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BobPatterson
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:17 pm

Pihero wrote:
bob patterson :; "How many people in the USA have to go around wearing masks against foul air?
What's the situation in China?
Try Googling "Air Pollution in India? Try the article in The Economist."


You are so much in denial that India and China are your points of comparison ?
Question : Can you get lower ?
Answer : hang onto donald's leadership a wee while longer.


You really don't have to be an idiot.

I mentioned India and China because YOU held them us as examples vs. the United States.

Air pollution in those countries is extreme and much, must worse than in the USA.

Air masks sell much better n those countries.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Pihero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:05 pm

Total denial, as usual and very little else.
Children will be wearing masks and will thank you. Just make them pretty.... Unless enlightened people like some mayors and governors will take matters in their hands and manage to save the lot of you, including the trumpists.
Your children's future deserve their efforts.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:42 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
How many people in the USA have to go around wearing masks against foul air?

What's the situation in China?

You are confusing the issue, the masks used in smog are for particulates, the issue that appears to be at stake here is CO2, something that a mask would not be used for. You were either ignorant of these mismatches or you were deliberately trying to obfuscate, you pick.

trump only made the US leave the Paris agreement because he was worried they were going to try and ban all green house gasses and he is one.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:59 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Instead, we should put our assets to work trying to mitigate the unavoidable results of climate change. We can always spend the money on dams, flood control and other very expensive things without having this idiotic, ideologically overcharged discussion about human influence on our climate. Just grab a shovel and get to work. That might actually help someone down the line, all this talk sure won't.


"Mitigating the results" will cost trillions of dollars. I'm sure US citizens won't complain about that.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:13 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
How many people in the USA have to go around wearing masks against foul air?

What's the situation in China?

You are confusing the issue, the masks used in smog are for particulates, the issue that appears to be at stake here is CO2, something that a mask would not be used for. You were either ignorant of these mismatches or you were deliberately trying to obfuscate, you pick.


On top of that, masks are even common where the air is good to.prevent infections and preventing infecting others.
And of course they don't help against any glad house gases.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:26 pm

aviationaware wrote:
- The United States is supposed to cut emissions by 28% AND give away billions of dollars to other countries, prominent among them rich China(!)


This is one of Trump's lies. You say you read a lot about this but it looks like you're just repeating Trump fake facts one after the other. There is currently no project from the fund in China. Most countries getting money are in Africa.

Besides, the billions that keep being mentioned are only 3 billions over several years. The US budget is something like 4000 billions every year. A good deal of countries are giving more money per capita than the US is/was, even when they are polluting a lot less.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:34 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I find it interesting that the lack of the USA in the Paris agreement is the end of the world per the Europeans. Yet they refuse to negotiate the USA's reentry. :lol:

Must not be that important.


I already answered that one but I'll repeat, you can't negotiate with unreliable parties. Nothing will get negotiated with Trump, that is very apparent. He doesn't care about diplomacy, look at how many diplomats he hasn't replaced after firing the incumbents. Trump doesn't acknowledge humanity's role in climate change, and he doesn't acknowledge the goals of the accord, so what would be the negotiation about, anyway ?

You can see that he has backed down from other similar promises that would have hurt the US economy right away, like leaving NAFTA or starting the nastiness with China over currency manipulation etc. There, he didn't dare to go.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:01 pm

Aesma wrote:

Besides, the billions that keep being mentioned are only 3 billions over several years. The US budget is something like 4000 billions every year. A good deal of countries are giving more money per capita than the US is/was, even when they are polluting a lot less.


The direct cost is not the true cost of the agreement. The fact of the matter is that most European countries have already made their energy prices uncompetitive and thus have great interest for the US to follow suit. It's also in the interest of China and India because it would allow them to catch up much quicker. Of course those two countries are even allowed to expand emissions under the Paris Agreement. Why doesn't anyone ever mention that? The climate alarmists should be in shock about this.
The true cost of the agreement would be making America less competitive, resulting in more jobs lost and nothing else. The Paris Agreement was a sham burdening America with all the costs and no benefit whatsoever.
Like Trump said, he was elected to act in the best interest of the American people. It was in the best interest of the American people to rip that unfair deal apart, so he can only be commended for doing that.

