prebennorholm wrote:

This will be remembered for hundreds of years just like Tiananmen Square 1989, Budapest 1956, Crystal Night 1938, and even Stockholm Bloodbath 1520.

.

I think that is a bit much to compare todays events to the above. Tianamen Square hundreds were murdered likewise Kristallnacht. Lets not over react on that scale !

The refendum was illegal. Personally I think they should have let them have it then declared it invalid. What Spain did today was heavy handed and they lost a lot of credibility. Scenes of elderly people being beaten and bleeding was a sad day for Spanish democracy. It is simply unacceptable for this to be allowed in a EU country in 2017. Note the lack of response from the rest of the EU by the way.

It seems just over 2 million votes were cast ( according to the Catalan authorities ) and of those 90% voted Yes. Keeping in mind over 5 million voters are in that region of Spain. Then of course you have those who are Catalans who want to remain Spanish. So we really do not have a reliable figure on the true results should there be an official referendum.

Pyrex wrote:

What have they ever achieved as a nation, other than try to import communism to the Iberian Peninsula?

I'm not sure their political leanings are relevant here. I'm a strong conservative myself, and I'm horrified by the scenes which have unfolded today. Self-determination is self-determination whether they're left or right wing. That issue is completely different to who the Catalans might elect to represent them.

Apparently this was a coup against Spanish democracy, and a coup against Europe.

According to Ramon Luis Valcarcel, who is apparently a Vice President of the European Parliament.

Pure and simple, this was police brutality and could of been handled far better!

OA260 wrote:

prebennorholm wrote:

This will be remembered for hundreds of years just like Tiananmen Square 1989, Budapest 1956, Crystal Night 1938, and even Stockholm Bloodbath 1520.

I think that is a bit much to compare todays events to the above. Tianamen Square hundreds were murdered likewise Kristallnacht. Lets not over react on that scale !

I didn't intend to compare the magnitude of this event with Tiananmen Square etc. I compared how it will be remembered by history. We expect entirely different standards by what is supposed to be a modern age democratic European country, an EU country !

When did it last time happen that an EU country acted like this when millions of their citizens went to express an opinion with pen and paper? This is a first timer, and hopefully a last timer as well. Therefore it will be remembered in the history books the same way as some of the worst events in some of the worst totalitarian countries. While if it happened in a totalitarian country today, it would create an outcry, and be forgotten the day after tomorrow.

OA260 wrote:

prebennorholm wrote:

This will be remembered for hundreds of years just like Tiananmen Square 1989, Budapest 1956, Crystal Night 1938, and even Stockholm Bloodbath 1520.

.

I think that is a bit much to compare todays events to the above. Tianamen Square hundreds were murdered likewise Kristallnacht. Lets not over react on that scale !

The refendum was illegal. Personally I think they should have let them have it then declared it invalid. What Spain did today was heavy handed and they lost a lot of credibility. Scenes of elderly people being beaten and bleeding was a sad day for Spanish democracy. It is simply unacceptable for this to be allowed in a EU country in 2017. Note the lack of response from the rest of the EU by the way.

It seems just over 2 million votes were cast ( according to the Catalan authorities ) and of those 90% voted Yes. Keeping in mind over 5 million voters are in that region of Spain. Then of course you have those who are Catalans who want to remain Spanish. So we really do not have a reliable figure on the true results should there be an official referendum.

The last couples of illegal referenda that have happened in the world have resulted in immediate independence/annexation, despite people voting at gunpoint, so I understand why a government wouldn't want the referendum to happen at all.

With all the disruption caused by the central government, there is no way I can believe in that number of 2 million voters, it seems highly inflated.

That was the European Tiananmen Square massacre. Every European now stands behind Catalunya and their independence.90% in favour is clear vote and the declaration of independence should come today.

seahawk wrote:

That was the European Tiananmen Square massacre. Every European now stands behind Catalunya and their independence.90% in favour is clear vote and the declaration of independence should come today.

Don't be overly dramatic. Only 50% showed up, so that should put things in perspective for you. I am European, and I am not outspoken if Catalunya should be a separate country, so therefore your statement fails

KLDC10 wrote:

I'm not really as familiar with Belgium, so I don't want to try to draw comparisons when I'm ignorant of the subject. So I'll bow to your superior knowledge about Belgium.

