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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:48 am

Dano1977 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
We reject the €100 billion bill.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08 ... dismantle/

I would like to see a breakdown of this bill.

What obligations we have under current treaties and directives


So they reject the EU methodology but refuse to put forward a their own.... basically the UK say they don't have any post-Brexit obligations.

That's fine, as long as they don't want much from the post-Brexit trade deal.


The demand apparently came on 4 sheets of A4 paper. - I had more paperwork when I bought my house, and that didn't cost €100 billion - the paperwork filled two lever arch files.


Ah well, the bank bailout in 2008 in the US came on 1 A4 paper and was more. So apparently you proved that the more you ask, the less you have to put to paper. Well done!
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:51 am

Dano1977 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
We reject the €100 billion bill.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08 ... dismantle/

I would like to see a breakdown of this bill.

What obligations we have under current treaties and directives


So they reject the EU methodology but refuse to put forward a their own.... basically the UK say they don't have any post-Brexit obligations.

That's fine, as long as they don't want much from the post-Brexit trade deal.


The demand apparently came on 4 sheets of A4 paper. - I had more paperwork when I bought my house, and that didn't cost €100 billion - the paperwork filled two lever arch files.


I don't think the bank needs to produce the whole mortgage every time they take your monthly payment. Other than "remember you still owe us X thousand pounds", that is.
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:28 am

How many A 4 do you need to write: the uK has commitments it must pay them ?
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:09 am

I am lost on this one, the EU has been claiming that the UK position papers and negotiating stances are not ready for prime time, look at the name of this thread, so they had someone go through the EU demands for 100billion line by line and the EU are flabbergasted.
If all and sundry say the UK has a commitment, why is it so difficult to list and make public, the EU wants the ECJ for trade and rights of EU citizens but cannot have the ECJ define the UK commitment?
What gives?
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:15 am

I just don't get what you miss. The UK got that paper, nothing forbid them to publish it if they wish....
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:16 am

par13del wrote:
I am lost on this one, the EU has been claiming that the UK position papers and negotiating stances are not ready for prime time, look at the name of this thread, so they had someone go through the EU demands for 100billion line by line and the EU are flabbergasted.


Flabbergasted is the word. Not that they want to push the bill down, which is to be expected in a negotiation, but rather that they haven't sent their own proposal.

It's easier to make a compromise of both parties bring their position and each worm their way to a middle ground. Davis' route seems to be "that doesn't work for us, try again on the next round".
 
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:19 am

And schooled by the Brits. Fantastic kick in the nuts for the EU.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:45 am

Dano1977 wrote:
The demand apparently came on 4 sheets of A4 paper. - I had more paperwork when I bought my house, and that didn't cost €100 billion - the paperwork filled two lever arch files.


There is no financial obligation that doesn't fit on one sheet. Balance sheets don't need small print like contracts.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:45 am

JJJ wrote:
It's easier to make a compromise of both parties bring their position and each worm their way to a middle ground. Davis' route seems to be "that doesn't work for us, try again on the next round".

It may be, but the EU position so far has been that the UK is unprepared, the EU delivers a position paper on one of their key critical start items - divorce bill - which they have been beating the UK over the head with and when the UK finally responds to the document they rebut it line for line into next to nothing. Being prepared is not just about having papers as seen in the famous picture at the negotiating table, it should also be about having papers that contain credible data.
I mean the EU chief negotiators are all over the news talking about the UK government position papers do not meet their criteria and is not up to snuff, based on the article, it appears as if the EU divorce paper work is in the same class and category.
My reason for getting the ECJ involved is because there seems to be a thought that there is no legal basis for the divorce bill, if that is the UK position, does anyone really expect the UK to come up with a third counter offer - the first is the rebuttal - which is to define what their legal obligation is, if it exist, it should already be defined in some legal document.

If we are talking about a moral obligation, let's have everyone state that up front, if we are talking about a fund to purchase trade rights, let's also say that up front.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:36 pm

par13del wrote:
If we are talking about a moral obligation, let's have everyone state that up front, if we are talking about a fund to purchase trade rights, let's also say that up front.


...or we could state up front if sides are credible negotiating partners at all. If a government can just decide to drop obligation whenever it pleases them, they can not be expected to honor future agreements. No point having a trade agreement if the UK government can decide to drop that whenever it pleases them, leaving EU based companies that invested based on said trade agreement holding the bag.

Pretty much: "You want a trade agreement? Great, we too. But lets see if your commitments are worth the ink on the contract, or worth 60 to 100 billion EUR if push comes to shove."

best regards
Thomas
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:00 pm

Extract from press conference from the Guardian:

Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, claimed that Britain was making demands relating to single market access that were “simply impossible”. In his opening remarks he said:

The UK decided to leave the European Union.

