flyguy89
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:48 pm

There is no doubt that the principle of self-determination for a group of people is an important one in preserving peace and freedom. Catalans certainly have a right to decide if they want to remain with Spain. That said, such a major decision should require more than a simple plurality of votes to decide. The fact that secessionists are willing to forcefully drag half their fellow citizens along with them...none the least the fact that they think it prudent/good policy to start a new country with half of its new citizens against its very existence, makes me have very little sympathy for the secessionists.

VSMUT wrote:
Finally, if we actually started doing the sensible thing and began splitting up countries according to ethnicity rather than ill-prepared Colonial plans, then we could probably eradicate a majority of conflicts in the world.

Right, which I guess is why the Europe of hundreds of years ago which was set up along the ethnic lines you suggest was so conflict-free :roll:

KarelXWB wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The EU doesn't want Spain to split up, but don't think for one moment that they wouldn't invite Catalonia in for discussions about membership as soon as it happened. Catalonia is too big, centrally located and economically important to ignore them. Barcelona is the 4th largest metropolitan area in the EU according to Eurostat. Even without the big banks and corporations, thats a tremendous economy in itself. Now if we were talking Asturias or Navarre, then yes, the EU would probably ignore them.


There is little to discuss. A country can join the EU only if all 28 members agree on the membership. Spain however will vote veto, meaning Catalonia has zero chance of joining.

Not just Spain, but France (remember, Catalonia extends into present-day France), Belgium and Italy...any country with nascent-to-active secession movements would be against their EU admittance.

helhem wrote:
The Eu should not be used as a whip to keep everyone in line politically. It is like that on every political level. Or to bully small member states. I look at you Spain.

I would agree with you, however EU membership is nearly always included in the argument of secessionists.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:06 pm

seahawk wrote:
Russia should recognize Catalunya.


And Israel.

The US could cut an arms deal with the new nation. We're good at aiding in Civil Wars.

We just don't know which is the right side to be on sometimes.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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albertocsc
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:42 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
and soon enough there is no more Spain.


So I'll be back in the Toledo Kingdom with MAD, ABC and CQM as the main airports. :lol:
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:50 am

I was just at dinner tonight in Miami with a bunch of friends - one couple there, their son is off to study for a Semester in Germany.
They weren’t sure about the town he was studying in, but I said - well its near Frankfurt and he can travel all over Europe easily and cheaply, and see fun places like Paris, London, Berlin, and the other fun cities like Barcelona.... and they stopped me right there and said - oh no, he won’t be allowed to go there. After what’s going on there, he can’t go. And imagine if this conversation is happening all over the world, watching what’s going on - this could have bad consequences for what I and many consider to be such a lovely, vibrant cosmopolitan city.

I hope everyone comes to their senses and reaches an amicable solution soon - a Barcelona declining and failing is no good for anyone, least of all Madrid!
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:14 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
And imagine if this conversation is happening all over the world, watching what’s going on - this could have bad consequences for what I and many consider to be such a lovely, vibrant cosmopolitan city.

Yapp, that’s how it starts. Soon you will see the impacts on the travel statistics...

BCal Dc10 wrote:
I hope everyone comes to their senses and reaches an amicable solution soon - a Barcelona declining and failing is no good for anyone, least of all Madrid!

I am really surprised, all weekend long I expected some demonstrations or even worse. But so far? Nothing! :scratchchin:
 
tu204
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:52 am

This can of worms was opened with Kosovo a decade ago.

Thats it. After that there are no longer any norms of "international law" that govern anything to do on how one subject of a nation elects to leave that said nation.

Should have listened to Putin back then when he said that you have no clue as to the consequences of those actions.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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OA260
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:00 am

N14AZ wrote:
Yapp, that’s how it starts. Soon you will see the impacts on the travel statistics...



It has already started. Various cruise lines are telling passengers not to do their own tours and are putting travel advice leaflets in cabins before arriving into Barcelona.



Catalonia tourism slumps 15% since referendum violence

Terror attacks scarcely dent tourist numbers but images of police and rallies around independence poll have taken toll

Tourism to Catalonia has slumped by 15% in the two weeks since the region’s controversial referendum on independence, according to industry experts.

August’s terror attacks in Barcelona and the seaside resort of Cambrils, which left 16 people dead, scarcely dented tourist numbers, but images of police violence and huge rallies around the 1 October vote on independence are taking their toll.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... m-violence
 
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Aesma
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:42 am

tu204 wrote:
This can of worms was opened with Kosovo a decade ago.

