Here's what happens when you organize an illegal referendum in Spain:

Video:
https://www.ad.nl/buitenland/schokkende ... va309fe72/

This is disgraceful. All they are trying to do is vote. The Spanish Government has worsened the situation immeasurably by refusing to allow a referendum and then engaging in violence against their own citizens.

I do not see why Spain could not have followed the lead of the United Kingdom and had a full, open and frank national conversation about independence before allowing Catalan voters to make an informed choice. All the Spanish government has done has been to stoke resentment and anger within Catalonia. One has to wonder whether the government is trying to create more anti-Madrid sentiment, or whether they're just really, really stupid.

The UK was ready to take the risk to lose a big chunk of its territory.

Well in fact I don't think they were ready, they just thought there was no way the vote would be independance, just like there was no way Brexit would win. They got one right, at least.

Spain isn't ready to take that chance.

KLDC10 wrote:

This is disgraceful. All they are trying to do is vote. The Spanish Government has worsened the situation immeasurably by refusing to allow a referendum and then engaging in violence against their own citizens.

I do not see why Spain could not have followed the lead of the United Kingdom and had a full, open and frank national conversation about independence before allowing Catalan voters to make an informed choice. All the Spanish government has done has been to stoke resentment and anger within Catalonia. One has to wonder whether the government is trying to create more anti-Madrid sentiment, or whether they're just really, really stupid.

Absolutely agree with you! This fascist behavior has no place in the EU and the Spanish government has done themselves no favors with this violent act. Let them vote, that is what democracy is all about! The politicians ordering the riot police to do this should be deeply ashamed of themselves!

But this is just another example how politicians all around Europe do not listen to the common people and basically force their policies down our throat and then they wonder why in the end more and more people vote extremist or right wing parties!?

KLDC10 wrote:

This is disgraceful. All they are trying to do is vote.

It's not quite that simple though, is it? As far as the Spanish government is concerned, the independence vote is illegal and the police are enforcing the law.

KLDC10 wrote:

I do not see why Spain could not have followed the lead of the United Kingdom and had a full, open and frank national conversation about independence

The situation with Scotland is very different to that of Catalonia. Although a member of the UK, Scotland is a separate country bound by the Act of Union of 1707. The independence referendum of 2014 required the approval of Parliament before it could take place.

Catalonia seeking independence from Spain is akin to the county of Surrey seeking independence from the UK. Surrey County Council could approve an independence vote, but it would be completely illegal.

Insane, there's absolutely no point for either side to be taking this action. I fear the worst outcome here would be the splitting of Spain and it would certainly ruin what's left of Spain. And Catalunya's future would be 100% dependent on recognition by the EU. I don't see any other outcome than Spain leaving the EU in that case. It would be the end of this grand experiment in my opinion. Madrid is doing itself zero favors with its tactics and yet what does Catalunya have to complain about about, a few billion Euros that go to help the poorer regions of the country? They have everything else they've always craved including near absolute autonomy within the country, recognition of their own language, schooling, policing and immense wealth and prospects for the future. But they need it all for themselves and screw their compatriots elsewhere? That path leads directly to Germany, Switzerland and Norway (as an example) just saying $uck Europe and we're going to create a super rich club of Europeans and the rest of you can go your own way. Where does it end?

Next up the Basques and then the Northern League, Scotland again. It's a very sad day watching all of this unfold.

Wingman Norway isn’t part of the EU,it should be but it isn’t.

This is escalating very quickly, no point in doing this by both sides of this. They need to have an open and frank discussion about this. Going through with this referendum was an escalation as is the Spanish central government's response, an absolute overkill and will solve nothing.

kasimir wrote:

But this is just another example how politicians all around Europe do not listen to the common people and basically force their policies down our throat and then they wonder why in the end more and more people vote extremist or right wing parties!?

Exactly. European politicians have created the conditions for right-wing parties to flourish by ignoring the concerns of their constituents. The events across Europe right now (in terms of the rise in Nationalist sentiments) have been a long time coming.

scbriml wrote:

It's not quite that simple though, is it? As far as the Spanish government is concerned, the independence vote is illegal and the police are enforcing the law.

