Hillis
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Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:27 pm

After being in office only five months, the Current POTUS, through his policy of disengagement across the globe, has created a leadership vacuum in the world. Europe is looking to strike out on their own; Mexico is looking to South America and China to replace the U.S. as their main trading partners, and China is quickly becoming the more trusted power who will more and more shape the world.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/04/politics/ ... index.html

It isn't simply this buffoon's unpopularity, it's the daily circus that is his White House: an unprofessional, unfocused, ignorant echo chamber of lies and living in an alternate rally. It is severely hurting the long-term interests of The United States.

There are those on here who think he's like The Second Coming. But ask yourself, is your daily diet of bombast and guffaws by this Administration really what you want for The United States? Is the possibility of Mexico no longer buying U.S. corn and wheat, which would cost billions to the U.S. economy, worth it? Is seeing China-a communist nation becoming the trusted nation on Earth, really what you want? Is the fact we've gone from a stable, consistent (for the most part) voice in the world under Mr. Obama to this daily freak show really good for American interests?
 
socalgeo
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:50 pm

I'm not going to argue against the basic premise of your post - there is a big shift going on and while the US repositions it's priorities there will be changes in relationships. It is a fair statement that other nations will follow their own best interests while we follow ours. Old relationships may not be possible when theses interests don't coincide.

But consider this - the US deficit spending and trade deficit combined is about $1.6 TRILLION per year. This is what is keeping the world economy afloat. Borrowed US dollars drive the world economy. Each country will be looking for new relationships where they can find the kind of deficits they have with the US. Good luck with that. China needs to maintain an 8% to 10% growth rate just to maintain their status quo. They ain't gonna find that growth in Mexico or Brazil. They will be lucky if we allow them to maintain this with us.

As we reduce both our trade and budget deficit over the next 8 years, while at the same time producing the most oil and gas of any country on the planet most other countries are going to experience lots of changes, many will be uncomfortable. They will literally be at our mercy. Trump knows this.

Get used to it. It's gonna be a wild ride.

Cheers, and buy American!
 
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pvjin
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:02 pm

Good to hear, US influences haven't brought the world anything good since WW2. And as far as China goes, only thing communist about it is the ruling party's name, that's it. In practice China is more capitalist than the US, and unlike you they have no desire to cause chaos all around the world by starting useless wars.

Let China be the next superpower and return back to isolationism, it's better for the whole world including you.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Aesma
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:04 pm

Reduce your trade deficit, maybe possible, but history has shown you do that by selling more stuff and buying less stuff (wherever it comes from). The US "way of life" is to buy tons of unnecessary stuff, so I don't see it happening.

Reduce your budget deficit, not going to happen. A recession is coming and the deficit will be stratospheric.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seb146
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:24 pm

For a very, very long time, powers that be in the United States have insisted that fossil fuels are the wave of the future and we much have fossil fuels to be energy independent. Meanwhile, factories are closing in the United States because labor is supposedly cheaper overseas. So, open factories in this country that produce solar and wind generators and components.

Also, people don't get that crude oil prices are set by the markets and OPEC, not the United States. With "our" oil and gas being imported from Canada, we still have to pay market prices. That is: whatever price the traders in New York, London, and OPEC set, that is the price we still have to pay, whether the oil comes from Alberta tar sands or Alaska's North Slope.

For way too long, Americans have been told that what is good for multi national corporations is best for Americans. This is the result of giving to the multi national corporations. Good job.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
jetero
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:54 pm

socalgeo wrote:
As we reduce both our trade and budget deficit over the next 8 years, while at the same time producing the most oil and gas of any country on the planet most other countries are going to experience lots of changes, many will be uncomfortable. They will literally be at our mercy. Trump knows this.


Is this some sort of proposal?
 
socalgeo
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:55 pm

seb146 wrote:
For a very, very long time, powers that be in the United States have insisted that fossil fuels are the wave of the future and we much have fossil fuels to be energy independent. Meanwhile, factories are closing in the United States because labor is supposedly cheaper overseas. So, open factories in this country that produce solar and wind generators and components.

Also, people don't get that crude oil prices are set by the markets and OPEC, not the United States. With "our" oil and gas being imported from Canada, we still have to pay market prices. That is: whatever price the traders in New York, London, and OPEC set, that is the price we still have to pay, whether the oil comes from Alberta tar sands or Alaska's North Slope.

For way too long, Americans have been told that what is good for multi national corporations is best for Americans. This is the result of giving to the multi national corporations. Good job.


You must not be paying attention. The oil market is being driven by mid to large producers in the US.. OPEC is in tatters. Google is your friend. Look up the Eagle Ford, Marcellus, and the Bakken. Once US Federal lands are opened up then watch the price drop and your multinationals will be hurting.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:24 pm

socalgeo wrote:
I'm not going to argue against the basic premise of your post - there is a big shift going on and while the US repositions it's priorities there will be changes in relationships. It is a fair statement that other nations will follow their own best interests while we follow ours. Old relationships may not be possible when theses interests don't coincide.

