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mercure1
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:41 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Well, that's the key point. Do you stick to the agreement - even though you don't like it and you are not the one who signed it - or do you consider it as binding?


The point is the Paris agreement is not binding on the US to begin with.

Obama never made it binding, because he knew the elected people of America would never approve it in their Congress.

Folly here is more with Obama being so anxious to agree on agreeing on something that he could never get approved at home, than Trump.
Its basically a repeat of Kyoto 1997, which Bush quickly stepped back from in 2001 once assuming office.

I think if we want American participation the world needs to craft a "treaty" which can be ratified, not a feel good meaningless paper which Paris was.
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usxguy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:44 pm

Do some of you even KNOW whats in the Paris Accord - or are you against what Trump did because of political affiliations?

The US got the short end of the stick. The US didnt get waivers like India & China...
xx
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:00 pm

speedbored wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
still it is China and India who need to fix themselves.

Really? Per capita, the USA emits more than twice as much CO2 as China and more than ten times as much as India. It is the USA that needs the most fixing.


I am not questioning your ability to present well suited self-serving key metric. So, Qatar is the worst polluter.

What harm Trump could do to the environment?

Can Trump reactivate coal mines? No.
Can Trump create coal jobs? No. It is easy to find a Solar Panel Installer job.
Can Trump build more coal power generation plants? No. It is with private sector and they are investing heavily in RE.
Can US produce cheap solar panel? No. We have to import from China

What leadership we lost by not spending $100B to help other countries. US could spend same $100B within the country to offer more incentives for renewable energy.
All posts are just opinions.
 
JJJ
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:31 pm

usxguy wrote:
The US got the short end of the stick. The US didnt get waivers like India & China...


All advanced countries got the same treatment.

Apparently the US now wants to pretend it's a developing country.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:45 pm

Mir wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I see. So in your estimation, someone not wanting to be part of a deal that requires vastly disparate levels of participation that benefit others at their expense is somehow lying, stupid, or removed from reality?


When the deal doesn't actually require anything and is strictly voluntary, then those words are actually quite appropriate.

“It seems very unnecessary to have to withdraw from the Paris agreement if the concern is focused on the U.S. emissions target and financial contributions,” said Susan Biniaz, who served at the State Department as the United States’ lead climate change lawyer from 1989 until earlier this year. “The U.S. can unilaterally change its emissions target under the agreement — it doesn’t have to ‘renegotiate’ it — and financial contributions are voluntary.”

“If the president believes the Paris agreement is a bad deal for the U.S. because our voluntary emission commitments are more stringent than those of other large emitters, the U.S. can reduce the ambition of our domestic policies while still remaining part of the agreement, rather than giving up our seat at the table and undermining U.S. leadership and credibility,” added Jason Bordoff, who heads the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ene ... d6d63331ea



So if the deal is truly voluntary and the U.S. could unilaterally change emissions targets or contributions, why all the fuss over leaving? Would you have preferred they say they're staying in, but are granting themselves a hundred year waiver on targets until 2117?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:

The U.S. is also responsible for 25% of the world's GDP. We are disproportionately cleaner and more productive than the rest of the world. We aren't the problem.



Good. There is no scientific evidence for this claim. So get your sticky fingers off my money.


no you get your sticky fingers off my planet.


Whom are you quoting here? If it is DfwRevolution, I would say, "no you get your sticky fingers off OUR planet" The planet belongs to all of us.


yes the planet belongs to all of us and i was replying to DfwRevolution.

sadly, i think Trump bases his decisions on what will be the most controversial.

my understanding is while he says he wants to get of the agreement, he can't. He's been told that in private.

The law is the law, once you sign an agreement you need to follow through.
unless your word means nothing.

He held a fake news briefing since he has to follow through on this for several years. He has no choice. He worded the fake briefing to say he wants to renegotiate. Ok, bud but you can't do that for several years.

IMO he's creating reasons for the world to hate America, and at the end of the day, it's empty talk like his wall and travel ban.
Last edited by DLFREEBIRD on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:47 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
The law is the law, once you sign an agreement you need to follow through.


