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Pyrex
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 4:37 pm

The good thing about Trump and Brexit is that, as can be seen from this thread, Germans and French lost all shame and no longer try to hide the fact that the EU has all along been about extending their hegemony over Europe. Heck, lapdog Juncker even wants to have English stop being an official language of the EU.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Olddog
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 5:01 pm

What shame are we supposed to have?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 5:43 pm

Pyrex wrote:
The good thing about Trump and Brexit is that, as can be seen from this thread, Germans and French lost all shame and no longer try to hide the fact that the EU has all along been about extending their hegemony over Europe. Heck, lapdog Juncker even wants to have English stop being an official language of the EU.

Trusting the Germans always worked out great for the French... oh wait...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 6:03 pm

seahawk wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
The good thing about Trump and Brexit is that, as can be seen from this thread, Germans and French lost all shame and no longer try to hide the fact that the EU has all along been about extending their hegemony over Europe. Heck, lapdog Juncker even wants to have English stop being an official language of the EU.

Trusting the Germans always worked out great for the French... oh wait...


And here we go again, trolling away.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 6:07 pm

Pyrex wrote:
the EU has all along been about extending their hegemony over Europe.

ummm, the EU is Europe.

Pyrex wrote:
Heck, lapdog Juncker even wants to have English stop being an official language of the EU.

Exactly how many English speaking countries are there in Europe? In the not too distant future I expect that you'll be complaining that the CSDP is plotting to replace NATO.

Maybe we should insult them some more and put a stop to all this!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 6:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
The good thing about Trump and Brexit is that, as can be seen from this thread, Germans and French lost all shame and no longer try to hide the fact that the EU has all along been about extending their hegemony over Europe. Heck, lapdog Juncker even wants to have English stop being an official language of the EU.

Trusting the Germans always worked out great for the French... oh wait...


And here we go again, trolling away.....


To be honest a EU dominated by France and Germany is not the answer to the current problems, it is simply the same construction as NATO, just with the centrepiece changed from the USA to those 2 countries. It is positive when the big powers do not hinder the development of an united Europe, but they must not force it on the smaller countries. If they can come up with ideas that are supported by majority of countries in Europe it is good, but they need to include as many countries as possible. A EU based on the shoulders of France and Germany would be dead in case the voters in those countries decide to make a stupid decision and that is not that unlikely when you look at LePen or the success of the AfD.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 6:48 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Trusting the Germans always worked out great for the French... oh wait...


And here we go again, trolling away.....


To be honest a EU dominated by France and Germany is not the answer to the current problems, it is simply the same construction as NATO, just with the centrepiece changed from the USA to those 2 countries. It is positive when the big powers do not hinder the development of an united Europe, but they must not force it on the smaller countries. If they can come up with ideas that are supported by majority of countries in Europe it is good, but they need to include as many countries as possible. A EU based on the shoulders of France and Germany would be dead in case the voters in those countries decide to make a stupid decision and that is not that unlikely when you look at LePen or the success of the AfD.


Indeed, they must include the other countries, but the biggest nay-sayer is gone now. So now we all have to decide on a new future and why not let France and Germany take the lead. We all have veto powers over many things, so they are forced to take everyone along, I have seen no evidence to the contrary, have you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
StarAC17
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 6:57 pm

Pyrex wrote:
The good thing about Trump and Brexit is that, as can be seen from this thread, Germans and French lost all shame and no longer try to hide the fact that the EU has all along been about extending their hegemony over Europe. Heck, lapdog Juncker even wants to have English stop being an official language of the EU.


I think they have finally had the stones to assert themselves is probably a good thing especially when the intentions of the US regarding Europe is not clear.

While I'm sure for the whole EU having Britain in would be preferable they didn't really want to play ball with the Union. They wanted the trade benefits but didn't want to adopt the Euro as a currency and did not participate in Schengen (although did allow freedom of movement). Brussels did compromise on a lot with the UK and they decided to leave anyways (although the UK is bitterly divided about this).

I see the EU wanting to rip the bandaid off quickly with regards to Britain invoking article 50 and just ensure that the transition is a as smooth as possible to move forward from here.

B777LRF wrote:
I understand Trump finds it 'bad, very bad' that German companies are selling cars in the US. More cars, it would seem, than US companies do in Europe. Apart from the not so insignificant fact, of course, that GM owns Opel, which sell rather a lot of cars in Germany. But, never mind that, something needs to be done to all those Audi's, BMW's, Merc's and Porsche's!

It couldn't possible have anything to do with the fact that the US3 cars are, by and large, utterly inferior in an international competition and that the German autoindustry, on the other hand, produce the finest cars this planet has on offer? I wonder if a ban would be enough, or if another wall is in need of being built?


Ford's are popular in Europe as well as far better than what is sold in the US.

As said the German Auto industry creates a lot of jobs in the US and their cars are of superior quality that people who buy them don't mind paying a premium for them. Very interesting coming from the "jobs" president.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
JJJ
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 7:05 pm

salttee wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
the EU has all along been about extending their hegemony over Europe.

ummm, the EU is Europe.

Pyrex wrote:
Heck, lapdog Juncker even wants to have English stop being an official language of the EU.