But consider this - the US deficit spending and trade deficit combined is about $1.6 TRILLION per year. This is what is keeping the world economy afloat. Borrowed US dollars drive the world economy. Each country will be looking for new relationships where they can find the kind of deficits they have with the US. Good luck with that. China needs to maintain an 8% to 10% growth rate just to maintain their status quo. They ain't gonna find that growth in Mexico or Brazil. They will be lucky if we allow them to maintain this with us.

As we reduce both our trade and budget deficit over the next 8 years, while at the same time producing the most oil and gas of any country on the planet most other countries are going to experience lots of changes, many will be uncomfortable. They will literally be at our mercy. Trump knows this.

Get used to it. It's gonna be a wild ride.

Cheers, and buy American!


Just some random questions:
- whom is borrowing to drive the world economy? America or the rest of the world?
- China needs 7% growth to keep their population happy, certainly, they try to get the internal Chinese spending up
- How are you going to reduce the trade deficit over the next 8 years?
- How are you going to reduce the budget deficit, since the Trump administration isn't about to reduce spending (increasing defense and reducing the rest and giving the money not spend on health care to the top 1%, including Trump). And we all know that triple down economics doesn't work so the growth projections of the Trump administration aren't attainable.
- oil and gas will be on their way out, although not in the next 8 years.
- yes a lot of changes, among them, China and in general Southeast Asia, is on the rise, the West is on the decline. A shift in power, that is the trend and Trump aint going the change that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:31 pm

socalgeo wrote:
seb146 wrote:
For a very, very long time, powers that be in the United States have insisted that fossil fuels are the wave of the future and we much have fossil fuels to be energy independent. Meanwhile, factories are closing in the United States because labor is supposedly cheaper overseas. So, open factories in this country that produce solar and wind generators and components.

Also, people don't get that crude oil prices are set by the markets and OPEC, not the United States. With "our" oil and gas being imported from Canada, we still have to pay market prices. That is: whatever price the traders in New York, London, and OPEC set, that is the price we still have to pay, whether the oil comes from Alberta tar sands or Alaska's North Slope.

For way too long, Americans have been told that what is good for multi national corporations is best for Americans. This is the result of giving to the multi national corporations. Good job.


You must not be paying attention. The oil market is being driven by mid to large producers in the US.. OPEC is in tatters. Google is your friend. Look up the Eagle Ford, Marcellus, and the Bakken. Once US Federal lands are opened up then watch the price drop and your multinationals will be hurting.


Yes, because of American oil and gas production the price of fossil fuels are down, so it has an effect on the price, certainly, the effect is that OPEC hasn't been able to set prices and oil prices are set by marked forces, not by the US. But remember that Saudi Arabia has a price to extract oil of about 5 USD per barrel and the US about 50 USD per barrel.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BMI727
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:10 pm

Hillis wrote:
After being in office only five months, the Current POTUS, through his policy of disengagement across the globe, has created a leadership vacuum in the world.

I'll agree with this, but...
Hillis wrote:
Is the fact we've gone from a stable, consistent (for the most part) voice in the world under Mr. Obama to this daily freak show really good for American interests?

While Trump has screwed the pooch over and over when it comes to foreign relations what he has done is continue and intensify the mistakenly passive policy of the Obama administration. Obama was slow to react to Chinese aggression even with his pivot to the Pacific. Obama oversaw a halfhearted at best recapitalization of the military despite having been actively at war for fifteen years. Obama (like Trump) watched chemical weapons used against fighters and civilians and did nothing. Obama (like Bush) stood by while Russia invaded a European country and only docked a few guys' allowance and sent some troops to go jogging with the Estonians. Obama led the tardy and half-assed response to the rise of ISIS. Obama refused to public take a hard stance against cyberattacks.

Considering this Trump's disengagement is hardly new, he is just either more aggressively disengaged or aggressively posturing without true engagement than in the past.

Hillis wrote:
Is seeing China-a communist nation becoming the trusted nation on Earth, really what you want?

Nobody wants that because they can't be trusted and the adults know that. They need constant high growth rates and the Chinese government will manipulate things to no end to facilitate that. The whole thing is just too unstable.

seb146 wrote:
That is: whatever price the traders in New York, London, and OPEC set, that is the price we still have to pay, whether the oil comes from Alberta tar sands or Alaska's North Slope.

That is not true. There is an upper limit to the price before OPEC countries begin to see erosion due to competition. What oil the market gets from where is often a function of price.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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seb146
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:13 am

BMI727 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
That is: whatever price the traders in New York, London, and OPEC set, that is the price we still have to pay, whether the oil comes from Alberta tar sands or Alaska's North Slope.

That is not true. There is an upper limit to the price before OPEC countries begin to see erosion due to competition. What oil the market gets from where is often a function of price.


I wondered why I was so rested every time I visit this site. Good to see you back.

