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casinterest
Posts: 8800
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:21 pm

jetero wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Gee no surprise here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... g-deficits

The new MAGA mentality and McConnell's fear of course create this fantasy. Morons.


Yes, excessive entitlements cause excess spend which can lead to deficits..... HOWEVER.... Then cut the friggin' entitlement spending! They control the House, Senate and Presidency!

But they don't. Instead like irresponsible children who quit their jobs and just say "Fine, let anyone try to get blood from a stone! Hah! That'll show everyone that I borrowed money from how stupid they were...I'll be fine."

Instead of reducing budgets, paying down debt, controlling costs, they decrease federal inflows and increase spending.

Morons.

We need actual Republican's that can think and work with others in Congress.

Tugg


Mcconnell is like a fat guy that says we wants to lose weight. He buys the Gym Memborship, but then goes out and orders a double whopper with fires and a coke and wonders why his waist keeps expanding .


If you think that's bad, have you heard about Elizabeth Warren?
]

Not the same thing. but go with it if you want too.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:44 pm

casinterest wrote:
jetero wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Mcconnell is like a fat guy that says we wants to lose weight. He buys the Gym Memborship, but then goes out and orders a double whopper with fires and a coke and wonders why his waist keeps expanding .


If you think that's bad, have you heard about Elizabeth Warren?
]

Not the same thing. but go with it if you want too.


Image
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8800
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:50 pm

:duck:
jetero wrote:
casinterest wrote:
jetero wrote:

If you think that's bad, have you heard about Elizabeth Warren?
]

Not the same thing. but go with it if you want too.


Image
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 7374
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:55 pm

wingman wrote:
And where in the hell did the Tea Party get to? They used to go apeshit when Obama was saving the global economy and now you don't hear a peep.

"We hate the Black guy but we can't say that in public so let's be outraged by everything and hope it gets us elected".

I think the Tea Party's new favorite shop is Zara...now they get items branded "I really don't care, do you?"
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:55 pm

Trump has a new 10% tax plan for the middle class. Says it will happen after midterms, and provides no details on how it will work , or who will pay for it.

http://fortune.com/2018/10/22/trump-10- ... -election/
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
jetero
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 pm

casinterest wrote:
Trump has a new 10% tax plan for the middle class. Says it will happen after midterms, and provides no details on how it will work , or who will pay for it.

http://fortune.com/2018/10/22/trump-10- ... -election/


Sadly, that's more than enough to convince the populace of fools that the Republican electorate has become.
 
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MassAppeal
Posts: 142
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:34 pm

jetero wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Trump has a new 10% tax plan for the middle class. Says it will happen after midterms, and provides no details on how it will work , or who will pay for it.

http://fortune.com/2018/10/22/trump-10- ... -election/


Sadly, that's more than enough to convince the populace of fools that the Republican electorate has become.


The Democrats can continue to play the superior card or they can actually start to play ball and win and control the path of the county. Nobody cares about ideals or whats right if you're not in charge. We've got to start going into the gutter if we want things to change. Screaming and crying about how terrible they are is not going to change anything. That's clear.
 
jetero
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:36 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
jetero wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Trump has a new 10% tax plan for the middle class. Says it will happen after midterms, and provides no details on how it will work , or who will pay for it.

http://fortune.com/2018/10/22/trump-10- ... -election/


Sadly, that's more than enough to convince the populace of fools that the Republican electorate has become.


The Democrats can continue to play the superior card or they can actually start to play ball and win and control the path of the county. Nobody cares about ideals or whats right if you're not in charge. We've got to start going into the gutter if we want things to change. Screaming and crying about how terrible they are is not going to change anything. That's clear.


I am not the body of my posts on a message board, MassAppeal. I'd hope you aren't, either.
 
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MassAppeal
Posts: 142
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:38 pm

jetero wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
jetero wrote:

Sadly, that's more than enough to convince the populace of fools that the Republican electorate has become.


The Democrats can continue to play the superior card or they can actually start to play ball and win and control the path of the county. Nobody cares about ideals or whats right if you're not in charge. We've got to start going into the gutter if we want things to change. Screaming and crying about how terrible they are is not going to change anything. That's clear.


I am not the body of my posts on a message board, MassAppeal. I'd hope you aren't, either.


