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BobPatterson
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:55 am

If your post #100 was intended as a reply to my #99, I must tell you it is evasive and unworthy.

Why can't Korea defend itself?

There was no declared war. There was a police action, UN "sponsored". Korea does not need ground troops from the USA stationed there permanently.
 
CH47A
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:14 am

If you view that post as being evasive then I probably have some studying to do to improve my thinking.

If you view that post as unworthy, I suspect that I should do an equal amount of studying to answer that.

Unfortunately, I am, right now, upset that I was too slow in catching a stupid punctuation mistake I made in the earlier post and the software has turned off my permission to edit. It's much easier to communicate with a keyboard on a forum when you are an admin.

Oh yes, Mr. Patterson, that statement you made that the ROK can defend itself might require some study on my part, too.

As for that statement about no declared war, I am rather sure I have run across that one before. Not sure what we are supposed to state when some person states it wasn't a war and so it ain't one now, but I am almost sure that the vocabulary "war" has been used in many situations where the death of a citizen of our country was being explained and I am not brave enough to go up to some family member related to a KIA and say: "It wasn't a war, so get down from that step on the ladder."

Anyway, Mr. Patterson, you seem to want to just pull back form the world at large and just stick to dealing with national issues. I thought the U.S. A. got itself into a whole mess of trouble by using that style of thinking way back about 100 years ago. You want to start that all over, yes? I'll need time to study that, too.

Now that, sir, is a professionally evasive post.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:14 am

CH47A, I respect your opinion, but your assertion that the DPRK wants to attack the US if they could only seem to have a basis in rhetoric, not reality. The core is, what would the gain be for the Kim regime to attack America first? I see none. And you seem to advocate the removal of the Kim regime and your assertion seem to be that China will help. You seem to go by the consequences of such action, huge loss life, 1/2 a million "easy", economic collapse and perhaps World War III, because I have no indication that China condemns such an action and are willing to look the other way let alone actively contribute.

In the core, I think your reasoning is flawed. And even dangerous if a politician had made the same analysis.
 
CH47A
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:04 am

Dutchy, you are gonna get me in hot water with Bob. I just informed him I was getting into my shell and here you got me poking my fins ends at this human typing piece of equipment again.

Anyway, I don't remember asserting that the mainland Chinese would help the UN in any actions on the Korean peninsula. Maybe I did, but I don't remember that as I read and type right now.

I believe, though, that the mainland Chinese government gave the idea to some rather smart folks that if an attack on the DPRK was justified they would not become involved.

I believe I have also read some foreign policy analysis that seemed to indicate that privately the mainland Chinese government had stated they would be very unhappy, towards not tolerant of any occupation of the DPRK land area by any enemy force.

Removing the present regime in the DPRK seems tolerable under certain circumstances I am positive they have publicly stated, the second one I am not sure how I picked that one up.

You see, the mainland Chinese government is not so naïve as to believe they can completely block repercussions if the Kim regime goes too far. And firing a ballistic missile that is only designed for warfare over another nation is creeping up very, very close to going too far.

Now I better hide before Bob comes hunting for me.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:31 am

The Chinese publicly stated that they will not defend the DPRK if they attack first, but will defend if the DPRK is attacked. China seems to be unhappy with a nuclear North Korea, and unhappy with the regime in general, but they do fear the removal of the regime altogether, refugees, unstable DPRK at its border and perhaps a nuclear Korea with American backing at his border. If they go too far, (that is a matter of interpretation) China might do it itself, but there is a high price to pay.
 
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scbriml
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:30 am

aerorobnz wrote:
They should carpet bomb all the religious Glorious leader sites, his presidential palaces and any launch sites and then follow it up with a South Korean invasion force and the final goal should be reunification of Korea.


And that's something that China will never allow to happen. :shakehead:
 
CH47A
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:03 am

I think, scbriml, you might want to be careful with that use of the word "never" if I may say so without offending you.

You see, here is when I think the "never" would not apply.

Some reason the Kim regime collapses. Anarchy develops in the DPRK areas. Koreans from north of the DMZ start flowing toward the south. More and more. Finally the United Nations states that we have a crisis that requires new attention. The United Nations has to help. The Koreans from north of the DMZ do want to go home but they want a democratic governing body in the area where the old Kim regime ruled and how can the mainland Chinese refuse that?