Exactly how many English speaking countries are there in Europe?


Ireland and Malta are both officially English-speaking countries and in the EU. Both Maltese and Irish are also official EU languages.

So nope, not gonna happen.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 9:42 pm

JJJ wrote:
salttee wrote:
Exactly how many English speaking countries are there in Europe?


Ireland and Malta are both officially English-speaking countries and in the EU. Both Maltese and Irish are also official EU languages.

So nope, not gonna happen.


Not to mention that English is the de facto lingua franca in Europe. Heck, even in Belgium, headquarters to the EU, half the country uses it to communicate with the other half.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Mon May 29, 2017 11:59 pm

JJJ wrote:
Ireland and Malta are both officially English-speaking countries and in the EU. Both Maltese and Irish are also official EU languages.

So nope, not gonna happen.


He is talking about EU comissions procedural languages, and those are English, French and German.
Still fairly impractical.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
JJJ
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 6:25 am

Pyrex wrote:
JJJ wrote:
salttee wrote:
Exactly how many English speaking countries are there in Europe?


Ireland and Malta are both officially English-speaking countries and in the EU. Both Maltese and Irish are also official EU languages.

So nope, not gonna happen.


Not to mention that English is the de facto lingua franca in Europe. Heck, even in Belgium, headquarters to the EU, half the country uses it to communicate with the other half.


And is the sole language of the ECB.

But anyway going back to Juncker words he didn't say anything about losing official status, only a vague "losing importance" which is pretty natural since the biggest, most powerful English speaking country is on the way out.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 11:17 am

I was so proud to see Macron standing up to Putin today, talking tough, not immediately folding to political adversaries like a certain North American leader does and letting them walk all over him. Its so nice to have a competent leader running the country :) . Germany has a very competent leader too with Merkel; who would have thought in 2005 that she would still be Chancellor 12 years later and would still command so much respect. For sure America's failure of a president has brought the best out of Europe. No longer do we live in a world where decisions are made by the US with everyone else in the Western World being forced to fall in line.

I'm also loving all the saltiness coming from certain quarters of this thread. It makes watching America getting pissed away all the more hilarious.
First to fly the 787-9
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 4:17 pm

So if Germany is not our ally, then who is at this point? Besides Saudi Arabia, which Trump railed against until he saw what beautiful gold trimmed palaces they had, with subservient women and a non existent press...
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 4:19 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
So if Germany is not our ally, then who is at this point? Besides Saudi Arabia, which Trump railed against until he saw what beautiful gold trimmed palaces they had, with subservient women and a non existent press...


Russia................. Turkey............

At the very least, two strongmen he admires.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 4:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
So if Germany is not our ally, then who is at this point? Besides Saudi Arabia, which Trump railed against until he saw what beautiful gold trimmed palaces they had, with subservient women and a non existent press...


Russia................. Turkey............

At the very least, two strongmen he admires.

And Philippines if we play our cards right
I don't take responsibility at all
 
WIederling
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 5:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
So if Germany is not our ally, then who is at this point? Besides Saudi Arabia, which Trump railed against until he saw what beautiful gold trimmed palaces they had, with subservient women and a non existent press...


Russia................. Turkey............

At the very least, two strongmen he admires.


More like Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey and some of the smaller nations led by unsavory henchmen.
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 5:44 pm

Oh yea, don't forget Israel.

But if Trump really brings the downfall of the US, the Israelis will just go back to alliance with their mothercountry: Russia. They are culturally much closer to Russia anyway.
 
Flighty
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 8:07 pm

Please, Germany is our ally.

But there is a difference between an ally and a dependent. We welcome Germany's partnership. To hector us on this matter is ridiculous, an absurd act of guilt.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 8:21 pm

What I find funny are the accusations about the trade deficit. It's like Trump is using the same arguments for China and Germany, when the two have not much in common.

China floods the US with cheap stuff on the one end, and expensive tech on the other end, the latter being in part made in China by US companies (has Trump ever said anything about Apple ?).

With Germany it's only high end stuff, expensive, that people buy on quality (or perceived quality), that's what trading is all about. If the US can't compete, it should first look at its own companies. They flood the world with stuff, with tech, with apps. If the numbers don't figure in the trade balance, it's because these US companies hide most of their money outside of the US, not because we don't buy US stuff.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
slider
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 8:28 pm

I must say I'm not surprised at the reaction by our European friends in this forum--as predictable as ever.

But let me ask you all something: when did it become some political blasphemy for a head of state to overtly say they're going to focus on their own national interests first? This should be the primary emphasis for any nation. What George Washington espoused in his Farewell Address remains as pertinent today as it was then. Trump is giving voice to that (although his delivery is horrid, bombastic and retrograde, and his substance isn't tracking fully to the rhetoric).

But to the OP's point, if you think Europe is on the right track following Merkel and Macron, you're in denial and have your head in the sand. The Islamic hordes have already invaded, the barbarians are PAST the gate and, unlike Vienna, there's no Charles Martel figure to come in and save the day. It's national suicide by demography and it's going to happen without a fight or without y'all firing a shot. Good luck. Enjoy denial and a slide into irrelevancy.