I'm just trying to trigger them.
 
jetero
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:39 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
jetero wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:

The Democrats can continue to play the superior card or they can actually start to play ball and win and control the path of the county. Nobody cares about ideals or whats right if you're not in charge. We've got to start going into the gutter if we want things to change. Screaming and crying about how terrible they are is not going to change anything. That's clear.


I am not the body of my posts on a message board, MassAppeal. I'd hope you aren't, either.


I'm just trying to trigger them.


How productive. Now we have a Seahawk with an Astros logo as avatar. I feel like I've had a nightmare about that before.
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:42 pm

jetero wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
jetero wrote:

I am not the body of my posts on a message board, MassAppeal. I'd hope you aren't, either.


I'm just trying to trigger them.


How productive. Now we have a Seahawk with an Astros logo as avatar. I feel like I've had a nightmare about that before.


Pretty much.

The funding has come through. The elections are near. Its time to bring out the anger on the right!
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:59 pm

casinterest wrote:
Trump has a new 10% tax plan for the middle class. Says it will happen after midterms, and provides no details on how it will work , or who will pay for it.

http://fortune.com/2018/10/22/trump-10- ... -election/


Come on, clearly the Mexicans are going to pay for the 10% tax cut :duck: :duck:

Oh, and did I miss the part about infrastructure week? Oh, and some beautiful healthcare plan? Wait, you mean Trump Inc. can't get those kickback on infrastructure projects? Or they can't get bribes from insurance companies?
 
Eyad89
Posts: 612
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:26 pm

The government debt now is double what it was in 2014, and the tax cut bill failed to bring in what the GOP promised a year ago, it actually did quite the opposite, as most economists and anyone with a common sense had predicted.


Let's look at the trends of the past:

Bush the father handed Clinton a $269 billion deficit


Clinton handed Bush the son a $127 billion surplus


Bush the son handed Obama a $1.4 trillion deficit


Obama reduced that to $492 billion deficit


and now Trump is increasing the deficit for the second year in a row, and the future looks worse with the current tax cut the overspending ..


tell me again which is the party of fiscal responsibility?


And then they say the economy is booming, growth based on borrowing and deficit is not a real growth. It's like buying all you want from your credit card and bragging about how much you can buy. This is just borrowing from the future generations.
 
seb146
Posts: 20203
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:30 pm

casinterest wrote:
Trump has a new 10% tax plan for the middle class. Says it will happen after midterms, and provides no details on how it will work , or who will pay for it.

http://fortune.com/2018/10/22/trump-10- ... -election/


Congress is in recess until after the election. The president can not, unilaterally, make any tax cuts. This is purely a stunt for his base who clearly have no idea how the Constitution works.

He also promised to release his taxes after he was elected. And to give us better and lower cost health care. And to "lock her up". And that Mexico would pay for a wall.

How's that working out, MAGA crew? Republicans?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
seb146
Posts: 20203
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:32 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
The government debt now is double what it was in 2014, and the tax cut bill failed to bring in what the GOP promised a year ago, it actually did quite the opposite, as most economists and anyone with a common sense had predicted.


Let's look at the trends of the past:

Bush the father handed Clinton a $269 billion deficit


Clinton handed Bush the son a $127 billion surplus


Bush the son handed Obama a $1.4 trillion deficit


Obama reduced that to $492 billion deficit


and now Trump is increasing the deficit for the second year in a row, and the future looks worse with the current tax cut the overspending ..


tell me again which is the party of fiscal responsibility?


And then they say the economy is booming, growth based on borrowing and deficit is not a real growth. It's like buying all you want from your credit card and bragging about how much you can buy. This is just borrowing from the future generations.


Deficits only matter when Democrats are in control. You can be guaranteed that when Democrats take control of Congress, Republicans will be crying and screaming and carrying on about the out of control deficit and debt and blame Democrats.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:33 pm

seb146 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Trump has a new 10% tax plan for the middle class. Says it will happen after midterms, and provides no details on how it will work , or who will pay for it.

http://fortune.com/2018/10/22/trump-10- ... -election/


Congress is in recess until after the election. The president can not, unilaterally, make any tax cuts. This is purely a stunt for his base who clearly have no idea how the Constitution works.

He also promised to release his taxes after he was elected. And to give us better and lower cost health care. And to "lock her up". And that Mexico would pay for a wall.

How's that working out, MAGA crew? Republicans?



Unfortunately Trump's base is extremely naive when it comes to the constitution and government of the united states. They are deaf, dumb , and blind when Trump talks of anything Case in point is the migrant caravan of asylum seekers.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
2122M
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:36 pm

This thread has not aged well......
 