So too were the Declaration of Independence and the Easter Rising. In the latter case, the British forces were enforcing their laws when they executed some of those involved in the conspiracy.

KLDC10 wrote:

The situation with Scotland is very different to that of Catalonia. Although a member of the UK, Scotland is a separate country bound by the Act of Union of 1707. The independence referendum of 2014 required the approval of Parliament before it could take place.

Catalonia seeking independence from Spain is akin to the county of Surrey seeking independence from the UK. Surrey County Council could approve an independence vote, but it would be completely illegal.

It isn't that different. It's somewhere between the two examples you pointed to. Yes, Scotland is technically a separate country, which means there isn't a direct equivalency between Scotland and Catalonia. However, it is nothing like the UK and Surrey.

Catalonia is officially recognized as an "Autonomous Community" of Spain. It is made up of four provinces, of which Barcelona is one. Those provinces are more directly comparable to an English county than the region itself. So if this was Girona attempting to secede from Spain, I'd agree with you, but it isn't, it's the entire region which, like Scotland, has a devolved government. It is far closer in nature to Scotland than it is to Surrey.

Dutchy wrote:

This is escalating very quickly, no point in doing this by both sides of this. They need to have an open and frank discussion about this. Going through with this referendum was an escalation as is the Spanish central government's response, an absolute overkill and will solve nothing.

Charles Michel, the Belgian PM, has said as much on Twitter: https://twitter.com/CharlesMichel/statu ... 1553040384
Though at the moment he is one of only a few international leaders to have condemned the violence.

scbriml wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

This is disgraceful. All they are trying to do is vote.

It's not quite that simple though, is it? As far as the Spanish government is concerned, the independence vote is illegal and the police are enforcing the law.

KLDC10 wrote:

I do not see why Spain could not have followed the lead of the United Kingdom and had a full, open and frank national conversation about independence

The situation with Scotland is very different to that of Catalonia. Although a member of the UK, Scotland is a separate country bound by the Act of Union of 1707. The independence referendum of 2014 required the approval of Parliament before it could take place.

Catalonia seeking independence from Spain is akin to the county of Surrey seeking independence from the UK. Surrey County Council could approve an independence vote, but it would be completely illegal.

Surrey is probably not the right example as Catalonia has much more powers than any regions of England, with its own parliament and government. In addition, like in Scotland, there was a union between Catalonia (which was part of the Crown of Aragon) and the Kingdom of Castile (Spain). The same Kingdom ended the autonomy of Catalonia with a centralized Spanish rule. The Spanish kingdom broke its promise. Suspending unilaterally all Catalonian institutions, thereby imposing a centralized government by force was illegal. Spain created this mess with a series of illegal actions against Catalonia. How Catalonia's referendum would be more illegal than Spain's forced centralized government in the past ? At least Catalonia is allowing people to express their opinion.
Spain is not interested in having a constructive dialogue with Catalonia or any other Spanish regions unfortunately. Why would they change their aggressive tactics if they have always worked ?

What dialogue ? The only result wanted is independance....L

scbriml wrote:

As far as the Spanish government is concerned, the independence vote is illegal and the police are enforcing the law.

That's a lame excuse. Any government in principle acts to enforce its laws. The issue here how legitimate is such violent (overre)action?

Too bad the Spanish authorities are not so uncompromising when protecting EU's outer border.

The Catelan independence movement is hypocritical.

If you don't want to be part of Spain because you don't want to share your wealth with poorer regions then you should not want to be part of the EU either.

AeroVega wrote:

The Catelan independence movement is hypocritical.

If you don't want to be part of Spain because you don't want to share your wealth with poorer regions then you should not want to be part of the EU either.

And an independent Catalonia will not automatically be submitted to the EU. Just like Scotland for example.

Dutchy wrote:

AeroVega wrote:

The Catelan independence movement is hypocritical.

If you don't want to be part of Spain because you don't want to share your wealth with poorer regions then you should not want to be part of the EU either.

And an independent Catalonia will not automatically be submitted to the EU. Just like Scotland for example.

But you can argue that Scotland would have a strong case for rejoining the EU as they are being taken out of the EU against their will. The Catalans, on the other hand, would be taken out of the EU entirely because of their own actions.

Dutchy wrote:

AeroVega wrote:

The Catelan independence movement is hypocritical.

