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Dutchy
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Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:28 pm

The former Bosnian Serb commander Ratko Mladić, nicknamed the ‘butcher of Bosnia’, has been sentenced to life imprisonment after being convicted of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

More than 20 years after the Srebrenica massacre, Mladic was found guilty at the United Nations-backed international criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague of 10 offences involving extermination, murder and persecution of civilian populations.


A triumph for menkind that crimes against humanity don't keep unpunished. Hopefully, current leaders will think twice before committing these acts. And for those still continuing these heinous acts, I hope they will have to stand trial and have to answer for these crimes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:08 pm

Despite the defendant's poor health, the trial took far too long. The sentence should have been death by firing squad.

Please, no crocodile tears.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:09 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
The sentence should have been death by firing squad.


Den Haag is in one of those more civilized 130 nations on this planet that have gotten rid of state sponsored murder. "I was just following orders" didn´t work for Ratko Mladić , it doesn´t work for any other government paid murderer. So who do you suggest forms the firing squad for the firing squad, the judge and everybody else involved in the crime you propose?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:30 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Despite the defendant's poor health, the trial took far too long. The sentence should have been death by firing squad.

Please, no crocodile tears.


Sorry just not sufficient punishment. a very spartan cell, solitary confinement for the rest of his life and just enough basic nutrition to keep him alive is far better.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:56 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Despite the defendant's poor health, the trial took far too long. The sentence should have been death by firing squad.

Please, no crocodile tears.


That would have been the perfect way to whip up more trouble in Serbia. You do know that a not insignificant portion of people in Serbia don't view him as a criminal don't you?

Not to mention those Serbs still in Bosnia.
 
bgm
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:10 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
The sentence should have been death by firing squad.

Please, no crocodile tears.


The rest of the Western world has moved on from this primitive eye-for-an-eye / revenge / state-sponsored murder. It doesn't act as a deterrent (look at your country's incarceration rate as stark evidence of that)

Murdering him doesn't bring the victims back.
Murdering him doesn't provide closure to the victim's families.
Murdering him makes the State (or court in this case) just as bad as Mladic.

Also, as another poster above wrote, to many Serbs he is a hero. Killing him could potentially destabilize the Balkans and cause even more problems, which to be honest, is the last thing that region needs right now.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:29 pm

bgm wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
The sentence should have been death by firing squad.

Please, no crocodile tears.


The rest of the Western world


Not just the rest of the western world, most of the worlds nations, it is already pretty much a customary international law to outlaw capital punishment and nation states could start going after executioners, judges, state attorneys and jury members, prosecute them for murder/Conspiracy to commit murder as soon as they set foot in civilized nations if they chose to one day. And doing so would be progress.

The same progress that enabled Ratko Mladić to face justice btw, and of course the progress the US is against to the point of threatening war.

Murdering him doesn't provide closure to the victim's families.


perpetrators have families and friends too, what did they do wrong to deserve punishment? It is basically the time honored tradition of Sippenhaft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:33 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
[Not just the rest of the western world, most of the worlds nations, it is already pretty much a customary international law to outlaw capital punishment and nation states could start going after executioners, judges, state attorneys and jury members, prosecute them for murder/Conspiracy to commit murder as soon as they set foot in civilized nations if they chose to one day. And doing so would be progress.


The United Nations has spoken out against Capital punishment and this is a UN tribunal, so no Capital Punishment. Furthermore, The Netherlands, as a host nation, would not allow it, it doesn't extradite people who face a Capital Punishment.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:18 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Despite the defendant's poor health, the trial took far too long. The sentence should have been death by firing squad.

Please, no crocodile tears.


That would have been the perfect way to whip up more trouble in Serbia. You do know that a not insignificant portion of people in Serbia don't view him as a criminal don't you?

Not to mention those Serbs still in Bosnia.

I have no sympathy for those in the United States who favor religious or racial cleansing.

Neither do I give a fig for those in Serbia or Bosnia (or elsewhere) who favor religious and ethnic cleansing.

All of my central European ancestors were ethnically cleansed from the face of the earth.

Participants in genocides should be shot.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The Netherlands, as a host nation, would not allow it, it doesn't extradite people who face a Capital Punishment.