Aesma wrote:
You can see that he has backed down from other similar promises that would have hurt the US economy right away, like leaving NAFTA


Leaving NAFTA would not hurt the US economy one bit. NAFTA has cost jobs and is suppressing wages. It benefitted the wealthy and left the rest out in the cold.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:27 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The direct cost is not the true cost of the agreement. The fact of the matter is that most European countries have already made their energy prices uncompetitive and thus have great interest for the US to follow suit. It's also in the interest of China and India because it would allow them to catch up much quicker. .


We've made everything uncompetitive according to republican "logic", yet we still whip the floor with your economy in terms of competitiveness on the global market.
Having an about 50% more energy efficient economy seems to make more that up for it.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Varsity1
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:03 am

Aesma wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I find it interesting that the lack of the USA in the Paris agreement is the end of the world per the Europeans. Yet they refuse to negotiate the USA's reentry. :lol:

Must not be that important.


I already answered that one but I'll repeat, you can't negotiate with unreliable parties. Nothing will get negotiated with Trump, that is very apparent. He doesn't care about diplomacy, look at how many diplomats he hasn't replaced after firing the incumbents. Trump doesn't acknowledge humanity's role in climate change, and he doesn't acknowledge the goals of the accord, so what would be the negotiation about, anyway ?

You can see that he has backed down from other similar promises that would have hurt the US economy right away, like leaving NAFTA or starting the nastiness with China over currency manipulation etc. There, he didn't dare to go.


So Euro politicians base their decisions on hypothetical assumptions now?

Trump loves negotiations and deals. I can't take someone who says otherwise seriously.
 
salttee
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:20 am

What's the difference between a hypothetical assumption and an ordinary assumption?

And what does that have to do with anything Aesma said anyway?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:48 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Trump loves negotiations and deals. I can't take someone who says otherwise seriously.


He sure does. He is just not any good at it. Diplomacy isn't a market where you can tell a supplier "either that or I'll find somebody else", because the is no other China or EU he can turn to. There isn't even a 2nd Burkina faso. He has to compromise, and as someone that doesn't believe in win-win situations, he is ill suited for any sort of diplomacy, and almost more important, he is not intelligent enough to realise that and rely on people that are suited for it.

"The Art of the deal" is largely fact free made up nonsense.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Varsity1
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:53 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Trump loves negotiations and deals. I can't take someone who says otherwise seriously.


He sure does. He is just not any good at it. Diplomacy isn't a market where you can tell a supplier "either that or I'll find somebody else", because the is no other China or EU he can turn to. There isn't even a 2nd Burkina faso. He has to compromise, and as someone that doesn't believe in win-win situations, he is ill suited for any sort of diplomacy, and almost more important, he is not intelligent enough to realise that and rely on people that are suited for it.

"The Art of the deal" is largely fact free made up nonsense.

Best regards
Thomas


Only children and fairy tales believe in win-win situations.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:08 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Only children and fairy tales believe in win-win situations.


That is correct, kids believe in win-win situation, it does need education, in the form of mathematical game theory, to know they are real.
Most stuff in our lives is best modelled as non-zero-sum game. Ask your math teacher, no need to believe me.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:06 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
"The Art of the deal" is largely fact free made up nonsense.


Yup, complete nonsense even. And don't take it from me, but take it from the guy whom actually wrote it, he is not proud of his work to say the least: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxF_CDDJ0YI&t=1905s
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:09 am

delete double post.
Last edited by Dutchy on Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:11 am

Varsity1 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Trump loves negotiations and deals. I can't take someone who says otherwise seriously.


He sure does. He is just not any good at it. Diplomacy isn't a market where you can tell a supplier "either that or I'll find somebody else", because the is no other China or EU he can turn to. There isn't even a 2nd Burkina faso. He has to compromise, and as someone that doesn't believe in win-win situations, he is ill suited for any sort of diplomacy, and almost more important, he is not intelligent enough to realise that and rely on people that are suited for it.

"The Art of the deal" is largely fact free made up nonsense.

