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User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4483
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed May 02, 2018 2:31 am

casinterest wrote:
Tom Price has reversed his position and declared that the repeal of the individual mandate will cost people more money for insurance


That was evident from the start, but now that the measure has passed, they just don't see the need to lie anymore.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
seb146
Posts: 17816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed May 02, 2018 2:42 am

More tax reform winning

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5 ... st-Quarter

Republican controlled government borrowed the most money since the 2008 financial collapse. But, hey... At least that one teacher can afford a Costco membership!

Google a different source if you don't like this one.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed May 02, 2018 1:39 pm

seb146 wrote:
More tax reform winning

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5 ... st-Quarter

Republican controlled government borrowed the most money since the 2008 financial collapse. But, hey... At least that one teacher can afford a Costco membership!

Google a different source if you don't like this one.


I think the image from that article is important to post here.

Image
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seb146
Posts: 17816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed May 02, 2018 5:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
seb146 wrote:
More tax reform winning

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5 ... st-Quarter

Republican controlled government borrowed the most money since the 2008 financial collapse. But, hey... At least that one teacher can afford a Costco membership!

Google a different source if you don't like this one.


I think the image from that article is important to post here.

Image


Thank you. I am terrible with posting images.

It really does look like this administration is trying to undo everything that was done under Obama...

Edited for grammar
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed May 02, 2018 6:25 pm

seb146 wrote:
It really does look like this administration is trying to undo everything that was done under Obama...


What, like the huge deficit? Would be too nice, but unfortunately Republicans are just as uncontrolled spenders as Democrats...
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed May 02, 2018 6:32 pm

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It really does look like this administration is trying to undo everything that was done under Obama...


What, like the huge deficit? Would be too nice, but unfortunately Republicans are just as uncontrolled spenders as Democrats...


Last time I checked the President isn't the one with access to spending approbation, that would be congress, and who had majorities there again?

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
seb146
Posts: 17816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 pm

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It really does look like this administration is trying to undo everything that was done under Obama...


What, like the huge deficit? Would be too nice, but unfortunately Republicans are just as uncontrolled spenders as Democrats...


Stop with the "but both sides do it" to justify Republicans being irresponsible. Republicans claim to be fiscally responsible but put this country deeper and deeper in debt. YOUR party. The self proclaimed party of fiscal responsibility is not. Do not shift blame. But, that is all Republicans can do.
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casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu May 03, 2018 6:05 pm

Krugman ( Nobel Prize winning economist says the tax cuts is a nothing burger in terms of business investment . You know the thing that was supposed to stimulate the growth that was to pay for this cut.
http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/02/news/ec ... index.html
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casinterest
Posts: 6829
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:55 pm

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/3964 ... n-expected

"Two economists at the San Francisco branch of the Federal Reserve wrote Tuesday that the Republican tax cut signed into law in December will likely have less of an effect on the economy than forecasters previously thought — and possibly none at all.




The Tax cut may make no difference but to drive up debt and further weaken the US.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-federa ... 1528826767

U.S. Budget Deficit Widens 23% October Through May on Weak Revenue Growth
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910A
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:41 pm

As for the employees benefiting with salary increases...http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... story.html

The underlying cause of the “labor shortage” is hiding in plain sight. It’s the long-term trend of funneling the gains from labor productivity not to the workforce, but to shareholders. As with any addiction, this process produces short-term euphoria, reflected in share prices, but long-term pathology, reflected in income inequality, poverty and social unrest.
But it’s been going on so long that the addicts, that is, corporate CEOs and their mouthpieces, have forgotten how to respond. The CNBC piece observed, as though this is a new discovery, that “employers are going to have to start doing more to entice workers, likely through pay raises, training and other incentives.” The harvest will be lower corporate earnings, Goldman Sachs has warned.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6556
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:12 pm

910A wrote:
As for the employees benefiting with salary increases..