Trump has given voice to what many Americans feel--that while we value allies and those relationships with key partners around the world, we're no longer in a position to (nor should we) continue to be the policeman for the free West. NATO nations have in fact slid by for too long under the shadow of Pax Americana. It's high time we sit out conflicts, stop having entangling alliances (right now the United States has hundreds of treaties and agreements, dozens of which are in conflict with one another, that pledge military support and response to various partners around the globe---that's wholly unsustainable and untenable.

The EU and pan-European utopia is unrealistic and it has always been that way. The ancient rivalries, the petty jealousies and HUMAN NATURE ITSELF dictate this. That's not to say peace is impossible, not at all, but I will tell you that you cannot squelch a nation's pride, its citizens sense of self. Germany is still dealing with the scars from a war that some of us still remember or are one generation removed from.

So bully for Merkel and you who think she's the leader of the free world. She's not even successful in leading her own nation when you contemplate the immigrant invasion which will change the face of Deutschland. The Dutch are the only ones who seem remotely interested in putting up a fight, along with a solid quarter of French. The rest of Europe should start getting used to Sharia. Adios.
 
WIederling
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 9:01 pm

Aesma wrote:
With Germany it's only high end stuff, expensive, that people buy on quality (or perceived quality), that's what trading is all about.


Consumer products are the smallest part of German exports.

Majority of goods exported is production machinery and other industrial specialities.
Germany dominates that market via a wide range of smallish single source providers.

This helps Germany in having a more balanced trade relationship with forex China.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aesma
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 9:19 pm

Yes, in my mind that's included in quality stuff (not just perceived, though).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ken777
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Tue May 30, 2017 11:36 pm

slider wrote:
I must say I'm not surprised at the reaction by our European friends in this forum--as predictable as ever.


You're missing the point. Merkel is basically saying that they can no longer TRUST the US, which is very different from when we had real leaders in the past, from Truman thru Obama. Our only other non-politician we have had in the White House (Ike) knew leadership of large populations plus had integrity and a backbone.

Basically our only problem here is the ignorant tub of lard we (unfortunately) call President.

slider wrote:
But let me ask you all something: when did it become some political blasphemy for a head of state to overtly say they're going to focus on their own national interests first? This should be the primary emphasis for any nation. What George Washington espoused in his Farewell Address remains as pertinent today as it was then. Trump is giving voice to that (although his delivery is horrid, bombastic and retrograde, and his substance isn't tracking fully to the rhetoric).


This isn't the issue of focusing on your own national interests. It is an issue of Fat Boy Phucking up an international relationship that has served us well for 60 - 70 years. Trump simply doesn't know what he is doing.
slider wrote:

But to the OP's point, if you think Europe is on the right track following Merkel and Macron, you're in denial and have your head in the sand. The Islamic hordes have already invaded, the barbarians are PAST the gate and, unlike Vienna, there's no Charles Martel figure to come in and save the day. It's national suicide by demography and it's going to happen without a fight or without y'all firing a shot. Good luck. Enjoy denial and a slide into irrelevancy.


And if you believe that Trump is such a brilliant leader (regardless of his 6 bankruptcies) then "you're in denial and have your head in the sand."

slider wrote:
Trump has given voice to what many Americans feel--that while we value allies and those relationships with key partners around the world, we're no longer in a position to (nor should we) continue to be the policeman for the free West. NATO nations have in fact slid by for too long under the shadow of Pax Americana. It's high time we sit out conflicts, stop having entangling alliances (right now the United States has hundreds of treaties and agreements, dozens of which are in conflict with one another, that pledge military support and response to various partners around the globe---that's wholly unsustainable and untenable.


Actually Putin loves your approach. They have already been working hard in Europe (especially where the US doesn't even have an Ambassador) and they are working hard to push us out. The Trump-Putin ever so sweet relationship fits in with Russian's desires and Trump could care less about our future.

slider wrote:
The EU and pan-European utopia is unrealistic and it has always been that way. The ancient rivalries, the petty jealousies and HUMAN NATURE ITSELF dictate this. That's not to say peace is impossible, not at all, but I will tell you that you cannot squelch a nation's pride, its citizens sense of self. Germany is still dealing with the scars from a war that some of us still remember or are one generation removed from.


The EU standard of living is pretty good from what I have seen in the various countries that the wife and I have been to. The issue this week is the level of damage that Trump has done with his idiot comments at the NATO meeting. Countries from Germany to France to Italy learned that they cannot trust Trump in an Article 5 way. That Article has gone a long way in avoiding another major war in Europe and, as we saw in WW II, that is just as important
to the US as it is to the UK.

slider wrote:
So bully for Merkel and you who think she's the leader of the free world. She's not even successful in leading her own nation when you contemplate the immigrant invasion which will change the face of Deutschland. The Dutch are the only ones who seem remotely interested in putting up a fight, along with a solid quarter of French. The rest of Europe should start getting used to Sharia. Adios.


Do you really think that Fat Boy is a "leader"? Really? All he can do is stir up a bunch of white boys with a 3rd rate high school diploma.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 12:02 am

slider wrote:
The rest of Europe should start getting used to Sharia. Adios.