Comparing Belgium to Scotland or Catalonia is flawed.

- Hard to put a figure on it but in Belgium you'd struggle to find 30% of Flemish in strong favour of secession. In Scotland and Catalonia both groups are at least on par. There's a sizable number of Flemish who want to return to a unitary state and undo the past federalisation proces, precisely because such federations are complex to manage. Corrent state of affairs of EU.
- Brussels is an autonomous cosmopolitan enclave entirely on Flemish soil with its own identity and therefore close to impossible to separate without bloodshed. You can compare this with London culturaly completely different from the rest if the UK. Nobody in Belgium apart from a handful of people you really want to avoid want that to happen.
- Brussels is the defacto capital of Europe. Don't need to draw a picture what effect that would have on the EU as a whole.
- French as a language has lost a lot of its feathers both in Belgium as well as at a worldstage. In Brussels itself it is under pressure both by the foreign English speaking elite (EU-officials, executives of multinationals) and low-end immigration. Some are contemplating to make English official, both use of Arabic and Dutch (official) is on the rise there. Lack of Dutch medium schools is cronic, 50 years ago completely unthinkable.

Not hard to understand that a secession would mean a big loss for Flanders and a total disaster, possibly break-up, absorption of Wallonia by France of Wallonia. No right-minded NVA (flemish nationalists) would comit political suicide by calling for a referendum.

There are the obvious similarities though (Flanders vs Wallonia and Catalonia vs wider Spain).
- Historical disrespect of an economically weaker region onto a strong economic region.
- Economic hegemonic forces of the economically strong region onto the weaker.

Dutchy wrote:

seahawk wrote:

That was the European Tiananmen Square massacre. Every European now stands behind Catalunya and their independence.90% in favour is clear vote and the declaration of independence should come today.

Don't be overly dramatic. Only 50% showed up, so that should put things in perspective for you. I am European, and I am not outspoken if Catalunya should be a separate country, so therefore your statement fails

given the amount of repression and threats used to deter people from voting, the 46 or so percent that showed up are an amazing outcome. Those people literally risked their health and freedom to go vote. Even if you assume that most people that obtained from voting had voted "no", "yes" would still be the outcome. Brexit hat "Leave" with a total support of 37.5%, yesterdays "leave" had a total support of 41.4%. So, Katalan independence has a much better result than the Brexit. And this vote had two clear options, the Brexit vote had three options rollend into one. So, if there is a democratic mandate for the Brexit, there sure as hell is one for Independence in this case.

KLDC10 wrote:

I'm not sure their political leanings are relevant here. I'm a strong conservative myself, and I'm horrified by the scenes which have unfolded today. Self-determination is self-determination whether they're left or right wing. That issue is completely different to who the Catalans might elect to represent them.

This is probably the first time i find myself in agreement with you. Either we support self determination or we don´t. If some part of a nation wants to become independent, stopping them isn´t an option, working together to reduce negative effects is the way to go, and where i stand it is the only legal way.

best regards
Thomas

Dutchy wrote:

seahawk wrote:

That was the European Tiananmen Square massacre. Every European now stands behind Catalunya and their independence.90% in favour is clear vote and the declaration of independence should come today.

Don't be overly dramatic. Only 50% showed up, so that should put things in perspective for you. I am European, and I am not outspoken if Catalunya should be a separate country, so therefore your statement fails

A clearer result than the Brexit and that with voters facing the risk of being massacred by the armed police. From today on Europe welcomes the Republic of Catalunya.

tommy1808 wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

I'm not sure their political leanings are relevant here. I'm a strong conservative myself, and I'm horrified by the scenes which have unfolded today. Self-determination is self-determination whether they're left or right wing. That issue is completely different to who the Catalans might elect to represent them.

This is probably the first time i find myself in agreement with you. Either we support self determination or we don´t. If some part of a nation wants to become independent, stopping them isn´t an option, working together to reduce negative effects is the way to go, and where i stand it is the only legal way.

It is a tricky issue, independence of a region. Should be done by a referendum which both sides have an equal opportunity to inform the citizens about the pro's and con's and a long work-up towards this referendum and there should be a peaceful atmosphere.

seahawk wrote:

That was the European Tiananmen Square massacre. Every European now stands behind Catalunya and their independence.90% in favour is clear vote and the declaration of independence should come today.