Best regards
Thomas


Only children and fairy tales believe in win-win situations.



why would I make a deal with you if I don't get a win out of it? Why would you make a deal with me if you don't get a win out of it?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:01 am

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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:05 am

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Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:34 am

Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Only children and fairy tales believe in win-win situations.



why would I make a deal with you if I don't get a win out of it? Why would you make a deal with me if you don't get a win out of it?


Makes you wonder who he thinks is getting screwed over everyone he buys bread from a bakery. ..

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:05 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Only children and fairy tales believe in win-win situations.



why would I make a deal with you if I don't get a win out of it? Why would you make a deal with me if you don't get a win out of it?


Makes you wonder who he thinks is getting screwed over everyone he buys bread from a bakery. ..

Best regards
Thomas


Indeed. Putin, Trump and other "strong" men, feel that the world is a zero-sum game, it isn't. They feel it is a win-loose, e.g. if I win, you must loose, it isn't.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:06 am

tommy1808 wrote:

We've made everything uncompetitive according to republican "logic", yet we still whip the floor with your economy in terms of competitiveness on the global market.
Having an about 50% more energy efficient economy seems to make more that up for it.

Best regards
Thomas


The Germany economy is 'competitive' (interesting word for a wage suppressed economy really) because Europe has a ridiculous failed currency that happens to be massively undervalued for Germany. We've had this discussion elsewhere, but having a large foreign trade surplus (which you seem to identify as being competitive) is just as bad for an economy as having a large deficit over the log run. But German politicians are very much experts in selling it as a wonderful thing, gotta give them that.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:50 am

aviationaware wrote:
The Germany economy is 'competitive' (interesting word for a wage suppressed economy really)


10 usd/hour minimum wage is wage supression now? Being high supportive of unions is?

because Europe has a ridiculous failed currency that happens to be massively undervalued for Germany.


Bla bla .. repeating that nonsense doesn't make it true. Germany has the 4th hugest labor cost per hour in the EU for production jobs (the only ones that matter for exports), two of the 3 more expensive countries have a higher gdp/capita than Germany. Higher wages are the same as a higher currancy value. If you look at unit labour costs, it seems that the USD is much more undervalued compared to the EURO with regards to Germany.
Image

But don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.

We've had this discussion elsewhere, but having a large foreign trade surplus (which you seem to identify as being competitive)


Which it quite simply is.

is just as bad for an economy as having a large deficit over the log run.


I never said it wasn't.

But German politicians are very much experts in selling it as a wonderful thing, gotta give them that.


1. That is a flat out lie, German politicians have identified that as a problem a long time ago. However, we do have a market economy, so the influence the government has is somewhat limited. Attemps of the German states to enforce higher payment standards have been blocked by the EU court in 2008, C-346/06 if you want to look up the ruling.

2. The big fraud is politicians selling the ability to devaluate ones own currency a good thing. It is nothing more but a wage reduction workers have no say in.

3. The EURO was supposed to kill the German economy, because supposedly we are not competetive. When that proved wrong, the narrative just got changed 180°.
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:56 am

tommy1808 wrote:

10 usd/hour minimum wage is wage supression now? Being high supportive of unions is?


Do you really think people would accept the current wage level if there weren't millions of eastern Europeans competing for the low paying jobs? You#re delusional.

tommy1808 wrote:
But German politicians are very much experts in selling it as a wonderful thing, gotta give them that.


1. That is a flat out lie, German politicians have identified that as a problem a long time ago.


Discussion is over at this point. If you want to return with sensible ideas, feel free. But telling me that German politicians have been railing against the export surplus is just beyond skewing the facts. You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
Olddog
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:10 am

You are lecturing Germans from a country that allow workers to be only paid with tips ?

Are you for real ?
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:35 am

aviationaware wrote:
The Germany economy is 'competitive' (interesting word for a wage suppressed economy really) because Europe has a ridiculous failed currency that happens to be massively undervalued for Germany.

Considering that the German mark was worth less than 1 euro (at a final conversion rate of 1.95DM = 1 euro) and the euro has not reached a point that would theoretically make the German mark equal 1 USD (the euro would have to reach $1.95 for that), this argument doesn't hold water, especially when 18 other countries which trade directly with Germany have the same currency (meaning that Germany receives no benefit).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:00 pm

aviationaware wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

10 usd/hour minimum wage is wage supression now? Being high supportive of unions is?