OPEC and oil companies also see profits decline as the price per barrel goes up because we who work and go to school can not afford to drive anywhere, so the market starts getting saturated. How much is it going to cost to extract the dirty tar sands and piping it to Texas and refining it? I would imagine it would cost more than it is worth right now.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:19 am

socalgeo wrote:
seb146 wrote:
For a very, very long time, powers that be in the United States have insisted that fossil fuels are the wave of the future and we much have fossil fuels to be energy independent. Meanwhile, factories are closing in the United States because labor is supposedly cheaper overseas. So, open factories in this country that produce solar and wind generators and components.

Also, people don't get that crude oil prices are set by the markets and OPEC, not the United States. With "our" oil and gas being imported from Canada, we still have to pay market prices. That is: whatever price the traders in New York, London, and OPEC set, that is the price we still have to pay, whether the oil comes from Alberta tar sands or Alaska's North Slope.

For way too long, Americans have been told that what is good for multi national corporations is best for Americans. This is the result of giving to the multi national corporations. Good job.


You must not be paying attention. The oil market is being driven by mid to large producers in the US.. OPEC is in tatters. Google is your friend. Look up the Eagle Ford, Marcellus, and the Bakken. Once US Federal lands are opened up then watch the price drop and your multinationals will be hurting.


And so will We The People who have to live with dirty and polluted land, air, and water just so oil companies can turn a profit. Is it really worth it for a finite resource? Add to that the millions that will be kicked off medical coverage if Republicans have their way. Cancer rates and poisonings will increase with no way for us to be covered and pay for treatment. The emergency room fixes everything, is what they say...
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:07 am

seb146 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
You must not be paying attention. The oil market is being driven by mid to large producers in the US.. OPEC is in tatters. Google is your friend. Look up the Eagle Ford, Marcellus, and the Bakken. Once US Federal lands are opened up then watch the price drop and your multinationals will be hurting.


And so will We The People who have to live with dirty and polluted land, air, and water just so oil companies can turn a profit. Is it really worth it for a finite resource? Add to that the millions that will be kicked off medical coverage if Republicans have their way. Cancer rates and poisonings will increase with no way for us to be covered and pay for treatment. The emergency room fixes everything, is what they say...


At the risk of appearing to be pedantic, may I suggest that you look into the meaning of "non sequitur"?

You keep piling on garbage when you lose arguments.

Oil companies can turn a profit only when consumers demand their products.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:18 am

socalgeo wrote:
I'm not going to argue against the basic premise of your post - there is a big shift going on and while the US repositions it's priorities there will be changes in relationships. It is a fair statement that other nations will follow their own best interests while we follow ours. Old relationships may not be possible when theses interests don't coincide.

But consider this - the US deficit spending and trade deficit combined is about $1.6 TRILLION per year. This is what is keeping the world economy afloat. Borrowed US dollars drive the world economy. Each country will be looking for new relationships where they can find the kind of deficits they have with the US. Good luck with that. China needs to maintain an 8% to 10% growth rate just to maintain their status quo. They ain't gonna find that growth in Mexico or Brazil. They will be lucky if we allow them to maintain this with us.

As we reduce both our trade and budget deficit over the next 8 years, while at the same time producing the most oil and gas of any country on the planet most other countries are going to experience lots of changes, many will be uncomfortable. They will literally be at our mercy. Trump knows this.

Get used to it. It's gonna be a wild ride.

Cheers, and buy American!


Cute theory.

Misses one bit of reality though. Freer trade benefits consumers. The vast majority of voters are consumers. When prices start going up because products can't be sourced from elsewhere (ie Buy American), businesses will pass costs to consumers. And that will spill over into votes/Congress etc.

The biggest obstacle to your hypothetical realignment is the American consumer. If they had the stomach to pay more for American goods they would have done so by now.

If you believe Americans are going to tolerate the loss of wealth that inevitably follows when something that cost $2 now costs $5, well, good luck. The problem isn't China or Mexico. Never was. The problem is the American who chooses to buy their products over American-made products. Will they be willing to become relatively poorer to support someone else? (Isn't that the fundamental tenet of socialism?)
 
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seb146
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:53 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
You must not be paying attention. The oil market is being driven by mid to large producers in the US.. OPEC is in tatters. Google is your friend. Look up the Eagle Ford, Marcellus, and the Bakken. Once US Federal lands are opened up then watch the price drop and your multinationals will be hurting.


And so will We The People who have to live with dirty and polluted land, air, and water just so oil companies can turn a profit. Is it really worth it for a finite resource? Add to that the millions that will be kicked off medical coverage if Republicans have their way. Cancer rates and poisonings will increase with no way for us to be covered and pay for treatment. The emergency room fixes everything, is what they say...


At the risk of appearing to be pedantic, may I suggest that you look into the meaning of "non sequitur"?

You keep piling on garbage when you lose arguments.