The UK government decided to leave the single market and the customs union.

We respect this sovereign decision.

But one thing is clear: The single market, the EU capacity to regulate, to supervise, to enforce our laws, must not and will not be undermined by Brexit.

The UK strongly contributed to the development of our single market which is the foundation of the EU. It understands well, very well, how it works.

The European council guidelines state that the Union will preserve its autonomy of decision-making.

The UK wants to take back control, it wants to adopt its own standards and regulations.

But it also wants to have these standards recognised automatically in the EU. That is what UK papers ask for.

This is simply impossible. You cannot be outside the single market and shape its legal order.

He repeated the point during the Q&A, accusing the British government of “nostalgia”. He said:

When I read some of the papers that David has sent me on behalf of the British government, in some proposals I see a sort of nostalgia in the form of specific requests which would amount to continuing to enjoy the benefits of the single market and EU membership without actually being part of it. Maybe I’ve got the wrong end of the stick. Maybe there is no nostaglia. But, as I said earlier, Brexit means Brexit. Leaving the single market means leaving the single market. If that is what has been decided, there will be consequences.

David Davis, the Brexit secretary, responded to this point by saying it was wrong to mistake belief in the free market for nostalgia.

Barnier said there was no “decisive progress” on the key issue in this week’s talks.

We did not get any decisive progress on any of the principal subjects.

Barnier strongly hinted that, given the current rate of progress, he would not be advising EU leaders to let the talks move on to phase two in October. Currently the talks focus on withdrawal issues, but the UK wants the talks to move to phase two, covering the future trade relationship, as soon as possible. The EU says it will agree this when sufficient progress has been made on withdrawal issues (citizens’ rights, Ireland and the “Brexit bill”) and it had been hoped that this would happen in October. Barnier said:

At the current state of progress we are quite far from being able to say that sufficient progress has taken place, sufficient for me to be able to recommend to the European Council that it engage in discussions on the future relationship between the UK and EU at the same time as we would, during the course of 2018, go on working on finalising the exit and withdrawal agreement.

Barnier claimed that this week’s talks showed that the UK did not feel legally obliged to honour its legal finacial obligations after Brexit. In his opening remarks he said:

EU taxpayers should not pay at 27 for the obligations undertaken at 28. This would not be fair.

In July, the UK recognised that it has obligations beyond the Brexit date.

But this week the UK explained that these obligations will be limited to their last payment to the EU budget before departure.

Yet we have joint obligations towards third countries. For example:

We have guaranteed long-term loans to Ukraine, together.

We jointly support development in Africa, the Caribbean and Pacific countries through the European development fund.

After this week, it is clear that the UK does not feel legally obliged to honour these obligations after departure.

We have also jointly committed to support innovative enterprises and green infrastructure in European regions until 2020. These are not recognised by the UK as legal obligations.

With such uncertainty, how can we build trust and start discussing a future relationship?

Davis said the UK had a “very different legal stance” on the issue of financial obligations. And, although the UK would pay what it owed, the government had an obligation to taxpayers to challenge what the EU was demanding, he said.

The commission has set out its position and we have a duty to our taxpayers to interrogate it rigorously. At this round we presented our legal analysis, on on-budget issues, on off-budget issues, and on the EIB - European Investment Bank. It’s fair to say across the piece we have a very different legal stance, but as we said in the article 50 letter the settlement should be in accordance with law and in the spirit of the UK’s continuing partnership with the EU.

Davis also said, during the Q&A, that Britain was a country that met its obligations but that “those obligations have got to be well specified, they’ve got to be real.”

Davis also said the UK would acknowledge its moral obligations, as well as its legal obligations, when agreeing what to pay the EU. Talking about the obligations the UK would meet, he said:

They don’t necessarily have to be legal. We also recognise moral obligations sometimes.

Barnier said he was willing to speed up the pace of talks if necessary. He said:

Time is flying, it is passing very quickly, if we need to, we on our side, on behalf of the 27, are prepared on behalf of the EU institutions to step up and intensify the rhythm of the negotiations.


I knew that Uk was playing dumb but I did not imagine they could dare to ask that their new regulations to be automatically adopted by the EU....

Barnier said the UK demands relating to access to the single market were “impossible”. The UK wanted to leave the single market and customs union, he said. But it also wanted its standards automatically recognised by the EU. That was unrealistic, he said. He said the single market “must not and will not be undermined Brexit”.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:54 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
...or we could state up front if sides are credible negotiating partners at all. If a government can just decide to drop obligation whenever it pleases them, they can not be expected to honor future agreements.
best regards
Thomas

Now I think I understand this trend of thought, it is your belief that the government of the UK elected to leave the EU, so they are dropping the obligations on a whim and fancy.
I can accept the mindset of some that the UK government is to blame because they should have never given the people a vote on the issue, unfortunately, that is not how the UK system of government works, at times the people do get the chance to vote, and in this case, they elected to leave the EU so the UK government has no choice but to honor the vote. All the stalling that is taking place now is from those who do not want to leave and still have influence over the government and its minions.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:02 pm

A couple things are confusing in the statement:
"The UK decided to leave the European Union.