Do you really think people would accept the current wage level if there weren't millions of eastern Europeans competing for the low paying jobs? You#re delusional.


We are competing with Chinese workers, regardless of currency. I just gave you proof that our wage level is not low compared to those other eu workers, in fact it is high. I also showed you that the US$ is undervalued as per your own argument. I'd say you flat out ignoring that makes you the delusional one ....

Discussion is over at this point. If you want to return with sensible ideas, feel free.


Classical exit by someone that just unretrieveably lost the argument.

But telling me that German politicians have been railing against the export surplus is just beyond skewing the facts. You should be ashamed of yourself.


I even gave you the EU ruling ruling that stopped German attempts to remedy the problem a decade ago. But thank you for playing.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:03 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The Germany economy is 'competitive' (interesting word for a wage suppressed economy really) because Europe has a ridiculous failed currency that happens to be massively undervalued for Germany.

Considering that the German mark was worth less than 1 euro (at a final conversion rate of 1.95DM = 1 euro) and the euro has not reached a point that would theoretically make the German mark equal 1 USD (the euro would have to reach $1.95 for that), this argument doesn't hold water, especially when 18 other countries which trade directly with Germany have the same currency (meaning that Germany receives no benefit).


Congratulations, you just proved that you don't understand currencies one bit.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:05 pm

The US is the worst currency manipulator of all, freeloading on the entire world. Same thing they do with the environment, really.
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:35 pm

Aesma wrote:
The US is the worst currency manipulator of all, freeloading on the entire world. Same thing they do with the environment, really.


True, massive trade deficit, financed by the rest of the world.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:07 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Congratulations, you just proved that you don't understand currencies one bit.


He did the math wrong, but the argument is correct. The EUR is stronger vs. the US $ than the DM ever was. Not a surprise considering how undervalued the US $ is.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:23 pm

aviationaware wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The Germany economy is 'competitive' (interesting word for a wage suppressed economy really) because Europe has a ridiculous failed currency that happens to be massively undervalued for Germany.

Considering that the German mark was worth less than 1 euro (at a final conversion rate of 1.95DM = 1 euro) and the euro has not reached a point that would theoretically make the German mark equal 1 USD (the euro would have to reach $1.95 for that), this argument doesn't hold water, especially when 18 other countries which trade directly with Germany have the same currency (meaning that Germany receives no benefit).


Congratulations, you just proved that you don't understand currencies one bit.

Well, since you have a PhD in economics and are a regular Forbes contributor/guru, why don't you explain to me how currencies work and why the euro is "massively undervalued for Germany"?

Put up or shut up.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Mir
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:11 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Mir wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I see. So in your estimation, someone not wanting to be part of a deal that requires vastly disparate levels of participation that benefit others at their expense is somehow lying, stupid, or removed from reality?


When the deal doesn't actually require anything and is strictly voluntary, then those words are actually quite appropriate.

“It seems very unnecessary to have to withdraw from the Paris agreement if the concern is focused on the U.S. emissions target and financial contributions,” said Susan Biniaz, who served at the State Department as the United States’ lead climate change lawyer from 1989 until earlier this year. “The U.S. can unilaterally change its emissions target under the agreement — it doesn’t have to ‘renegotiate’ it — and financial contributions are voluntary.”

“If the president believes the Paris agreement is a bad deal for the U.S. because our voluntary emission commitments are more stringent than those of other large emitters, the U.S. can reduce the ambition of our domestic policies while still remaining part of the agreement, rather than giving up our seat at the table and undermining U.S. leadership and credibility,” added Jason Bordoff, who heads the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ene ... d6d63331ea



So if the deal is truly voluntary and the U.S. could unilaterally change emissions targets or contributions, why all the fuss over leaving? Would you have preferred they say they're staying in, but are granting themselves a hundred year waiver on targets until 2117?