No it was nothing like Tiananman Square and comparing it as such is disrespectful to the hundreds that were murdered by the Chinese state.

The results were 90% of a very small minority who chose/managed to vote in an illegal referendum.

Dutchy wrote:

It is a tricky issue, independence of a region. Should be done by a referendum which both sides have an equal opportunity to inform the citizens about the pro's and con's and a long work-up towards this referendum and there should be a peaceful atmosphere.

In deed, that is what should be done and how the Spanish Government should have handled things. But when that option doesn´t exist, stuff has to be unilaterally.

best regards
Thomas

seahawk wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

seahawk wrote:

That was the European Tiananmen Square massacre. Every European now stands behind Catalunya and their independence.90% in favour is clear vote and the declaration of independence should come today.

Don't be overly dramatic. Only 50% showed up, so that should put things in perspective for you. I am European, and I am not outspoken if Catalunya should be a separate country, so therefore your statement fails

A clearer result than the Brexit and that with voters facing the risk of being massacred by the armed police. From today on Europe welcomes the Republic of Catalunya.

Except Europe and the EU do not. As we have seen the EU have not bothered to make any meaningful statements.

OA260 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

That was the European Tiananmen Square massacre. Every European now stands behind Catalunya and their independence.90% in favour is clear vote and the declaration of independence should come today.

No it was nothing like Tiananman Square and comparing it as such is disrespectful to the hundreds that were murdered by the Chinese state.

The results were 90% of a very small minority who chose/managed to vote in an illegal referendum.

No it is worse. China at the time was a communist dictatorship, while Spain claims to a democracy, but still let the black clad goon squads of the Guardia Civil beat up the brave voters.

seahawk wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

seahawk wrote:

That was the European Tiananmen Square massacre. Every European now stands behind Catalunya and their independence.90% in favour is clear vote and the declaration of independence should come today.

Don't be overly dramatic. Only 50% showed up, so that should put things in perspective for you. I am European, and I am not outspoken if Catalunya should be a separate country, so therefore your statement fails

A clearer result than the Brexit and that with voters facing the risk of being massacred by the armed police. From today on Europe welcomes the Republic of Catalunya.

With people on camera being able to vote multiple times? Without a clear-cut census? It was a nice display, but not a referendum.

Not when the Catalan govt. failed to get the needed 2/3 majority in their own parliament to pass a law, so it's no wonder a judge shot the wannabe referendum down. Of course Rajoy's government is responsible for the police tactics, and the joint police chief should resign in shame. But that won't happen either, and both extremes will just reinforce each other as usual.

JJJ wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Don't be overly dramatic. Only 50% showed up, so that should put things in perspective for you. I am European, and I am not outspoken if Catalunya should be a separate country, so therefore your statement fails

A clearer result than the Brexit and that with voters facing the risk of being massacred by the armed police. From today on Europe welcomes the Republic of Catalunya.

With people on camera being able to vote multiple times? Without a clear-cut census? It was a nice display, but not a referendum.

Not when the Catalan govt. failed to get the needed 2/3 majority in their own parliament to pass a law, so it's no wonder a judge shot the wannabe referendum down. Of course Rajoy's government is responsible for the police tactics, and the joint police chief should resign in shame. But that won't happen either, and both extremes will just reinforce each other as usual.

BINGO . Home printed ballot papers and ID rarely checked and able to cast that at any polling station. If this were a referendum in Africa it would be deemed null and void by the International community. The lack of statements from leaders like Merkel and other key EU players speak volumes.

OA260 wrote:

BINGO . Home printed ballot papers and ID rarely checked and able to cast that at any polling station. If this were a referendum in Africa it would be deemed null and void by the International community. The lack of statements from leaders like Merkel and other key EU players speak volumes.

unfortunately the Spanish governments actions have made it a legal vote. If the vote had been illegal, there would have been no reason to send cops down to prevent it.

best regards
Thomas

The brutality of the Spanish forces has given the result a moral legitimation that can not be removed.

tommy1808 wrote:

OA260 wrote:

BINGO . Home printed ballot papers and ID rarely checked and able to cast that at any polling station. If this were a referendum in Africa it would be deemed null and void by the International community. The lack of statements from leaders like Merkel and other key EU players speak volumes.

unfortunately the Spanish governments actions have made it a legal vote. If the vote had been illegal, there would have been no reason to send cops down to prevent it.

best regards
Thomas

Sadly that may be a wish rather then fact. The International community so far deems it illegal as does the EU. If you can provide me a statement from the UN or EU to suggest otherwise then I would be interested to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgJeOcKkiXg

Spanish police stop a terrorist using an unmarked car lol

seahawk wrote:

The brutality of the Spanish forces has given the result a moral legitimation that can not be removed.