If you don't want to be part of Spain because you don't want to share your wealth with poorer regions then you should not want to be part of the EU either.

And an independent Catalonia will not automatically be submitted to the EU. Just like Scotland for example.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Spain have the power to veto any new members states? I think this came up shortly after the Brexit referendum with regards to a hypothetical independent Scotland. I can't see why Spain would want Catalonia to join the EU.

I also wonder what the Catelan football league would look like after Catelan indepence. FC Barcelona vs Girona FC on even weeks and Girona FC vs FC Barcelona on uneven weeks?

AeroVega wrote:

I also wonder what the Catelan football league would look like after Catelan indepence. FC Barcelona vs Girona FC on even weeks and Girona FC vs FC Barcelona on uneven weeks?

Since you mention FC Barcelona; here is their opinion on the issue: https://twitter.com/FCBarcelona/status/ ... 5654103041

KLDC10 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

AeroVega wrote:

The Catelan independence movement is hypocritical.

If you don't want to be part of Spain because you don't want to share your wealth with poorer regions then you should not want to be part of the EU either.

And an independent Catalonia will not automatically be submitted to the EU. Just like Scotland for example.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Spain have the power to veto any new members states? I think this came up shortly after the Brexit referendum with regards to a hypothetical independent Scotland. I can't see why Spain would want Catalonia to join the EU.

I think you are right, one of the area's where veto power is still in effect.

Dutchy wrote:

I think you are right, one of the area's where veto power is still in effect.

Here's the hypothetical issue I was thinking of: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/03/14 ... queue.html

It is reported that "any prospective application to the EU can be vetoed by any member"

Since we are talking about the EU here; I am surprised at how little we have heard from the leaders thereof with regards to this referendum and the violence that has ensued. I would suspect that they have been caught off guard by the way things have unfolded today and need time to prepare a balanced response.

KLDC10 wrote:

AeroVega wrote:

I also wonder what the Catelan football league would look like after Catelan indepence. FC Barcelona vs Girona FC on even weeks and Girona FC vs FC Barcelona on uneven weeks?

Since you mention FC Barcelona; here is their opinion on the issue: https://twitter.com/FCBarcelona/status/ ... 5654103041

That's not really an opinion on the issue of Catalan independence, though. Here's some more food for thought:

http://www.espnfc.com/spanish-primera-d ... s-minister

AeroVega wrote:

That's not really an opinion on the issue of Catalan independence, though. Here's some more food for thought:

http://www.espnfc.com/spanish-primera-d ... s-minister

You're right. It's a statement about the the right to freedom of expression, rather than an explicit endorsement of one side or the other. But in the context of the thread title, I still think it's a useful source

The article you posted is more detailed. However; I'm not particularly well-versed in how the Spanish football/soccer universe works. If I understand correctly, "La Liga" is the organization in which the top teams compete? And the Catalan referendum could jeopardize Barcelona's membership thereof? But the club manager and Catalan sports minister seem to think they could work something out per that article. "La Liga" would appear to think otherwise, however.

KLDC10 wrote:

I can't see why Spain would want Catalonia to join the EU.

They could and should. It would require the Spanish getting over themselves and part their ways with Catalonia in a peaceful manner.

KLDC10 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

I think you are right, one of the area's where veto power is still in effect.

Here's the hypothetical issue I was thinking of: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/03/14 ... queue.html

It is reported that "any prospective application to the EU can be vetoed by any member"

Since we are talking about the EU here; I am surprised at how little we have heard from the leaders thereof with regards to this referendum and the violence that has ensued. I would suspect that they have been caught off guard by the way things have unfolded today and need time to prepare a balanced response.

My guess is that the EU was thinking that smaller regions within EU countries would be less inclined to seek independence as more power moves to Brussels anyway.

Personally, as an EU citizen, I don't want any more countries with their own particular language in the EU. It is dysfunctional enough as it is already. Let's first settle on a common language so that we can do away with the massive waste caused by everything needing to be translated into 20 different languages.

L410Turbolet wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

I can't see why Spain would want Catalonia to join the EU.

They could and should. It would require the Spanish getting over themselves and part their ways with Catalonia in a peaceful manner.

