:00 am

Varsity1 wrote:
They come from feudal places where the king's word is all that matters. Give them a break.


Their King has no power, yours is hiding under the title President. Of course your king is only serving at pleasure of the Russian emperor, he put him on his throne after all.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: NATO and Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:44 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Their King has no power, yours is hiding under the title President. Of course your king is only serving at pleasure of the Russian emperor, he put him on his throne after all.


Delusional. Or worse.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
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