You would think that for a tax reform that has been in effect since January we'd start seeing a more dramatic increase in wage growth when the unemployment numbers come out every month. After all, that was the main selling point: lower the tax burden on corporations and "job creators" and the savings will be released onto the Average Joe.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:30 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
910A wrote:
As for the employees benefiting with salary increases..

You would think that for a tax reform that has been in effect since January we'd start seeing a more dramatic increase in wage growth when the unemployment numbers come out every month. After all, that was the main selling point: lower the tax burden on corporations and "job creators" and the savings will be released onto the Average Joe.


Well now with the Trade Tariffs, Farmers and the middle class are going to take a hit with the higher costs for goods and raw materials.

Looks like Trump is Extremely good at making everyone else pay for his mistakes.


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what- ... 2018-07-11


To make problems worse for Farmers, they have a bumper crop of Soybeans coming this year, which will lower prices even more for a product they might not be able to sell all of at all.
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casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:09 pm

Oh look ,
Real worker wages have FALLEN since the tax cuts took effect. All that Growth is still not happening.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worker-wag ... D=ref_fark

"Worker pay in the second quarter dropped nearly one percent below its first-quarter level, according to the PayScale Index, one measure of worker pay. When accounting for inflation, the drop is even steeper. Year-over-year, rising prices have eaten up still-modest pay gains for many workers, with the result that real wages fell 1.4 percent from the prior year, according to PayScale. The drop was broad, with 80 percent of industries and two-thirds of metro areas affected."
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VTKillarney
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:53 pm

I am sure that the right is salivating at the idea that the Democrats in 2020 will remind everyone that they are opposed to Trump's tax cuts.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8164
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:55 pm

casinterest wrote:
Oh look ,
Real worker wages have FALLEN since the tax cuts took effect. All that Growth is still not happening.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worker-wag ... D=ref_fark

"Worker pay in the second quarter dropped nearly one percent below its first-quarter level, according to the PayScale Index, one measure of worker pay. When accounting for inflation, the drop is even steeper. Year-over-year, rising prices have eaten up still-modest pay gains for many workers, with the result that real wages fell 1.4 percent from the prior year, according to PayScale. The drop was broad, with 80 percent of industries and two-thirds of metro areas affected."

Had Trump not lied and failed with his tax cut some of this would not have happened. As I said at the start of this thread the top tax bracket should have simply been raised one or two points, that would have solved a hell of a lot of the loss. Of course the the Republicans and their fundraisers/backers could never have swallowed that. People don't understand that the top must be raised if what Trump committed to is to be.

To restate, while he was pushing for a tax cut Trump clearly said:

“The rich will not be gaining at all with this plan,” [...] “If they have to go higher, they’ll go higher.”
http://fortune.com/2017/09/13/donald-tr ... americans/

"Our framework includes our explicit commitment that tax reform will protect low-income and middle-income households, not the wealthy and well-connected,” [...] ", and it’s not good for me. Believe me."
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... ch/541584/

Yet "the rich" are clearly the biggest gainers of the tax cut. Or did I miss something? I know for me the AMT change alone has altered my tax hit quite nicely.

But you know, a few hundred companies gave their employees a one time bonus of $1,000.00 so that makes everything alright.

Now if every company that benefited from the tax changes had instead given all employees an additional $1,000.00 in annual pay then you might have something. That would be something real that would directly help the lowest paid employees (the rich/highly paid not so much because $1,000.00 isn't a whole hell of a lot in the grand scheme of annual expenses) and would have flowed most quickly back into the economy.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:46 pm

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-de ... 2018-07-19

"The budget proposal released in February showed annual deficits totaling $7.1 trillion over 10 years. The latest revisions increase these cumulative deficits by $926 billion, to $8 trillion.

"

Remember the average FAMILY was supposed to get a tax cut of 1182 per year. There are only about 140 million Individual returns.

That is 165 BILLION dollars. Currently the government is now adding 92.6 billion per year, on top of the deficit that will result from this non growth the government is pushing.