A3801000
Posts: 557
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:22 pm

The Dow is now 312 points lower than the day that Trump signed the tax bill into law.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:03 am

I am so glad the fiscally responsible party is in power. After years of beating Democrats about being irresponsible, now the GOP has done the right thing and issued $1.3T of debt for the year.

We are winning with the tax reform. Because who knew that lower tax revenues mean having to issue debt to cover spending? Crazy!
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:37 pm

Job Growth Spike?


Remember how we were going to get accellerated job Growth and wage gains?

Not so much

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones ... dfd7022df9

"Obama’s eight years

2009: Negative 422,000 per month
Lost 5.1 million jobs (teeth of the recession)
2010: 88,000 per month or 1.05 million for the year
2011: 174,000 per month or 2.09 million
2012: 179,000 per month or 2.15 million
2013: 192,000 per month or 2.3 million
2014: 250,000 per month or 3.0 million
2015: 226,000 per month or 2.71 million
2016: 195,000 per month or 2.34 million
Trump’s through November

2017: 182,000 per month or 2.19 million
Through November 2018: 206,000 per month or 2.47 million run rate

":
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9860
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Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:04 pm

Looks like we will need to cut the top rates a bit to pay for Trump's Wall
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:00 am

This administration is what is known in the Military as a Cluster****. Enough said on that score. We must maintain our decorum to a point.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
seb146
Posts: 20203
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:09 pm

With nearly $2 trillion in debt, how do Republicans think cutting two programs with tens of billions in assets will solve everything? That is like buying a brand new Land Rover Evoque on a credit card and insisting your one time $10 lottery win will cover it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:58 pm

What and many others with simplistic thoughts or wealth and taxes and the government chronically misunderstand is that taxes don't impact wealth and the wealthy, as much as the markets and economy do. And those are driven by stability combined with proper management by the government.

Pay you way (increase receipts -taxes in this case-), reduce expenses (make cuts -welfare programs, useless programs, or changes to funding methods-), make something far more valuable than tricks like tax cuts: a stable and lasting economy.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:48 pm

Tugger wrote:
What and many others with simplistic thoughts or wealth and taxes and the government chronically misunderstand is that taxes don't impact wealth and the wealthy, as much as the markets and economy do. And those are driven by stability combined with proper management by the government.

Pay you way (increase receipts -taxes in this case-), reduce expenses (make cuts -welfare programs, useless programs, or changes to funding methods-), make something far more valuable than tricks like tax cuts: a stable and lasting economy.

Tugg

Here is an article that agrees with you.

https://reason.com/blog/2019/01/18/mcco ... th-revenue

"There is truth to that. The major entitlement programs—Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid—are the biggest drivers of the long-term debt, which now exceeds $20 trillion. But annual deficits, while related, are not the same as total federal debt. And it was under Republican control of Congress and the White House that the policies driving our surging deficits were put in place.

It's not too hard to understand the political convenience of knee-jerk supply-siderism: It offers a justification for tax cuts, which are popular, without spending cuts, which are not. But while libertarians might like the idea of lower taxes, the result is a government that seems cheaper than it is, by deferring the cost. It ends up being a way to let government grow larger while insulating taxpayers from the price tag."
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3355
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:57 pm

Which party gave us those entitlement programs? Programs that are 62% of spending and are merely robbing hard working Peter to pay ever ungrateful Paul.


GF
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8800
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Which party gave us those entitlement programs? Programs that are 62% of spending and are merely robbing hard working Peter to pay ever ungrateful Paul.


GF


Both parties did . The quest to end Social Security, Medicare. Medicaid, Unemployment and Welfare are all about Grandparents robbing from their Grandchildren. driven by woefully misinformed people.
I have paid in hundreds of thousands into these programs of which I will only get a percentage back. I am fine with that because we do this to make things better for those that can't work or couldn't work and earn as much as others.

So called conservatives( I like to call them ignorant ) like to ignore the sick, disabled, elderly, and destitute, in their quest to bankrupt this country.

https://www.ssa.gov/history/tally.html Republicans and Democrats overwhelmingly voted for Social Secuirty. The fact that the republicans were so poorly represented in both chambers should tell you a lot about what lead to social security.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1968
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:38 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Which party gave us those entitlement programs? Programs that are 62% of spending and are merely robbing hard working Peter to pay ever ungrateful Paul.