Thats it. After that there are no longer any norms of "international law" that govern anything to do on how one subject of a nation elects to leave that said nation.

Should have listened to Putin back then when he said that you have no clue as to the consequences of those actions.


People in Kosovo were clearly suppressed by the central Serbian power, cultural cleansing was going on, leading to a civil war. Catalonia on the contrary got its culture back after the end of Franco, to the point that it is now suppressing its Spanish heritage. Two very different situations.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AeroVega
Posts: 150
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:23 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
There is a lot to indicate that only a minority of die-hard independence seekers bothered to turn up, and that minority now gets to decide the fate of the entire region. .


Like those hundreds of thousands people currently protesting the declaration of independence in the streets of Barcelona?

Oh wait... they don't exist....

Best regards
Thomas


Oh wait... they do...

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/29/cata ... 33244.html
 
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OA260
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:10 pm

Asylum for Carles Puigdemont in Belgium 'not unrealistic'

Belgium has angered Spain in the past by refusing to hand over people suspected of involvement with Basque separatist group ETA.

Granting Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont political asylum in Belgium is "not unrealistic", the Belgian migration minister has said.

The Spain government sacked Mr Puigdemont and dismissed the region's parliament on Friday hours after members voted to declare Catalonia an independent nation.

Mr Puigdemont himself faces arrest on charges of "rebellion" over the independence referendum, which has been declared illegal by Spanish courts.

http://news.sky.com/story/asylum-for-ca ... c-11104132

----

'Silent majority' rejects Catalan independence

Hundreds of thousands of Catalans have protested against independence from Spain.

http://news.sky.com/video/silent-majori ... e-11105041
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:26 pm

AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
There is a lot to indicate that only a minority of die-hard independence seekers bothered to turn up, and that minority now gets to decide the fate of the entire region. .


Like those hundreds of thousands people currently protesting the declaration of independence in the streets of Barcelona?

Oh wait... they don't exist....

Best regards
Thomas


Oh wait... they do...

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/29/cata ... 33244.html

I find it interesting that over the past few weeks when the situation escalated the pro-Spain rallies have been either larger or much larger than the pro-Independence ones.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:56 pm

OA260 wrote:
Belgium has angered Spain in the past by refusing to hand over people suspected of involvement with Basque separatist group ETA.

Granting Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont political asylum in Belgium is "not unrealistic", the Belgian migration minister has said.


The two situations are not comparable. If people are only suspected, they can argue that they will get an unfair treatment.

There is no doubt Puigdemont is guilty, on the other hand.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:16 am

No, he's suspected of being guilty and might get unfair treatment in a trial.

See what I did there?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3358
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:43 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
No, he's suspected of being guilty and might get unfair treatment in a trial.

See what I did there?


Which is rather idiotic because the ultimate court Puigdemont would have recourse is the ECHR. The same ECHR Belgium is subject to and doesn't consider unfair.

This was just a twitter slip from a Flemish nationalist leader that had cultivated ties with Catalan nationalists before, he was quickly shut down by the Belgian PM Charles Michel.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:31 am

Belgium has in that way confirmed 2 things. First Catalans are oppressed in Spain and they are subject to prosecution based on their political ideals. Therefore Spain is an oppressor.
 
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OA260
Posts: 23669
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:14 am

seahawk wrote:
Belgium has in that way confirmed 2 things. First Catalans are oppressed in Spain and they are subject to prosecution based on their political ideals. Therefore Spain is an oppressor.


They enjoy the greatest freedoms of self government in the world. To suggest otherwise is like saying Jews are still persecuted by the German state or that the Irish are still persecuted in NI.

Interesting reading and facts :


Catalonia: The irresponsibility of separatism

It is the Catalan regional government, not Madrid, that is putting the prosperity and autonomy of Catalonia at risk.

Catalonia is experiencing tense and uncertain times. In the last month, the regional government - made up of a coalition of nationalist parties called Junts pel Si (Together for yes) and supported in the regional parliament by an anti-establishment and Eurosceptic party (the Popular Unity Candidacy, CUP) - has decided to press ahead with its separatist project at all costs. Its ambition is not only in violation of the Spanish constitution and the Catalan autonomy statute, but does not even have the support of the majority of Catalans.