When you make posting like this, you should start of with "I have no clue what I am talking about" and safe everybody his time.
I think EU countries should cancel the NNPT and set up its own nuclear deterrent force. Nukes are cheap. Europe could defend itself, Trump his happy, labour force isn't stuck in non-productive jobs (=military).

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
yoni
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 12:39 am

Trump's unnecessary political posturing has set in motion something he has no control. Trump's statement would be quickly forgotten with small countries, but not with countries such as Germany. Germany (Japan also) has been a key part the US global dominance since WWII.

The whole thing will play in Russia's favor as Germany and the EU will be forced to improve drastically their relationships with Russia. Probably it was in Poutine's minds from the beginning. He has recently met Merkel and now the new French president ( still has not met his BFF Trump...).

It will be extremely hard for any future US president to reverse this course if the EU and Russia (with China too) are happy with this new order.
The EU is a very important market that any superpower needs to remain one or become one. The EU, Russia and China know it. Trump seems to be oblivious to this geopolitical fact.
 
salttee
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 12:49 am

slider wrote:
unlike Vienna, there's no Charles Martel figure to come in and save the day.

What are you talking about? For openers, the Battle of Tours happened in Gaul, not Vienna and current day historians know that Charles Martel didn't save Europe from a Muslim invasion, because there was no Muslim invasion in 732, he intercepted a Muslim army that had gotten lost while looking for a turncoat Muslim warlord and his band.

It looks to me like you are blending two species of hyperbole together to come up with hyperbole squared. There's not a shred of truth in any of it. It's just Freepervillian nonsense.
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 1:20 am

I must say I'm not surprised at the reaction by our European friends in this forum--as predictable as ever.

But let me ask you all something: when did it become some political blasphemy for a head of state to overtly say they're going to focus on their own national interests first? This should be the primary emphasis for any nation. What George Washington espoused in his Farewell Address remains as pertinent today as it was then. Trump is giving voice to that (although his delivery is horrid, bombastic and retrograde, and his substance isn't tracking fully to the rhetoric).

But to the OP's point, if you think Europe is on the right track following Merkel and Macron, you're in denial and have your head in the sand. The Islamic hordes have already invaded, the barbarians are PAST the gate and, unlike Vienna, there's no Charles Martel figure to come in and save the day. It's national suicide by demography and it's going to happen without a fight or without y'all firing a shot. Good luck. Enjoy denial and a slide into irrelevancy.

Trump has given voice to what many Americans feel--that while we value allies and those relationships with key partners around the world, we're no longer in a position to (nor should we) continue to be the policeman for the free West. NATO nations have in fact slid by for too long under the shadow of Pax Americana. It's high time we sit out conflicts, stop having entangling alliances (right now the United States has hundreds of treaties and agreements, dozens of which are in conflict with one another, that pledge military support and response to various partners around the globe---that's wholly unsustainable and untenable.

The EU and pan-European utopia is unrealistic and it has always been that way. The ancient rivalries, the petty jealousies and HUMAN NATURE ITSELF dictate this. That's not to say peace is impossible, not at all, but I will tell you that you cannot squelch a nation's pride, its citizens sense of self. Germany is still dealing with the scars from a war that some of us still remember or are one generation removed from.

So bully for Merkel and you who think she's the leader of the free world. She's not even successful in leading her own nation when you contemplate the immigrant invasion which will change the face of Deutschland. The Dutch are the only ones who seem remotely interested in putting up a fight, along with a solid quarter of French. The rest of Europe should start getting used to Sharia. Adios.


I just think its hilarious that the same 6 or 7 liberals post about 95% of the content in every a.net political thread these days and think that their opinion is the only one. In a twisted way it is because the a.net that was 10-15 years ago where politics was heated but debate was spread out between viewpoints is all but gone. Reminds me of a liberal US college campus where people dont bother because the angry mob just assaults and quashes down everyone else that does not agree with them. And sure, there is a significant portion of the population that thinks this way in Paris, Berlin or any large western european city that has turned into a security nightmare but in reality anyone who thinks this has strengthened the EU as a whole is a complete fool. Regardless of opinion Trump is far less of a danger to the future of Europe than the immigration policies single handedly brewed up by a select few in Western Europe with Germany at the head of it. Whether Trump decides to close down a base or in some hypothetical world not send a warship to the Med is statistically far and away less probable then a dozen more terrorist attacks in major European cities because of what their own politicians have done.

Just take for example this guy that just posted above me, he actually believes that people directly to the east, NE and SE of his country trust Angela Merkel, who is viewed as a treasonous individual for letting in what equates to an invading force with open arms and the rest of Germany which has pretty much been pillaging half of Europe for the last 1000 years should be trusted. With the French track record of helping countries that it had treaties with in the 20th century and Germanys history I'd rather trust a 7th grade chemistry student in a Tuscaloosa, AL high school to find the cure for cancer than anything coming from Berlin.

Pure comedy.

When you make posting like this, you should start of with "I have no clue what I am talking about" and safe everybody his time.
I think EU countries should cancel the NNPT and set up its own nuclear deterrent force. Nukes are cheap. Europe could defend itself, Trump his happy, labour force isn't stuck in non-productive jobs (=military).