Remember, most are making less than 1182 per year as a family as the rich are getting more. The poor are paying for the rich people's tax cuts.
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seb146
Posts: 17816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:00 pm

casinterest wrote:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-deficit-now-projected-to-top-1-trillion-starting-next-year-2018-07-19

"The budget proposal released in February showed annual deficits totaling $7.1 trillion over 10 years. The latest revisions increase these cumulative deficits by $926 billion, to $8 trillion.

"

Remember the average FAMILY was supposed to get a tax cut of 1182 per year. There are only about 140 million Individual returns.

That is 165 BILLION dollars. Currently the government is now adding 92.6 billion per year, on top of the deficit that will result from this non growth the government is pushing.

Remember, most are making less than 1182 per year as a family as the rich are getting more. The poor are paying for the rich people's tax cuts.


And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt. After that, then what? Both the debt and deficit are out of control, thanks to the financial responsibility of the Republican party. And they want to take money and health care away from seniors and disabled people on top of it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
jetero
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:04 pm

seb146 wrote:
And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt.


True they want to reduce entitlements, but your logic is not quite right there as to how that would work out mechanically.
 
seb146
Posts: 17816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 pm

jetero wrote:
seb146 wrote:
And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt.


True they want to reduce entitlements, but your logic is not quite right there as to how that would work out mechanically.


First off, WE pay into those two entitlements, so, yes we are all entitled to them.

Second, how would it not work out like that mechanically?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
jetero
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:18 pm

seb146 wrote:
jetero wrote:
seb146 wrote:
And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt.


True they want to reduce entitlements, but your logic is not quite right there as to how that would work out mechanically.


First off, WE pay into those two entitlements, so, yes we are all entitled to them.

Second, how would it not work out like that mechanically?


I'm not arguing that entitlements should be cut back, seb.

I am not aware of any proposal to use the Social Security Trust Funds to pay down the deficit as you describe. Obviously, other things equal, if you reduce entitlements over the long term it will have an effect over time in reducing the budget deficit and the debt because you'll be paying out less.
 
seb146
Posts: 17816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:40 pm

jetero wrote:
seb146 wrote:
jetero wrote:

True they want to reduce entitlements, but your logic is not quite right there as to how that would work out mechanically.


First off, WE pay into those two entitlements, so, yes we are all entitled to them.

Second, how would it not work out like that mechanically?


I'm not arguing that entitlements should be cut back, seb.

I am not aware of any proposal to use the Social Security Trust Funds to pay down the deficit as you describe. Obviously, other things equal, if you reduce entitlements over the long term it will have an effect over time in reducing the budget deficit and the debt because you'll be paying out less.


But the reduction on the debt and deficit are near nothing, if those two programs are cut. With no social safety net, no health care, people will be dying at a higher rate and there will be more people on the streets, as people will not be able to afford housing or utilities or food. I guess we will have to turn to soylent for nutrition. (extreme hyperbole)
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casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:45 pm

In other news thought, it appears Trump does not understand that in an rapidly growing market the Fed must raise interest rates to keep control of Inflation.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 3933630464

1.he cuts taxes when the economy is already strong
2.Increase the debt to pay for those tax cuts.
3. He wants to have massive inflation .


This is a recipe for disaster.





jetero wrote:

I am not aware of any proposal to use the Social Security Trust Funds to pay down the deficit as you describe. Obviously, other things equal, if you reduce entitlements over the long term it will have an effect over time in reducing the budget deficit and the debt because you'll be paying out less.


If you reduce entitlements, you will have a mad electorate, and you will be out of power.
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jetero
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:05 pm

casinterest wrote:
jetero wrote:

I am not aware of any proposal to use the Social Security Trust Funds to pay down the deficit as you describe. Obviously, other things equal, if you reduce entitlements over the long term it will have an effect over time in reducing the budget deficit and the debt because you'll be paying out less.


If you reduce entitlements, you will have a mad electorate, and you will be out of power.