The UK government decided to leave the single market and the customs union.

We respect this sovereign decision."
Ok, then we have this
"The European council guidelines state that the Union will preserve its autonomy of decision-making.

The UK wants to take back control, it wants to adopt its own standards and regulations.

But it also wants to have these standards recognised automatically in the EU. That is what UK papers ask for.

This is simply impossible. You cannot be outside the single market and shape its legal order."
The UK is asking for the its standards to be adopted by the EU in the same way that the UK intends to adapt the EU standards, all the EU has to say is no deal and move on, what is so hard here? On this site we see the EU and USA authorities accepting most standards for aviation after their own inspection, so we know that the process works between the
regulatory bodies of the EU and third countries, both Airbus and Boeing benefit from this arrangement.

Now it is interesting that the EU also wants to have its ECJ rule on matters in the UK related to its citizens who may choose to remain or elect to go to work in the UK, the principle here as it relates to the trade issues is the same, just as the EU will not let Brexit undermine their union, so too the UK cannot let itself be undermined by the EU.

All this simply shows that there is and can be only one Brexit, hard.
Last edited by par13del on Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:02 pm

par13del wrote:
unfortunately, that is not how the UK system of government works, at times the people do get the chance to vote, and in this case, they elected to leave the EU so the UK government has no choice but to honor the vote. .


They also have no choice but to honor previous commitments. Not paying up is basically defaulting on debts and the UK can be fairly happy that rating agency will, probably, not classify that as such. But with S&P, Moody´s and such, you never know.
No one is saying they can´t leave, but the UK government didn´t put "do you want the UK to default on its debts" on the ballot, so in that regards your government is free to do whatever they want.

best regards
Thomas
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:21 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
They also have no choice but to honor previous commitments. Not paying up is basically defaulting on debts and the UK can be fairly happy that rating agency will, probably, not classify that as such. But with S&P, Moody´s and such, you never know.
No one is saying they can´t leave, but the UK government didn´t put "do you want the UK to default on its debts" on the ballot, so in that regards your government is free to do whatever they want.

best regards
Thomas

...and article 50 is a measure that the EU put in place which guides the process by which a member leaves the union. The issue now is what are they supposed to pay, based on what is taking place, it does not appear as if article 50 is really clear. If by default you mean the UK contribution to the EU multiyear budget, as stated earlier in this thread, I expect a prorated amount to be determined since the leave goes across a budget period, but the 100 billion figure is much more than the UK's budget portion, it may be contributions beyond their membership exit which article 50 does not mandate.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
The demand apparently came on 4 sheets of A4 paper. - I had more paperwork when I bought my house, and that didn't cost €100 billion - the paperwork filled two lever arch files.


There is no financial obligation that doesn't fit on one sheet. Balance sheets don't need small print like contracts.

Best regards
Thomas


I expected more that the 4 sheets of paper.

Sheet 1 Title page
Sheet 2 YOU OWE US 100Billion
Sheet 3 NO NEGOTIATION AND NO TRADE BEFORE PONYING UP
Sheet 4. Intentionally blank
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:32 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
I expected more that the 4 sheets of paper.

Sheet 1 Title page
Sheet 2 YOU OWE US 100Billion
Sheet 3 NO NEGOTIATION AND NO TRADE BEFORE PONYING UP
Sheet 4. Intentionally blank


Sounds quite fair to me, what are you/they waiting for?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:11 pm

par13del wrote:
...and article 50 is a measure that the EU put in place which guides the process by which a member leaves the union. The issue now is what are they supposed to pay, based on what is taking place, it does not appear as if article 50 is really clear.


I am beginning to get the feeling you deliberately chose to misunderstand me.

Imagine the following: a friend of yours goes out to a nice dinner with a friend of his. Let's assume that friend is a girl, just so I can use he and her.

They sit down, study the menue, order drinks, starters, main course and maybe even already dessert. The food arrives, and just after the starters are gone, the main course arrived and she is half way trough her cocktail, she gets up and leaves. Maybe she has a good reason, "oh my god, my dad just had a stroke", maybe she just didn't like his company anymore. In any case she leaves the bill to your friend. If she is a good friend and had a good reason, he may chose to just forget about it, if she just left right after dumping him, he may probably be much less inclined to do so. He comes to you and complains about her.