Oil companies can turn a profit only when consumers demand their products.


What are you talking about?

Oil companies bought the government so they can drill wherever they damn well please, piping oil wherever they damn well please. Those pipes leak into our drinking water. What is so hard to understand about that? All because the oil companies insist that their product is the only one worth pursuing.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:00 am

I think most Trump supporters would be willing to pay any price and bear any burden for the country.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:32 am

seahawk wrote:
I think most Trump supporters would be willing to pay any price and bear any burden for the country.


Wich is why they haven´t bought anything that wasn´t "made in the US" in the last decade or so, leading to drastic fall in imports into the US. ....

They probably haven´t made the connection between "Import = cheaper" yet. After all, we talk about the folks that where not bright enough to realize that Obamacare and the ACA are the same thing.

Hillis wrote:
Is the fact we've gone from a stable, consistent (for the most part) voice in the world under Mr. Obama to this daily freak show really good for American interests?


You have been left behind by a lot of the world a long time before that...

Death Penalty: One of the last remaining 58 nations on this planet, being left behind even by the republic of Congo
Female head of state: even lagging behind Muslim countries, that hate women so much.....
Paid maternity leave: among the very, very least

and so on, and so forth...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
socalgeo
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:50 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
You must not be paying attention. The oil market is being driven by mid to large producers in the US.. OPEC is in tatters. Google is your friend. Look up the Eagle Ford, Marcellus, and the Bakken. Once US Federal lands are opened up then watch the price drop and your multinationals will be hurting.


And so will We The People who have to live with dirty and polluted land, air, and water just so oil companies can turn a profit. Is it really worth it for a finite resource? Add to that the millions that will be kicked off medical coverage if Republicans have their way. Cancer rates and poisonings will increase with no way for us to be covered and pay for treatment. The emergency room fixes everything, is what they say...


At the risk of appearing to be pedantic, may I suggest that you look into the meaning of "non sequitur"?

You keep piling on garbage when you lose arguments.

Oil companies can turn a profit only when consumers demand their products.


http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/reuters- ... tlook.html
 
tommy1808
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:00 am

socalgeo wrote:
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/reuters-america-global-oil-demand-to-grow-into-2040s--bp-outlook.html


Exacty. Oil and Gas business is done and has no growth potential anymore. Considering inflation turnover in those business is going to remain fairly constant, if not dropping, since ever cheaper fracking technology makes serious oversupply with cheap prices following possible. But if the US wants to supply the world with energy at marginal prices, be our guest. Renewable however grow by more that 7% annually.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seahawk
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:07 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I think most Trump supporters would be willing to pay any price and bear any burden for the country.


Wich is why they haven´t bought anything that wasn´t "made in the US" in the last decade or so, leading to drastic fall in imports into the US. ....

They probably haven´t made the connection between "Import = cheaper" yet. After all, we talk about the folks that where not bright enough to realize that Obamacare and the ACA are the same thing.as


I am sure they bought more products made in the USA than any leftist liberal snowflake.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:49 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
You have been left behind by a lot of the world a long time before that...

Death Penalty: One of the last remaining 58 nations on this planet, being left behind even by the republic of Congo
Female head of state: even lagging behind Muslim countries, that hate women so much.....
Paid maternity leave: among the very, very least

and so on, and so forth...

There might be some interesting things in "and so on, and so forth".

But I disagree on the three items you listed, and for good reason. You needn't agree with my reasons.

If the death penalty is merited for heinous acts, execute the sumbitch. After thorough, stringent review by a national tribunal.

When excellent people run for office, male or female, they tend to get elected. When intelligent, qualified women, manage to survive the party nomination process, the odds for them are good. Hasn't happened yet in the case of President because our single test of this hypothesis was by a person who did not engender great trust, blew opportunities, and was weighted down by too much adverse baggage.

Maternity leave (beyond a very short term) is a good idea to be funded by the nation through general taxation. It should not be a burden placed on individual businesses.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:28 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
When excellent people run for office, male or female, they tend to get elected.

The definition of excellence is in the eye of the beholder. Consider, for example, Missouri's Senate race. Are you saying that Jason Kander lost because he wasn't excellent, despite him having a similar career to Sen. Blunt? Being elected from a single part of the state is completely different than being elected statewide. And we can all agree that someone who is a war veteran is a far more qualified candidate than someone who isn't.

No, Bob. I'm afraid I'll disagree with this. Someone may have the best resume, the most charisma, and the best intentions, but party loyalties and discontent will win at the end of the day. A prime example of this is West Virginia during the Democratic primary, where Democrats voted for Sanders despite him having a far more extreme platform against fossil fuels than Clinton. Not saying Clinton was awful, but voters there clearly voted against (not FOR) a candidate.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
jetero
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:22 pm

seahawk wrote:
I am sure they bought more products made in the USA than any leftist liberal snowflake.


Ha! Just because you want it to be true?