You cant even fly a plane at midnight into your airports because your fellow citizens care more about some butterfly pollinating a forget-me-not and you think you will be successful in setting up a nuclear deterrent force? You should start your posts with "Forewarning - I live in a Disney movie!"

You're missing the point. Merkel is basically saying that they can no longer TRUST the US,


Whooptie-do dude, Angela has got Donald beat in the trust factor. She is another German leader in a long line since the 1960s, and one of the worst in recent memory, who has brought a security nightmare onto all of Europe. Some of it has been brewing for the last few decades and only now is being exposed. Wait till we talk about this in another 10-20 years and it will be far worse than it is now when the problem festers for even longer. You think that countries outside of the core PC nations of Germany, France and Scandinavia really have a bigger trust in the EU now than 10 years ago? Give me a break dude.

The good thing about Trump and Brexit is that, as can be seen from this thread, Germans and French lost all shame and no longer try to hide the fact that the EU has all along been about extending their hegemony over Europe. Heck, lapdog Juncker even wants to have English stop being an official language of the EU.


In the end this is why the EU doesn't work in the long term. This thread just proves that its a bunch of French and Germans with some Scandinavians and Benelux sprinkled in disagreeing with what are people that have roots in other countries. Watch how my reply just gets derided by the same 6 or 7 people from those countries, it's more predictable than that of a typical co-worker who goes to Subway every day and orders the same exact turkey on white with EZ lettuce.

What are you talking about?


Calm down, you're going to hit your head on the ceiling. He got the name wrong and the century with which it is associated with but not the event. Just because I may have got the name of the Capt of the Titanic wrong does not mean the Titanic didnt sink and the whole thing didnt happen. Since you're so wise you will know who to call on like last time in the 17th century to save western europe's rear end. However, unlike before where the invasion came by force this one was self-invited so the motivation to help will be far less.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

LOT767301ER wrote:
Regardless of opinion Trump is far less of a danger to the future of Europe than the immigration policies single handedly brewed up by a select few in Western Europe with Germany at the head of it.


Öhm..no. the eastern European countries brought the crisis about all bythemselves, espechialy Orbans refusal to stick to contractual and legal obligations, namely taking in those refugees and treating them according to the European Convention on Human Rights. Markel merely did what she legally had to do: letting refugees in accordance with the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, which is legally binding for Poland an Hungry as well, and treat them here in accordance with the European Convention on Human Rights and the Germany constitution.

She also defeated ISIS in the process, since their lack of manpower is their downfall. Your own brave country did exactly jack to fight ISIS without being "paid" for it by getting more NATO presence. That is how much your government cares about the threat: not at all.

Whether Trump decides to close down a base or in some hypothetical world not send a warship to the Med is statistically far and away less probable then a dozen more terrorist attacks in major European cities because of what their own politicians have done.


Right, and the US President showing no commitment whatsoever to NATO article 5 isn´t a few orders or magnitude more important than closing down a base or not sending a warship.

Just take for example this guy that just posted above me, he actually believes that people directly to the east, NE and SE of his country trust Angela Merkel, who is viewed as a treasonous individual for letting in what equates to an invading force with open arms and the rest of Germany which has pretty much been pillaging half of Europe for the last 1000 years should be trusted. With the French track record of helping countries that it had treaties with in the 20th century and Germanys history I'd rather trust a 7th grade chemistry student in a Tuscaloosa, AL high school to find the cure for cancer than anything coming from Berlin.

Pure comedy.


I was just thinking the same: pure comedy. European NATO Partners are by definition more reliable than the USA (and Canada for that matter), simply because we do share the continent and you can drive a tank from Warsaw to Berlin, but you will have a hard time driving it to DC. Remember how Germany was and is the driving force behind the sanctions against Russia due to Ukraine, despite large economical interest in Russia?

When you make posting like this, you should start of with "I have no clue what I am talking about" and safe everybody his time.
I think EU countries should cancel the NNPT and set up its own nuclear deterrent force. Nukes are cheap. Europe could defend itself, Trump his happy, labour force isn't stuck in non-productive jobs (=military).


You cant even fly a plane at midnight into your airports


We have plenty of Airports that are open 24/7 thank you very much.

because your fellow citizens care more about some butterfly pollinating a forget-me-not and you think you will be successful in setting up a nuclear deterrent force? You should start your posts with "Forewarning - I live in a Disney movie!"


You don´t have to be that open about your lack of knowledge. Every single night flying restriction in Germany is due to noise, a quiet night is actually a right here btw, none is due to enviromental concerns. Speaking about those, there are already areas on this planet where pollination has to be done by human labor, unless being a flower polinator is your career goal, or you want to end up spending shitload of money on human pollinated food, you better take protecting pollinating insects a bit more serious.

Whooptie-do dude, Angela has got Donald beat in the trust factor. She is another German leader in a long line since the 1960s, and one of the worst in recent memory


Oh, that is why she gets reelected all the time. Because she is so bad.... right...

who has brought a security nightmare onto all of Europe.


intentional humicide rates show that you again know nothing.