No nation under EHRC jurisdiction does. German, i assume all other EU nations as well, troops in Afghanistan did not arrest anyone they knew the US wanted, for the simple fact that it would have been illegal to hand them over.
Rumor is that they didn't even arrest a terrorist when they knew where to find him, just to not puss off the Americans. People in Italy probaby still remember US troops aiming their rifles at their police, on italian soil, to facilitate an arrest. Only when it was apparent they won't get that arrest without a firefight, they saw the light. They where also outnumbered.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:20 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
I have no sympathy for those in the United States who favor religious or racial cleansing.

Neither do I give a fig for those in Serbia or Bosnia (or elsewhere) who favor religious and ethnic cleansing.

All of my central European ancestors were ethnically cleansed from the face of the earth.

Participants in genocides should be shot.


OK Bob, you go shoot him and then when it does kick off in the Balkans, you can go sort that out too.
 
bgm
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:23 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Participants in genocides should be shot.


What would be accomplished by taking that type of action?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:33 pm

bgm wrote:
What would be accomplished by taking that type of action?


An eye for an eye makes everybody blind.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:18 am

bgm wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Participants in genocides should be shot.


What would be accomplished by taking that type of action?


i think Gorge Orwell wrote a nice little book about the benefits of constant conflict for the ruling class.....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A triumph for menkind that crimes against humanity don't keep unpunished. Hopefully, current leaders will think twice before committing these acts. And for those still continuing these heinous acts, I hope they will have to stand trial and have to answer for these crimes.


It's not really a triumph for mankind, that cowardly POS from the Netherlands is still alive and not behind bars. Colonel Thomas Jakob Peter Karremans was a coward, an ineffectual leader and is as responsible for the deaths of those 8373 men and boys as Mladic. He should have been court marshalled for cowardice and thrown in prison, but instead the the Netherlands promoted him to full Colonel.

He should have put up a defence of those people instead he watched them march away to there deaths. Soldiers when well trained and properly lead can accomplish some amazing feats of bravery, this should have been one of those occasions. Running low on supplies is and was a piss poor excuse, the SAS at Battle of Mirbat and the Irish at the Siege of Jadotville ran low on supplies but they didn't surrender they put up heroic defences against massive odds.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:30 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
that cowardly POS from the Netherlands is still alive and not behind bars. Colonel Thomas Jakob Peter Karremans was a coward, an ineffectual leader and is as responsible for the deaths of those 8373 men and boys as Mladic.
I do not think that is entirely fair. Dutchbat, of which Karremans was the commander, was just a small group of lightly armed soldiers. From an arms point of view, little more then a large SWAT team. They had no chance against the heavily armed Serbs.

Karremans requested air support four times. The first two times the Dutch general staff did not pass on the request to NATO HQ. Reason being that, while the situation was threatening, there was at that time no actual fighting yet. The third request for air support was passed on to NATO HQ, but rejected by French general Janvier. The fourth request was finally approved, but by that time the F-16s were already back on the ground for refueling, as instructed by Nicolai (CoS, NL).

When airstrikes were finally made, Srebrenica had already been overrun. The Dutch minister of defence (Voorhoeve) then blocked further bombings to avoid repercussions against dutchbat and civilians.

From what I can see, the Dutch military does not exactly have clean hands. But please put the blame at those who deserve it, the high ranking officers from NL as well as other NATO countries that where further up the chain of command. Also, add in politicians for approving to send such lightly armed soldiers into a warzone to begin with.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:29 pm

Dutchbatt was an infantry battalion of 600 men, they had heavy machine guns, motars and APC’s. They should have fought but they failed those people, 8373 died.

Karremans was the commander on the ground, the buck stops with him, he could have done something and didn’t, he stood by and did zip.

Maybe you should read about Mirbat, 9 SAS troopers and about 25 local police held off a force of 400 men with light arms and a WW2 era 25 pound canon.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:59 pm

I have just read up on Mirbat.

I do not want to belittle their efforts, which were certainly above and beyond what might have been expected. But, the Adoo rebels only had assault rifles and a few mortars. Dutchbat was facing tanks, artillery and s professional command and control. In addition to being surrounded by 8000+ civilians, whereas Mirbat was not.

Dutchbat were given assurances that the women and children could stay, and that the men would merely be deported.