GF


Perfectly agree. And Paul that’s on welfare is constantly “in need” of something else, and is always calling to “tax the rich!”. There certainly ought to be some limits to that.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
What and many others with simplistic thoughts or wealth and taxes and the government chronically misunderstand is that taxes don't impact wealth and the wealthy, as much as the markets and economy do. And those are driven by stability combined with proper management by the government.

Pay you way (increase receipts -taxes in this case-), reduce expenses (make cuts -welfare programs, useless programs, or changes to funding methods-), make something far more valuable than tricks like tax cuts: a stable and lasting economy.

Tugg


Perfectly agree. High taxes and social programs take away incentives for people and businesses to be more productive, but the worst is that they distort the markets, altering their normal operation.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:12 pm

casinterest wrote:
The quest to end Social Security, Medicare. Medicaid, Unemployment and Welfare are all about Grandparents robbing from their Grandchildren.


Then what else this living beyond our means is? Look at all the debts at all levels - federal, state, municipal. It costs close to a trillion per year to just maintain federal debt. Already And - we keep expanding programs. Welfare for illegal migrants? Who is going to pay all that? South American nations where these migrants are from? Nope. Our children will, nobody else. By means of outright extractive taxes and refusing themselves in many life’s goodies or even necessities.

casinterest wrote:
So called conservatives( I like to call them ignorant ) like to ignore the sick, disabled, elderly, and destitute, in their quest to bankrupt this country.

The ideas of helping hand to sick and destitute sounds great, but in reality of 21st century - where are the resources for all that? When these ideas were first moved and the programs were adopted, country overall was much better off, and the ratio of working population to that on social programs was far better. Now we have ageing population, millions of migrants who were attracted to those social programs. There is simply too few workers and too many those who need help.

Hence we simply can’t just say “yes” to any help request that comes along. All we can still talk about is basic of basic needs at the basic of basic level - such as a room (possibly in a shared accommodation), some food stamps and that’s about it. America is a big and diverse country, and costs to cover those needs (housing, healthcare) vary greatly. There is no allowance for “they want this, and don’t want that”. Those who come in seeking help should be expected to apply more effort to care for themselves, and be ready for more compromises, such as to live in big or small place, where in the country, climate. There is no allowance for “they want this, and don’t want that”.


casinterest wrote:
The fact that the republicans were so poorly represented in both chambers should tell you a lot about what lead to social security.


It’s clear to what led to Social Security in the first place, but the reality in the society was much different back then. Now, also the world has by far more competition in it.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8800
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The quest to end Social Security, Medicare. Medicaid, Unemployment and Welfare are all about Grandparents robbing from their Grandchildren.


Then what else this living beyond our means is? Look at all the debts at all levels - federal, state, municipal. It costs close to a trillion per year to just maintain federal debt. Already And - we keep expanding programs. Welfare for illegal migrants? Who is going to pay all that? South American nations where these migrants are from? Nope. Our children will, nobody else. By means of outright extractive taxes and refusing themselves in many life’s goodies or even necessities.

You need to stop watching whatever news outlets you are watching about migrants,. They are lying to you. The Migrants are all paying taxes through fake tax records or through sales taxes when they purchase items, but they can't get any of those social security, medicare, or other benefits back.
As for the debt. It is defensive spending'/wars that drive up the debts, also very piss poor financial managment by the GOP. This whole tax cut is only driving the deficit up. You can't keep paying for F-35 if you are only bringing in the income to pay for a corsair. If we were to cut out the "Entitlements" the US economy would collapse as the only thing funding the contiunued interest and budget deficits in defense is the very real taxes brough in by social security and medicaid.
anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
So called conservatives( I like to call them ignorant ) like to ignore the sick, disabled, elderly, and destitute, in their quest to bankrupt this country.

The ideas of helping hand to sick and destitute sounds great, but in reality of 21st century - where are the resources for all that? When these ideas were first moved and the programs were adopted, country overall was much better off, and the ratio of working population to that on social programs was far better. Now we have ageing population, millions of migrants who were attracted to those social programs. There is simply too few workers and too many those who need help.