One would hope, but these days, who knows what they can get away with?
 
jetero
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:07 pm

casinterest wrote:
In other news thought, it appears Trump does not understand that in an rapidly growing market the Fed must raise interest rates to keep control of Inflation.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 3933630464

1.he cuts taxes when the economy is already strong
2.Increase the debt to pay for those tax cuts.
3. He wants to have massive inflation .


This is a recipe for disaster.


It is indeed possible that we are going head first into a national security and economic disaster, and all Rand Paul can talk about is "Trump Derangement Syndrome."

Anyone who isn't at least questioning this confluence of events has their head in the sand. Anyone who says, "Well let's just wait and see what he actually DOES" will be complicit in the disaster.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6556
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:41 pm

casinterest wrote:
In other news thought, it appears Trump does not understand that in an rapidly growing market the Fed must raise interest rates to keep control of Inflation.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 3933630464

1.he cuts taxes when the economy is already strong
2.Increase the debt to pay for those tax cuts.
3. He wants to have massive inflation .


This is a recipe for disaster.

It is clear that he doesn't know what he's doing it. Trump is arguing against Trump.

Low interest rate tweet
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:52 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
casinterest wrote:
In other news thought, it appears Trump does not understand that in an rapidly growing market the Fed must raise interest rates to keep control of Inflation.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 3933630464

1.he cuts taxes when the economy is already strong
2.Increase the debt to pay for those tax cuts.
3. He wants to have massive inflation .


This is a recipe for disaster.

It is clear that he doesn't know what he's doing it. Trump is arguing against Trump.

Low interest rate tweet
'

Wow that tweet definitely highlights some serious inconsistencies. Not to mention he was flat out wrong.
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User avatar
Berevoff
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:19 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:25 pm

casinterest wrote:
In other news thought, it appears Trump does not understand that in an rapidly growing market the Fed must raise interest rates to keep control of Inflation.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 3933630464

1.he cuts taxes when the economy is already strong
2.Increase the debt to pay for those tax cuts.
3. He wants to have massive inflation .


This is a recipe for disaster.





jetero wrote:

I am not aware of any proposal to use the Social Security Trust Funds to pay down the deficit as you describe. Obviously, other things equal, if you reduce entitlements over the long term it will have an effect over time in reducing the budget deficit and the debt because you'll be paying out less.


If you reduce entitlements, you will have a mad electorate, and you will be out of power.


Wait a second. Are you telling me Trump doesn't know how to manage the finances of a business or country or what basic economic policy is? Outrageous!

He's desperately trying to keep the "growth rate" high so he can stroke himself as having "one of or quite possibly the best" economy ever in the history of the world.

Trump's gonna Trump.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:47 am

Berevoff wrote:

Trump's gonna Trump.



We will all have to pay the price for it.
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stratosphere
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:01 am

seb146 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-deficit-now-projected-to-top-1-trillion-starting-next-year-2018-07-19

"The budget proposal released in February showed annual deficits totaling $7.1 trillion over 10 years. The latest revisions increase these cumulative deficits by $926 billion, to $8 trillion.

"

Remember the average FAMILY was supposed to get a tax cut of 1182 per year. There are only about 140 million Individual returns.

That is 165 BILLION dollars. Currently the government is now adding 92.6 billion per year, on top of the deficit that will result from this non growth the government is pushing.

Remember, most are making less than 1182 per year as a family as the rich are getting more. The poor are paying for the rich people's tax cuts.


And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt. After that, then what? Both the debt and deficit are out of control, thanks to the financial responsibility of the Republican party. And they want to take money and health care away from seniors and disabled people on top of it.


And what party gutted Social Security Seb? It was that scumbag Lyndon Johnson a Democrat that moved it into the general fund where they all could get their dirty paws on it. So now something I paid into since I was 15 and am now 55 I will have to wait til what 67? and then what? maybe or maybe not? I always hated social security it's a damn ponzi scheme. My parents paid in all their lives and died before collecting any of it.
 
seb146
Posts: 17816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:38 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-deficit-now-projected-to-top-1-trillion-starting-next-year-2018-07-19

"The budget proposal released in February showed annual deficits totaling $7.1 trillion over 10 years. The latest revisions increase these cumulative deficits by $926 billion, to $8 trillion.