I'm sure the ratios are actually quite similar. If anything, "leftist liberal snowflakes" are the ones who go out of their way to buy local.

Wait, maybe because Bubba is more likely to drive an F150 than a sedan, you may have a coincidental point.
 
jetero
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:23 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/reuters-america-global-oil-demand-to-grow-into-2040s--bp-outlook.html


Exacty. Oil and Gas business is done and has no growth potential anymore. Considering inflation turnover in those business is going to remain fairly constant, if not dropping, since ever cheaper fracking technology makes serious oversupply with cheap prices following possible. But if the US wants to supply the world with energy at marginal prices, be our guest. Renewable however grow by more that 7% annually.

best regards
Thomas


He obviously only has the capacity to read headlines and not the fine print. Color me surprised.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:10 pm

Hillis wrote:
After being in office only five months, the Current POTUS, through his policy of disengagement across the globe, has created a leadership vacuum in the world.

There might have been a vacuum, but Merkel and Macron have been quick to step up and fill it.

pvjin wrote:
Good to hear, US influences haven't brought the world anything good since WW2.

I disagree. It's very important for the world's premier superpower to be a democracy and a free-market economy.

pvjin wrote:
And as far as China goes, only thing communist about it is the ruling party's name, that's it. In practice China is more capitalist than the US,


:checkmark:
First to fly the 787-9
 
Hillis
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:47 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think most Trump supporters would be willing to pay any price and bear any burden for the country.


Even destroying it? Because that's what this form of Fascism will do to us.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:11 am

seahawk wrote:
I think most Trump supporters would be willing to pay any price and bear any burden for the country.


How about the burdens of honesty and honor? Are Trump supporters willing to demand that he be honest all the time?

Consider his defamation of Mika Brzezinski. Several examples of gross dishonesty there.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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seb146
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:18 am

Another thing that really gets me is Republicans use the same tired talking point that America must be energy independent, so we must drill baby drill and pollute, environment be damned because that is our oil and gas. But what Republicans fail to tell their voters is that "our" oil always always always ends up on the open market going to places like China, India, Russia, Mexico and only stays here because oil and gas companies get money for us to use our products.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:46 am

seb146 wrote:
Another thing that really gets me is Republicans use the same tired talking point that America must be energy independent, so we must drill baby drill and pollute, environment be damned because that is our oil and gas. But what Republicans fail to tell their voters is that "our" oil always always always ends up on the open market going to places like China, India, Russia, Mexico and only stays here because oil and gas companies get money for us to use our products.

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, in 2016 the USA imported and exported the following (billions of barrels) of petroleum products:

Imports:. 2,883,117,000 barrels

Exports: 1,898,701,000 barrels

What difference does it make whether our exports are from crude that is imported into the USA or from crude that is extracted here?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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seb146
Posts: 20742
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:57 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Another thing that really gets me is Republicans use the same tired talking point that America must be energy independent, so we must drill baby drill and pollute, environment be damned because that is our oil and gas. But what Republicans fail to tell their voters is that "our" oil always always always ends up on the open market going to places like China, India, Russia, Mexico and only stays here because oil and gas companies get money for us to use our products.

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, in 2016 the USA imported and exported the following (billions of barrels) of petroleum products:

Imports:. 2,883,117,000 barrels

Exports: 1,898,701,000 barrels

What difference does it make whether our exports are from crude that is imported into the USA or from crude that is extracted here?


Republicans keep duping their base into thinking that "our" oil that "we" extract from the ground stays in the United States and is not subject to things like the open market or OPEC embargoes or what the private oil and gas industry wants to charge.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:33 am

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Another thing that really gets me is Republicans use the same tired talking point that America must be energy independent, so we must drill baby drill and pollute, environment be damned because that is our oil and gas. But what Republicans fail to tell their voters is that "our" oil always always always ends up on the open market going to places like China, India, Russia, Mexico and only stays here because oil and gas companies get money for us to use our products.

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, in 2016 the USA imported and exported the following (billions of barrels) of petroleum products:

Imports:. 2,883,117,000 barrels

Exports: 1,898,701,000 barrels

What difference does it make whether our exports are from crude that is imported into the USA or from crude that is extracted here?


Republicans keep duping their base into thinking that "our" oil that "we" extract from the ground stays in the United States and is not subject to things like the open market or OPEC embargoes or what the private oil and gas industry wants to charge.


So what IF that is true? Any evidence that it is true?

What matter does it make about what anyone, Republican or Democrat, understands about the fungibility of oil?

What is your POINT?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 8741
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:20 am

jetero wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I am sure they bought more products made in the USA than any leftist liberal snowflake.


Ha! Just because you want it to be true?

I'm sure the ratios are actually quite similar. If anything, "leftist liberal snowflakes" are the ones who go out of their way to buy local.

Wait, maybe because Bubba is more likely to drive an F150 than a sedan, you may have a coincidental point.


That is what I mean. If the American version of such people is similar to the European version, I would believe that they will be careful to buy American at least with expensive products which they see as important for their social status.
 