A ten year old can sign an agreement, but that doesn't make it legally binding. The same can be said of what President Obama signed; unless you can show me otherwise, from my understanding it's not something the U.S. is legally bound to.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:02 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
yes the planet belongs to all of us and i was replying to DfwRevolution.


The planet - and the people on it - will be fine without the Paris Agreement. Probably better.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
The law is the law, once you sign an agreement you need to follow through.


It's not a law.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
IMO he's creating reasons for the world to hate America


Haters gonna hate.
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Tugger
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:03 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
So if the deal is truly voluntary and the U.S. could unilaterally change emissions targets or contributions, why all the fuss over leaving? Would you have preferred they say they're staying in, but are granting themselves a hundred year waiver on targets until 2117?

Basically yes.

An intelligent president would have done something along those lines. "We are committed to the agreement and will work to address the elements that are negatively impacting the USA and the world...." or some such. But Trump is not intelligent enough to understand the cooperative nature of the world and world politics. He thinks the USA can do anything and the world must follow. He does not understand how to actually lead cooperatively, he only knows how to bully lead.
He is a bad president and a bad reflection on the USA. Many Republicans do not like him as he says things without thought or without understanding the implications. He is used to being a billionaire and doing want he wants and the worst ts costs in money which he can make more of. But his money does impress the world.

To me many of his statements have been almost moronic with the goal only being to "please his base" (his imaginary base). What he does within the USA., to the USA is one thing. His presence on the world stage has done almost nothing but harm the USA globally. He will find the world will go on without him and the USA will lose its place of leadership and that is a very bad thing for the USA to lose.

If you are part of his "base" and believe he is doing good things, tell me your thoughts on his statements on healthcare, that he will replace "Obamacare" with something that has better coverage and lower costs for more American's... Please tell me how that helps the Republican's or is even possible?

He is a fool for a president and is damaging the USA.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:10 pm

Well done Trump, This move was a clear statement: America first, fuck the rest.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:10 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
yes the planet belongs to all of us and i was replying to DfwRevolution.


The planet - and the people on it - will be fine without the Paris Agreement. Probably better.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
The law is the law, once you sign an agreement you need to follow through.


It's not a law.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
IMO he's creating reasons for the world to hate America


Haters gonna hate.

Wow, enlightened.

So you fully agree that the world does better without cooperative efforts and goals?

I see you believe "probably" is an excellent quantitative analysis but in general I find it lacking. And by the way, the world is not "without the agreement" the USA has simply decided it wants to have the rest of the world work together without it and penalize the USA as it sees fit. That is stupid. (in my opinion, you may think it is the most intelligent thing wee can do).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:12 pm

seahawk wrote:
Well done Trump, This move was a clear statement: America first, fuck the rest.

Actually he has been saying "Trump first, fuck the rest", he does not represent the USA well though sadly he is the one that has been elected to that position.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:15 pm

Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
So if the deal is truly voluntary and the U.S. could unilaterally change emissions targets or contributions, why all the fuss over leaving? Would you have preferred they say they're staying in, but are granting themselves a hundred year waiver on targets until 2117?

Basically yes.

An intelligent president would have done something along those lines. "We are committed to the agreement and will work to address the elements that are negatively impacting the USA and the world...." or some such.


In other words, you would prefer a bullshitter.

The fact this administration does occasionally speak in blunt, plain, unambiguous terms should go in the Good Trump column. The Paris Agreement was a farce. The public doesn't want it. So let's get out, plain and simple.

Tugger wrote:
But Trump is not intelligent enough to understand the cooperative nature of the world and world politics. He thinks the USA can do anything and the world must follow. He does not understand how to actually lead cooperatively, he only knows how to bully lead.


Other nations will cooperate with the U.S. when it suits their interests. They won't when it doesn't. That was true before the Paris Agreement. That will be true after the Paris Agreement.
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ElPistolero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:19 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
The law is the law, once you sign an agreement you need to follow through.