I guess what I am trying to think is that this situation is nothing like Tibet. Just because the northern Koreans are presently under a strange governing regime does not mean they don't deeply know that there has to be a better way. And I'll bet they aren't completely ignorant of how their southern brothers and sisters are enjoying life on this planet. Once they get free of the Kim regime it will be very hard to put them back into chains, even by the Chinese mainland government. And there are a fair number of Korean folks living in the areas controlled by the mainland Chinese government and giving them a reason to rise up and ask for freedom wouldn't be too smart. If the ROK was not presently in existence, then maybe another Tibet would be possible. But that just isn't the situation.

Of course, I don't know, but using "never" I do know is mighty close to not such a good idea when we are making reference to the wishes of millions of folks. Millions of Koreans not wanting to be bothered by any Chinese could be a really big headache for even the smartest of any Chinese politician. Especially if the Koreans, once they agree to be together again state to the mainland Chinese government that they plan to ask the United States forces to leave the peninsula.

The Korean folks are mighty proud folks and they aren't going to let the Chinese dominate them once they are ALL able to make a decent living and live in peace.

Just a few thoughts. Of course, nobody knows what's going to happen. I just hope it is not going to cost too many lives. If any. One never knows.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:34 am

How can an autocratic regime refuse democratic government? Look at what is happening to the "democratic" regime in Hong Kong to answer that question. The UN or more precisely the UN security council will do nothing without the permission of the People's Republic of China, they have veto power.

The people in North Koreans might know that their country isn't the best in the world, although they are told over and over again it is and America is Satan. Brainwashing starting as soon as someone is born. But even if they know, they can't just uprise against the regime, don't think of DPRK as a country, but as a giant prison with highly developed security and surveillance. Kind of the DDR - Deutsche Democratische Republic - on steroids.

Good movies to watch about this:
Das Leben der Anderen (2006); http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Good Bye Lenin! (2003); http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/?ref_=nv_sr_1

I think the most logical course will be that at some point the North Koreans will uprise against the Kim regime, the only change will be from within, not from outside. Until that time has come, containment is the best and most viable option. What will happen afterward is anyone's guess. A reunification is an option (with Americans leaving Korea), but that would be far more difficult than the reunification of East and West Germany in the 1990's. And China might still oppose that even if America is leaving.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.
 
CH47A
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:17 am

"a giant prison"

My goodness, where did you pick that one up?

That is exactly what they said about the USSR and I do believe those folks running the USSR had a better system of control than does the Kim regime right now and it still fell apart.

Now I am going to be impolite and I hope you will accept my apology.

You really don't understand, do you?

There are folks living in clusters all over the area controlled by the Kim regime where the folks know bloody well they are being screwed and by whom and as soon as the machine of the Kim regime starts to show cracks those clusters of people are just fine with helping the cracks get bigger and bigger and then BAM the whole thing crumbles.

It is just the way it is with the human spirit. You can only treat a very large group of humans as animals in a cage for only a short time. "Short" being relative to our full time on this planet.

Listen, even prison officials in a much tighter security situation will tell you that controlling humans in that way is one tough job. And we are referring to an entire region of millions of people and you really think their security forces have everything under control?

My goodness. Those little leaflets they fly over the DMZ are getting much farther out than I thought.

I'm sorry, but you are way, way off track. There are a whole big bunch of folks living north of the DMZ that are just waiting for the right moment. It has been like that throughout human history on this planet. You just can't fool humans for too long. "Too long" again being relative to our time on this planet.

But you will get it someday. Nobody knows when the light will come on until it does. Yours hasn't come on, yet. But I think there is hope for you. You seem to be trying. You just need a little more faith in your fellow humans folks on this planet. You can't keep humans down!
 
CH47A
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:31 am

Okay, I see I made a bad mistake. I knew where my brain was going, but I didn't finish in my post.

What will happen when the people living north of the DMZ get themselves free is ain't nobody but their brothers and sisters to the south going to be able to provide them with guidance. They will NOT listen to the Chinese when they are no longer ordered to. I forgot to teach you one more thing. These folks over here do not get along too well with each other. It's been like that for a very, very long time. By "these folks" I mean three groups --- the Chinese, the Koreans, the Japanese.