I would somewhat agree with you there but its morally not legally. A court would not rule it was a legally binding referendum.

OA260 wrote:

Sadly that may be a wish rather then fact. The International community so far deems it illegal as does the EU. If you can provide me a statement from the UN or EU to suggest otherwise then I would be interested to see.

Of course they won´t say that, but the Spanish government failed big time in this.

Either the vote is valid, in that case Spain has standing to prevent it, as it is illegal, or the vote is not valid, than the Spanish government just big league violated those peoples rights to peacefully assemble and associate. If the Spanish government wants to uphold its "this isn´t a vote" stance, they have to arrest, put on trial and lock up an bunch or their own troops for assault, battering, acts of terrorism, violation of private property and so on and so forth.

Edit: Article 12 - Freedom of assembly and of association

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association at all levels, in particular in political, trade union and civic matters, which implies the right of everyone to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his or her interests.
2. Political parties at Union level contribute to expressing the political will of the citizens of the Union.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

OA260 wrote:

Sadly that may be a wish rather then fact. The International community so far deems it illegal as does the EU. If you can provide me a statement from the UN or EU to suggest otherwise then I would be interested to see.

Of course they won´t say that, but the Spanish government failed big time in this.

best regards
Thomas

Yes they failed in the way they responded. As per my original post they should have let them have their peaceful protest then after declared the referendum void/illegal. They should not have sent in police to baton innocent people. It still does not make the vote legal though.

JJJ wrote:

With people on camera being able to vote multiple times? Without a clear-cut census? It was a nice display, but not a referendum.

Then your prime minister is an amateur politician because the way he handed the situation granted the separatists legitimacy and sympathies they would otherwise perhaps struggled to gain.
One does not need to be a genius to realize that armed police beating up and shooting people for daring nothing more than to exercise their voting rights will never look good on camera.

OA260 wrote:

The lack of statements from leaders like Merkel and other key EU players speak volumes.

[/quote]
They want to turn the EU into a centralized, unitary entity you can assume they are ok with this.

OA260 wrote:

It still does not make the vote legal though.

only if they toss those police men in jail, on terrorism charges. If they "knew" the vote is illegal, the would have to refuse their orders, or be treated as criminals.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

OA260 wrote:

It still does not make the vote legal though.

only if they toss those police men in jail, on terrorism charges. If they "knew" the vote is illegal, the would have to refuse their orders, or be treated as criminals.

best regards
Thomas

They could investigate the level of force used which was in my view excessive but again we need to be careful about emotional knee jerk reactions and using the words terrorism is certainly neither true nor level headed.

tommy1808 wrote:

OA260 wrote:

Sadly that may be a wish rather then fact. The International community so far deems it illegal as does the EU. If you can provide me a statement from the UN or EU to suggest otherwise then I would be interested to see.

Of course they won´t say that, but the Spanish government failed big time in this.

Either the vote is valid, in that case Spain has standing to prevent it, as it is illegal, or the vote is not valid, than the Spanish government just big league violated those peoples rights to peacefully assemble and associate. If the Spanish government wants to uphold its "this isn´t a vote" stance, they have to arrest, put on trial and lock up an bunch or their own troops for assault, battering, acts of terrorism, violation of private property and so on and so forth.

Edit: Article 12 - Freedom of assembly and of association

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association at all levels, in particular in political, trade union and civic matters, which implies the right of everyone to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his or her interests.
2. Political parties at Union level contribute to expressing the political will of the citizens of the Union.

best regards
Thomas

It is not black and white, considering the declaration of the Catalunyan government that they would declare independence 48 hours after a positive result. So even if Madrid rightfully says that the result is invalid, the whole process might still be illegal as it is a pretext to an illegal, by the Spanish constitution, declaration of independence.