"

Remember the average FAMILY was supposed to get a tax cut of 1182 per year. There are only about 140 million Individual returns.

That is 165 BILLION dollars. Currently the government is now adding 92.6 billion per year, on top of the deficit that will result from this non growth the government is pushing.

Remember, most are making less than 1182 per year as a family as the rich are getting more. The poor are paying for the rich people's tax cuts.


And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt. After that, then what? Both the debt and deficit are out of control, thanks to the financial responsibility of the Republican party. And they want to take money and health care away from seniors and disabled people on top of it.


And what party gutted Social Security Seb? It was that scumbag Lyndon Johnson a Democrat that moved it into the general fund where they all could get their dirty paws on it. So now something I paid into since I was 15 and am now 55 I will have to wait til what 67? and then what? maybe or maybe not? I always hated social security it's a damn ponzi scheme. My parents paid in all their lives and died before collecting any of it.


Are you sure it was LBJ? Or was it Reganomics?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:59 am

Real wage's are DOWN!

https://twitter.com/business/status/1021480288369733633

Those tax cuts are still hurting the average working folks in America.
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apodino
Posts: 3293
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:07 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-deficit-now-projected-to-top-1-trillion-starting-next-year-2018-07-19

"The budget proposal released in February showed annual deficits totaling $7.1 trillion over 10 years. The latest revisions increase these cumulative deficits by $926 billion, to $8 trillion.

"

Remember the average FAMILY was supposed to get a tax cut of 1182 per year. There are only about 140 million Individual returns.

That is 165 BILLION dollars. Currently the government is now adding 92.6 billion per year, on top of the deficit that will result from this non growth the government is pushing.

Remember, most are making less than 1182 per year as a family as the rich are getting more. The poor are paying for the rich people's tax cuts.


And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt. After that, then what? Both the debt and deficit are out of control, thanks to the financial responsibility of the Republican party. And they want to take money and health care away from seniors and disabled people on top of it.


And what party gutted Social Security Seb? It was that scumbag Lyndon Johnson a Democrat that moved it into the general fund where they all could get their dirty paws on it. So now something I paid into since I was 15 and am now 55 I will have to wait til what 67? and then what? maybe or maybe not? I always hated social security it's a damn ponzi scheme. My parents paid in all their lives and died before collecting any of it.


I wanted to point out one thing about Social Security. Not arguing for or against it here. We pay money into the Social Security trust fund and we get the money back during retirement. If instead of having to pay all that money into the Trust fund, I could instead put that money into something low risk like a Bond or a CD, I would get a bigger rate of return than I do under the current system.
 
jetero
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:24 am

apodino wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt. After that, then what? Both the debt and deficit are out of control, thanks to the financial responsibility of the Republican party. And they want to take money and health care away from seniors and disabled people on top of it.


And what party gutted Social Security Seb? It was that scumbag Lyndon Johnson a Democrat that moved it into the general fund where they all could get their dirty paws on it. So now something I paid into since I was 15 and am now 55 I will have to wait til what 67? and then what? maybe or maybe not? I always hated social security it's a damn ponzi scheme. My parents paid in all their lives and died before collecting any of it.


I wanted to point out one thing about Social Security. Not arguing for or against it here. We pay money into the Social Security trust fund and we get the money back during retirement. If instead of having to pay all that money into the Trust fund, I could instead put that money into something low risk like a Bond or a CD, I would get a bigger rate of return than I do under the current system.


Is that even how it works to begin with? There is no “lockbox” of personal accounts today.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:32 am

apodino wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And Republicans want to gut Social Security and Medicare to pay for this. That would be a one time payment toward the debt. After that, then what? Both the debt and deficit are out of control, thanks to the financial responsibility of the Republican party. And they want to take money and health care away from seniors and disabled people on top of it.