Are you 100% proof positive you would tell him "Well, after you sat down, did you agree on who is paying what if one of you suddenly decides to get up and leave?"? And tell him "Well, if you didn't, she is perfectly right to leave and stick the bill to you!" After he said "no"? Really? Really, really?

In case you've missed the analogy, in this case the UK is the girl dumping her boyfriend during dinner, expecting him to pay for it.

Oh, and in this case she dumped him for no better reason than "I want to take 100% control of my weekends back".

Best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:13 pm

If we're honouring our previous commitments surely the EU can actually post a breakdown of those since it would surely have the paperwork on them?

In the UK, it's the law that you have to provide an itemized receipt. Maybe an idea the EU can adopt for themselves.
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:21 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
If we're honouring our previous commitments surely the EU can actually post a breakdown of those since it would surely have the paperwork on them?

In the UK, it's the law that you have to provide an itemized receipt. Maybe an idea the EU can adopt for themselves.


Do you happen to read you are replying ?

Eu has given that paper to the UK at the first meeting in June. You should wonder why your government is not publishing it....
 
mmo
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:27 pm

Dano1977 wrote:

I expected more that the 4 sheets of paper.

Sheet 1 Title page
Sheet 2 YOU OWE US 100Billion
Sheet 3 NO NEGOTIATION AND NO TRADE BEFORE PONYING UP
Sheet 4. Intentionally blank


But, isn't that what they asked for? The UK wants to be out of the EU, however, it wants all the "perks" which go with being a member except for a few things such as free movement and other "little" things like that.

The sad thing is the EU was pretty clear about their expectations and the EU fails to remember that. The simple fact is the EU has no leverage at all, and they either don't realize that yet or they just don't have a clue. Personally, I think it's the latter.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:29 pm

Why doesn't the EU publish it?
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:43 pm

Because they have no reason to?

They made it and gave it to the UK government. They should publish it for troll's forum instead of your government ? The government that took time to produce and answer attacking that note but that are not willing to put on paper what they recognize as liabilities.

I bet they just wait the next conservative party congress before moving.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:44 pm

Because everybody would see the outrageous demands.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:53 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
In case you've missed the analogy, in this case the UK is the girl dumping her boyfriend during dinner, expecting him to pay for it.

Oh, and in this case she dumped him for no better reason than "I want to take 100% control of my weekends back".

Best regards
Thomas

In your analogy, the bill for the food equivalent is the UK contribution to the EU budget, so the only quibble would be whether each side is going 50 / 50, or as stated prorated based on the multi-year and the leave falling during a budget period. Now if a dumping takes place, what other commitments are we looking at, he continuing to pay her rent for the next 6 months while not living together, allowing her to keep an engagement ring if one was given, how about the loan payments for her car, if they both co-signed the loan they can negotiate selling or one side buying out the other, they could also stop paying in which case the bank will reposes the car. I like the car loan analogy because neither side can beat the other over the head to continue paying since a break up in the relationship is taking place, and both are fully aware of the cost of the obligation. Now she may want to keep the car and have him continue to pay for it, but she has to ask kindly and he has to agree as one cannot have ones cake and eat it too, this is the Remainers side of the puzzle.

I honestly do not think the issue is the UK portion of the EU budget up to Mar-2019, the PM and the UK government have already stated that they will honor their commitments up to the end of their membership. Do you honestly believe that the 100 billion being requested is the prorated amount of the UK budget contribution to Mar-2019? If it is some future obligation, it is not mandated by article 50, in which case it should be negotiated, not something the EU can hold over the UK's head as if it is a legally binding obligation.

The UK is going to have to pay for access to the EU if they choose not to go WTO, that cost is supposed to come AFTER the divorce bill, so the 100 billion has nothing to do with trade.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:59 pm

Olddog wrote:
The government that took time to produce and answer attacking that note but that are not willing to put on paper what they recognize as liabilities.

As with the EU stated principles listed in their reply, the UK cannot pick, choose or define what their obligations are, the EU and the UK should already know what they are since they are covered by a treaty or multiple treaties. Let's get the lawyers to work rather the politicians.
I say since the UK is still a member of the EU and uses the ECJ, let's have the court based on the treaties list the UK obligations, this EU says its this and if you don't agree you tell me what it is does not sound mature, especially between members of a union which is founded on legal principles.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:01 am

Dano1977 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
The demand apparently came on 4 sheets of A4 paper. - I had more paperwork when I bought my house, and that didn't cost €100 billion - the paperwork filled two lever arch files.


There is no financial obligation that doesn't fit on one sheet. Balance sheets don't need small print like contracts.

Best regards
Thomas


I expected more that the 4 sheets of paper.

