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treetreeseven
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States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:34 pm

Representatives of American cities, states and companies are preparing to submit a plan to the United Nations pledging to meet the United States’ greenhouse gas emissions targets under the Paris climate accord, despite President Trump’s decision to withdraw from the agreement.

The unnamed group — which, so far, includes 30 mayors, three governors, more than 80 university presidents and more than 100 businesses — is negotiating with the United Nations to have its submission accepted alongside contributions to the Paris climate deal by other nations.

“We’re going to do everything America would have done if it had stayed committed,” Michael Bloomberg, the former New York City mayor who is coordinating the effort, said in an interview.

By redoubling their climate efforts, he said, cities, states and corporations could achieve, or even surpass, the pledge of the administration of former President Barack Obama to reduce America’s planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions 26 percent by 2025, from their levels in 2005.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/climate/american-cities-climate-standards.html

I'm interested to see how "conservatives," who are allegedly in favor of state and local rights versus federal control, try to spin this.

Trump is selling out the world to pander to the ignorant anti-science redneck wing of his base. Period. Even ExxonMobil and Conoco were against this reprehensible and idiotic decision.

Renewable energy is growing by leaps and bounds,[1] FAR faster than the latest government (EIA) estimates as of 2012.[2] There are twice as many jobs in solar alone as there are coal miner jobs in the USA.[3] Looks like West Virginia et al will be left in the dust ... again.

This decision will hurt US competitiveness in the exploding global renewable energy market at a time we can least afford it. It's not only the Paris accord. How long will renewable subsidies last under this circus of morons and bloodsuckers? There is money to be made here for American businesses. It's not just manufacturing, it's also science - building more efficient solar panels and better wind turbines. Testing ideas such as floating solar farms (built-in cooling and prevents evaporation, which can be a desire effect) and solar thermal which can continue generating power after sunset.

A large portion of the money invested in renewables is already going to China. Do we want that? It will only increase: The Chinese government is slowly but surely divorcing itself from coal, as it subsidizes the $#|+ out of renewables and installs huge amounts of renewable capacity to meet increasing electricity demand. China already exports enormous numbers of PV panels. And other foreign companies like Vestas will grab more market share and jobs. Meanwhile the fossil fuel industry continues to be subsidized here. Unbelievable.

Trump ceded a potential for American leadership in a global market that will be booming for years to come - all because he needed something to point to as a "success" during his disastrous term so far.

1. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ion-people
2. https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/05 ... edictions/
3. http://fortune.com/2015/01/16/solar-jobs-report-2014/
 
Varsity1
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:18 pm

The renewable energy market is exploding because it was subsidized to insanity over the past 8 years.
 
treetreeseven
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:18 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
The renewable energy market is exploding because it was subsidized to insanity over the past 8 years.

And with good reason, because it's renewable. Fossil fuels are not. This is reason enough. Meanwhile, fossil fuel companies are still subsidized with billions of taxpayer dollars with no good reason. Fossil fuels are old, objectively harmful, and a finite resource.

We need innovation in the energy sector and we will likely always need it. Subsidizing new and better technology is how much of this occurs. If we do achieve commercially usable fusion power in our lifetimes, it will be in large part due to government subsidies.

Of course there is pork-barrel corruption and waste in subsidies for new tech as well as (obviously) old. Whether or not we as a civilization view that as something to be stamped out or as a cost of doing business, if subsidies are to exist, they should benefit the citizenry as a whole of the government which funds them. Fossil fuel subsidies do not.
 
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ER757
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:01 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
The renewable energy market is exploding because it was subsidized to insanity over the past 8 years.

As opposed to the oil industry which of course is not :sarcastic:
 
AAPilot
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:48 pm

treetreeseven wrote:
Representatives of American cities, states and companies are preparing to submit a plan to the United Nations pledging to meet the United States’ greenhouse gas emissions targets under the Paris climate accord, despite President Trump’s decision to withdraw from the agreement.

The unnamed group — which, so far, includes 30 mayors, three governors, more than 80 university presidents and more than 100 businesses — is negotiating with the United Nations to have its submission accepted alongside contributions to the Paris climate deal by other nations.

“We’re going to do everything America would have done if it had stayed committed,” Michael Bloomberg, the former New York City mayor who is coordinating the effort, said in an interview.

By redoubling their climate efforts, he said, cities, states and corporations could achieve, or even surpass, the pledge of the administration of former President Barack Obama to reduce America’s planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions 26 percent by 2025, from their levels in 2005.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/climate/american-cities-climate-standards.html

I'm interested to see how "conservatives," who are allegedly in favor of state and local rights versus federal control, try to spin this.

Trump is selling out the world to pander to the ignorant anti-science redneck wing of his base. Period. Even ExxonMobil and Conoco were against this reprehensible and idiotic decision.