Hence we simply can’t just say “yes” to any help request that comes along. All we can still talk about is basic of basic needs at the basic of basic level - such as a room (possibly in a shared accommodation), some food stamps and that’s about it. America is a big and diverse country, and costs to cover those needs (housing, healthcare) vary greatly. There is no allowance for “they want this, and don’t want that”. Those who come in seeking help should be expected to apply more effort to care for themselves, and be ready for more compromises, such as to live in big or small place, where in the country, climate. There is no allowance for “they want this, and don’t want that”.


Once again, quit watching your crappy lying news sources. These people are some of the hardest workers I have ever seen. Do you know why they come here? Because there are jobs. Jobs that people don't want to work hard at in the US. They don't apply for these services unless their kids are already citizens, and then it is the kid that we have given citizenship too that needs the resources.
anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The fact that the republicans were so poorly represented in both chambers should tell you a lot about what lead to social security.


It’s clear to what led to Social Security in the first place, but the reality in the society was much different back then. Now, also the world has by far more competition in it.


[/quote]
The reality is that the greatest generation and their parents saw what happened when you don't take care of everyone. The GOP has become a liar's club of the worst xenophobia's and racism, and as long as people listen to their bulshit lines about illegal migrants, then the country is never going to tackle the real issues facing it.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:52 am

casinterest wrote:
You need to stop watching whatever news outlets you are watching about migrants,. They are lying to you. The Migrants are all paying taxes through fake tax records or through sales taxes when they purchase items, but they can't get any of those social security, medicare, or other benefits back.

I have migrated in my life twice, and, trust me, I am able to distinguish lies, as well as have an idea what the real "tough migrant talks" are and what's going on in their communities. First - you wrote about faking tax records to pay taxes. How does that even make sense? People normally fake papers to NOT pay taxes, but doing it the other way around is something new. Second - in reality a minority of migrants are attracted by jobs, majority of them are attracted to welfare ("in the USA, they will give you an apartment! - Wow!", "you get food stamps - nice!", "there is free special medical card", etc.). I am not even mentioning wide-spread things in those communities like working for cash, and then collecting Section 8, Medicaid and food stamps. "Legal work for check? - Nuh, take your 'generous' offer elsewhere. Cash only please!".

Yes, there are some who say "I want to get a job to help family back home". But - European migration story shows that the primary motivation for migration is exactly welfare, not even war back home. Nobody from their migrants want to go to Poland or Baltic states, they all want to be in Germany, France or Northern Europe. And - only a small minority of those migrants are employed.

casinterest wrote:
As for the debt. It is defensive spending'/wars that drive up the debts, also very piss poor financial managment by the GOP. This whole tax cut is only driving the deficit up. You can't keep paying for F-35 if you are only bringing in the income to pay for a corsair. If we were to cut out the "Entitlements" the US economy would collapse as the only thing funding the contiunued interest and budget deficits in defense is the very real taxes brough in by social security and medicaid.


Sure, I have mentioned we can't afford this defense, I am not arguing with you on this one. But even then, to be fair, you can't eliminate it completely. In 2019, we will have collected about $3.4 trillion in taxes, while having spent maybe 4.4 trillion. That's just north of a trillion of deficit. Another 800-900 billion are just to maintain the debt (yes, a quarter of collected taxes will go to treasury holders). Even if you zero out our national security expenses completely, you won't get balanced budget, but you probably can (and should) halve them. Yes, this will imply shutting down all foreign presence and ditching nearly all the allies, but the USA needs to sustain its economy somehow.

So back to my main question - even if you halve the defense expenditures, there is still 400-500 or so billion dollars of gap to close, if we keep the volume of help to those destitute as is. Where's the money for all this splendor? Gotta get to managing this splendor somehow.

casinterest wrote:
The reality is that the greatest generation and their parents saw what happened when you don't take care of everyone.

And what about grandkids of those generations? You realize that they will pay with a lot of interest for this "care for everyone", paying an arm and a leg in taxes, having rather low living standard, making it do with inadequate and aged infrastructure, etc - right? If we don't want that - we gotta have a few hard conversations. "If you are coming to this country - sorry, you are not eligible for benefits until you qualify for citizenship and have worked for a few years". "If you are coming here for welfare - please don't", "Your family is in the middle class, but your grandparents are receiving food stamps and subsidized housing; it's time for you to pick up the responsibility for your grandparents, if you please. Society can no longer afford that", "you came here a while back, but the IRS still hasn't received any W2 from you. Perhaps this migration did not work out, please consider moving back to your country", "You have been living on Section 8 in San Francisco and haven't worked. Sorry, we understand it's a great city but we can't afford to pay your rent there any longer. Please consider moving to neighboring Nevada.". And such.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8800
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:41 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
You need to stop watching whatever news outlets you are watching about migrants,. They are lying to you. The Migrants are all paying taxes through fake tax records or through sales taxes when they purchase items, but they can't get any of those social security, medicare, or other benefits back.