And what party gutted Social Security Seb? It was that scumbag Lyndon Johnson a Democrat that moved it into the general fund where they all could get their dirty paws on it. So now something I paid into since I was 15 and am now 55 I will have to wait til what 67? and then what? maybe or maybe not? I always hated social security it's a damn ponzi scheme. My parents paid in all their lives and died before collecting any of it.


I wanted to point out one thing about Social Security. Not arguing for or against it here. We pay money into the Social Security trust fund and we get the money back during retirement. If instead of having to pay all that money into the Trust fund, I could instead put that money into something low risk like a Bond or a CD, I would get a bigger rate of return than I do under the current system.


But the money is not just for you. That is why it is called SOCIAL security.
As I have found out, others depend on that money. I had friends that passed away as the sole bread winners in their 30's and 40's. Their wives needed that money to raise those kids. I had other friends that were afflicted with diseases that limited their ability to work.
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tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:56 am

casinterest wrote:
Real wage's are DOWN!

https://twitter.com/business/status/1021480288369733633

Those tax cuts are still hurting the average working folks in America.


I wonder how much ignorance this factoid will meet on this forum alone.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 6556
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:20 am

jetero wrote:
Is that even how it works to begin with? There is no “lockbox” of personal accounts today.

No, but it begs the question: are you entitled to withdraw more than what you paid in? A coworker brought this up and it's a valid point.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
jetero
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:15 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
jetero wrote:
Is that even how it works to begin with? There is no “lockbox” of personal accounts today.

No, but it begs the question: are you entitled to withdraw more than what you paid in? A coworker brought this up and it's a valid point.


I honestly don't know the mechanics but I wouldn't be surprised. That's how every pension system works.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:18 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
jetero wrote:
Is that even how it works to begin with? There is no “lockbox” of personal accounts today.

No, but it begs the question: are you entitled to withdraw more than what you paid in? A coworker brought this up and it's a valid point.


I´d say state maintained pension systems are insurance against struggling to survive after a lifetime of working, insurance against old-age poverty. And as such that created an entitlement to get more than you paid into it if you have bad luck. Just as every other insurance.

Not everyone has luck when it comes to career, and there is luck involved. No idea how the US pension system works, but here i have to put in 40 full years of employment, which is tough to fit between University and retirement age for some people (e.g. those that learn a trade and get a master after that), and when you have worked a shorter time, you don´t get your full pension.

If pension is insurance, are you entitled to still get money out of it even when you technically don´t need it? Are you entitled to get inflation re-reimbursed? Are you entitled to gain interest on your payments?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
jetero
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:21 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
jetero wrote:
Is that even how it works to begin with? There is no “lockbox” of personal accounts today.

No, but it begs the question: are you entitled to withdraw more than what you paid in? A coworker brought this up and it's a valid point.


I´d say state maintained pension systems are insurance against struggling to survive after a lifetime of working, insurance against old-age poverty. And as such that created an entitlement to get more than you paid into it if you have bad luck. Just as every other insurance.

Not everyone has luck when it comes to career, and there is luck involved. No idea how the US pension system works, but here i have to put in 40 full years of employment, which is tough to fit between University and retirement age for some people (e.g. those that learn a trade and get a master after that), and when you have worked a shorter time, you don´t get your full pension.

If pension is insurance, are you entitled to still get money out of it even when you technically don´t need it? Are you entitled to get inflation re-reimbursed? Are you entitled to gain interest on your payments?

best regards
Thomas


I'm not arguing against Social Security, believe me.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:01 pm

jetero wrote:
I'm not arguing against Social Security, believe me.


i´d be surprised if you did....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8164
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:52 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
jetero wrote:
Is that even how it works to begin with? There is no “lockbox” of personal accounts today.

No, but it begs the question: are you entitled to withdraw more than what you paid in? A coworker brought this up and it's a valid point.