Renewable energy is growing by leaps and bounds,[1] FAR faster than the latest government (EIA) estimates as of 2012.[2] There are twice as many jobs in solar alone as there are coal miner jobs in the USA.[3] Looks like West Virginia et al will be left in the dust ... again.

This decision will hurt US competitiveness in the exploding global renewable energy market at a time we can least afford it. It's not only the Paris accord. How long will renewable subsidies last under this circus of morons and bloodsuckers? There is money to be made here for American businesses. It's not just manufacturing, it's also science - building more efficient solar panels and better wind turbines. Testing ideas such as floating solar farms (built-in cooling and prevents evaporation, which can be a desire effect) and solar thermal which can continue generating power after sunset.

A large portion of the money invested in renewables is already going to China. Do we want that? It will only increase: The Chinese government is slowly but surely divorcing itself from coal, as it subsidizes the $#|+ out of renewables and installs huge amounts of renewable capacity to meet increasing electricity demand. China already exports enormous numbers of PV panels. And other foreign companies like Vestas will grab more market share and jobs. Meanwhile the fossil fuel industry continues to be subsidized here. Unbelievable.

Trump ceded a potential for American leadership in a global market that will be booming for years to come - all because he needed something to point to as a "success" during his disastrous term so far.

1. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ion-people
2. https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/05 ... edictions/
3. http://fortune.com/2015/01/16/solar-jobs-report-2014/



Nothing but virtue signaling.

Either way they can do what they want but i'm happy knowing that my federal taxes and regulations won't be used to harm our business. If commiefornia wants to bankrupt their state again so be it. Just don't expect a bailout.
 
AAPilot
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:50 pm

treetreeseven wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The renewable energy market is exploding because it was subsidized to insanity over the past 8 years.

And with good reason, because it's renewable. Fossil fuels are not. This is reason enough. Meanwhile, fossil fuel companies are still subsidized with billions of taxpayer dollars with no good reason. Fossil fuels are old, objectively harmful, and a finite resource.

We need innovation in the energy sector and we will likely always need it. Subsidizing new and better technology is how much of this occurs. If we do achieve commercially usable fusion power in our lifetimes, it will be in large part due to government subsidies.

Of course there is pork-barrel corruption and waste in subsidies for new tech as well as (obviously) old. Whether or not we as a civilization view that as something to be stamped out or as a cost of doing business, if subsidies are to exist, they should benefit the citizenry as a whole of the government which funds them. Fossil fuel subsidies do not.


"Renewable" are non-viable and at this point are nothing more than a gimmick. Nuclear power is the best solution but the eco-terrorists don't want that. You can't the US on wind and it's not cost effective. All i care about is the price of my electric bill I don't care how I get my power and a majority of Americans feel the same way.
 
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lugie
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:08 pm

AAPilot wrote:

"Renewable" are non-viable and at this point are nothing more than a gimmick. Nuclear power is the best solution but the eco-terrorists don't want that. You can't the US on wind and it's not cost effective. All i care about is the price of my electric bill I don't care how I get my power and a majority of Americans feel the same way.


-No, they apparently don't;
Image
http://climatecommunication.yale.edu/pu ... _by_state/

Apart from that, while I firmly disagree with you on your general view on renewables I do agree that the almost religious way many on the left refuse nuclear power is stupid. Nuclear power is the by far most effective CO2-neutral power source we know so far. Which is why I believe that we should keep them all running and maybe invest in some new plants as a green bridge technology until we manage to optimize energy yields from renewables.
At least that would allow for a quick extermination of all things coal.
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TWA772LR
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:30 pm

How about a shir from oil to Natural Gas? That would still make a dent in a decrease in CO2 emmisions.

The coal miners are worried about their jobs (they rightfully should be). To circumvent that, WV should make provisions for renewable energy companies to set up manufacturing centers in WV, and use community colleges to train and educate workers that would eventually transfer out of the coal mines.

But of course school is for libtards.
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tommy1808
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:48 am

lugie wrote:
I do agree that the almost religious way many on the left refuse nuclear power is stupid.


Yup, we can build safe nuclear power plants even without proliferation risk (unless someone want to kill his own people using U233 for bombs), but

Nuclear power is the by far most effective CO2-neutral power source we know so far.


Is only true in the same sense as electrical cars are CO2-Neutral.

Considering that nuclear power is pretty expensive, natural gas fired plants with CO2 capture may not just emit less CO2, but also be cheaper.
But without a full scale plant to get operational data, we can't say that yet.

Uranium mining is also about as environmentally friendly as open pit coal mining. But that is no reason not to burn up what we already have.

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Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:00 am

treetreeseven wrote:
Trump ceded a potential for American leadership in a global market that will be booming for years to come - all because he needed something to point to as a "success" during his disastrous term so far.