A ten year old can sign an agreement, but that doesn't make it legally binding. The same can be said of what President Obama signed; unless you can show me otherwise, from my understanding it's not something the U.S. is legally bound to.


Meh. The storm around this withdrawal has little to do with the actual agreement, and a lot more to do with the giant "F you" and assorted insults being hurled at the rest of the world. We know there's a strand of America, caught up in some bizarre sense of victimhood, that loathes Europe and probably the rest of the world.

It has a voice now. Complete with snowflake-y language. To wit:

"The rest of the world applauded when we signed the Paris Agreement. They went wild. They were so happy. For the simple reason that it put our country, the United States of America, which we all love, at a very, very big economic disadvantage."

There are ways of withdrawing without insulting others. Assigning this kind of malicious motive to Allies amongst others doesn't achieve much, other than alienate Allies and diminish goodwill. To what end? A few domestic votes on the back of a non-binding agreement?

I note that American posters on this thread are losing sight of the obvious: It takes a long time to build a trusting relationship; it takes one incident to squander them.

Once the instant gratification of petty vindictiveness receeds, take a step back and consider the damage this decision, along with all the hostility that's manifesting itself on both sides of the Atlantic doing to the 'west'.

The big picture doesn't look great.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:23 pm

Tugger wrote:
So you fully agree that the world does better without cooperative efforts and goals?


This agreement? Yes. It is easy to imagine that the Paris Agreement will have the unintended consequence of shifting more and more of the world's manufacturing base away from clean economies (U.S., EU, Japan) and to dirty economies (China, India), thereby making everyone worse off.

The Paris Agreement isn't a humanitarian accord. It's an economic agreement. We aren't on the same side economically. We are economic competitors.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:37 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
So if the deal is truly voluntary and the U.S. could unilaterally change emissions targets or contributions, why all the fuss over leaving? Would you have preferred they say they're staying in, but are granting themselves a hundred year waiver on targets until 2117?

Basically yes.

An intelligent president would have done something along those lines. "We are committed to the agreement and will work to address the elements that are negatively impacting the USA and the world...." or some such.


In other words, you would prefer a bullshitter.

The fact this administration does occasionally speak in blunt, plain, unambiguous terms should go in the Good Trump column. The Paris Agreement was a farce. The public doesn't want it. So let's get out, plain and simple.

Tugger wrote:
But Trump is not intelligent enough to understand the cooperative nature of the world and world politics. He thinks the USA can do anything and the world must follow. He does not understand how to actually lead cooperatively, he only knows how to bully lead.


Other nations will cooperate with the U.S. when it suits their interests. They won't when it doesn't. That was true before the Paris Agreement. That will be true after the Paris Agreement.

Wait, are you implying that Trump is not "a bullshitter"?

And also are you saying you do not understand what politics is? There is bullshit and then there is the special subset that mixes reality with bullshittinng and that is politics. Trump is only a bullshitter.

As to cooperation, why would nations cooperate when that cooperation is actually not able to be counted on to stick? Trump has just stated "cooperate with us at your own risk". So where will this cooperation come from? There are dozens of other nations they can cooperate with.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:45 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
We aren't on the same side economically. We are economic competitors.

Interesting. So you firmly believe the world economy is a zero sum environment. You do not believe "a rising tide raises all boasts".

You do realize the US economy has increased for years while other economies have grown as well? Also that the USA has fought for years to benefit and have the world agree that if our economy improves, if something is an economic benefit to the USA that does not mean it will harm their economy. You do understand that don't you? We were the biggest economic competitor in the world "against" all the others in your world view.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Pihero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:49 pm

ElPistolero : "Meh. The storm around this withdrawal has little to do with the actual agreement, and a lot more to do with the giant "F you" and assorted insults being hurled at the rest of the world."


... To which the world has now responded, the bluntest by the Berliner Kurier : "PLANET EARTH TO TRUMP : F*** YOU ! "
That's about the amount of exasperation he's triggered...
and who would want to ally him / her self to that i_mbecil_e ?
The guy managed to destroy dozen of years of diplomacy in just a week... a loose orang outan wouldn't have managed that .
Contrail designer
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:54 pm

Tugger wrote:
Wait, are you implying that Trump is not "a bullshitter"?