I have migrated in my life twice, and, trust me, I am able to distinguish lies, as well as have an idea what the real "tough migrant talks" are and what's going on in their communities. First - you wrote about faking tax records to pay taxes. How does that even make sense? People normally fake papers to NOT pay taxes, but doing it the other way around is something new. Second - in reality a minority of migrants are attracted by jobs, majority of them are attracted to welfare ("in the USA, they will give you an apartment! - Wow!", "you get food stamps - nice!", "there is free special medical card", etc.). I am not even mentioning wide-spread things in those communities like working for cash, and then collecting Section 8, Medicaid and food stamps. "Legal work for check? - Nuh, take your 'generous' offer elsewhere. Cash only please!".

Yes, there are some who say "I want to get a job to help family back home". But - European migration story shows that the primary motivation for migration is exactly welfare, not even war back home. Nobody from their migrants want to go to Poland or Baltic states, they all want to be in Germany, France or Northern Europe. And - only a small minority of those migrants are employed.


Immigrants obtain TaxID's in the US. That are used when they apply for real jobs. Farms, Factories, and many other places. They pay social security , medicare, and income taxes in those jobs. There are over 4 million Illegal immigrants that do this as well. They can apply for income tax refunds as well, but they will never get the social security or medicare benefits for themselves unless they become citizens.
f they have kids that are US citizens, those kids can get education, food stamps and other items. But the illegals cannot . They depend on under the table jobs, Churches and charities, not the government. That is the difference between some of the EU nations and the US. One can argue that birthright citizenship is an issue as it creates a problem here in the US where there are many children citizens with illegal parents, and that is the crux of the current immigration issue.

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
As for the debt. It is defensive spending'/wars that drive up the debts, also very piss poor financial managment by the GOP. This whole tax cut is only driving the deficit up. You can't keep paying for F-35 if you are only bringing in the income to pay for a corsair. If we were to cut out the "Entitlements" the US economy would collapse as the only thing funding the contiunued interest and budget deficits in defense is the very real taxes brough in by social security and medicaid.


Sure, I have mentioned we can't afford this defense, I am not arguing with you on this one. But even then, to be fair, you can't eliminate it completely. In 2019, we will have collected about $3.4 trillion in taxes, while having spent maybe 4.4 trillion. That's just north of a trillion of deficit. Another 800-900 billion are just to maintain the debt (yes, a quarter of collected taxes will go to treasury holders). Even if you zero out our national security expenses completely, you won't get balanced budget, but you probably can (and should) halve them. Yes, this will imply shutting down all foreign presence and ditching nearly all the allies, but the USA needs to sustain its economy somehow.

So back to my main question - even if you halve the defense expenditures, there is still 400-500 or so billion dollars of gap to close, if we keep the volume of help to those destitute as is. Where's the money for all this splendor? Gotta get to managing this splendor somehow.


Not necessarily. The US can carry debt for a long time, but in the US the debt deficit is the difference between what the government outlays vs what they collect. That debt is sold to people as bonds, which actually means other countries and people are funding the debt. It will only be a big issue when other countries and people stop buying the debt. The US can reduce spending or increase taxes. The tax increase is more likely to happen going forward, as defensive and debt payments make up the largest portion of the budget.
anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The reality is that the greatest generation and their parents saw what happened when you don't take care of everyone.

And what about grandkids of those generations? You realize that they will pay with a lot of interest for this "care for everyone", paying an arm and a leg in taxes, having rather low living standard, making it do with inadequate and aged infrastructure, etc - right? If we don't want that - we gotta have a few hard conversations. "If you are coming to this country - sorry, you are not eligible for benefits until you qualify for citizenship and have worked for a few years". "If you are coming here for welfare - please don't", "Your family is in the middle class, but your grandparents are receiving food stamps and subsidized housing; it's time for you to pick up the responsibility for your grandparents, if you please. Society can no longer afford that", "you came here a while back, but the IRS still hasn't received any W2 from you. Perhaps this migration did not work out, please consider moving back to your country", "You have been living on Section 8 in San Francisco and haven't worked. Sorry, we understand it's a great city but we can't afford to pay your rent there any longer. Please consider moving to neighboring Nevada.". And such.