Corporate America is quite capable of leadership in global markets provided they have competitive products to offer. I doubt that President Trump will manage to kill all research into improving renewable energy methodologies. Corporations are funding plenty of research into electric batteries, for instance.

What I do not see mentioned, at least not prominently, is that the nation cannot make much headway in massively converting automobiles, trucks and buses from fossil fuels to electric without constructing an equally new and massive national electrical grid. Ditto for conversions in the manufacturing sector.

Converting power plants from coal to gas is of course doable now. Additional generation of electricity is coming to American residential rooftops, thus freeing up capacity for recharging the batteries of electric automobiles, and expanding business use of electricity.

It remains to be seen what, if any, of this is disrupted by actions taken by Mr. Trump by executive order or by the Congress through legislation.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
ltbewr
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:02 pm

Many utilities are well along the way of ending the use of coal for electric power production, mainly by conversion to natural gas but also solar not just due to regulations but as sound long term business decisions. Nuclear power is not gaining due to the long term economic, safety and environmental issues (mainly from spent uranium based fuel). Beyond the worldwide contributions of reducing coal use, there can be local and regional benefits. The sharp reductions in coal use has significantly reduced 'acid rain' that was devastating forested areas for example in the eastern and northeastern USA. With the reductions forests have come back from the brink.
The sad part is that Trump and other political leaders only care about short term benefits for a narrow group of people and corporations. I do think another reason for the attempt to rollback pollution regulations and withdrawal from the Paris Accords is that still too many countries, in particular India and China, are massive polluters while the USA agrees to make major reductions that are offset by such other countries.
 
tommy1808
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:07 pm

ltbewr wrote:
in particular India and China, are massive polluters while the USA agrees to make major reductions that are offset by such other countries.


It looks like China has peaked CO2 emissions in 2016 and will see a slight reduction in 2017.... and Not as a free side effect of switching to natural gas, but as a really efficiency gain and massive investments in renewable energy. Growing 5 to 7% gdp and reducing the CO2 emissions is quite something.
All of that is happening at a very low efficiency level, so many fruits are low hanging.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
StarAC17
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:34 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
treetreeseven wrote:
Trump ceded a potential for American leadership in a global market that will be booming for years to come - all because he needed something to point to as a "success" during his disastrous term so far.


Corporate America is quite capable of leadership in global markets provided they have competitive products to offer. I doubt that President Trump will manage to kill all research into improving renewable energy methodologies. Corporations are funding plenty of research into electric batteries, for instance.

What I do not see mentioned, at least not prominently, is that the nation cannot make much headway in massively converting automobiles, trucks and buses from fossil fuels to electric without constructing an equally new and massive national electrical grid. Ditto for conversions in the manufacturing sector.

Converting power plants from coal to gas is of course doable now. Additional generation of electricity is coming to American residential rooftops, thus freeing up capacity for recharging the batteries of electric automobiles, and expanding business use of electricity.

It remains to be seen what, if any, of this is disrupted by actions taken by Mr. Trump by executive order or by the Congress through legislation.


So if I were running a US corporation (lets say Boeing because it is A.net) that exports their products to globally it would be in my interest to abide by this accord.

Reason being that the US does not have a lot of Free Trade agreements with the big global markets at the moment. They have withdrawn from the TPP, TTIP is more than likely dead because Trump has pissed off a lot European leaders and NAFTA is on the rocks. There is a very real possibility that the EU, China, Japan etc. start slapping a carbon tax on products that they import from the US and in the case of Boeing that means selling their products will be a lot harder. Elon Musk and Tim Cook know this and they is why they stand by the accord, Tesla and Apple have a crap load to lose if it becomes cumbersome to export to the big markets of the world.

Regarding upgrading the grid, If there is a will there is a way. Trump wanted to put a lot into infrastructure when he was running (one thing liberals agreed with him on). Put some money into a smart grid and that project can be completed throughout north america in a decade and will creates thousands of well paying jobs.
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aviationaware
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:06 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
The renewable energy market is exploding because it was subsidized to insanity over the past 8 years.


Exactly, Germany's largest solar panel producer just went belly up because it wasn't all that sustainable after all.

StarAC17 wrote:
There is a very real possibility that the EU, China, Japan etc. start slapping a carbon tax on products that they import from the US


Good, they the US can put one on in return and show the coastal liberals firsthand how very dumb the concept of a carbon tax really is.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:33 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Good, they the US can put one on in return and show the coastal liberals firsthand how very dumb the concept of a carbon tax really is.

But...but...I thought that by withdrawing we're putting America First. So your idea is to retaliate by placing an tax on imports from other countries? I thought conservatives hated taxes? Not only that, but by making imports more expensive, wouldn't it mean that raw material and other items would force companies to downsize or raise prices? Do you mean to say that Lord Covfefe will start price controls?
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aviationaware
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:11 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
But...but...I thought that by withdrawing we're putting America First. So your idea is to retaliate by placing an tax on imports from other countries? I thought conservatives hated taxes? Not only that, but by making imports more expensive, wouldn't it mean that raw material and other items would force companies to downsize or raise prices? Do you mean to say that Lord Covfefe will start price controls?