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seb146
Posts: 20742
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:36 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, in 2016 the USA imported and exported the following (billions of barrels) of petroleum products:

Imports:. 2,883,117,000 barrels

Exports: 1,898,701,000 barrels

What difference does it make whether our exports are from crude that is imported into the USA or from crude that is extracted here?


Republicans keep duping their base into thinking that "our" oil that "we" extract from the ground stays in the United States and is not subject to things like the open market or OPEC embargoes or what the private oil and gas industry wants to charge.


So what IF that is true? Any evidence that it is true?

What matter does it make about what anyone, Republican or Democrat, understands about the fungibility of oil?

What is your POINT?


First off: "Both sides do it" is the worst excuse ever. EVER. It is simply justifying bad behavior and allowing "your" side to get away with things and to ease your conscience so you can feel superior to "them." I suppose that Democrats can rig an election with China's help because "both sides do it" and that will make the current Russian scandal legal and alright.

Second: Read. What. I. Wrote. Republicans keep this silly "it is our oil" nonsense going that just makes their base (you) think and believe it is really something good and truthful. Do you honestly believe that "our" oil taken from the Bakken will stay 100% completely in the United States? Or "our" oil taken from the North Slope of Alaska will stay 100% completely in the United States? Or even coal, for that matter or natural gas? Do you honestly believe that? Because "your" party tells you that?

If you honestly believe that, I have some beachfront property in Colorado you should look at.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11849
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:59 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
You must not be paying attention. The oil market is being driven by mid to large producers in the US.. OPEC is in tatters. Google is your friend. Look up the Eagle Ford, Marcellus, and the Bakken. Once US Federal lands are opened up then watch the price drop and your multinationals will be hurting.


And so will We The People who have to live with dirty and polluted land, air, and water just so oil companies can turn a profit. Is it really worth it for a finite resource? Add to that the millions that will be kicked off medical coverage if Republicans have their way. Cancer rates and poisonings will increase with no way for us to be covered and pay for treatment. The emergency room fixes everything, is what they say...


At the risk of appearing to be pedantic, may I suggest that you look into the meaning of "non sequitur"?

You keep piling on garbage when you lose arguments.

Oil companies can turn a profit only when consumers demand their products.


And when they don't have to pay for the environmental damage they cause.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:04 am

seahawk wrote:
jetero wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I am sure they bought more products made in the USA than any leftist liberal snowflake.


Ha! Just because you want it to be true?

I'm sure the ratios are actually quite similar. If anything, "leftist liberal snowflakes" are the ones who go out of their way to buy local.

Wait, maybe because Bubba is more likely to drive an F150 than a sedan, you may have a coincidental point.


That is what I mean. If the American version of such people is similar to the European version, I would believe that they will be careful to buy American at least with expensive products which they see as important for their social status.


German luxury cars are popular both among higher and lower classes. Granted, the lower classes are more likely to buy used.

Do buyers check if they are made in USA or not ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:47 am

Aesma wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And so will We The People who have to live with dirty and polluted land, air, and water just so oil companies can turn a profit. Is it really worth it for a finite resource? Add to that the millions that will be kicked off medical coverage if Republicans have their way. Cancer rates and poisonings will increase with no way for us to be covered and pay for treatment. The emergency room fixes everything, is what they say...


At the risk of appearing to be pedantic, may I suggest that you look into the meaning of "non sequitur"?

You keep piling on garbage when you lose arguments.

Oil companies can turn a profit only when consumers demand their products.


And when they don't have to pay for the environmental damage they cause.


Grasshoper economics.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1538
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:39 pm

Aesma wrote:
seahawk wrote:
jetero wrote:

Ha! Just because you want it to be true?

I'm sure the ratios are actually quite similar. If anything, "leftist liberal snowflakes" are the ones who go out of their way to buy local.

Wait, maybe because Bubba is more likely to drive an F150 than a sedan, you may have a coincidental point.


That is what I mean. If the American version of such people is similar to the European version, I would believe that they will be careful to buy American at least with expensive products which they see as important for their social status.


German luxury cars are popular both among higher and lower classes. Granted, the lower classes are more likely to buy used.

Do buyers check if they are made in USA or not ?
What does buy American even mean? The two most "made in the USA cars" are the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ca ... /86510052/
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12256
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:06 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think most Trump supporters would be willing to pay any price and bear any burden for the country.


I thought most Trump supporters were white people from rust belt towns and trailer parks, people who can't affort to buy anthing and haven't been able to for decades, they're aren't the people who will spend the US to prosperity.
 
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seb146
Posts: 20742
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I think most Trump supporters would be willing to pay any price and bear any burden for the country.


I thought most Trump supporters were white people from rust belt towns and trailer parks, people who can't affort to buy anthing and haven't been able to for decades, they're aren't the people who will spend the US to prosperity.