In the end Madrid was played by Catalunya. there was no way Madrid could win the fight.If they let the vote go unchallenged, Catalunya would claim they did consent and accept the vote. If they use force to challenge it, it was clear that events that did happen would happen.

In the end the worrying thing imho is the way the Catalunyan side went ahead with the vote. They did not have a successful vote for it in parliament. They did ignore the rulings of judges in Catalunya which declared the vote illegal. The principle of the vote meant that they did not require a positive vote from over 50% of all voters eligible to vote, but only 50% from all votes cast. And finally you could download the ballots from the internet opening the wy for poeple to vote multiple times. In the end the process was anything but democratic.

OA260 wrote:

They could investigate the level of force used which was in my view excessive

If the vote wasn´t legal, every single police action against it was illegal.

but again we need to be careful about emotional knee jerk reactions and using the words terrorism is certainly neither true nor level headed.

There is nothing emotional about it:

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm
noun
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Was it unlawful: yes, since there is no law against assembly and association, and hence against opinion polls, which is all this was if it wasn´t a legal vote.
Did they use violence and intimidation: hell yes
Was it against civilian: another hell yes
Was it in pursuit of political aims? Oh yes.

That was an act of state sponsored terrorism.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

OA260 wrote:

They could investigate the level of force used which was in my view excessive

If the vote wasn´t legal, every single police action against it was illegal.

but again we need to be careful about emotional knee jerk reactions and using the words terrorism is certainly neither true nor level headed.

There is nothing emotional about it:

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm
noun
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Was it unlawful: yes, since there is no law against assembly and association, and hence against opinion polls, which is all this was if it wasn´t a legal vote.
Did they use violence and intimidation: hell yes
Was it against civilian: another hell yes
Was it in pursuit of political aims? Oh yes.

That was an act of state sponsored terrorism.

best regards
Thomas

So will the UN and EU not act then? Where are the statements from major EU leaders on this if this is indeed in violation of EU membership laws.

seahawk wrote:

It is not black and white, considering the declaration of the Catalunyan government that they would declare independence 48 hours after a positive result.

In that case they should have arrested the local government.

So even if Madrid rightfully says that the result is invalid, the whole process might still be illegal as it is a pretext to an illegal, by the Spanish constitution, declaration of independence.

They didn´t say the result is invalid, they say there was no vote. If there wasn´t a vote, nothing justifies the police action.

And finally you could download the ballots from the internet opening the wy for poeple to vote multiple times. In the end the process was anything but democratic.

They say they have a databse to sort out double votes, unless there is proof that double votes where counted, where and how people where able to toss a 2nd ballot in is irrelevant.

best regards
Thomas

How should a database do this? Here is a pic of the ballot: http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/this-is ... eferendum/

We know that people could download the ballot and could vote where they liked. So say a person goes to 3 places and each time enters 1 ballots, how would you know which 3 where from that person and which of the 3 is the valid one?

OA260 wrote:

So will the UN and EU not act then?

I do hope they will, or the EU isn´t a state of law.

Where are the statements from major EU leaders on this if this is indeed in violation of EU membership laws.

I have the feeling this is one of the cases where courts will have to explain to politicians that rights always apply.

No EU government can have it both ways, either the vote was illegal or the police action, can´t be both. The same is true the other way round. They should have the vote run its course and arrest the local government when they declare independence. Using terror to deter people from having an opinion poll isn´t an option.

best regards
Thomas

seahawk wrote:

We know that people could download the ballot and could vote where they liked. So say a person goes to 3 places and each time enters 1 ballots, how would you know which 3 where from that person and which of the 3 is the valid one?

The same way it is done in Germany, you write down who stopped by to drop a ballot and compare those registers after the fact. There is absolutely nothing preventing me from going from voting place to vote place, show my ID, get a ballot and cast it.

best regards
Thomas

Wrong. Every Wahllokal has a positive list of voters allowed to vote there.

If you are not on the positive list, you do not enter a ballot.

tommy1808 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

We know that people could download the ballot and could vote where they liked. So say a person goes to 3 places and each time enters 1 ballots, how would you know which 3 where from that person and which of the 3 is the valid one?