You didn't really understand what I wrote so why did you bother answering?
 
StarAC17
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:42 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The renewable energy market is exploding because it was subsidized to insanity over the past 8 years.


Exactly, Germany's largest solar panel producer just went belly up because it wasn't all that sustainable after all.

StarAC17 wrote:
There is a very real possibility that the EU, China, Japan etc. start slapping a carbon tax on products that they import from the US


Good, they the US can put one on in return and show the coastal liberals firsthand how very dumb the concept of a carbon tax really is.


How will that work if that those parties are actually using renewable energy for production.

A carbon tax is meant to be a deterrent to use fossil fuels so if your don't use them then there is no tax. You can slap a tariff on imports all you like and that is exactly what Trump wants to do but their will be no basis for it other than that the US can .
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aviationaware
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:29 pm

The only way for renewables to take hold is for them to be more economically feasible than carbon fuels. Now, electric cars are on the path to getting there without massive subsidies (powered mainly by American industry, and no leaving the Paris Agreement can, will or wants to change that) as we speak so it can definitely be done.

The right way is not to make carbon fuels more expensive with dubious taxes. It hasn't worked in Germany where two thirds of fuel prices are taxes, and it won't work elsewhere. In fact despite the high tax burden, the German auto industry is making no efforts to switch to electric cars anytime soon. Everything they do is hedging against potential competitors like Tesla.

Just for comparison, fuel taxes in the US are only about 35% of the actual price per gallon in the most expensive state (Pennsylvania) and 20% in the nationwide average.

Yet when it comes to PEV market share, Germany and the US are about on par. So no, carbon taxes do not work. They just rob the citizens of their hard earned money (as do almost all taxes, but that's a matter for a different discussion).
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:19 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The right way is not to make carbon fuels more expensive with dubious taxes. It hasn't worked in Germany where two thirds of fuel prices are taxes, and it won't work elsewhere. ...... Just for comparison, fuel taxes in the US are only about 35% of the actual price per gallon in the most expensive state (Pennsylvania) and 20% in the nationwide average.


Wonderful example of how the muddle-headed thinking of European liberals (read socialists) works. Of course, if it wasn't a carbon tax it would be some other kind of wonderful tax.

Our USA national fuel tax should be much higher. But with the funds raised specifically for transportation (mainly roads and bridges) infrastructure. First for maintenance and then for expansion and quality improvement.

Technology is taking us away from coal and will also reduce (but not eliminate) our need for petroleum products. This is happening without severe impact on our economy and without draconian environmental regulations.

As an environmentalist/conservationist I support a wide range of laws and regulations to protect our air, land, water and biotas. We can do that in sensible ways, without the tree-huggers and the führerin hässlich imposing their nuttiness on us.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
salttee
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:46 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Our USA national fuel tax should be much higher. But with the funds raised specifically for transportation (mainly roads and bridges) infrastructure. First for maintenance and then for expansion and quality improvement.

Once again the Republican agenda is to screw the guy at the bottom. Your plan is a great deal for the rich in their expensive buggys with low profile tires and turbochargers, they don't care about something so trivial as the cost of a gallon of gas. And it's pretty much the same for the upper middle and most of the middle class, an extra buck ot two per gallon is no sweat for them.

It's the growing multitude of people on the bottom of the economic pyramid who are making minimum wage or less who carry the burden of maintaining nice roads for all those BMW drivers. But no sweat, next election just blame it on those liberals and all their regulations.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:53 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Expect red states to quickly pass legislation barring cities from setting aggressive goals or offering incentives to offset carbon emissions...because nothing says local control like a state telling the federal government to f**k off but controlling what cities vote to do. And I wouldn't be surprised if Congress got together to pass a law barring states overall from setting targets, period.


Care to explain the logic behind it. I said on the other thread, whether they believe in climate change or not, no city (red/blue/purple irrelevant) want to pollute their own backyard. Citizens won't let it happen.

When India can follow non-nuclear proliferation in principle without signing the treaty, why can't America follow Paris agreement in principle without signing a worthless pdf.

My utility company started investing in RE several years back, I used to pay a markup to participate in RE program. Once there is enough momentum they stopped charging.

They replaced old meters with smart meters and real time power consumption monitoring. I have home automation with several outlets monitoring consumption.