The nationalists' razor-thin parliamentary majority in the Catalan Parliament does not mean that separatists have won the popular vote in the region. Rather, their majority is the result of an electoral law based on corrected proportional representation that benefits the least populated provinces (the vote of a citizen of the province of Lleida or Girona, for example, is worth double that of one in the province of Barcelona, by far the most populated province).

However, the Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont, is prepared to secede on the basis of the most recent regional elections in 2015, in which separatist parties only won 47.8 percent of the vote, and an attempted referendum held on October 1, despite being suspended by the Constitutional Court, with no democratic guarantees, no existing law and no electoral authority to validate the results. It goes without saying that this pseudo-referendum also did not meet any of the main requirements set by the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe (pdf), which sets the standards for referendums taking place in Europe.

With 37.8 percent of the electorate voting "yes" (only 42 percent of registered voters participated in the referendum and 90 percent of those voted "yes", according to the questionable results provided by the regional government itself) on October 10, Puigdemont appeared before the Catalan Parliament and made an illusory proclamation of independence. However, he immediately suspended its effects, demanding that the Spanish government accept international mediation to find a solution to the "conflict" as though, instead of an internal matter that should be addressed within the framework of the Spanish constitution, it were a dispute between two sovereign states or a struggle as bitter as Colombia's with the FARC guerrillas.

The mere suggestion of international mediation is offensive because Catalonia is not a colony, but one of the most affluent regions of Spain, which enjoys the highest quality of life in the country and in Europe. It is also one of the regions that enjoys the greatest level of self-government in the world. The former prime minister of France, Manuel Valls, who is of Catalan descent, pointed this out recently. "Catalonia has regional powers unthinkable in France," Valls said. "There is genuine autonomy that is respected by Spain."

For example, the only medium of instruction in schools in Catalonia is Catalan, whereas Spanish is taught for only two hours a week. As a result, Catalonia has the dubious honour of being the only place in the Western world where the majority of the population do not even have the option of enrolling their children in schools that teach in their native language, Spanish. This high level of self-government was apparent when the Catalan regional police (Mossos d'Esquadra) took charge of the investigation into the terrorist attack that took place in Barcelona on August 17.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 25562.html
 
BestWestern
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:18 am

The Catalan leader deserves to be charged and imprisioned for his failed coup d’etat.

He is an example of a politician that allowed his rhetoric and ego to take over his brain. This has probably set back the path to independence for catalunya by a generation.

In comparison to the Scotland referendum, Catalan arrogance has already damaged the city of Barcelona with companies rehousing themselves to Madrid.

Madrid is in someways being very mature. Away from the choreographed protests, Russian social media bots and ‘stuff the ballot boxes’ referendum, Madrid has stayed cool and calm. Most other countries would have clamped down a lot harder and viciously with a coup taking place. Look at turkey, for example.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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OA260
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:59 pm

Mr. Pugidemont has flown to Brussels various news outlets are reporting along with 14 other members. This could get interesting.
 
Olddog
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:40 pm

What happened to good old revolucion hasta la muerte ?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Aesma
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:25 pm

Personally I think he shouldn't be put in jail, maybe some kind of travel restriction before a trial. I guess it didn't even go that far.

I'm surprised he didn't "take one for the team" and surrendered himself to authorities.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
wingman
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Re: Catalan government declares independence from Spain: BBC

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:04 pm

Ol Puigy bear made a big blunder running away to Belgium. His possible incarceration by Spanish authorities would have rekindled the passions of Catalanes, at least the independence-minded ones. It also would've stoked international commentary, maybe even governmental pressure, on Madrid. The initial beatings meted out by the National Police were a gift to Puigdemont but he has since stumbled very badly and been thoroughly outmaneuvered by Rajoy, the latter surely too smart now to make any more unforced errors. We'll see what happens in December but every passing day now makes it obvious that the people in charge of Catalunya really didn't think any of this shit through. I find that a bit surprising but maybe the complete lack of support from the EU was so shocking (how could it be though?) that they're brains got all scrambled.

Meanwhile Girona scores a massive victory over Real Madrid yesterday, some small consolation for Puigy's home town, and to be honest this is where these passions should be kept, on the pitch vs. the streets. Especially given that Catalunya is already the wealthiest and most autonomous in Spain. It really was a piss poor case of suffering and repression.

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