[/quote]
The US is the land of opportunity, and it will stay that way. Your misconceptions about where all the money is coming from is part of the issue.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1968
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:04 am

casinterest wrote:
Not necessarily. The US can carry debt for a long time, but in the US the debt deficit is the difference between what the government outlays vs what they collect. That debt is sold to people as bonds, which actually means other countries and people are funding the debt. It will only be a big issue when other countries and people stop buying the debt.


The USA is able to carry debt as long as investors are confident that they will be repaid according to treasury note's coupon schedule, and at least maintain purchasing power of their investment. Just as any other borrower, be it another country, a business, an individual.

casinterest wrote:
The US can reduce spending or increase taxes. The tax increase is more likely to happen going forward, as defensive and debt payments make up the largest portion of the budget.

And what kind of taxes will those need to be? By how much do you need to raise them? Like double? And then what - how much of that will you actually be able to collect? You can jack up higher brackets to 60% - but in 21st century there are plenty of other nations that will be happy with half of that, and you'll simply get exodus of taxpayers and businesses. Do you need that? Hence, btw, Trump's decrease in corporate tax rates; it's in 20% range pretty much anywhere in the Western world.

casinterest wrote:
The US is the land of opportunity, and it will stay that way. Your misconceptions about where all the money is coming from is part of the issue.


I think it's quite clear where the money can come from - either taxes or borrowing. As I mentioned - real ability to raise and collect taxes may be surprisingly limited. So where's the money, dude? :)
 
tommy1808
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:57 am

anrec80 wrote:
and you'll simply get exodus of taxpayers and businesses. Do you need that?


Funny statement considering that real world data proofs you wrong, and has done so since just about forever. High tax countries are just as often immigration countries as low tax countries are emigration countries. Russia is practically a tax haven, but loses people in the millions, Germany is a freaking high tax country, and guess where lots of them went...

best regards
Thomas.
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:28 pm

anrec80 wrote:

The USA is able to carry debt as long as investors are confident that they will be repaid according to treasury note's coupon schedule, and at least maintain purchasing power of their investment. Just as any other borrower, be it another country, a business, an individual.

That is entirely correct, and one of the reasons I was so against the latest tax cut.
anrec80 wrote:
And what kind of taxes will those need to be? By how much do you need to raise them? Like double? And then what - how much of that will you actually be able to collect? You can jack up higher brackets to 60% - but in 21st century there are plenty of other nations that will be happy with half of that, and you'll simply get exodus of taxpayers and businesses. Do you need that? Hence, btw, Trump's decrease in corporate tax rates; it's in 20% range pretty much anywhere in the Western world.


Growth and inflation automatically push people into higher tax brackets, but when the GOP goes around and flattens the brackets it prevents growth from ever getting to a point where taxes can cover the deficit. Especially when the high growth items( interest, defense, and medicare) are growing to fast.
CItizens will not leave their homes and families in droves from the USA as long as it fosters innovation and competition. What will force them to leave is when the services that they need to get the job done( roads, electricity, buildings, airports, shipping) along with the personal services no longer exist because the middle class no longer exists to do the work.
anrec80 wrote:
I think it's quite clear where the money can come from - either taxes or borrowing. As I mentioned - real ability to raise and collect taxes may be surprisingly limited. So where's the money, dude? :)


Where it has been for many years. Thin air and goodwill.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:28 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1PM0B0


So that 1.5 Trillion cut has had no major impact on Capex plans. Where will we get all the growth from?


The National Association of Business Economics’ (NABE) quarterly business conditions poll published on Monday found that while some companies reported accelerating investments because of lower corporate taxes, 84 percent of respondents said they had not changed plans. That compares to 81 percent in the previous survey published in October.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:42 pm

In another stunning "win" for the Tax reform win, it was reported today that the Fed had to cut the federal rate today due to a lack of growth.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fed-meet ... 34497.html

The cut comes as the Fed continues to worry about a possible slowdown in the U.S. economy. The Federal Open Market Committee statement released Wednesday recycled language from its June meeting describing business fixed investment as “soft” and said inflationary pressures “remain low.”



Where is the growth?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1968
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:34 pm

casinterest wrote:
In another stunning "win" for the Tax reform win, it was reported today that the Fed had to cut the federal rate today due to a lack of growth.