Grid connect solar system is one of two options I am planning to invest. Other option is a roof mounted wind turbine. Solar doesn't work through out the year, wind turbine in a suburb is also an issue. My city ordinance needs me to get approval from 2/3 neighbors to install a wind turbine. But I hope it will be relaxed soon.
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WarRI1
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:28 am

The Republicans believe in States rights, well there should be no argument from them when states follow the Paris Accords on their own. ;)
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einsteinboricua
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:01 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Expect red states to quickly pass legislation barring cities from setting aggressive goals or offering incentives to offset carbon emissions...because nothing says local control like a state telling the federal government to f**k off but controlling what cities vote to do. And I wouldn't be surprised if Congress got together to pass a law barring states overall from setting targets, period.


Care to explain the logic behind it. I said on the other thread, whether they believe in climate change or not, no city (red/blue/purple irrelevant) want to pollute their own backyard. Citizens won't let it happen.

Suffice it to say that when a city tries to increase its local minimum wage, the state goes in and says it can't be higher than the state minimum (see Iowa, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Ohio as examples), as if urban Ohio is just as economical as rural Ohio.

When a city says attempts to asserts its local control by allowing transgenders to use the bathroom of their choice and requiring stores that have the means to do so to have gender-neutral bathrooms, the capital dives in and says "no, you can't do that" (see North Carolina, for example). HB2 was a prime example of local control being usurped by the higher level: Charlotte's regulation only made it legal; the problem NC Republicans sought to prevent was complicated further: which bathroom was this FTM and this MTF supposed to use? How would you tell at first glance who was a man or a woman by birth?

When a local community reports that there's something that damages their ecosystem, the state dives in and changes the numbers so that there's nothing to report (see North Dakota). Nothing like playing with numbers: if the oil spill isn't big enough, it's not worthy of attention.

I've seen more examples of a state seeking to control its communities by banning them from doing things on their own rather than experimenting and letting them operate. So why wouldn't a state government seek to tell a local city that it can't offer tax credits/incentives or implement measures to reduce its emissions?

And what's stopping Republicans in Congress from passing legislation that allows them the chance to do so? If I'm not mistaken, they fought tooth and nail to get a law and even an amendment to ban same sex marriage. Why wouldn't they prevent California and New York from trying to meet the Paris Accords emissions goals?
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NoTime
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:10 am

treetreeseven wrote:
I'm interested to see how "conservatives," who are allegedly in favor of state and local rights versus federal control, try to spin this.


What is there to spin? If individual states and/or cities want to handicap their economy by forcing restrictions on them, they are certainly free to do so. Just as businesses are free to head to other cities if the regulations become too burdensome.

I'm all for letting states/cities decide if they want to implement this type of thing. Economic Darwinism will take care of the rest.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:36 am

salttee wrote:
It's the growing multitude of people on the bottom of the economic pyramid who are making minimum wage or less who carry the burden of maintaining nice roads for all those BMW drivers. But no sweat, next election just blame it on those liberals and all their regulations.


Ludicrous. Try coming up with actual data showing car ownership in the USA by low income people, and the actual mileage they drive.

They are mostly located in pockets of poverty and use public transit where it is available.

If the ones who do own cars lived in Europe they would be paying MUCH more for gasoline.

Our transportation systems are not paid for by low income people.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:11 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
And what's stopping Republicans in Congress from passing legislation that allows them the chance to do so? If I'm not mistaken, they fought tooth and nail to get a law and even an amendment to ban same sex marriage. Why wouldn't they prevent California and New York from trying to meet the Paris Accords emissions goals?


Well, US wasn't run by only by sprout eating, Tesla driving and green juice sipping liberals for last 200+ years. CA still able to maintain its own standards.

There are a lot more NIMBYs than gender equality activists. The shale gas thing will come back and bite us in maybe 100 years.

Sure there were isolated incidents and coverups. Why didn't Obama wave the magic wand and stop BP oil spill?
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einsteinboricua
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Why didn't Obama wave the magic wand and stop BP oil spill?

No president has the power to stop events already in motion but they can prevent future incidents. Hence his veto of the Keystone Pipeline. But hey...let's massage the metrics so that if the pipe bursts we can pretend we don't see anything and then blame "excessive regulations" as the reason for cutting corners.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Well, US wasn't run by only by sprout eating, Tesla driving and green juice sipping liberals for last 200+ years. CA still able to maintain its own standards.

Again, you still haven't answered the following:

If states at the local level can prevent cities from going beyond state baselines (minimum wage, etc.), what's stopping Congress from applying the same logic? From telling states they can't go beyond federal standards? Surely, if a state is forced to be brought up to federal standards, then it can be told to stay there and not do anything beyond it. As it's a federal standard/law, Congress has reserved the right to dictate what a state can and cannot do in that aspect.

Under other circumstances, I don't think Congress would even bother, but as these states will seek to implement the accord on their own to spite Trump, I can see congressional Republicans telling those states "not so fast. This is a federal issue; you are forbidden from going beyond what we already have" and seek to justify it by talking about the unfair advantages and jobs.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Dutchy
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:14 pm

Good to see that part of the US Government and some businesses don't want to turn its back on the rest of the world and to the problem of climate change. Good to see that some want to take responsibility for their own actions. Good to see that part of the US doesn't want to go backwards. Well done!!!!!
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:22 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Good, they the US can put one on in return and show the .