I don't see much chance of a peaceful split. The events today have laid bare just how acrimonious relations are between Madrid and the devolved Catalan government.

KLDC10 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

I think you are right, one of the area's where veto power is still in effect.

Here's the hypothetical issue I was thinking of: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/03/14 ... queue.html

It is reported that "any prospective application to the EU can be vetoed by any member"

Since we are talking about the EU here; I am surprised at how little we have heard from the leaders thereof with regards to this referendum and the violence that has ensued. I would suspect that they have been caught off guard by the way things have unfolded today and need time to prepare a balanced response.

Well, it is an internal matter, so politicians are quite warry to say anything about it and if they do, they will be very diplomatic.

KLDC10 wrote:

Catalonia is officially recognized as an "Autonomous Community" of Spain. It is made up of four provinces, of which Barcelona is one. Those provinces are more directly comparable to an English county than the region itself. So if this was Girona attempting to secede from Spain, I'd agree with you, but it isn't, it's the entire region which, like Scotland, has a devolved government. It is far closer in nature to Scotland than it is to Surrey.

But that autonomy has been given/extended recently.

Spain has given autonomy in good faith, and this is the result. That's why the central government isn't ready to give anything more.

Exact same thing happening with Belgium, and they're both the countries with regions having the most autonomy.

Dutchy wrote:

Well, it is an internal matter, so politicians are quite warry to say anything about it and if they do, they will be very diplomatic.

I understand, but I would hope that they would follow the lead of the Belgian PM and call for an open dialogue between the two parties. There are plenty of videos available on the internet of the police acting violently with peaceful citizens. See this video for example: https://twitter.com/manelrainers/status ... 9197583362

In view of the way that the Spanish state has come down on the Catalan people with such an iron fist, I would have to say that the citizens have demonstrated remarkable restraint in continuing to be mostly peaceful and not retaliating to this appalling treatment. I realize that the EU must be sensitive about the issue given that Spain is a member state, but they also must condemn the violence.

L410Turbolet wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

I can't see why Spain would want Catalonia to join the EU.

They could and should. It would require the Spanish getting over themselves and part their ways with Catalonia in a peaceful manner.

I can agree with this, but is Catalonia prepared to pay more to Brussels than they are paying to Madrid now? Just like the EU demands that Britain pays for the damage caused by Brexit, I can imagine the EU / Spain will require Catalonia to pay for any damage caused by their independence on Spain.

Aesma wrote:

But that autonomy has been given/extended recently.

Spain has given autonomy in good faith, and this is the result. That's why the central government isn't ready to give anything more.

Exact same thing happening with Belgium, and they're both the countries with regions having the most autonomy.

I'm not really as familiar with Belgium, so I don't want to try to draw comparisons when I'm ignorant of the subject. So I'll bow to your superior knowledge about Belgium.

However, as a general principle, I agree that devolving power naturally means that the region in question will get a taste for that power and demand more - up until independence. It is the natural consequence of starting down the path that both Spain and the United Kingdom did. The UK reached the referendum first and dealt with it in a far more mature, grown-up manner than Spain is doing. Of course the UK did not want to see Scotland leave, but they realized that it would be better to take that risk while presenting their vision for the future of the British union. In the end, their vision won out over that of the would-be secessionists. People tend to be quite open to reasonable arguments about a subject.

AeroVega wrote:

L410Turbolet wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

I can't see why Spain would want Catalonia to join the EU.

They could and should. It would require the Spanish getting over themselves and part their ways with Catalonia in a peaceful manner.

I can agree with this, but is Catalonia prepared to pay more to Brussels than they are paying to Madrid now? Just like the EU demands that Britain pays for the damage caused by Brexit, I can imagine the EU / Spain will require Catalonia to pay for any damage caused by their independence on Spain.

Perhaps talk of EU membership is a little premature. If Catalonia does become independent then there are two problems with EU membership, which you have both respectively brought up:
1. Spanish opposition
2. New obligations and a potential erosion of their newly-gained sovereignty. It could well be that the Catalan government find the conditions for joining the EU unacceptable. But at the moment we cannot say for sure. So much is hypothetical and unknown.

Hi!

I dont even want independence of Catalonia, but Spain has still to go through year 1975.