Watch how my reply just gets derided by the same 6 or 7 people from those countries, it's more predictable than that of a typical co-worker who goes to Subway every day and orders the same exact turkey on white with EZ lettuce.


giving the amount of pure nonsense with no basis in fact that you are posting, that ain´t a surprise...


However, unlike before where the invasion came by force this one was self-invited so the motivation to help will be far less.


"invasion", you are becoming more hilarious by the minute. The first Iraqi refugees started going back home about 1.5 years ago, the first Syrian refugees over a year ago......

But the data suggest that the refugees tend to be better-behaved than the typical German. Even if you presume that refugee-related crime is underreported for political reasons, we could find no evidence in German media reports that the country warrants Trump's riddled-with-crime characterization.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... me-thanks/

OMG.. an Invasion...

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 3:27 am

It is an interesting study in human behavior to see how both sides of an issue here devolve into inanities.

To see that many people fail to understand that Europe has been and is now being invaded from the south boggles the mind. Europe is now experiencing what the USA has been going through.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 3:36 am

Remember how it was Obama who was reducing America's standing in the world? I'll bet you never heard statements like these from our allies during his 8 years. But yeah...the so called Apology Tour (that never happened), the bowing down, not taking s#!t from Israel, and actually engaging with foes (like Iran and Cuba) through diplomacy instead of war are all signs of a weak America.

The Russian Reset was a "disaster" because it allowed Russia to flex her muscles, but the current administration wants a reset of their own (wouldn't it be great if we got along with Russia?)
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 4:26 am

Predictable like a Turkey on white with EZ lettuce. You really cant help yourself and its great. You remind me of the other guy on here Hillis who started a similar thread every 30mins to the point one would wonder if it was some psychological disorder regardless of one's political slants.

Sorry it took me a bit to reply, I just got done reading the front page of the BBC about how German cops foiled a suicide attack today by a 17 year old invader from Syria. Do you find that hilarious? I find it sort of sad, like you taking my butterfly comment literally. Didn't know I had to throw in specifics for you to realize I was alluding to the stupid decisions to shut down MUC's planned third runway or the hilarity that is FRA's curfew.

I will bet you 20 bucks that there will be a half dozen terrorist attacks on German soil before any of the stuff you're blabbering about comes true. Truly I don't want to win and I'd rather give away the Andrew Jackson but statistically speaking this is as sure of a bet as there is.

Right, and the US President showing no commitment whatsoever to NATO article 5 isn´t a few orders or magnitude more important than closing down a base or not sending a warship.


I dont give a crap about one's words, I care about what someone does. There is far more precedence in the US saying its going to stay out of it and bailing someone in Europe out than the French saying that they will help and yet they sit around and watch whole swathes of Europe fall.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 4:59 am

LOT767301ER wrote:
I dont give a crap about one's words, I care about what someone does. There is far more precedence in the US saying its going to stay out of it and bailing someone in Europe out than the French saying that they will help and yet they sit around and watch whole swathes of Europe fall.


Yet, the only time Article 5 was activated all NATO partners followed the US into a mission outside the territory of NATO - aka Afghanistan.
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 5:03 am

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... me-thanks/

OMG.. an Invasion...


How many other articles you got over there from the stone age, I mean 2011, Tommy Tutone?

Let me refresh you with some stats from the German Federal Police. Make sure you refute them and not me when you write back your apologist post:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/germany-sees-rise-in-crime-committed-by-migrants-statistics-show-2017-04-25

Yet, the only time Article 5 was activated all NATO partners followed the US into a mission outside the territory of NATO - aka Afghanistan.


That is the point, going out on expeditionary strikes that are almost always organized, led and paid by and large by the US would be far different than trying to protect a peripheral NATO member from a direct Russian invasion. The fact it took NATO ex-US/UK/Canada a full 2 years after Article 5 to mobilize a little more than symbolic group into Afghanistan tells you everything you need to know.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 5:31 am

True, NATO has become a liability to the US.
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 6:03 am

I dont really want to make sweeping generalizations like that as there are many ways to gauge NATOs importance to the US. What Trump seems to not understand, at least judging by his words is that some dollars need to be spent on allies because they have strategic value. However, where he is right perhaps by chance or not is the fact that a large swathe of NATO members are not spending enough on the military. Whether, or rather how much, the US taxpayer has to pay for those shortfalls is a completely different discussion. What we do know is that the US has to constantly prop up NATOs strategic capabilities either with its own forces or via de-facto donations. Whenever we see the US disengaging from a conflict, take for example the recent bombing runs to Libya there are immediate cries for help because no one else can provide something as simple as air-refueling even as a group on a needed scale. So for the life of me I cant figure out how some people blame Trump for this when just 3 short years ago Germany's own defense minister admitted that equipment is in such disrepair that the country is unable to meet some NATO obligations. You can read about all this in sources like Reuters and NPR which are hardly right-wing outlets. Lets put that into perspective - Trump 3 years ago was firing people on a TV Show not preparing European fiscal budgets. I want to give credit to Obama because I honestly believe that he was ticked off at this irresponsible crap that the Europeans pull off year after year although he never showed it and doubtful he would ever admit it in public.