And also are you saying you do not understand what politics is? There is bullshit and then there is the special subset that mixes reality with bullshittinng and that is politics. Trump is only a bullshitter.


I'm not implying anything. Stop trying to sound smarter than you are. I said right here:

"The fact this administration does occasionally speak in blunt, plain, unambiguous terms should go in the Good Trump column"

The operative word there is "occasionally." Sometimes Trump is full of bullshit. Other times he is amazingly and refreshingly succinct. His comments on the Paris Agreement fall into the latter category.

Tugger wrote:
As to cooperation, why would nations cooperate when that cooperation is actually not able to be counted on to stick? Trump has just stated "cooperate with us at your own risk". So where will this cooperation come from? There are dozens of other nations they can cooperate with.


The entire premise of the Paris Agreement is "cooperate at your own risk." There was no enforcement mechanism for anyone. That isn't Trump's fault.

Tugger wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
We aren't on the same side economically. We are economic competitors.

Interesting. So you firmly believe the world economy is a zero sum environment. You do not believe "a rising tide raises all boasts".


I believe making unilateral concessions in a negotiation is foolish.
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LAXintl
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:02 pm

Don't blame Trump, blame naive Obama for reaching such a lame agreement which he did not even try to get ratified by the Senate.

If not for the haste of trying to make anything stick after the failure of Copenhagen, leaders approved something utopian which upon closer scrutiny goes against the interest of the U.S, and hence why Obama had to conveniently ignore existence of Congress.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:27 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Don't blame Trump, blame naive Obama for reaching such a lame agreement which he did not even try to get ratified by the Senate.

If not for the haste of trying to make anything stick after the failure of Copenhagen, leaders approved something utopian which upon closer scrutiny goes against the interest of the U.S, and hence why Obama had to conveniently ignore existence of Congress.


That works for a domestic audience. This deal has international stakeholders, and as far as they're concerned, POTUS signed up and then POTUS reneged.

The message being sent is that agreements signed with POTUS aren't worth the paper they're written on depending on the incumbent.

That's apparently lost on the domestic audience. It won't be lost on other governments.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:58 pm

ElPistolero wrote:

The message being sent is that agreements signed with POTUS aren't worth the paper they're written on depending on the incumbent.



Not at all. Presidents can propose and negotiate treaties, but only Congress can ratify them.

This is really no different than many many other nations which allows executive branch to negotiate, and legislative to approve.


Specifically -
Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, includes the Treaty Clause, which empowers the president of the United States to propose and chiefly negotiate agreements, which must be confirmed by the Senate, between the United States and other countries, which become treaties between the United States and other countries after the advice and consent of a supermajority of the United States Senate.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:00 pm

Delocalization has already happened. What is happening now is relocalization. There is nothing more to move to China. Now plants are getting back. Including to the US. Will that continue, or will "made in USA" be something people don't want to buy anymore ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Varsity1
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:13 pm

Tugger wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
We aren't on the same side economically. We are economic competitors.

Interesting. So you firmly believe the world economy is a zero sum environment. You do not believe "a rising tide raises all boasts".

You do realize the US economy has increased for years while other economies have grown as well? Also that the USA has fought for years to benefit and have the world agree that if our economy improves, if something is an economic benefit to the USA that does not mean it will harm their economy. You do understand that don't you? We were the biggest economic competitor in the world "against" all the others in your world view.

Tugg


Part of the problem lies in the utopian fantasy europeans perpetuate. Everyone can't be rich. Someone has to be poor. If you sell out constantly and unilaterally handicap yourself, the poor person is eventually going to be you.

Nominal dollar values in an economy mean nearly nothing. Look no further than the mass unemployment in Europe and sliding purchasing power of all western nations. Wage growth has been stagnate.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:33 pm

Statement by leader of the US House of Representatives

Image
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Aesma
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:42 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Part of the problem lies in the utopian fantasy europeans perpetuate. Everyone can't be rich. Someone has to be poor. If you sell out constantly and unilaterally handicap yourself, the poor person is eventually going to be you.