Sheet 1 Title page
Sheet 2 YOU OWE US 100Billion
Sheet 3 NO NEGOTIATION AND NO TRADE BEFORE PONYING UP
Sheet 4. Intentionally blank


First of all, there is no number on the document, which has been publicly available for two months and a half now. You could have just googled it.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... t_en_2.pdf

It is an itemised list of commitments. It doesn't have any numbers, because those numbers can be extracted from the relevant sources as soon as the UK agrees those are the bits they have to pay.

So if the UK is now "OMG, they just put things on 4 sheets of paper" why on earth did it take them 2 months and a half to cobble a reply together?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:06 am

par13del wrote:
In your analogy, the bill for the food equivalent is the UK contribution to the EU budget,.


Nope, it is the stuff in the document linked above. Sort of, your scientists and universities benefited from joint nuclear research, of course they will have to pay for dismantling and clean up of those sites.....and so on and so forth.

Now if a dumping takes place, what other commitments are we looking at, he continuing to pay her rent for the next 6 months while not living together,


If she tells him to move out after she dumps him, she has to pay the rent, if she moves out after dumping him, she has to pay her share of the rent until the notice period is up. Shared lease just means that the landlord can ask him to pay all the rent, it doesn´t make her liability towards him goes away.

As long the UK government refuses to pay up, it is exactly that ungrateful bitch of an ex-gf, that dumped your friend for no other reason but being selfish. It is fine to be selfish, but don´t expect your ex to help you move and set up your furniture after pulling a stunt like that. Or give you a generous trade agreement.

best regards
Thomas
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:16 am

JJJ wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

There is no financial obligation that doesn't fit on one sheet. Balance sheets don't need small print like contracts.

Best regards
Thomas


I expected more that the 4 sheets of paper.

Sheet 1 Title page
Sheet 2 YOU OWE US 100Billion
Sheet 3 NO NEGOTIATION AND NO TRADE BEFORE PONYING UP
Sheet 4. Intentionally blank


First of all, there is no number on the document, which has been publicly available for two months and a half now. You could have just googled it.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... t_en_2.pdf

It is an itemised list of commitments. It doesn't have any numbers, because those numbers can be extracted from the relevant sources as soon as the UK agrees those are the bits they have to pay.

So if the UK is now "OMG, they just put things on 4 sheets of paper" why on earth did it take them 2 months and a half to cobble a reply together?



Or is this the real reason?

Without the UK’s €9 billion annual net contribution to the EU, the EU’s budget faces a €63 billion hole for the seven-year budget period starting in 2020, on top of any UK commitments that wouldn’t be made before, as well as the UK’s share of the EU budget’s “reste à liquider” (RAL) or de facto long-term deficit.


Real Vote loser (especially in France)
Of course, given how bloated the EU budget is, it shouldn’t be hard to figure out where to make spending cuts, for example in the €270 billion handout to agricultural landowners between 2015 and 2020,



https://capx.co/the-eu-will-soften-its- ... heres-why/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:27 am

Dano1977 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:

I expected more that the 4 sheets of paper.

Sheet 1 Title page
Sheet 2 YOU OWE US 100Billion
Sheet 3 NO NEGOTIATION AND NO TRADE BEFORE PONYING UP
Sheet 4. Intentionally blank


First of all, there is no number on the document, which has been publicly available for two months and a half now. You could have just googled it.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... t_en_2.pdf

It is an itemised list of commitments. It doesn't have any numbers, because those numbers can be extracted from the relevant sources as soon as the UK agrees those are the bits they have to pay.

So if the UK is now "OMG, they just put things on 4 sheets of paper" why on earth did it take them 2 months and a half to cobble a reply together?



Or is this the real reason?

Without the UK’s €9 billion annual net contribution to the EU, the EU’s budget faces a €63 billion hole for the seven-year budget period starting in 2020, on top of any UK commitments that wouldn’t be made before, as well as the UK’s share of the EU budget’s “reste à liquider” (RAL) or de facto long-term deficit.


Real Vote loser (especially in France)
Of course, given how bloated the EU budget is, it shouldn’t be hard to figure out where to make spending cuts, for example in the €270 billion handout to agricultural landowners between 2015 and 2020,



https://capx.co/the-eu-will-soften-its- ... heres-why/


I think it was mentioned here ones or twice before, the EU spends around 1,4% of the economy. And as for the budget for 2020-2027, that budget hasn't been determined and now the Brexit will be factored in, so no worries. As for France, they are a net-contributor, so don't get your comment about vote loser. For Poland, yes, but France. As for the agricultural subsidies, I agree, that money could have been spent much better.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:32 am

Dano1977 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:

I expected more that the 4 sheets of paper.

Sheet 1 Title page
Sheet 2 YOU OWE US 100Billion
Sheet 3 NO NEGOTIATION AND NO TRADE BEFORE PONYING UP
Sheet 4. Intentionally blank


First of all, there is no number on the document, which has been publicly available for two months and a half now. You could have just googled it.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... t_en_2.pdf

It is an itemised list of commitments. It doesn't have any numbers, because those numbers can be extracted from the relevant sources as soon as the UK agrees those are the bits they have to pay.