You might argue that Dutchbat was incredibly naive. But keep in mind that prior to Srebrenics the last genocide in Europe was WW2. Only after Srebrenica did the Balkan war turn truly nasty.

You could certainly argue that the limited UN / NATO response at Srebrenica emboldened Mladic and his thugs. That is a sad legacy that lies on the shoulders of Dutchbat and the entire chain of command.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
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Dutchy
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:25 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchbatt was an infantry battalion of 600 men, they had heavy machine guns, motars and APC’s. They should have fought but they failed those people, 8373 died.

Karremans was the commander on the ground, the buck stops with him, he could have done something and didn’t, he stood by and did zip.

Maybe you should read about Mirbat, 9 SAS troopers and about 25 local police held off a force of 400 men with light arms and a WW2 era 25 pound canon.


Shame on you for suggesting such a thing. First responsibility lies with Mladić and their soldiers and a long time nothing. Second with the UN for creating such indefensible enclaves. Third with UN command for not adequately providing support. Blaming these soldiers on the ground and their commander is foolish an stupid.

Did you know, for instance, that the Netherlands wanted to hand over the command of Srebrenica to another country like it was planned, but no other country was willing to put their soldiers on the ground in such an indefensible position?

So easy to give such a verdict form your armchair, save at home somewhere.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:22 pm

You’re being defensive because you’re Dutch, naturally your point of view I’d slanted, I happen to know someone who was there in Bosnia when it happened, she was working for the UN at the time. I’ll take her near fist hand account over whatever you have to say any day. He turned his back and let those people march away to there deaths, had he put up a fight the situation would have been different, but he didn’t. I hope he has nightmares.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:50 pm

Oh com'on, that is one hell of a cheap shot. You are speculating here if there would have been a different outcome if they would have put up a fight or that only would have caused a couple of Dutch military getting killed in the process.

I am not saying that Karremans did everything right, (the reaction of his promotion by the Dutch public wasn't favorable and many Dutchmen thought like you are now expressing) he could have done some things very differently, but in the end, the analysis was that fighting wasn't the way to go and would not have changed anything.

Even a government fell because of the outcome to an investigation into Srebrenica. Srebrenica is a black mark for the whole UN, but the people whom did the killing are the most to blame.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:05 pm

I'm going to add my thoughts to the Srebrenica massacre.

Whilst attributing blame to the Dutch troops at Srebrenica, it does need to be kept in mind that the concept, let alone the reality, of the UN 'Safe Areas' in Bosnia was a dangerous joke, based as it was on a wholly non-existent 'respect' for the UN itself. I.E. Stick a UN Flag up and it's a safe area.

Allegded confusion over the Rules of Engagement and who was actually supposed to be in charge at Srebrenica, it seems unlikely that a lightly-armed infantry battalion could have offered any defence. (The ROE were robust enough if your own troops were coming under effective fire, but if the people being murdered were not yours, then the official line was to 'observe and report'.)

I think the whole UN mission was a joke
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zkojq
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:30 pm

It is important that the sovereignty of the ICC (and its tribunals) is respected universally, so that the scum of the earth (like Ratko) will know that there will be no place to hide if they perpetrate war crimes and crimes against humanity.

For sure the ICC is among humanity's greater triumphs.

Kiwirob wrote:
He turned his back and let those people march away to there deaths

It really is that simple. He had a duty of care to the civilians that Mladic wanted slaughtered.
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Dutchy
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Re: Ratko Mladić convicted of war crimes and genocide at UN tribunal

Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:53 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
I'm going to add my thoughts to the Srebrenica massacre.

Whilst attributing blame to the Dutch troops at Srebrenica, it does need to be kept in mind that the concept, let alone the reality, of the UN 'Safe Areas' in Bosnia was a dangerous joke, based as it was on a wholly non-existent 'respect' for the UN itself. I.E. Stick a UN Flag up and it's a safe area.

Allegded confusion over the Rules of Engagement and who was actually supposed to be in charge at Srebrenica, it seems unlikely that a lightly-armed infantry battalion could have offered any defence. (The ROE were robust enough if your own troops were coming under effective fire, but if the people being murdered were not yours, then the official line was to 'observe and report'.)

I think the whole UN mission was a joke


I think you are correct. A UN mission which was unachievable.

The Netherlands has learned her lessons and did implement it in all the UN missions that followed.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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