Nominal dollar values in an economy mean nearly nothing. Look no further than the mass unemployment in Europe and sliding purchasing power of all western nations. Wage growth has been stagnate.


Being poor in my country is much better than in yours.

Maybe rich people are too rich ? Several of them say so themselves.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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lugie
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:43 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Don't blame Trump, blame naive Obama for reaching such a lame agreement which he did not even try to get ratified by the Senate.

If not for the haste of trying to make anything stick after the failure of Copenhagen, leaders approved something utopian which upon closer scrutiny goes against the interest of the U.S, and hence why Obama had to conveniently ignore existence of Congress.


The typical reaction of the American right whenever someone criticizes one of theirs. Blame Obama for it.

Obama has been out of office for nearly half a year now and there's still the same bullshit coming from you.
It seems to me that you work entirely like Trump himself, good at campaigning and opposition where you don't have to do anything but shoot against whoever is in power but once it's your turn you fail to provide anything useful or rational and when called out for it, deflect the blame onto [insert random politician/demographic of the political left spectrum].
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Varsity1
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Part of the problem lies in the utopian fantasy europeans perpetuate. Everyone can't be rich. Someone has to be poor. If you sell out constantly and unilaterally handicap yourself, the poor person is eventually going to be you.

Nominal dollar values in an economy mean nearly nothing. Look no further than the mass unemployment in Europe and sliding purchasing power of all western nations. Wage growth has been stagnate.


Being poor in my country is much better than in yours.

Maybe rich people are too rich ? Several of them say so themselves.


:lol: What a ridiculous response. I'm glad you like being poor in your country, we won't make any effort to change that.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:16 pm

lugie wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Don't blame Trump, blame naive Obama for reaching such a lame agreement which he did not even try to get ratified by the Senate.

If not for the haste of trying to make anything stick after the failure of Copenhagen, leaders approved something utopian which upon closer scrutiny goes against the interest of the U.S, and hence why Obama had to conveniently ignore existence of Congress.


The typical reaction of the American right whenever someone criticizes one of theirs. Blame Obama for it.

Obama has been out of office for nearly half a year now and there's still the same bullshit coming from you.
It seems to me that you work entirely like Trump himself, good at campaigning and opposition where you don't have to do anything but shoot against whoever is in power but once it's your turn you fail to provide anything useful or rational and when called out for it, deflect the blame onto [insert random politician/demographic of the political left spectrum].


:lol: Take a look in the mirror! Obama was elected under the premise of blaming Bush for EVERYTHING in the world. Many liberals still do, and that was a decade ago.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:22 pm

This was a pay-for-leadership contract from which the USA backed out. Everyone else was counting on the revenue stream and not happy now.

We have no cutting edge RE tech, we have no significant RE manufacturing. We are just consumers and like we buy Chinese toasters, we will buy Chinese Solar Panels. End of story. No need to shell out $100 Billion to other countries.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:36 pm

The US wasn't to "shell out" $100 billions. That's what everybody was pledging.

Varsity1 : you're right, income inequality is ridiculous in the US. I predict a revolution if that doesn't improve in the next 10 years.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Varsity1
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:42 pm

Aesma wrote:
The US wasn't to "shell out" $100 billions. That's what everybody was pledging.

Varsity1 : you're right, income inequality is ridiculous in the US. I predict a revolution if that doesn't improve in the next 10 years.


As they say: "Predicting the future is a fools errand."
 
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pvjin
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:46 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
That's a terrible prediction.


Maybe a bit optimistic, but the fact is that the American middle class is dying as automation will inevitably take more and more jobs away. Without more progressive taxation and taxes on automation the income inequality will go through the roof.

People need to wake up and realize that the world where the standard is that everybody works at least 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, is coming to an end worldwide. Soon robots will do most of the work and the key question is how the profits are distributed between members of the society. There are two options - feodalism where most people are poor as hell, which would also hurt the economy as the masses must afford to buy stuff to keep the economy running, or something close to a Nordic social democracy with high taxation on automated businesses and those who earn the most.