We shouldn't really single out Germany here either, this is a pretty widespread problem in Europe which has been around before Trump and Obama and I can only guess due to the huge sucking sound that is the European welfare state being drained thanks in large part due to the Merkel and currently the Italian free ferry service that provides lift to hundreds of thousands of invaders a stones throw off the Libyan coast that it will only get worse.

Indeed I would give a pass on this subject to poorer countries or ones which are physically small, although some of them valiantly spend more on defense but this sort of year after year unpreparedness is unacceptable in an alliance that is supposed to have some sort of shared responsibility.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 6:11 am

Imho it is totally correct to single out Germany, as they are unwilling to shoulder their responsibility but are happy exploiting the trade advantage they enjoy.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 6:37 am

[quote="Dutchy"][quote]Europe can no longer "completely depend" on the US and UK following the election of President Trump and Brexit, German Chancellor Angela Merkel says.


Yeah, well American's can't depend on Trump either.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 6:51 am

Imho the big problem is that Trump things he can order other countries around. The whole defence spending thing was a non topic, as the partners already agreed to spent more and reach 2% GDP by 2024 the latest. Germany just announced to bring back 200 MBTs and a whole heavy division in a bid to improve the security of the Eastern border of NATO.

So instead of supporting the positive steps taken, Trump decides to question the stability and future of NATO. Bullying other states around is rarely working and rarely does it help to have stable relationship. It would be funny to see Germany spending 3% GDP on defence by 2024, but only because NATO is gone and a new EU only organisation has taken over.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 7:10 am

seahawk wrote:
Imho the big problem is that Trump things he can order other countries around. The whole defence spending thing was a non topic, as the partners already agreed to spent more and reach 2% GDP by 2024 the latest. Germany just announced to bring back 200 MBTs and a whole heavy division in a bid to improve the security of the Eastern border of NATO.

So instead of supporting the positive steps taken, Trump decides to question the stability and future of NATO. Bullying other states around is rarely working and rarely does it help to have stable relationship. It would be funny to see Germany spending 3% GDP on defence by 2024, but only because NATO is gone and a new EU only organisation has taken over.


He is learning to be president and it is endlessly entertaining to watch, he isn't CEO of a company in which he can boss people around as he pleases, he is president, other countries have a choice, Congress has a choice and ultimately the American people will have a choice in 2 years to vote not for the Republican party in the midterm and in 4 years to vote for someone else as their president. Can't believe someone would still defend him at this point.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 7:17 am

<quote> You cant even fly a plane at midnight into your airports because your fellow citizens care more about some butterfly pollinating a forget-me-not and you think you will be successful in setting up a nuclear deterrent force? You should start your posts with "Forewarning - I live in a Disney movie!" </quote>

Make up your mind. either we live in Disneyland sucking on lotus or Germany has a massive positive trade balance.

Thing with the US is they don't manage anything without foreign "help" ( either war spoils, inducted workforce or spied off IP ).
As a society the system is a third world scavenger culture mixed in with Manchester capitalism...
Fed by fresh still productive foreign educated immigrants and a full size previously "unused" continent that can be robbed of resources.
Murphy is an optimist
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 7:18 am

seahawk wrote:
Imho it is totally correct to single out Germany, as they are unwilling to shoulder their responsibility but are happy exploiting the trade advantage they enjoy.


nobody in their right mind should single out Germany after taking a look at the list.

.

members are suppose to spend 2 percent of their GDP on defense. Germany spend about 1.2% while Greece spends 2.39
America spends 3.61% Trump can drop the spending down to 2% but then he wouldn't be able to lecture other countries.
look at Canada they spends .99%

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/ ... ending.jpg
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 8:03 am

slider wrote:
It's national suicide by demography and it's going to happen without a fight or without y'all firing a shot. Good luck. Enjoy denial and a slide into irrelevancy.

That's not the topic but I agree, this is a risk. I could try to prove it mathematically but I don't have the time to do so.I am quit sure the influence of demography is larger than the terrorist attacks we had in Europe...

But it is not exclusively a risk for "the old Europe". I think I read the same applies to the East coast of the USA, correct me if I am wrong.

BobPatterson wrote:
To see that many people fail to understand that Europe has been and is now being invaded from the south boggles the mind. Europe is now experiencing what the USA has been going through.

Interesting comparison that I didn't think of before. One difference is though that your immigrants from the south and the majority of the USA share the same religion...
 
JJJ
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 6:00 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
I dont really want to make sweeping generalizations like that as there are many ways to gauge NATOs importance to the US. What Trump seems to not understand, at least judging by his words is that some dollars need to be spent on allies because they have strategic value. However, where he is right perhaps by chance or not is the fact that a large swathe of NATO members are not spending enough on the military. Whether, or rather how much, the US taxpayer has to pay for those shortfalls is a completely different discussion. What we do know is that the US has to constantly prop up NATOs strategic capabilities either with its own forces or via de-facto donations.


Actually that is the relevant discussion. How much of that 3,something% of the US GDP spent on military spending is America's contribution to a better and more free world and how much is the result of a bloated economic/military complex with an ever growing top brass getting banana republic dictator perks and the revolving door between the military and the Lockheed-Martins of the world.