So if the UK is now "OMG, they just put things on 4 sheets of paper" why on earth did it take them 2 months and a half to cobble a reply together?



So the UK took two months to reply to something because of an obscure op-ed? That piece is nothing more than the usual "they need us more than we need 'em" that was thrown around the leave campaign and that's been proven wrong over and over.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:24 am

JJJ wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

First of all, there is no number on the document, which has been publicly available for two months and a half now. You could have just googled it.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... t_en_2.pdf

It is an itemised list of commitments. It doesn't have any numbers, because those numbers can be extracted from the relevant sources as soon as the UK agrees those are the bits they have to pay.

So if the UK is now "OMG, they just put things on 4 sheets of paper" why on earth did it take them 2 months and a half to cobble a reply together?



So the UK took two months to reply to something because of an obscure op-ed? That piece is nothing more than the usual "they need us more than we need 'em" that was thrown around the leave campaign and that's been proven wrong over and over.


This piece was published on 31st August 2017 - not the two months you insinuate

Open Europe - According to Wiki

Open Europe is a socially and economically liberal pan-European think tank and campaign group with offices in London and Brussels and an independent partner organisation in Berlin operated by staff from a number of EU states. The think-tank promotes retaining a close UK relationship with the EU, high levels of EU migration, as well as liberal economic and political reform of the remaining European Union.[1]



So it's not Anti EU like other publications.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:31 am

Dano1977 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:


So the UK took two months to reply to something because of an obscure op-ed? That piece is nothing more than the usual "they need us more than we need 'em" that was thrown around the leave campaign and that's been proven wrong over and over.


This piece was published on 31st August 2017 - not the two months you insinuate

Open Europe - According to Wiki

Open Europe is a socially and economically liberal pan-European think tank and campaign group with offices in London and Brussels and an independent partner organisation in Berlin operated by staff from a number of EU states. The think-tank promotes retaining a close UK relationship with the EU, high levels of EU migration, as well as liberal economic and political reform of the remaining European Union.[1]



So it's not Anti EU like other publications.


The EU official position paper was published 2 1/2 months ago.

I really, really hope that the UK negotiating team don't wait until they find a suitable blogger they can get their ideas from.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:42 am

Dano1977 wrote:
Or is this the real reason?


Unlikely. The EU budget shortfall is probably going to be made up with the taxes those 10th or thousands of bankers, lawyers and accountants, that will have to move to the continent, will generate across the EU. Then there is that 1000+ Billion EUR in banking business moving across the channel. UK banks losing their EU passport alone may easily shift enough GDP to the continent that the EU could actually pay the UK to leave and still come out on top.

best regards
Thomas
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:26 am

Don't worry dano, the return in the eurozone of the euro clearing rooms will more than just compensate for the UK contribution :)
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:34 am

Ahh the old banking argument...

Almost as plausible as that £350m to the NHS every week....
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:47 am

Dano1977 wrote:
Almost as plausible as that £350m to the NHS every week....


Not remotely so.

Those 350 Million where never available to go to the NHS
Those bankers really do have to move, and so does the ~1 to 1.8 Trillion EUR/Year in Business..

best regards
Thomas
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:03 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
Almost as plausible as that £350m to the NHS every week....


Not remotely so.

Those 350 Million where never available to go to the NHS
Those bankers really do have to move, and so does the ~1 to 1.8 Trillion EUR/Year in Business..

best regards
Thomas


https://www.economist.com/news/finance- ... oving-euro
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:23 pm

You should look for a more up to date article and from a source that has not a vested interest :)

Do you really think that uk making brexit negotiations very obnoxious will be met with good will ?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:29 pm

Olddog wrote:
Do you really think that uk making brexit negotiations very obnoxious will be met with good will ?


"Can you believe that? This ungrateful son of a bitch, that i have blackmailed throughout our relationship, has the nerves to refuse helping me move into a new Apartment" Mode, full on.

best regards
Thomas
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:45 pm

What has to be noted is that for many, the UK has been too southeast centric for far too long, it is not just the EU who want to see London taken down a peg. Let's see how willing they are to pay, they already voted leave so let see the country folk walk the walk.