As they say: "Predicting the future is a fools errand."


It's not that difficult to make educated guesses about the future if you understand history and current developments.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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OA412
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Obama, Obama, Obama. I was around 8 years ago, and I very distinctly recall conservative members telling Obama supporters to stop blaming Bush one month into Obama's presidency. Here we are eight years later, and all I see is conservative members blaming Obama. It's funny how that works. I'll reiterate what I said earlier, it's embarrassing that we are the only industrialized country in the world in which man-made climate change is up for debate. I understand the ignorant and poorly educated buying into the lies, but it's pretty sad to see members here who've in the past mentioned scientific backgrounds pushing the myth that man-man climate change is a hoax.
ElPistolero wrote:
That works for a domestic audience. This deal has international stakeholders, and as far as they're concerned, POTUS signed up and then POTUS reneged.

The message being sent is that agreements signed with POTUS aren't worth the paper they're written on depending on the incumbent.

That's apparently lost on the domestic audience. It won't be lost on other governments.

This! What Trump is doing is telling the world that our word isn't worth anything. Trump's actions play well in the sticks, but the consequences of his actions will be long lasting. But yeah, those emails were just the worst thing to ever happen to America (and I wasn't even a Hillary supporter)...
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Varsity1
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:53 pm

pvjin wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
That's a terrible prediction.


Maybe a bit optimistic, but the fact is that the American middle class is dying as automation will inevitably take more and more jobs away. Without more progressive taxation and taxes on automation the income inequality will go through the roof.

People need to wake up and realize that the world where the standard is that everybody works at least 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, is coming to an end worldwide. Soon robots will do most of the work and the key question is how the profits are distributed between members of the society. There are two options - feodalism where most people are poor as hell, which would also hurt the economy as the masses must afford to buy stuff to keep the economy running, or something close to a Nordic social democracy with high taxation on automated businesses and those who earn the most.

As they say: "Predicting the future is a fools errand."


It's not that difficult to make educated guesses about the future if you understand history and current developments.


Your predictions are ridiculous. Let's see how it plays out.
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:55 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Your predictions are ridiculous. Let's see how it plays out.


We'll see indeed. This world was very, very different just a mere century ago, there's no reason to believe the change in the future wouldn't be just as fast and massive.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:59 pm

OA412 wrote:
Obama, Obama, Obama. I was around 8 years ago, and I very distinctly recall conservative members telling Obama supporters to stop blaming Bush one month into Obama's presidency. Here we are eight years later, and all I see is conservative members blaming Obama. It's funny how that works. I'll reiterate what I said earlier, it's embarrassing that we are the only industrialized country in the world in which man-made climate change is up for debate. I understand the ignorant and poorly educated buying into the lies, but it's pretty sad to see members here who've in the past mentioned scientific backgrounds pushing the myth that man-man climate change is a hoax.
ElPistolero wrote:
That works for a domestic audience. This deal has international stakeholders, and as far as they're concerned, POTUS signed up and then POTUS reneged.

The message being sent is that agreements signed with POTUS aren't worth the paper they're written on depending on the incumbent.

That's apparently lost on the domestic audience. It won't be lost on other governments.

This! What Trump is doing is telling the world that our word isn't worth anything. Trump's actions play well in the sticks, but the consequences of his actions will be long lasting. But yeah, those emails were just the worst thing to ever happen to America (and I wasn't even a Hillary supporter)...


Look no further than NATO commitments to see that the rest of the world's word isn't worth anything either.

This "agreement" is just another excuse for 'rich' countries (Read USA) to throw money at poor countries while lecturing them like children. The fund that the US has signed up to contribute to is more than all the total foreign aid we currently give to everyone in the world (close to 60bn). Which is already the most foreign aid by any country in the world by a wide margin.

If other countries want to do this fine, we won't stop them in the slightest. More power to them. But it's a huge waste of resources for the United States.
 