That is exactly right. According to Trump and his base, the Blacks, gays, and Muslims have made this country into a cesspool of despair what with jobs and lower cost health care and people worshiping as they please. "Make America Great Again" simply means the United States needs to stop this nonsense thinking that "all Americans are created equal" and focus on the longest suffering group of all who has never had anything: Whites.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Grasshoper economics.

Inanity.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Republicans keep duping their base into thinking that "our" oil that "we" extract from the ground stays in the United States and is not subject to things like the open market or OPEC embargoes or what the private oil and gas industry wants to charge.


So what IF that is true? Any evidence that it is true?

What matter does it make about what anyone, Republican or Democrat, understands about the fungibility of oil?

What is your POINT?


First off: "Both sides do it" is the worst excuse ever. EVER. It is simply justifying bad behavior and allowing "your" side to get away with things and to ease your conscience so you can feel superior to "them." I suppose that Democrats can rig an election with China's help because "both sides do it" and that will make the current Russian scandal legal and alright.

Second: Read. What. I. Wrote. Republicans keep this silly "it is our oil" nonsense going that just makes their base (you) think and believe it is really something good and truthful. Do you honestly believe that "our" oil taken from the Bakken will stay 100% completely in the United States? Or "our" oil taken from the North Slope of Alaska will stay 100% completely in the United States? Or even coal, for that matter or natural gas? Do you honestly believe that? Because "your" party tells you that?

If you honestly believe that, I have some beachfront property in Colorado you should look at.

If you will not stop, even for a moment, to THINK, there is no sense in trying to talk to you. You refuse to lern about non sequiturs. Democrats, China and election rigging have nothing to do with this. Stop feeding on garbage.

The subject is imports and exports, and whether petroleum products originating in the Unites States remain (are consumed) in the United States.

You seem to think that it is a bad idea that we engage in exports.

Should all of our wheat remain in the United States? How about goods that we manufacture from local resources?

And please don't consider me to be part of a Republican base. You would do well to restrict yourself to facts.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:01 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:

So what IF that is true? Any evidence that it is true?

What matter does it make about what anyone, Republican or Democrat, understands about the fungibility of oil?

What is your POINT?


First off: "Both sides do it" is the worst excuse ever. EVER. It is simply justifying bad behavior and allowing "your" side to get away with things and to ease your conscience so you can feel superior to "them." I suppose that Democrats can rig an election with China's help because "both sides do it" and that will make the current Russian scandal legal and alright.

Second: Read. What. I. Wrote. Republicans keep this silly "it is our oil" nonsense going that just makes their base (you) think and believe it is really something good and truthful. Do you honestly believe that "our" oil taken from the Bakken will stay 100% completely in the United States? Or "our" oil taken from the North Slope of Alaska will stay 100% completely in the United States? Or even coal, for that matter or natural gas? Do you honestly believe that? Because "your" party tells you that?

If you honestly believe that, I have some beachfront property in Colorado you should look at.

If you will not stop, even for a moment, to THINK, there is no sense in trying to talk to you. You refuse to lern about non sequiturs. Democrats, China and election rigging have nothing to do with this. Stop feeding on garbage.

The subject is imports and exports, and whether petroleum products originating in the Unites States remain (are consumed) in the United States.

You seem to think that it is a bad idea that we engage in exports.

Should all of our wheat remain in the United States? How about goods that we manufacture from local resources?

And please don't consider me to be part of a Republican base. You would do well to restrict yourself to facts.


Oh Bob, you must be sooooooo lonely on your mountain of rightfulness.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Oh Bob, you must be sooooooo lonely on your mountain of rightfulness.....

Not at all. The number of us who search after truth is quite large.

You should dispense with foolish postings such as this one and come join us.

But you will have to give up twisting facts to suit your personal agenda.

And stop crying when others demand moral conduct from you.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:20 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Oh Bob, you must be sooooooo lonely on your mountain of rightfulness.....

Not at all. The number of us who search after truth is quite large.

You should dispense with foolish postings such as this one and come join us.

But you will have to give up twisting facts to suit your personal agenda.

And stop crying when others demand moral conduct from you.


Ohhhhh, Bob, you are sooo amusing without even knowing it :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:54 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Death Penalty: One of the last remaining 58 nations on this planet, being left behind even by the republic of Congo
Thomas


Yet countries such as Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan still use capital punishment. They are hardly backward places are they?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:09 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Death Penalty: One of the last remaining 58 nations on this planet, being left behind even by the republic of Congo
Thomas


Yet countries such as Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan still use capital punishment. They are hardly backward places are they?


They are in this aspect.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 13119
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:15 am

Me thinks that reports of our demise have been greatly exaggerated. :box: ;)
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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seb146
Posts: 20742
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:05 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:

So what IF that is true? Any evidence that it is true?

What matter does it make about what anyone, Republican or Democrat, understands about the fungibility of oil?

What is your POINT?