All over the world militaries are getting leaner and better at specific jobs. Maybe it's time the US learns to take on those challenges like everyone else instead of relying on all those 3star+ generals basically working as full-time lobbyists to keep the money pipeline open.

And I won't get into the partisan discussions on reserve vs National Guard, why doesn't the Navy swallow the Coast Guard or the endless squabbling between army, marines and air force for missions and resources.
 
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 6:29 pm

Europe is a sinking ship and leaders like Merkel are pulling at straws to remain relevant on the world stage.

Donald Rumsfeld had it right in 2003 with his remark regarding "old Europe".

The world has moved on, and Europes place is becoming ever diminished politically, economically and morally.

Its almost an echo chamber here already with the Eurocrats talking to themselves in circles.
mercure f-wtcc
 
salttee
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 7:06 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Europe is a sinking ship and leaders like Merkel are pulling at straws to remain relevant on the world stage.

LOL Europe is where it's always been, at center stage. It's currently the US that's the diminishing entity. Asia is rising, Europe expands as the old comintern countries gain their footing, while the US declines in significance; that's the reality.

mercure1 wrote:
Donald Rumsfeld had it right in 2003 with his remark regarding "old Europe".

Yea, Rumsfeld was doing great work in 2003 eh?
He was creating the human, political and military disaster that currently exists in Mesopotamia and now the Europeans are stuck with the cleanup of his mess.

mercure1 wrote:
The world has moved on, and Europes place is becoming ever diminished politically, economically and morally.

You say that out of one side of your mouth while you complain that the Germans are dominating the market out the other side of your mouth.

mercure1 wrote:
Its almost an echo chamber here already with the Eurocrats talking to themselves in circles.

You got that wrong too.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 7:12 pm

I wonder if the G7 will decide to turn into the G6. It's clear that if the US is gonna stand against its allies with any issue, then the views of the US and the rest of the group are divergent. If military is the only thing they agree on, that's what NATO and partnerships are for.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Pihero
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Wed May 31, 2017 7:20 pm

Wow !
This is a new monster :A poetic troll !
Never thought I'd see one !
But like all poets, it lacks knowledge and logical reasoniing, in terms of politics, economics, social and financial matters...
... almost of everything, really.
Contrail designer
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:52 am

Europe expands as the old comintern countries gain their footing, while the US declines in significance; that's the reality.


What are you blabbering about? There is not an economic nor military statistic that proves your theory.

Actually that is the relevant discussion. How much of that 3,something% of the US GDP spent on military spending is America's contribution to a better and more free world and how much is the result of a bloated economic/military complex with an ever growing top brass getting banana republic dictator perks and the revolving door between the military and the Lockheed-Martins of the world.

All over the world militaries are getting leaner and better at specific jobs. Maybe it's time the US learns to take on those challenges like everyone else instead of relying on all those 3star+ generals basically working as full-time lobbyists to keep the money pipeline open.

And I won't get into the partisan discussions on reserve vs National Guard, why doesn't the Navy swallow the Coast Guard or the endless squabbling between army, marines and air force for missions and resources.


Are you suggesting the US military isnt the most specialized force on this planet? The US military probably invents and tests more new cutting edge weapons systems than the rest of the world combined. Can't think of an area where the US is not at the forefront of specialization. Drones? Lasers? Propulsion? Stealth? SpecOps? Electronic warfare? I honestly have no idea what youre talking about when it comes to this topic.

I do however agree with you 100% that there is quite a significant portion of the budget that goes into projects that should be cut and do nothing but prop up primary general contractors. I despise the wasted money spent on the JSF for example.

Lastly, the USCG is part of the Navy...not sure what you want here, for them to repaint their ships so visually they are the same? I hardly imagine that's much cost savings.

Thing with the US is they don't manage anything without foreign "help" ( either war spoils, inducted workforce or spied off IP ).
As a society the system is a third world scavenger culture mixed in with Manchester capitalism...
Fed by fresh still productive foreign educated immigrants and a full size previously "unused" continent that can be robbed of resources.


Sounds better to me than a country that has for 1000 years killed tens of millions to the left and right, loves to get in bed with the Russians throughout its history, then for the last 15 years played everyone for idiots by playing essentially the role of a payday cash advance business lending money at the equivalent of a 150% APR to poorer nations while buying up local land, industries and using cheap labor all the way from Istanbul to Tallinn to suck everyone dry. The finale of course being an invitation to bring in millions of invaders without asking anyone in their neighborhood which agreed to keep its doors open if thats ok. Dont go throwing stones in glass houses buddy.

I see you blaming fresh productive immigrants for coming here which includes myself. Well crap dude, I probably wouldn't have been here along with millions of others if it wasn't for the fact your country wasn't busy pillaging mine and others consistently for the last 300 years. I feel pretty good about the fact that I get to live in a country that has given me opportunities as long as I work hard to a level that yours could probably never provide.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Merkel: Europe 'can no longer rely on allies' after Trump and Brexit

Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:03 am

What is Europe going to do about America's Trojan Ass in the continent? Will the Brits go willingly as they have saying, or will they try to stick on to Mama Euro's teats for some more time?
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