The same way it is done in Germany, you write down who stopped by to drop a ballot and compare those registers after the fact. There is absolutely nothing preventing me from going from voting place to vote place, show my ID, get a ballot and cast it.

best regards
Thomas

Seems a system open to abuse especially in this referendum. It would be bad enough trying to keep track of it without all the breeched boxes/polling stations. In Ireland/UK you go with your ID to a dedicated polling station and if your name is not on the list you will not be given a paper. Seems a much better system.

L410Turbolet wrote:

JJJ wrote:

With people on camera being able to vote multiple times? Without a clear-cut census? It was a nice display, but not a referendum.

Then your prime minister is an amateur politician because the way he handed the situation granted the separatists legitimacy and sympathies they would otherwise perhaps struggled to gain.
One does not need to be a genius to realize that armed police beating up and shooting people for daring nothing more than to exercise their voting rights will never look good on camera.

He is. A lot of people knew that and they still voted him in. Democracy is also the right to elect an inept leader.

The forces that clashed yesterday were set in motion long ago, though. The current government party sits on a tough national unity platform, which gives them plenty of electoral redit outside Catalonia, while the Catalans have elected progressively more hardcore independentists when their ever growing demand for special treatment ran them on the wrong side of the Constitutional court.

Compromise either way would hurt their respective voter base.

Which was his job, as the law passed in the parliament did not have the 2/3 majority in required.

OA260 wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

We know that people could download the ballot and could vote where they liked. So say a person goes to 3 places and each time enters 1 ballots, how would you know which 3 where from that person and which of the 3 is the valid one?

The same way it is done in Germany, you write down who stopped by to drop a ballot and compare those registers after the fact. There is absolutely nothing preventing me from going from voting place to vote place, show my ID, get a ballot and cast it.

best regards
Thomas

Seems a system open to abuse especially in this referendum. It would be bad enough trying to keep track of it without all the breeched boxes/polling stations. In Ireland/UK you go with your ID to a dedicated polling station and if your name is not on the list you will not be given a paper. Seems a much better system.

That was the original idea, but of course a judge blocked access to the central voter register (through the privacy law).

seahawk wrote:

Wrong. Every Wahllokal has a positive list of voters allowed to vote there.

If you are not on the positive list, you do not enter a ballot.

Not quite, you don´t have to be on the positive List. You need to be on the positive list or have a Wahlschein. You can get more than one Wahlschein by simply claiming you lost yours. From personal experience i know that you get a 2nd one without an eyebrow raised and a 3rd with a short explanation how you managed to lose two. Of course if you use more than one, they will notice and you´d be in big trouble, but you can easily cast more than one ballot.

best regards
Thomas

OA260 wrote:

Seems a much better system.

i oversimplified it in my statement. Since every voter is registered when he casts a ballot, double votes are easily figured out.

best regards
Thomas

OA260 wrote:

Seems a much better system.

i oversimplified it in my statement. Since every voter is registered when he casts a ballot, double votes are easily figured out.

best regards
Thomas

I'm a foreigner that's been living in Madrid a long time, I'm also very pro-union. The way the police acted and charged civilians today was absolutely disgraceful. The state has many mechanisms of power to ensure independence never happens, particularly financial weapons (why use tanks when you can use banks, after all).

Now, not every action by the police was unjustified and there certainly were cases of protesters trying to break the cordon, but today was clearly not about ensuring order and the safety of the Spanish people (which includes the Catalans).

Independence is still just the same pipe dream it always was and the vote was a complete farce but the state gave up a lot today in overplaying its hand and now everyone only cares about the police action and not how ridiculous the actual vote was (no guarantees, multiple votes, etc...)

Honestly just by doing nothing and getting another 90% yes result like 9-N, Madrid would have been fine.

prebennorholm wrote:

These events have changed Spain forever. Spain will never be the same again after Oct 1, 2017.

This will be remembered for hundreds of years just like Tiananmen Square 1989, Budapest 1956, Crystal Night 1938, and even Stockholm Bloodbath 1520.

Just imagine the outcry if this had happened in for instance North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela.

It is just unbelievable how come that Spain couldn't just declare the thing unconstitutional and let the courtrooms work from there.

Hyperbole much.