First off: "Both sides do it" is the worst excuse ever. EVER. It is simply justifying bad behavior and allowing "your" side to get away with things and to ease your conscience so you can feel superior to "them." I suppose that Democrats can rig an election with China's help because "both sides do it" and that will make the current Russian scandal legal and alright.

Second: Read. What. I. Wrote. Republicans keep this silly "it is our oil" nonsense going that just makes their base (you) think and believe it is really something good and truthful. Do you honestly believe that "our" oil taken from the Bakken will stay 100% completely in the United States? Or "our" oil taken from the North Slope of Alaska will stay 100% completely in the United States? Or even coal, for that matter or natural gas? Do you honestly believe that? Because "your" party tells you that?

If you honestly believe that, I have some beachfront property in Colorado you should look at.

If you will not stop, even for a moment, to THINK, there is no sense in trying to talk to you. You refuse to lern about non sequiturs. Democrats, China and election rigging have nothing to do with this. Stop feeding on garbage.

The subject is imports and exports, and whether petroleum products originating in the Unites States remain (are consumed) in the United States.

You seem to think that it is a bad idea that we engage in exports.

Should all of our wheat remain in the United States? How about goods that we manufacture from local resources?

And please don't consider me to be part of a Republican base. You would do well to restrict yourself to facts.


Every single one of your posts is exactly what the Republican talking points are. If you would just go back and read them and think about your posts, you would see that.

See? I can be condescending, too.

As far as exports, there is nothing wrong with that. You have stopped reading and are cheering because you think I now agree with you 100%. If you have read this far, congratulations. Keep reading. The problem with exports is Republicans us it as a talking point to get people to vote for them. People who know nothing about economics. I am not an expert, but I do know that oil extracted in the United States does not stay completely in the United States, nor does it stay in the United States for free as Republicans would have you believe. This is what they want their base to believe "energy independence" is. Isolationist policies are not good for us. Especially with a finite resource like fossil fuel.

That is the other part of this that Republicans refuse to talk about: environmental health. Extracting gas and oil is bad for the earth and bad for humans. People in Coal Country can light water coming out of their taps on fire because of fracking. There have been thousands of earthquakes in Oklahoma because of fracking. Oil pipes leak and poison water. They just had one leak for in Michigan that they did nothing about. They moved DAPL away from Bismark onto Native Reservation Land because of fear of a rupture. And it did rupture down the line.

Explain to me, keeping all that in mind, why focusing on oil and gas and not wind, solar, and bio is the only good thing? If you are still reading this....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LOT767301ER
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:14 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:16 am

cledaybuck wrote:
Aesma wrote:
seahawk wrote:

That is what I mean. If the American version of such people is similar to the European version, I would believe that they will be careful to buy American at least with expensive products which they see as important for their social status.


German luxury cars are popular both among higher and lower classes. Granted, the lower classes are more likely to buy used.

Do buyers check if they are made in USA or not ?
What does buy American even mean? The two most "made in the USA cars" are the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ca ... /86510052/


Clue me in on something. Do you actually believe that people who know anything about this subject will believe a USA Today article that is written for the masses by someone who has little knowledge about they're talking about? The majority on here probably will because anyone who actually knew 2 snots about cars on here for the most part left so all we have is this kind of garbage being posted.

Since you have some free time because surely you just wasted some of it reading that USA Today article you might as well go and educate yourself on the most comprehensive research that has been done in this field that takes into account R&D, Labor, peripheral parts supply etc. It dissects things included in the BS PR pieces like the one you posted which take US and Canadian parts and label the latter domestic while allowing rounding errors up to 30% to fall into that figure. So while some of what you say is true, in no shape, way or form is any Honda or Toyota in the top 5 nor 6 or 7 of a true domestic car. The Accord for example has less total domestic content for this MY than last years and has fallen out of the Top 10.

In case you have absolutely no idea what I am still talking about and you cant find page 2 of your google results that finally gets to real research and not hit pieces - let me make it easy for you - http://www.american.edu/kogod/research/autoindex/index.cfm
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Rest Of World Leaving The U.S. Behind

Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:15 am

seb146 wrote:
Every single one of your posts is exactly what the Republican talking points are. If you would just go back and read them and think about your posts, you would see that.

Not true. You may claim it to be true, but it is not.

seb146 wrote:
The problem with exports is Republicans us it as a talking point to get people to vote for them.

So do Democrats. Should only one party talk about trade policies to their benefit?

seb146 wrote:
Extracting gas and oil is bad for the earth and bad for humans.

Explain to me..... why focusing on oil and gas and not wind, solar, and bio is the only good thing?


What powers your car and heats your home?

What party brought us the E.P.A.?

Plenty of Republicans support green energy. Wind and Solar anyway. Biofuels at present are nothing but a tax drain.

Republican states and wind power: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/clim ... tates.html

Pew Charitable Trust Survey: Support for Green Energy - http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/10/04/p ... ssil-fuels

Thanks for making an effort to respond properly. It was an improvement.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.

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