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ER757
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:04 pm

The cost of this decision is beginning to show - Europe and China have already begun forming new alliances that exclude the USA
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 4a13432f7b

This will end up affecting trade between the US and other counties eventually and if those of you who are fine with the USA being an outlier and an isolationist don't think this will negatively affect the US economy, you're in for a rude awakening.
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:09 pm

ER757 wrote:
The cost of this decision is beginning to show - Europe and China have already begun forming new alliances that exclude the USA
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 4a13432f7b

This will end up affecting trade between the US and other counties eventually and if those of you who are fine with the USA being an outlier and an isolationist don't think this will negatively affect the US economy, you're in for a rude awakening.

:lol: The US sits out one rip off deal and all the sudden were isolationists on the outside looking in.


What a bunch of emotional drama by the liberals.
 
Pihero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:17 pm

DfwRevolution :"It is easy to imagine that the Paris Agreement will have the unintended consequence of shifting more and more of the world's manufacturing base away from clean economies (U.S., EU, Japan) and to dirty economies (China, India), thereby making everyone worse off."
The US is one of the worst polluters of all and to call it a *clean* economy is either an uninformed statement or plain bullsµ1t .
In 2015, in terms of CO2 emissions,
United States...5,172,338,000 tons......14.34% world emission.....16.1 tons per capita, nearly twice the Germans, three times the French...
China.............10,641,789,000..............29.51%.............................7.7 tons
India ...............2,454,968,000................6.81%.............................1.9 ton
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:48 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Don't blame Trump, blame naive Obama for reaching such a lame agreement which he did not even try to get ratified by the Senate.

If not for the haste of trying to make anything stick after the failure of Copenhagen, leaders approved something utopian which upon closer scrutiny goes against the interest of the U.S, and hence why Obama had to conveniently ignore existence of Congress.


That works for a domestic audience. This deal has international stakeholders, and as far as they're concerned, POTUS signed up and then POTUS reneged.

The message being sent is that agreements signed with POTUS aren't worth the paper they're written on depending on the incumbent.

That's apparently lost on the domestic audience. It won't be lost on other governments.


This is an excellent message to be sending. No agreement signed by the POTUS is worth anything. The POTUS does not have the power to finalize treaties. Only the Senate has that power. Enter into agreement with a rogue POTUS at your own risk. The rules have been clear for over 200 years, and Europe should have learned this lesson well after the League of Nations.

Obama didnt follow the constitution, nothing he did via executive order will last, and anyone depending on his executive orders is a fool.
 
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ER757
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:50 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
The cost of this decision is beginning to show - Europe and China have already begun forming new alliances that exclude the USA
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 4a13432f7b

This will end up affecting trade between the US and other counties eventually and if those of you who are fine with the USA being an outlier and an isolationist don't think this will negatively affect the US economy, you're in for a rude awakening.

:lol: The US sits out one rip off deal and all the sudden were isolationists on the outside looking in.


What a bunch of emotional drama by the liberals.

Ummmm - I am not a liberal - voted Republican FAR more times that I have voted Democrat. I am a firm believer is reduced government spending, making a concerted effort to cut down on welfare fraud, am firmly against illegal immigration and more - but go ahead and keep stereotyping, I don't mind at all......
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:02 pm

ER757 wrote:
The cost of this decision is beginning to show - Europe and China have already begun forming new alliances that exclude the USA
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 4a13432f7b

This will end up affecting trade between the US and other counties eventually and if those of you who are fine with the USA being an outlier and an isolationist don't think this will negatively affect the US economy, you're in for a rude awakening.


Perfect,

China can stop selling us their crap and we'll bring those jobs back to the US. They don't buy shit from us anyway. WIN!
Germany can stop selling us their cars and we'll bring those jobs back to the US. They don't buy shit from us anyway. WIN!
France and Germany can start using Chinese stuff in their airplanes. Good luck with that. LOL
The Arabs can cut off our oil - Oh yeah - we have more oil than them... LOL
Ze Germans can deal with Russia on Ukraine without our help.... LOL
Spain, well, Spain doesn't buy much from us anyway...
Japan and Korea? They arent going to mess with US since we are their defense against China, Russia, and North Korea... LOL
Australia can go ahead and figure out how to deal with Indonesia without us - NOT

the list goes on and on and on...