Brilliant move! Considering how dependent US manufactoring is on components and preassembled parts from China, you could just as well amputate your own feed.
And before you have wet dreams about those jobs then coming back to the US, no, since the know how and patents are in US-Chinese joint ventures. But hey, that way a lot of Trumps trillion USD won't end up propping the Chinese military up, but to make the industry more efficient.

coastal liberals firsthand how very dumb the concept of a carbon tax really is


Considering the support the Paris agreement had across political lined, the decision ain't between liberal and conservative, but between sane and insane people. Even almost half the Trump voters support the Paris agreement.

einsteinboricua wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Good, they the US can put one on in return and show the coastal liberals firsthand how very dumb the concept of a carbon tax really is.

But...but...I thought that by withdrawing we're putting America First. So your idea is to retaliate by placing an tax on imports from other countries?


He can't put costal liberals in labor camps, so his plan is to drown then and best and destroy they property at the least.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
He can't put costal liberals in labor camps, so his plan is to drown then and best and destroy they property at the least.


I have no idea what you are smoking or drinking (or worse) but it is really insane to suggest that the President is planning on drowning people.

Maybe a Führerin Hässlich might do something that crazy, but no President of the United States could or would.

Sober up, friend.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:00 am

BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
He can't put costal liberals in labor camps, so his plan is to drown then and best and destroy they property at the least.


I have no idea what you are smoking or drinking (or worse) but it is really insane to suggest that the President is planning on drowning people.


1. I wasn't talking about Trump, not sure if it is my English or your reading comprehension.
2. His Budget proposals will already kill tens of thousands US citizens per year and about a million Africans if adopted as proposed, so mass killIng obviously doesn't phase him, unless it is Russians or Assad's men.

For what I am drinking, it is Mr. Brown Coffee at the moment, 2 pm is a bit early for alcohol, and not the kool aid you seem to have way to much off.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Redd
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:29 am

aviationaware wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The renewable energy market is exploding because it was subsidized to insanity over the past 8 years.


Exactly, Germany's largest solar panel producer just went belly up because it wasn't all that sustainable after all.



The Solar panel producer went belly up due to cheap Chinese panels flooding the market with which the German manufacturer SolarWorld could not compete on pricing. Solar power is still sustainable, the sun hasn't yet imploded and the demand for solar panels hasn't slowed down. On sunny days up to 50% of power generated in Germany comes from Solar.
 
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sebolino
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:24 am

I see pathetic attempts to defend Turmp's decision, but guys wake up ! Oil will continue to be cheap and available during a few decades at best, and then it will be OVER !!! The countries which will not have taken the renewable energy turn soon enough will be in deep problems.
It's not only an ecologists/leftists fantasy, it's a real economic matter and an environmental concern in addition.
 
aviationaware
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:00 am

Redd wrote:

The Solar panel producer went belly up due to cheap Chinese panels flooding the market with which the German manufacturer SolarWorld could not compete on pricing. Solar power is still sustainable, the sun hasn't yet imploded and the demand for solar panels hasn't slowed down. On sunny days up to 50% of power generated in Germany comes from Solar.


Not exactly. It went belly up because the German subsidy model expanded very rapidly and then at the peak started to deflate again. SolarWorld didn't anticipate this and continued to expand production. You can't blame the Chinese for everything, you know. Demand for panels has slowed down in Germany, and for other markets the SolarWorld panels are just not competitive. That was clear from the beginning. Producing solar panels is very energy expensive, to think you can do that in a market that is already in full swing switching to renewables and thus having ludicrously expensive power vs. ass cheap coal China is just beyond stupid.

And as you said, on sunny days. How many of those are there in Germany? Not that many. Meanwhile, on those days power is also a lot more expensive than on rainy days. Just saying.
 
Redd
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:15 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Redd wrote:

The Solar panel producer went belly up due to cheap Chinese panels flooding the market with which the German manufacturer SolarWorld could not compete on pricing. Solar power is still sustainable, the sun hasn't yet imploded and the demand for solar panels hasn't slowed down. On sunny days up to 50% of power generated in Germany comes from Solar.


Not exactly. It went belly up because the German subsidy model expanded very rapidly and then at the peak started to deflate again. SolarWorld didn't anticipate this and continued to expand production. You can't blame the Chinese for everything, you know. Demand for panels has slowed down in Germany, and for other markets the SolarWorld panels are just not competitive. That was clear from the beginning. Producing solar panels is very energy expensive, to think you can do that in a market that is already in full swing switching to renewables and thus having ludicrously expensive power vs. ass cheap coal China is just beyond stupid.

And as you said, on sunny days. How many of those are there in Germany? Not that many. Meanwhile, on those days power is also a lot more expensive than on rainy days. Just saying.