Yes. Because at the very least we'd keep a seat at the table to lobby on behalf of our own businesses to be involved in the growing green economy. Which is why so many businesses wanted us to stay in. Staying in would be an incredibly easy way to not burn bridges with an increasingly interconnected world.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:10 pm

Mir wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Mir wrote:

When the deal doesn't actually require anything and is strictly voluntary, then those words are actually quite appropriate.

“It seems very unnecessary to have to withdraw from the Paris agreement if the concern is focused on the U.S. emissions target and financial contributions,” said Susan Biniaz, who served at the State Department as the United States’ lead climate change lawyer from 1989 until earlier this year. “The U.S. can unilaterally change its emissions target under the agreement — it doesn’t have to ‘renegotiate’ it — and financial contributions are voluntary.”

“If the president believes the Paris agreement is a bad deal for the U.S. because our voluntary emission commitments are more stringent than those of other large emitters, the U.S. can reduce the ambition of our domestic policies while still remaining part of the agreement, rather than giving up our seat at the table and undermining U.S. leadership and credibility,” added Jason Bordoff, who heads the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ene ... d6d63331ea



So if the deal is truly voluntary and the U.S. could unilaterally change emissions targets or contributions, why all the fuss over leaving? Would you have preferred they say they're staying in, but are granting themselves a hundred year waiver on targets until 2117?


Yes. Because at the very least we'd keep a seat at the table to lobby on behalf of our own businesses to be involved in the growing green economy. Which is why so many businesses wanted us to stay in. Staying in would be an incredibly easy way to not burn bridges with an increasingly interconnected world.


You never sit at the table and negotiate with the salesperson when you want to buy a car; you get up and walk out.

And that's when the manager, who is actually empowered to make a deal, comes rushing out to see you.

Just wait.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Mir
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:38 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Mir wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:


So if the deal is truly voluntary and the U.S. could unilaterally change emissions targets or contributions, why all the fuss over leaving? Would you have preferred they say they're staying in, but are granting themselves a hundred year waiver on targets until 2117?


Yes. Because at the very least we'd keep a seat at the table to lobby on behalf of our own businesses to be involved in the growing green economy. Which is why so many businesses wanted us to stay in. Staying in would be an incredibly easy way to not burn bridges with an increasingly interconnected world.


You never sit at the table and negotiate with the salesperson when you want to buy a car; you get up and walk out.

And that's when the manager, who is actually empowered to make a deal, comes rushing out to see you.

Just wait.


Except that the world doesn't really need the US. They've got their own ability to produce green technology. They've got China's. They've got India's. So they'll just keep the progress going amongst themselves and happily sell us their own stuff when we decide we need it. It won't be too long before the aisles at Lowe's are filled with solar panels made in China, with perhaps some more upmarket ones made in Germany as well. But you won't be seeing US-made panels in stores in Germany or China.

But hey, who needs jobs? Those people can just go work in the expanding coal mining sector. Oh wait, automation is making those jobs redundant, so I guess that won't work.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:40 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
You never sit at the table and negotiate with the salesperson when you want to buy a car; you get up and walk out.

And that's when the manager, who is actually empowered to make a deal, comes rushing out to see you.

Just wait.

That could be the case if the agreement fails because the US puts it over the top, but if you have countries who constitute about 83% of emissions already willing to commit, I think the US won't be missed, especially if states take action to reduce the emissions even further.

The car salesman in your example desperately needs to make a sale, but if other customers are lined up, he'll probably have a driver take the customer home and bill them for their time. If the biggest emitters are willing to abide by the terms, then US leaving the agreement is a setback, but not one that dooms the accord. It will take a Democratic president with a Democratic Congress to merely say "we're back in under the original terms" to make the accord a full success.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:41 pm

Mir wrote:
the world doesn't really need the US. They've got their own ability to produce green technology. They've got China's. They've got India's. So they'll just keep the progress going amongst themselves and happily sell us their own stuff when we decide we need it.


If that were truly the case, then why all the heartburn over the U.S. walking away from the deal?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:05 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
If that were truly the case, then why all the heartburn over the U.S. walking away from the deal?


Heartburn? Not fully up to date with US colloquialisms, but isn't heartburn caused by worry?