Me, mother and aunt voted today even if it was quite an adventure doing it. I don't care about results, it's just the fact Spain don't let us vote, too much interests hidden (or not). People here are realy tired of being disparaged, I have lots family in Spain and again, don't want the independence, but something has to change.

I was lucky today and saw no incidents, but know some others (directly, not from the media), and it's sad, but it seems the only way to show what's going on.

Was votation illegal? Of course, but spanish laws and governtment didn't represent me from a long time ago, I'm just a quiet guy.

Let's see what's come next!

KLDC10 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Well, it is an internal matter, so politicians are quite warry to say anything about it and if they do, they will be very diplomatic.

I understand, but I would hope that they would follow the lead of the Belgian PM and call for an open dialogue between the two parties. There are plenty of videos available on the internet of the police acting violently with peaceful citizens. See this video for example: https://twitter.com/manelrainers/status ... 9197583362

In view of the way that the Spanish state has come down on the Catalan people with such an iron fist, I would have to say that the citizens have demonstrated remarkable restraint in continuing to be mostly peaceful and not retaliating to this appalling treatment. I realize that the EU must be sensitive about the issue given that Spain is a member state, but they also must condemn the violence.

Indeed I think they will call upon the parties to have a peaceful dialogue. And that is indeed needed. The response of the Madrid government is indeed extreme.

Dutch MP:

[quote=Sjoerd Sjoerdsma]Wat je ook denkt van het #CatalanReferendum, dit politiegeweld is volstrekt onacceptabel. Europese bemiddeling nodig![/quote]

Rough translation: Whatever you think about the CatalanRegefendum, this police violence is completely unacceptable. European mediation is needed.

https://twitter.com/swsjoerdsma/status/ ... 5631895558

KLDC10 wrote:

It could well be that the Catalan government find the conditions for joining the EU unacceptable. But at the moment we cannot say for sure. So much is hypothetical and unknown.

I don't think an independent Catalonia has much choice. Unlike Britain, Catalonia is in the Euro zone. Catalonia can't (officially) be in the Euro zone without being in the EU. Giving up the Euro and introducing their own currency would come at a massive cost for Catalonia. So much for independence...

The point of no return has passed. None of the two sides wants to lose face.

With the police brutality against those reckless terrorist voters the Spanish government has lost much more than they could win. Now, the Catalans will push much more for independence. Much more.

Well done, Mr. Rajoy.


David

I have no sympathy for Catalunyans.

Their actions are illegal and without justification in Spanish constitution.

Frankly, many of the local leaders should be arrested and charged with undermining democracy and attempting nothing more than a coup.

L410Turbolet wrote:

That's a lame excuse. Any government in principle acts to enforce its laws. The issue here how legitimate is such violent (overre)action?

Not lame at all. Plenty of examples of police enforcing the law of the land against civil unrest. Whether or not it's morally acceptable is another matter.

AeroVega wrote:

is Catalonia prepared to pay more to Brussels than they are paying to Madrid now?

That's up to Catalans to decide themselves. Independence has its benefits as well as costs. I don't see, however, why this should be anyone else's concern.

AeroVega wrote:

I can imagine the EU / Spain will require Catalonia to pay for any damage caused by their independence on Spain.

What damage? Damage on someone's ego? This is
almost guaranteed way to make any future relations complicated for years, even decades to come. Since this is a national issue, the EU should keep its nose out of this.

If this will accelerate any independence movement, will the French part also join? Catalunia's capital is Perpignan, not Barcelona.

I can understand Madrid's unwillingness to give way, they must still be traumatized by violent independence movement like the ETA.

I don't think they were ready

No they are not.

This fascist behavior has no place in the EU

But, will EU take part?

Catalonia seeking independence from Spain is akin to the county of Surrey seeking independence from the UK.

No situation is comaprable, not even Surrey, Wales, Ireland, Belgium...

The only result wanted is independance

Not at all... (some of us at least)

But that autonomy has been given/extended recently.

Just the opposite, we voted an "estatut" and tribunals cut it down.

Since you mention FC Barcelona

Please, let it disappear, we will save lots of money.