The more you read the more Hard Brexit appears to be the only viable option, as for the commitment by the 28 cannot be the commitments of the 27, I'm taking more time to digest, don't want to immediately see equivalence to have cake ......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:02 am

Hopefully, it won't come to that, Par13del. but with each day passing, it seems more and more likely. I think that the May government will not make it through 2018, so another round of elections and then? Then it is Brexit time without a deal, a hard Brexit. Hopefully, I am wrong about this one.
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:29 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/02/brexit-britain-deal-europe-clean-break-fractious-talks-brussels

Excellent piece today. I think it should answer most of the concern about the EU position. Here an extract

The first thing to say about the view from the continent is that it isn’t paying as much attention to Britain as Britain thinks. In France, Emmanuel Macron is fixated on his reform plans. In Germany, an election campaign is under way. In the Netherlands, everyone’s still waiting for a new cabinet to be formed. In Poland, the government is locked into a dispute with the EU over its backsliding on rule of law. The energy spent in Britain on the Brexit debate is far from replicated, or even echoed, elsewhere. That is only natural.

Then there’s a key nuance to consider. The main reason for the current impasse isn’t just that Brexit was always going to be a headache. Nor is it only the British government’s lack of clarity or strategy. It is to do with a complete mismatch of perceptions – one that remains almost unspoken.

In Britain, both the government and much of the public have come to believe that, as confrontational as it may be, Brexit is an issue that both sides have an equal interest in sorting out. It’s as if a mountain were to be climbed by two parallel teams. Whoever comes out on top will be the winner, but the mountain must be conquered by both, otherwise there will be a catastrophic cliff fall.

On the EU side, there is only one imperative: self-preservation

On the continent, an altogether different metaphor applies. Picture a ship sailing off from a port where it was well anchored, and the port’s many inhabitants wanting to make sure that ship is neither carrying cannons that it may shoot back at them, nor equipment that would make it impossible for the port to thrive.

Those on land also want to know that the departing ship’s captain won’t seek to return as if nothing had changed, and won’t demand a say in how the place develops without abiding by all of the locally agreed rules.

Indeed, the land-people believe, with good reason, that the integrity of those locally agreed rules is what defines their collective identity in the first place. It is what helped them overcome the trauma of self-destruction in a past century, and what allows them to face external and internal challenges today. It is also what their business and trade interests require in an environment of global competition, in which large blocs have a better chance of defending themselves than smaller entities do.
The Guardian's Brexit Means ... The three ‘whats’ of leaving the EU – Brexit Means podcast
The team look at what kind of transition Britain wants, what might be in the government’s position papers and what size of divorce bill Brexiters are willing to pay
Listen

The departing ship is watched with both sadness and concern, but there is no rush to take on its navigation problems. That all of the land-people may not always agree on everything changes little. They’re aligned in letting the port authority discuss an orderly way out for the ship, and they’re keen to keep close contact with it in the future – but within conditions they consider non-negotiable. The point of this metaphor is that there is no common effort. Britain and the EU are not struggling with Brexit together: Britain is seeking its own route, and it is essentially alone in that quandary. On the EU side, there is only one imperative: self-preservation.

Take a moment to read the 29 April European council guidelines for Brexit negotiations. It’s all there: “no cherry-picking”, “no separate negotiations”. And this: “European integration has brought peace and prosperity to Europe and allowed for an unprecedented level and scope of cooperation in a rapidly changing world. Therefore, the union’s overall objective in these negotiations will be to preserve its interests, those of its citizens, its businesses and its member states.”
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:39 pm

Seems about right. Nice comparison with a boat leaving port.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:21 am

It also shows the futility of the current situation and why Article 50 needs more clarity, it does also show what a large number of persons have been saying for a long time, that the priority of the EU must be its preservation, which means in addition to maintaining its principles it must also ensure that other members are "discouraged" from following the lead. Yes there has been some admission previously that changes in the union are required but those will have to wait until long after Brexit, solidarity now is the key.
So if there can be no freedom of movement, no authority of the ECJ on the UK side, other than the divorce bill, what is there to negotiate? The dynamic of Ireland has changed, Brexit will not be allowed to unite Ireland, so in spite of the peace accords, some type of border will have to be put up, unless the EU declares Ireland a special case. The peace accord can be used to "allow" a special consideration as not abandoning any of the core principles, but I don't think so, like it or not, the EU is the key mover on the border issue.
The only alternative to Hard Brexit is the Norway model which is a construct of the EU, but which has been rejected not just by politicians but most of the population in the lead up to the referendum, so the sooner both sides get to work on hard stuff the better, which is building up the infrastructures on both sides to accommodate third country relationships.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:57 am

All 'hard' stuff is in place within the EU, no problems there. The UK wasn't part of Schengen so that helps in this case, no need to reintroduce border control etc. because that already is in place, customs can be added at a wimp. The UK side is quite different, they need to put in place a lot of institutions which the EU did for them.

What is unclear about the Article 50 procedure? The divorce bill perhaps? But what else? 2 years to come up with a better plan than a hard divorce, if not a hard divorce it is.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
What is unclear about the Article 50 procedure? The divorce bill perhaps? But what else? 2 years to come up with a better plan than a hard divorce, if not a hard divorce it is.