I think there's more anger than worry here, as there tends to be when one country ups and leaves an agreement with everyone else. Doubt it's causing heartburn. Probably dissolved a lot of goodwill, but most Americans can address that with the strategic use of Canadian flags on their backpacks ;p. I can send you some if you ever decide to travel outside the U.S.

In any event, looks like reasoning with a certain group of Americans is akin to reasoning with a child throwing a tantrum ("me, me, me, me, me"). The bigger picture and acceptable behaviour (ie - not publicly accusing the whole world of trying to screw only you over) have gone out the window.

Seems the (former?) US preference for a rules-based international order may be giving way to "each country do what's best for them", regardless of how it affects others.
 
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:11 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
I think there's more anger than worry here, as there tends to be when one country ups and leaves an agreement with everyone else.


So then you disagree with Mir's assertion that the world "doesn't really need the U.S." to be part of this?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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ElPistolero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:22 pm

AAPilot wrote:

Man made global warming deserves to be up for debate because the science has not settled that question. The predictions so far have all been wrong many timers over from the alarmists of the 1990s.


Begs the question: what is required to establish if science has settled the climate change question?

It seems a significant if not overwhelming majority of scientists accept climate change is occurring. Some do not.

Is evolution scientifically proven? Because it won't take much to find American scientists who believe it isn't. In fact, I can name one prominent American neurosurgeon who thinks the theory of evolution was promoted by the devil.

Is universal consensus the only standard?
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:34 pm

EA CO AS wrote:

So then you disagree with Mir's assertion that the world "doesn't really need the U.S." to be part of this?


I assume you're referring to his quote about green technology? No, I don't think the world needs the U.S. to figure out green tech.

Or is it a broader philosophical question? Because while everyone has the ability to go it alone, having a few friends on hand usually enriches ones experience. It's why there's a universal consensus that collaboration and cooperation are virtues, while selfishness is not.

That aside, I can provide Canadian flags in all sizes in the event that you decide to travel abroad. Let me know.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:21 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
AAPilot wrote:

Man made global warming deserves to be up for debate because the science has not settled that question. The predictions so far have all been wrong many timers over from the alarmists of the 1990s.


Begs the question: what is required to establish if science has settled the climate change question?

It seems a significant if not overwhelming majority of scientists accept climate change is occurring. Some do not.

Is evolution scientifically proven? Because it won't take much to find American scientists who believe it isn't. In fact, I can name one prominent American neurosurgeon who thinks the theory of evolution was promoted by the devil.

Is universal consensus the only standard?


I admire your enthusiasm to debate this. I wouldn't anymore. Don't debate scientific fact, no point to that. If he doesn't believe in facts, so be it. The same with evolution theory: doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, the outcome in nature is the same.

What are we going to do about it, that is the question.
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I admire your enthusiasm to debate this. I wouldn't anymore. Don't debate scientific fact, no point to that. If he doesn't believe in facts, so be it. The same with evolution theory: doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, the outcome in nature is the same.

What are we going to do about it, that is the question.

Indeed. The original comment was a reply to one of my posts. I will not engage anyone who attempts to argue that scientific facts are up for debate or that science is just a liberal conspiracy. It's not worth it. If you want to believe that facts are up for debate, then I have nothing left to say to you.
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:02 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

So then you disagree with Mir's assertion that the world "doesn't really need the U.S." to be part of this?


I assume you're referring to his quote about green technology? No, I don't think the world needs the U.S. to figure out green tech.

Or is it a broader philosophical question? Because while everyone has the ability to go it alone, having a few friends on hand usually enriches ones experience.


Got it; so there is "anger" (your words, not mine) about the U.S. withdrawing from a voluntary agreement with arbitrary, changed-on-a-whim metrics.

Why?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Dutchy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:10 pm

OA412 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I admire your enthusiasm to debate this. I wouldn't anymore. Don't debate scientific fact, no point to that. If he doesn't believe in facts, so be it. The same with evolution theory: doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, the outcome in nature is the same.

What are we going to do about it, that is the question.

Indeed. The original comment was a reply to one of my posts. I will not engage anyone who attempts to argue that scientific facts are up for debate or that science is just a liberal conspiracy. It's not worth it. If you want to believe that facts are up for debate, then I have nothing left to say to you.