AeroVega wrote:

I don't think an independent Catalonia has much choice. Unlike Britain, Catalonia is in the Euro zone. Catalonia can't (officially) be in the Euro zone without being in the EU. Giving up the Euro and introducing their own currency would come at a massive cost for Catalonia. So much for independence...

That may well be true. Although the hurdles to membership are numerous.

flyingturtle wrote:

The point of no return has passed. None of the two sides wants to lose face.

Well done, Mr. Rajoy.

David

Precisely. The government has only succeeded in stoking resentment and increasing support for independence. They have handled the situation horribly.

Dutchy wrote:

Dutch MP:

Wat je ook denkt van het #CatalanReferendum, dit politiegeweld is volstrekt onacceptabel. Europese bemiddeling nodig!

Rough translation: Whatever you think about the CatalanRegefendum, this police violence is completely unacceptable. European mediation is needed.

https://twitter.com/swsjoerdsma/status/ ... 5631895558

Agreed, but this needs to happen quickly. The EU should immediately put forth the offer of mediation with two conditions;
1. That Madrid withdraws the National Police from Catalonia
2. That Catalonia does not unilaterally declare independence.
I fear that some kind of unilateral declaration is coming which will make mediation all the more difficult. Action is required now to prevent things from getting worse than they already are.

L410Turbolet wrote:

What damage?.

Perhaps it helps to remind you that one of the main reasons why Catalonia wants to leave Spain is that they (richest region of the country) do not want to subsidize the rest of Spain. Catalonia leaving will cause major financial damage to the rest of Spain and therefore the rest of the EU (think Greece-style bailout).

It's like Spanish National Police wants to be seen as an occupying force of thugs or something.

Aesma wrote:

Spain has given autonomy in good faith, and this is the result. That's why the central government isn't ready to give anything more.

Spain has done nothing resembling giving autonomy in good faith in recent years. Under PM José Luis Zapatero, Spain and Catalonia did negotiate a comprehensive agreement giving Catalonia significant self-governance. The Spanish supreme court annulled the agreement in 2010, and since becoming PM in 2011, Mariano Rajoy has been at best mildly interested in revisiting the issue. He'd rather threaten Scotland with vetoing EU membership to try and intimidate Catalonia than sit down and talk.

I have no position on whether Catalonia should be independent, but if there is one person who bears most of the blame for the current situation, it would be Mariano Rajoy and his "good faith" efforts.

blueflyer wrote:

Spain and Catalonia did negotiate a comprehensive agreement giving Catalonia significant self-governance.

Would you be able to comment on the difference between Catalonia's situation and Basque country? I read somewhere that Basque country has a higher level of autonomy than Catalonia. Couldn't Catalonia get the same deal?

In another astonishing twist, the police are seen here attacking firefighters: https://twitter.com/PaddyMcKenna/status ... 8922686464

AeroVega wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

It could well be that the Catalan government find the conditions for joining the EU unacceptable. But at the moment we cannot say for sure. So much is hypothetical and unknown.

I don't think an independent Catalonia has much choice. Unlike Britain, Catalonia is in the Euro zone. Catalonia can't (officially) be in the Euro zone without being in the EU. Giving up the Euro and introducing their own currency would come at a massive cost for Catalonia. So much for independence...

There are a couple of non-EU countries using the euro, with (microstates) or without (Montenegro and Kosovo) permission from the EU. So an independent Catalonia could probably continue to use the euro.

KLDC10 wrote:

In another astonishing twist, the police are seen here attacking firefighters: https://twitter.com/PaddyMcKenna/status ... 8922686464

"Uh, huh, maybe we're on the wrong path when we have to beat up women, firefighters and other non-violent people."


David

These events have changed Spain forever. Spain will never be the same again after Oct 1, 2017.

This will be remembered for hundreds of years just like Tiananmen Square 1989, Budapest 1956, Crystal Night 1938, and even Stockholm Bloodbath 1520.

Just imagine the outcry if this had happened in for instance North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela.

It is just unbelievable how come that Spain couldn't just declare the thing unconstitutional and let the courtrooms work from there.

Screw the Catalonians, frankly - most arrogant people in the entirety of Europe (which is a high bar, when you have the Castillians right next door), as their current actions demonstrate. What have they ever achieved as a nation, other than try to import communism to the Iberian Peninsula?