Once the North-of-DMZ Koreans get out of their "prison" they will only want to be united with their South-of-the-DMZ cousins and brother and sisters.

The Chinese ain't gonna have nothing to say about that, unless they want to try and put those North-of-the-DMZ Koreans back in prison. And that won't be possible.

And the Chinese sure ain't stupid. They won't try. They know. They're Chinese!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:38 am

I must say I prefer you much more direct, feels more real this way and you get to your point much sooner, but heck I am Dutch so I respond to direct ;-).

Anyhow, I do not dispute that, like I said, it will happen from within, the exact thing you are arguing here. When this will be is anyone's guess, 1 day from now, 10 days, 10 months or 10 years, nobody can tell. New years eve 1988 everything seems to be fine in Eastern Europe, month latter the castle crumbled down.

And I will accept that the North Koreans might know all about the South and the rest of the world.

You seem to argue for external interference (invasion/attack) and I think that is a huge mistake, that is the difference between us.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:46 am

CH47A wrote:
Okay, I see I made a bad mistake. I knew where my brain was going, but I didn't finish in my post.

What will happen when the people living north of the DMZ get themselves free is ain't nobody but their brothers and sisters to the south going to be able to provide them with guidance. They will NOT listen to the Chinese when they are no longer ordered to. I forgot to teach you one more thing. These folks over here do not get along too well with each other. It's been like that for a very, very long time. By "these folks" I mean three groups --- the Chinese, the Koreans, the Japanese.

Once the North-of-DMZ Koreans get out of their "prison" they will only want to be united with their South-of-the-DMZ cousins and brother and sisters.

The Chinese ain't gonna have nothing to say about that, unless they want to try and put those North-of-the-DMZ Koreans back in prison. And that won't be possible.

And the Chinese sure ain't stupid. They won't try. They know. They're Chinese!


Now you understand why the Chinese will not allow outside interference (tumbling of the regime) and why it is better to contain than to attack.

You seem to know all the facts I do, but we come to a radical other conclusions.
 
CH47A
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:03 am

Okay, I don't know about my style and I am too old to change it now. Sorry if I piss you off sometimes. I used to teach after I could no longer fly. In a cockpit you do not piss off the student. In the classroom, it sometimes helps. Very different environment. Maybe I let a teaching style sneak into my post. That wouldn't be so good.

Now you seemed to get the idea I am all for non-Korean humans doing some work of fixing things for the folks on that particular peninsula.

Quite frankly, I don't give a rat's arse who fixes the situation. It just has to be fixed, that's all.

What I DO care about is my own country, the U.S. of A. And that youngest Kim fella is really blabbing a bunch about some sort of missile type attack or some such type of something to harm my country. That one ain't gonna rotate! That bird ain't flyin'!!

You can bet your sweet bippy that ain't gonna happen. That is why things are coming to a head right now in our lifetime. NOW. And this thread is asking because this is the first time they launched a military type missile over one of our friends.

You know, it might just be this thread will help you folks come to grips with reality. It ain't going too much farther. And the powers in the region know it. The Chinese on the mainland know it. The Russians know it. We have the right to defend ourselves. And if that defense requires certain missile sites being made dysfunctional, so be it.

And we sure don't want to do nothing for our new friends, the Japanese. It ain't nice to have to ask a whole bunch of your citizens to get down in some cellar. Or hide somewhere. They have enough to worry about from earthquakes. That's the Gods getting angry. They don't need some nutcase human type to cause trouble from the air. And they are our allies, don't forget. Maybe friends, but that is a stretch.

So everyone over here knows the situation has to be fixed. One way or the other.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U. S. Response to DPRK Missile Over Hokkaido

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:33 pm

Ok, now you are being honest about your motives, I like that, I get more pissed off if I feel I am not treated honestly. :D

So it is the ability to reach the US and you feel that is enough reason to do a pre-emptive strike. Sure America has the right to defend itself, but a pre-emptive strike is nor justified nor the smart thing to do even it is just the missile sites. North Korea will react and Seoul will be in the crossfire, so the price to be paid by keeping America safe from a hypothetical attack is (South) Korea in ruins. And that is quite unethical I think.

The US should stop provoking North Korea, that will help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N ... sile_tests

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