The divorce bill needs clarification, the commitment of 28 must become that of 27 in Mar-2019, projects are not fully funded at inception, the cost is agreed and paid in stages. The commitments should follow the budget principle, the UK has to foot its portion of the cost to the exit date. Discussions can be held about whether either side will continue participation to project completion, but one cannot demand that participation and use it as a block.

Your question of 2 years to come up with a better plan than a hard divorce, there is no such thing, you are a member or not, full or Norway, what is there to negotiate? Any member leaving the union becomes a third country on the date of exit, both the EU and the UK deal with third countries, both sides know what it entails. The UK may have made some major mistakes, if EU red tape is an impediment to trade and business, why accept all EU standards into UK law at Mar-2019, is that not one of the reasons for leaving, the 2 year period should be defining the new rules. In an earlier post, trade between the two will decline, allowing it to continue for ease of business for a transitional period will ensure that the business who will ultimately relocate, do not contribute in any significant way to the building of the "new country", that is the flip side of the so called cliff edge. Just as business houses do not want to curtail the huge bonus payout to executives, they do not want to pay the necessary higher tariffs that have to come to fund the new country. The UK has to pay for its expanded infrastructure, as an example, if a EU tariff of 7.5% is charged, WTO is 10%, a 2 year transition on Mar-2019 sees an increase to 8.5%, if at the end of the period no agreement is reached, continue as is or go WTO. The good thing is that so many examples of tariff rates already exist and are being used for trade with non-EU countries, both sides agree on which one to use and customs fees issue resolved. Product standards must also change which was another Brexit vote issue, so far the UK has spent little to no time on their standards, they achieve no cost savings if they blanket accept EU standards for a transition period, any exemptions or UK specific aspects would be gone, that may increase rather than reduce the cost of business.

Freedom of movement is also a core principle, you have it or you don't. Simple plan by the UK would have been that all EU workers automatically receive 2 year free work permits on Mar-2019, after the end of the period, they would be terminated or renewed by the company, having a cost associated during the 2 year period lets all see at a glance the financial impact, if housing etc is also included that also follows the 2 year rule. It works like this outside of the EU, no need to re-invent the wheel.
Non-workers, the plan set out by the UK is viable but open to changes and adjustments, that is where time can be spent in negotiations as the mandate are different. The UK would be making persons citizens of a country, the EU can grant EU access but I don't think they can grant citizenship to member nationalities, I suspect each of the 27 have their own requirements.

The major problem rest on the UK side, the politicians and elites (business interest) were mostly remain, as such the current government is mostly remain, I agree on the nostalgia part, but it is the wrong nostalgia, it is not of past colonial days, it is the remainer's wanting to cling to the past 40+ years of EU membership versus standing on their own two feet as the citizens demanded. Millions voted leave, to say they were all delusional or led up the garden path does not bode well if they remained in the union, they would be fodder to be trod on or cost millions in re-education programs, as no one will be trying to figure out how they got that way.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:12 pm

Per the link below, the section on trade
"He said that a future free trade deal would be different to all others in the past and there had to be assurances there would be no unfair competition in the form of social, environmental or fiscal dumping, or state aid."

I can understand why the remainers would sign on to that, but why would any independent country sign on to that, the business interest in the UK are already demanding concessions, the government is already in a position where they have to offer incentives, the UK is a pimple compared to the EU, they cannot negotiate away their independence. I suspect this is mostly about financial services and the UK not going tax haven status after they loose passporting services.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41140564
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:39 am

par13del wrote:
I can understand why the remainers would sign on to that, but why would any independent country sign on to that,


Remainers do not give a damn about being an independent country. To them, being further subsumed into "ever closer union" is a price worth paying, no matter how much it completely undermines us.

The EU Withdrawal Bill will repeal the law that paved the way for the UK to join the European Economic Community in the 1970s and convert 40 years worth of EU statutes into domestic law.


EU directives are already domestic law. That's how they have force. Member states make laws implementing them. They don't need to convert anything since most of those things are already on the statute books. Or have I completely misunderstood the article?
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:34 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:

EU directives are already domestic law. That's how they have force. Member states make laws implementing them. They don't need to convert anything since most of those things are already on the statute books. Or have I completely misunderstood the article?

My understanding, there will be no EU to refer the domestic rules / laws / regulations to within the UK legal system, so a new baseline has to be set. By converting all the EU statutes into UK law, they are providing some level of "comfort" to the EU citizens in the UK and those who support remaining in the EU that the UK will not suddenly become a dictatorship or some such nefarious society but that for the immediate future, the protections afforded to EU citizens within the EU will also apply to the UK, including whatever issues they currently have with EU red tape.

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