I applaud you, sir.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:22 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

So then you disagree with Mir's assertion that the world "doesn't really need the U.S." to be part of this?


I assume you're referring to his quote about green technology? No, I don't think the world needs the U.S. to figure out green tech.

Or is it a broader philosophical question? Because while everyone has the ability to go it alone, having a few friends on hand usually enriches ones experience.


Got it; so there is "anger" (your words, not mine) about the U.S. withdrawing from a voluntary agreement with arbitrary, changed-on-a-whim metrics.

Why?


Because they will continue to pollute and thereby consuming a lot more of the carbon (and other greenhouse gasses) per person than which they are "entitle" to.

The world doesn't need the US to have the technology to change, lots of countries to do the research and to produce the goods. But the emission of fossil fuels needs to come down and it will, one way or another.

Only tree countries aren't agreeing to the Paris agreement framework: Nicaragua (didn't sign because it didn't go as far as they thought it was needed), Syria (well, they have a problem right now, not in 100 years, so they get a pass) and now Trump's America. So basically the US is isolated in this, congratulations, and as with everything, this will have consequences, in the end, so you must accept them as well. Only 350m Americans and 7,2bn other citizens of the earth, so less than 5% can't spoil it for the 95% and get away unharmed (except for the obvious: experience the consequences of climate change first hand, like in Florida or other states).

This is a primary example of a pyrrus victory.
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tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:16 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Mir wrote:
the world doesn't really need the US. They've got their own ability to produce green technology. They've got China's. They've got India's. So they'll just keep the progress going amongst themselves and happily sell us their own stuff when we decide we need it.


If that were truly the case, then why all the heartburn over the U.S. walking away from the deal?


Why all the heartburn about ISIS or Al Qaida? They can't effectively do anything beyond needle pricks after all......

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:35 pm

EA CO AS wrote:

Got it; so there is "anger" (your words, not mine) about the U.S. withdrawing from a voluntary agreement with arbitrary, changed-on-a-whim metrics.

Why?


Too much semantics and legalese. Take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

- 190 + countries think the situation is so serious, they overcome all kinds of disagreements to reach an agreement to TRY to do something about it on a voluntary basis. Each and everyone of these countries could have walked away, since doing nothing is always easier than doing something.

- Then the U.S. decides that its not a good enough agreement. This is generally acceptable, if done properly. Instead we get a public speech about how everyone else are co-conspirators who had set out to harm the U.S. Doesn't matter if they're friends or foe - they're all apparently hell-bent at laughing at the U.S. It's kind of an insulting thing to do, don't you think? It tends to get people angry.

Beyond the legalese and nationalistic jingoism, the optics are terrible. It's akin to telling a drowning person that he mislead you into thinking he was drowning to make your very nice clothes get wet, and that you wouldn't help him unless it involved zero effort on your part.

While the fate of Pacific Islanders, for example, is inconsequential to anyone with a nationalist bent (they're not American/British/Russian/Indian/Chinese/whatever, so who cares?), most people, including many leaders, tend to have a moral compass. As a result, they tend to respond to rhw flippant disregard on display here with anger.

It's entirely possible that everyone is doomed anyway, but point blank refusing to even try at the outset tends ro elicit anger. Accusing them of malice on top of that during the announcement is the cherry on the cake.

At the end of the day, this is an issue for humanity writ large, not lawyers.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:49 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Instead we get a public speech about how everyone else are co-conspirators who had set out to harm the U.S.


... Not to forget how messed up your brain has to be if you think that North AND South Korea or Saudi Arabia AND Iran team up to conspire against the USA.
That makes Kim Jong look totally sane.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump expected to withdraw from the Paris agreement

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Only tree countries aren't agreeing to the Paris agreement framework: Nicaragua (didn't sign because it didn't go as far as they thought it was needed), Syria (well, they have a problem right now, not in 100 years, so they get a pass) and now Trump's America. So basically the US is isolated in this, .


Russia didn't ratify the agreement either, so of course their employees can't stay in ... what do the governments of Syria and the USA have in common?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
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