An illegal vote. An illegal attempt at a coup.

BestWestern wrote:

An illegal vote. An illegal attempt at a coup.

so all is peachy in China, the protest on Tiananmen Square and elsewhere in China was illegal too.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Wrong. Every Wahllokal has a positive list of voters allowed to vote there.

If you are not on the positive list, you do not enter a ballot.

Not quite, you don´t have to be on the positive List. You need to be on the positive list or have a Wahlschein. You can get more than one Wahlschein by simply claiming you lost yours. From personal experience i know that you get a 2nd one without an eyebrow raised and a 3rd with a short explanation how you managed to lose two. Of course if you use more than one, they will notice and you´d be in big trouble, but you can easily cast more than one ballot.

best regards
Thomas

If you ask for a second the first ends up on a negative list and is separated from the valid votes if you do a Briefwahl, or rejected as invalid if you go to a polling station.

Breaking News : The European Union Commission has said that the referendum was illegal and they will not recognise it.

tommy1808 wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

An illegal vote. An illegal attempt at a coup.

so all is peachy in China, the protest on Tiananmen Square and elsewhere in China was illegal too.

best regards
Thomas

False equivalence.

BestWestern wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

An illegal vote. An illegal attempt at a coup.

so all is peachy in China, the protest on Tiananmen Square and elsewhere in China was illegal too.

best regards
Thomas

False equivalence.

Only in the sense that one is a regime that you'd expect to do it, while the other one pretends to uphold human rights.

But I know we will have to disagree on that one. Government has to be consistent, the Spanish government was not. They tried to crush an opinion poll with massive use of violence.

Best regards
Thomas

YokoTsuno wrote:

- Hard to put a figure on it but in Belgium you'd struggle to find 30% of Flemish in strong favour of secession. In Scotland and Catalonia both groups are at least on par. There's a sizable number of Flemish who want to return to a unitary state and undo the past federalisation proces, precisely because such federations are complex to manage. Corrent state of affairs of EU.
- Brussels is an autonomous cosmopolitan enclave entirely on Flemish soil with its own identity and therefore close to impossible to separate without bloodshed. You can compare this with London culturaly completely different from the rest if the UK. Nobody in Belgium apart from a handful of people you really want to avoid want that to happen.
- Brussels is the defacto capital of Europe. Don't need to draw a picture what effect that would have on the EU as a whole.
- French as a language has lost a lot of its feathers both in Belgium as well as at a worldstage. In Brussels itself it is under pressure both by the foreign English speaking elite (EU-officials, executives of multinationals) and low-end immigration. Some are contemplating to make English official, both use of Arabic and Dutch (official) is on the rise there. Lack of Dutch medium schools is cronic, 50 years ago completely unthinkable.

Not hard to understand that a secession would mean a big loss for Flanders and a total disaster, possibly break-up, absorption of Wallonia by France of Wallonia. No right-minded NVA (flemish nationalists) would comit political suicide by calling for a referendum.

There are the obvious similarities though (Flanders vs Wallonia and Catalonia vs wider Spain).
- Historical disrespect of an economically weaker region onto a strong economic region.
- Economic hegemonic forces of the economically strong region onto the weaker.

Thanks for taking the time to help us understand the situation in Belgium. Much appreciated

tommy1808 wrote:

This is probably the first time i find myself in agreement with you. Either we support self determination or we don´t. If some part of a nation wants to become independent, stopping them isn´t an option, working together to reduce negative effects is the way to go, and where i stand it is the only legal way.

Mark the date! It may never happen again
But seriously; I agree with what you have written - some sort of legal framework should be put in place to mitigate the effects of Catalan secession and manage the situation afterwards. The current situation is entirely unsustainable, so things will have to change. I suspect, however, that for Madrid that will mean more centralized government, which will only increase resentment.

Dutchy wrote:

It is a tricky issue, independence of a region. Should be done by a referendum which both sides have an equal opportunity to inform the citizens about the pro's and con's and a long work-up towards this referendum and there should be a peaceful atmosphere.

Exactly. This is what happened with Scotland. Both sides were able to put forward their arguments. If we would like to go even further back in history, then the same thing happened in Quebec in 1980. Granted, the situation in 1995 was considerably more tense, but the fact is that arguments were made and people got a vote.