So if we take Berlin, that is 135 sunny Deutsche days, 12 hours a day, or 37% of the year. Sounds like a good investment to me. Und I didn't blame anything on China, I just said that their ability to produce cheap, and the lack of foresight of SolarWorld was the downfall of the company.

Total annual sunshine Germany
Place Hours
Berlin 1625
Bremen 1483
Hamburg 1557
Hannover 1501
Kiel 1627
Magdeburg 1609
Potsdam 1692
Rostock 1687

Personally, I think the next big thing is the Solar Roof by Tesla. I have been wondering why no one has done this since I was about 10 years old. Finally. https://www.tesla.com/solarroof
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
He can't put costal liberals in labor camps, so his plan is to drown then and best and destroy they property at the least.


I have no idea what you are smoking or drinking (or worse) but it is really insane to suggest that the President is planning on drowning people.


1. I wasn't talking about Trump, not sure if it is my English or your reading comprehension. emphasis by BP
2. His Budget proposals will already kill tens of thousands US citizens per year and about a million Africans if adopted as proposed, so mass killIng obviously doesn't phase him, unless it is Russians or Assad's men.


Who were you possibly talking about, if not Mr. Trump? It has nothing to do with English. Only one person can fit the "He" in that sentence.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
aviationaware
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
2. His Budget proposals will already kill tens of thousands US citizens per year and about a million Africans if adopted as proposed


Love this logic approach. So according to you, are certain groups also killing millions of future people by advocating (railing, really) against stem cell research?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:00 pm

aviationaware wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
2. His Budget proposals will already kill tens of thousands US citizens per year and about a million Africans if adopted as proposed


Love this logic approach. So according to you, are certain groups also killing millions of future people by advocating (railing, really) against stem cell research?


Adopted proposals have real life consequences....... Thomas is wording it a bit too extreme for my taste, killing is active and the proposals are doing the same thing but passively. With the repeal of the health care act domestically and with walking away from the responsibilities internationally (0,3 degrees rice in global temperature, if it was up to Trump, but luckily some lower governments do take their responsibility so perhaps it will have a lower impact) with the Paris agreement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:39 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Who were you possibly talking about, if not Mr. Trump? It has nothing to do with English. Only one person can fit the "He" in that sentence.


That he would be aviationaware, the guy that want to show those costal liberals. ....

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
2. His Budget proposals will already kill tens of thousands US citizens per year and about a million Africans if adopted as proposed


Love this logic approach. So according to you, are certain groups also killing millions of future people by advocating (railing, really) against stem cell research?


Adopted proposals have real life consequences....... Thomas is wording it a bit too extreme for my taste, killing is active and the proposals are doing the same thing but passively.


And different from stem cell research, we have a pretty good idea about how many people will die over health care changes (10s of thousands per year) or cutting AIDS programs (~ a million).
When you know that and and do it anyways, that is pretty active. People responsible for workplace safety get put into jail for involuntary manslaughter over a much less direct chain of event all the time.
"Criminal negligence means a carelessness or recklessness showing a thoughtless disregard of consequences or a heedless indifference to the safety and rights of others." From here .... Trump doesn't show a care in this world and indifferent seems to be a pretty good Character definition, and the action doesn't have to be against the law to qualify. He is killing them all right.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aesma
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:29 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The right way is not to make carbon fuels more expensive with dubious taxes. It hasn't worked in Germany where two thirds of fuel prices are taxes, and it won't work elsewhere.


Fuel taxes in Europe are simply linked to the fact we have no oil, so we must not consume it stupidly by driving gigantic trucks we don't need. They have worked perfectly at doing that.

The fact that lighter vehicles damage roads less is an added bonus.

A carbon tax is sensible since the state has to fund more and more projects to mitigate the effects of global warming. That way, the polluter is the payer.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:17 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Who were you possibly talking about, if not Mr. Trump? It has nothing to do with English. Only one person can fit the "He" in that sentence.


That he would be aviationaware, the guy that want to show those costal liberals. ....


A bit of history of this thread, confirming that Tommy1808 has lied and is lying:

Aviationaware - Post # 14

Good, they the US can put one on in return and show the coastal liberals firsthand how very dumb the concept of a carbon tax really is.

Tommy1808 - Post # 30

He can't put costal liberals in labor camps, so his plan is to drown then and best and destroy they property at the least.

BobPatterson - Post # 31

I have no idea what you are smoking or drinking (or worse) but it is really insane to suggest that the President is planning on drowning people.

Tommy1808 - Post # 32

1. I wasn't talking about Trump, not sure if it is my English or your reading comprehension.

BobPatterson - Post # 37

Who were you possibly talking about, if not Mr. Trump? It has nothing to do with English. Only one person can fit the "He" in that sentence.