In 6 months this will be a faint memory
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:04 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Stxy has a take on what it would Really take to Save the Planet.... And ohh... THE TRUTH Hurts Baby !!!

https://youtu.be/QOFhpoDY0As


Thanks for posting this. There is much common sense spoken in that video.

Remember when China was ostracized for imposing severe limits on population growth?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:21 pm

N14AZ wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Why all the disbelief over a businessman saying, "We're backing out of this deal, as the terms are unacceptable,"

Hmm, maybe I am a lousy businessman (actually I was a lousy businessman...) but I thought you think about the terms and negotiate them if they are unacceptable BEFORE you sign.


Yes, that would have been a good idea. But the people who "negotiated" on behalf of the USA were not prepared to question their own wisdom, nor were they willing to submit their ideas and attitudes for national approval.

This "agreement" on the part of the United States was by executive action, avoiding the constitutional requirement for 2/3 Senate approval of a Treaty.

That executive action is now being reversed. I'm not sure if the ~ 3.5-year wait for withdrawal is in any way binding on the USA. If it is, Mr. Trump will be out of office by then and cooler heads will be in charge of our government.

I am quite certain that climate change and global warming are both real, and that there is a large measure of anthropogenic blame for them. I think that workable remedies can best be achieved through international treaties that are in some way enforceable. These non-binding non-treaty feel-good "agreements" that do not address the most pressing issues won't get the job done.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:42 pm

seahawk wrote:
Well done Trump, This move was a clear statement: America first, fuck the rest.


Good, thats why we elected him.

We got sick of Barrys bowing and apology tour.
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:43 pm

OA412 wrote:
Obama, Obama, Obama. I was around 8 years ago, and I very distinctly recall conservative members telling Obama supporters to stop blaming Bush one month into Obama's presidency. Here we are eight years later, and all I see is conservative members blaming Obama. It's funny how that works. I'll reiterate what I said earlier, it's embarrassing that we are the only industrialized country in the world in which man-made climate change is up for debate. I understand the ignorant and poorly educated buying into the lies, but it's pretty sad to see members here who've in the past mentioned scientific backgrounds pushing the myth that man-man climate change is a hoax.
ElPistolero wrote:
That works for a domestic audience. This deal has international stakeholders, and as far as they're concerned, POTUS signed up and then POTUS reneged.

The message being sent is that agreements signed with POTUS aren't worth the paper they're written on depending on the incumbent.

That's apparently lost on the domestic audience. It won't be lost on other governments.

This! What Trump is doing is telling the world that our word isn't worth anything. Trump's actions play well in the sticks, but the consequences of his actions will be long lasting. But yeah, those emails were just the worst thing to ever happen to America (and I wasn't even a Hillary supporter)...


Man made global warming deserves to be up for debate because the science has not settled that question. The predictions so far have all been wrong many timers over from the alarmists of the 1990s.
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:44 pm

ER757 wrote:
The cost of this decision is beginning to show - Europe and China have already begun forming new alliances that exclude the USA
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 4a13432f7b

This will end up affecting trade between the US and other counties eventually and if those of you who are fine with the USA being an outlier and an isolationist don't think this will negatively affect the US economy, you're in for a rude awakening.


Sounds good to me.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:01 pm

Pihero wrote:
The guy managed to destroy dozen of years of diplomacy in just a week...


Then a dozen years of diplomacy was ineffective. All it accomplished was a feel-good, tree-hugger, non-binding, we'll-do-it-maybe document that fails to address the primary cause of anthropogenic climate change -- population growth.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:27 pm

socalgeo wrote:
Obama didnt follow the constitution, nothing he did via executive order will last, and anyone depending on his executive orders is a fool.


So you're saying Trump hasn't accomplished anything yet ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
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