Yes, of course you are entitled to get out more than you paid in, just like with any insurance.

Social Security needs to be adjusted and properly maintained just like any other system you pay into. However a large portion of our legislators want the system to fail and so do nothing to address shortfalls or known future issues.

If Social Security fails it is on those people.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
jetero
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:14 pm

casinterest wrote:
Let's congratulate the farmers of this country on their windfall from our tax dollar to pay for their losses due to Trump's Tariffs. It almost seems like bribery for votes.


It almost seems?!
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:14 pm

All,
Let's congratulate the farmers of this country on their windfall from our tax dollar to pay for their losses due to Trump's Tariffs. It almost seems like bribery for votes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/24/trump-p ... eport.html
Also let's remember we will all be paying more for items that now cost more due to the Trump Tariffs.

"The Trump administration plans to offer billions in aid to farmers hit by tariffs on their goods, a move that could ease the pain caused by Trump's escalating trade war in key electoral states, according to multiple reports Tuesday."


Also,
Trump tweeted the below today.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 8265362432


Why is he bailing out the farmers if the tariffs are the GREATEST?
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:18 pm

jetero wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Let's congratulate the farmers of this country on their windfall from our tax dollar to pay for their losses due to Trump's Tariffs. It almost seems like bribery for votes.


It almost seems?!


Gotta give a little leeway so the Trumpers actually read the article to see what is being done with their tax dollars.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
seb146
Posts: 17816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:58 pm

casinterest wrote:
apodino wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

And what party gutted Social Security Seb? It was that scumbag Lyndon Johnson a Democrat that moved it into the general fund where they all could get their dirty paws on it. So now something I paid into since I was 15 and am now 55 I will have to wait til what 67? and then what? maybe or maybe not? I always hated social security it's a damn ponzi scheme. My parents paid in all their lives and died before collecting any of it.


I wanted to point out one thing about Social Security. Not arguing for or against it here. We pay money into the Social Security trust fund and we get the money back during retirement. If instead of having to pay all that money into the Trust fund, I could instead put that money into something low risk like a Bond or a CD, I would get a bigger rate of return than I do under the current system.


But the money is not just for you. That is why it is called SOCIAL security.
As I have found out, others depend on that money. I had friends that passed away as the sole bread winners in their 30's and 40's. Their wives needed that money to raise those kids. I had other friends that were afflicted with diseases that limited their ability to work.


Paul Ryan and Scott Walker, two of the biggest champions of cutting social programs, got were they are today with the help of social programs.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:44 pm

seb146 wrote:

Paul Ryan and Scott Walker, two of the biggest champions of cutting social programs, got were they are today with the help of social programs.


But they get tons of RICH DONOR money to forget messy details like that. Remember Politicians are for sale. Always.

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018 ... D=ref_fark


Grover Norquist is now blaming Direct Depost for the lack of folks realizing the benefits of the crumbs they got in the tax cut.

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018 ... D=ref_fark
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:04 am

tommy1808 wrote:
I´d say state maintained pension systems are insurance against struggling to survive after a lifetime of working, insurance against old-age poverty. And as such that created an entitlement to get more than you paid into it if you have bad luck. Just as every other insurance.

Not everyone has luck when it comes to career, and there is luck involved. No idea how the US pension system works, but here i have to put in 40 full years of employment, which is tough to fit between University and retirement age for some people (e.g. those that learn a trade and get a master after that), and when you have worked a shorter time, you don´t get your full pension.

If pension is insurance, are you entitled to still get money out of it even when you technically don´t need it? Are you entitled to get inflation re-reimbursed? Are you entitled to gain interest on your payments?

best regards
Thomas


Think of Social Security as an “solidarity” or “insurance” part of your pension, which does have a specified benefit at the time you retire. Not unlike most European countries really. Yes, there is inflation protection - SS benefit gets adjusted annually for cost of living. It’s not like contribution - where the money is yours and you can withdraw it. This money is not yours until you get a benefit payment, hence there is no notion of “interest on your payments”.