Tommy1808 - Post # 40

That he would be aviationaware, the guy that want to show those costal liberals. ....

------------------------------

No, Tommy, the "He" you spoke of as wanting to drown people is none other than President Trump. You know it, I know it, and you are a liar in denying it.

You wrote those words and they did not refer to Aviationaware. You own them.

Can't you be honest even just once?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:23 am

BobPatterson wrote:
No, Tommy, the "He" you spoke of as wanting to drown people is none other than President Trump. You know it, I know it, and you are a liar in denying it.


So now you are telling me what I mean by my postings to avoid saying "ok, I misunderstood"?
Even when I give you the honerable way out by just putting it on my English?
And that on top of accusing me of drug abuse..... well, I am just going to put that on your advanced age.

Best regards
Thomad
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:35 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
No, Tommy, the "He" you spoke of as wanting to drown people is none other than President Trump. You know it, I know it, and you are a liar in denying it.


So now you are telling me what I mean by my postings to avoid saying "ok, I misunderstood"?
Even when I give you the honerable way out by just putting it on my English?
And that on top of accusing me of drug abuse..... well, I am just going to put that on your advanced age.


Advanced age is sometimes helpful. It enables some people to better detect bullshit.

Remember back when you were somewhat flattered when I asked if English was your first language? Your English is perfectly OK when you are sober, and in any event you cannot hide behind "language handicap" here. "HE" referred to President Trump, and this is merely one in a very long list of outrageous statements you have made about him. In this case you accuse him "of a plan to drown people" just as you have accused him of (I'm paraphrasing you) being willing to have millions die by his "improvements" to health care legislation or executive order.

These kinds of statements are constantly and consistently Who You Are.

An ailing person who needs to seek help.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:51 am

BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
No, Tommy, the "He" you spoke of as wanting to drown people is none other than President Trump. You know it, I know it, and you are a liar in denying it.


So now you are telling me what I mean by my postings to avoid saying "ok, I misunderstood"?
Even when I give you the honerable way out by just putting it on my English?
And that on top of accusing me of drug abuse..... well, I am just going to put that on your advanced age.


Advanced age is sometimes helpful. It enables some people to better detect bullshit.


Right.. like knowing better what people mean than they themselves do. The ultimate strawman argument...

And of course that is redily obvious, as you yourself point out:

...and this is merely one in a very long list of outrageous statements you have made about him.


Obviously I have no problem saying Trump when I mean him, so I probably don't if I say I don't.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:10 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Right.. like knowing better what people mean than they themselves do. The ultimate strawman argument...


There is no straw man argument here. Your words point to one and only one person. Mr. Trump. Aviationaware can not be the subject of your accusations. He does not have a plan to drown anyone. It is you and your ilk that argue that Mr. Trump is willing to drown people by taking no action to ward of rising sea levels due to global warming.

As in numerous other threads at airliners net, (Little Caeser's Sued..... is a recent one: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1364217&start=50) you lie in the face of evidence that you are wrong in your position. You try to turn your idiotic pig's ear into an unbelievable silk purse).

Like Mr. Trump, who you rightly accuse of lying, distortion of facts or of ignoring them, and of posting absolutely false and idiotic statements, you are guilty of precisely the same things.

Your hatred of Mr. Trump is driving you to insanity. He deserves very strong criticism. He does not deserve your insane lies.

Attend to your Führerin Hässlich.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:41 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Attend to your Führerin Hässlich.


Since Obama took office it started to feel more and more like Republicanism stopped being a political position and morphed into a religion. Seems to be correct. Stop arguing like a religious fanatic.

Image

Perfect discription of you, Mr. Tend-to-your-Führerin-Hässlich-but-stop-saying-stuff-about-my-Savior-even-if-you-only-said-that-in-my-imagination.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: States, cities, companies and universities to uphold Paris accord in spite of Trump

Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:38 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Attend to your Führerin Hässlich.


Since Obama took office it started to feel more and more like Republicanism stopped being a political position and morphed into a religion. Seems to be correct. Stop arguing like a religious fanatic.

Perfect discription of you, Mr. Tend-to-your-Führerin-Hässlich-but-stop-saying-stuff-about-my-Savior-even-if-you-only-said-that-in-my-imagination.


You are just being idiotic (again). While Mr. Trump is (unfortunately) my President, he is turning out to be perhaps the worst President we have had (at least in my lifetime going back to Franklin D. Roosevelt).

I was not a member of airliners.net for most of Mr. Obama's presidency and could not post here until his last year in office. But, I was overjoyed when he was elected. I also became somewhat dismayed by his ineffectiveness in bringing the country together. And I became further disenchanted by his overuse of executive orders and his refusal to permit pipeline projects.

I have no savior, thank you. I don't suggest that your Führerin Hässlich is your savior. It would be odd to have as a savior someone who buries her snout in a beer stein.

Cheers.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.

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