The major winners - American businesses. Hopefully the tax cuts stay and they will no longer be ripped off outright.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:19 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
In another stunning "win" for the Tax reform win, it was reported today that the Fed had to cut the federal rate today due to a lack of growth.

The major winners - American businesses. Hopefully the tax cuts stay and they will no longer be ripped off outright.


Really? Seems like some one has been watching to much Right wing networks that lie.

U.S. GDP growth will slow to 2.1% in 2019 from 3% in 2018. It will be 2% in 2020 and 1.8% in 2021. That's according to the most recent forecast released at the Federal Open Market Committee meeting on June 19, 2019. The projected slowdown in 2019 and beyond is a side effect of the trade war, a key component of Trump's economic policies.


https://www.thebalance.com/us-economic-outlook-3305669
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:36 pm

casinterest wrote:
Really? Seems like some one has been watching to much Right wing networks that lie.

Just wait and see how the story evolves.

It went from "tax cuts will help us achieve 3-6% growth" to "well, tax cuts helped us avoid a recession".

Kinda like the wall from "Mexico will pay" to "Mexico will reimburse us".
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
anrec80
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:52 pm

casinterest wrote:

Really? Seems like some one has been watching to much Right wing networks that lie.


I am not talking about networks or GDP growth. More about where someone’s hard earned money should stay. It belongs to the individual who earned it, and that’s where they should stay. And not extracted in the form of exorbitant taxes.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:06 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Really? Seems like some one has been watching to much Right wing networks that lie.


I am not talking about networks or GDP growth. More about where someone’s hard earned money should stay. It belongs to the individual who earned it, and that’s where they should stay. And not extracted in the form of exorbitant taxes.


Are you suggesting Jared Kushner’s income is hard-earned? His father handed him vast real estate holdings, his father-in-law appointed him chief appeaser of the Gulf states, and his skin/hands are as porcelain at 38 as the day he was born. Let’s not even pretend that’s the same thing as a Missouri sheet metal producer or Napa vineyard in terms of ground-up hard work.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
Posts: 68
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:11 pm

I don't care if Kushner got his money from the family's Twinkie concession. It is his, not yours nor anyone else's. That is the problem, people are coveting someone else's wealth. It does not end well. Socialism doesn't work.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:18 pm

extender wrote:
I don't care if Kushner got his money from the family's Twinkie concession. It is his, not yours nor anyone else's. That is the problem, people are coveting someone else's wealth. It does not end well. Socialism doesn't work.


I am a business owner - I take care of my own and don’t covet a thing. I just think hoarding and whoring are immoral and disgusting. If he can enhance his wealth by gaming the system while the rest of us play by the rules, then he can afford to assist with enhancement of critical services. End of story.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:20 pm

Your opinion. I too own a business, and what I make or how I make it nobody's business. Bring the flat tax.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:34 pm

extender wrote:
Your opinion. I too own a business, and what I make or how I make it nobody's business. Bring the flat tax.


Then worry about yourself. The middle class has had a foot on it since the glory days of 5% growth ended in 1972, and people aren’t going to take it much longer. Rewarding the guys wearing the boots isn’t sitting well with most Americans.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:52 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

Then worry about yourself. The middle class has had a foot on it since the glory days of 5% growth ended in 1972, and people aren’t going to take it much longer. Rewarding the guys wearing the boots isn’t sitting well with most Americans.


Neither are those telling me to pay my fair share.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:55 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

Are you suggesting Jared Kushner’s income is hard-earned? His father handed him vast real estate holdings, his father-in-law appointed him chief appeaser of the Gulf states, and his skin/hands are as porcelain at 38 as the day he was born. Let’s not even pretend that’s the same thing as a Missouri sheet metal producer or Napa vineyard in terms of ground-up hard work.


Why do you need to count someone else’s money? Each individual, and the society as the whole, should focus on counting their money and assets, not someone else’s. Everyone, every family earns their money hard, by enhancing their skills via education and countless nights in the office. Nobody gets anything for free in this life. But all this is someone “behind the scenes”.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

I am a business owner - I take care of my own and don’t covet a thing. I just think hoarding and whoring are immoral and disgusting. If he can enhance his wealth by gaming the system while the rest of us play by the rules, then he can afford to assist with enhancement of critical services. End of story.


Then we have the case for system being simple and taxes flat and low. Services need to be run in cost-conscious way. This way nobody is gaming anything.

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