Monthly pension is computed based on your own wages and contributions from those (earned income). There’s also max amount of income that’s insurable (currently 128K USD per year). Business income (K1 and other dividends) don’t count. Formula is rather complex. SS system takes 35 years with maximum earnings. What matters is ratio of your insured earnings vs maximum insured earnings, there are also multupliers - earlier years matter much more than later years.

Last time I toyed with SS calculator, my findings are:
- If you had a great salary from age of 23-24, then within 12-13 years you will have earned about half of max SS pension (which is already above average SS benefit). Having max earnings towards retirement will have limited impact on the resulting benefit.
- Smaller earnings when you are a student are generally a wasted money.
- Once you banked all of your SS years (or are close), you are better off being paid as a pass-through business, which avoids SS taxation on K1 dividend (profit distribution).
 
anrec80
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:07 am

seb146 wrote:
Paul Ryan and Scott Walker, two of the biggest champions of cutting social programs, got were they are today with the help of social programs.


Well - does the country has any other choice really. With these deficits and defense spending, it simply cannot afford these social programs. Too many users (and abusers) of those.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:22 am

casinterest wrote:
Real wage's are DOWN!

https://twitter.com/business/status/1021480288369733633

Those tax cuts are still hurting the average working folks in America.


Well, I am not that optimistic of the future of an average working folk in America. It’s not about tax cuts; reasons are rather more fundamental. Nowadays you can’t view a state of a working folk in the USA outside of the context of what else is going on in the world.

And in the world - we have communism’s crash, China and South Asian countries are in global supply chain. They have billions of such “average working folks” who now want to earn well and live well today, as opposed to “in the future, once we build our communism”. And all those folks are in the global markets, and they have to compete more fiercely for jobs since their countries don’t have welfare systems. Three decades ago Eastern Europe was building communism, China was having their cultural revolution. They weren’t competing for world resources or work opportunities really.

This is really the fundamentals behind this middle class squeeze. All US government can do is play with statistics. Not much else really. Unless we want to restore USSR, feed to the newly restored USSR Eastern Europe and send them back to build their communism. And encourage china to get back into revolution of some sort again. Nobody will want this of course.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Real wage's are DOWN!

https://twitter.com/business/status/1021480288369733633

Those tax cuts are still hurting the average working folks in America.


Well, I am not that optimistic of the future of an average working folk in America. It’s not about tax cuts; reasons are rather more fundamental. Nowadays you can’t view a state of a working folk in the USA outside of the context of what else is going on in the world.

And in the world - we have communism’s crash, China and South Asian countries are in global supply chain. They have billions of such “average working folks” who now want to earn well and live well today, as opposed to “in the future, once we build our communism”. And all those folks are in the global markets, and they have to compete more fiercely for jobs since their countries don’t have welfare systems. Three decades ago Eastern Europe was building communism, China was having their cultural revolution. They weren’t competing for world resources or work opportunities really.

This is really the fundamentals behind this middle class squeeze. All US government can do is play with statistics. Not much else really. Unless we want to restore USSR, feed to the newly restored USSR Eastern Europe and send them back to build their communism. And encourage china to get back into revolution of some sort again. Nobody will want this of course.



There are other answers. The rest of the world likes US investments. They spend well to prop us up. The US can do well as a service economy, where value is added to the end products. Products and services make many companies a lot of Money.

Think of it like the Restaurant business. You can work at McDonald's where the products is cheap, understood by all, and made in a stamped out process for low prices. That or you can work at a better local business that makes a lot of staples, but has added ambiance, services, and more engaging menu choices. At the high end, you have fine wines, and fine chef experimental items. The US should not aim to be a place that manufactures computer chips. We should aim to be the place that uses those chips for phones, trading, Plane manufacturing, investment choices, and analysis.

Would you rather have Boeing/Spacex or FoxConn? And which would you prefer to work at?
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