stlgph
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:21 pm

Small pods won't work in New York City. There's simply too many people needing to move at any given time.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:19 pm

Flighty wrote:
Rail pollutes more and is more unsafe than airline flying.

Local rail will probably be obsolete in 20 years as pod-based street (or tunnel) transportation takes over. And it will. The notion of "waiting for the train on the platform" likely will not exist in 30 years. No one will be willing to spend their time doing that.

But, the financial burdens and debts of rail will probably continue for another 100 years.


Are you serious ? have you thought of the capacity of some rail systems ? London has a peak service of between 20 and 30 trains per hour on central parts of the underground, each train with approaching 1000 passengers. There are 10 busier metro systems in the World !!
 
petertenthije
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:32 pm

Flighty wrote:
Local rail will probably be obsolete in 20 years as pod-based street (or tunnel) transportation takes over. And it will. The notion of "waiting for the train on the platform" likely will not exist in 30 years. No one will be willing to spend their time doing that.
That is just totally unrealistic in the large cities, not until “Strar Trek” style transporters are invented. The volume of people that are moving around during rush hour can not be handled by private vehicles only. Even if all these vehicles are tiny pods or cars the size of a Smart or Fiat 500.

If you do not mind me asking, what is the largest city you lived in (not just tourism).
Attamottamotta!
 
af773atmsp
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:39 pm

Flighty wrote:
Rail pollutes more and is more unsafe than airline flying.

Local rail will probably be obsolete in 20 years as pod-based street (or tunnel) transportation takes over. And it will. The notion of "waiting for the train on the platform" likely will not exist in 30 years. No one will be willing to spend their time doing that.

But, the financial burdens and debts of rail will probably continue for another 100 years.


People had the same viewpoint when the interstate highway system was being built and cars were becoming affordable. Look how that turned out for us.
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salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:44 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
Look how that turned out for us.
Please explain.
 
apodino
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:08 pm

Flighty wrote:
Rail pollutes more and is more unsafe than airline flying.

Local rail will probably be obsolete in 20 years as pod-based street (or tunnel) transportation takes over. And it will. The notion of "waiting for the train on the platform" likely will not exist in 30 years. No one will be willing to spend their time doing that.

But, the financial burdens and debts of rail will probably continue for another 100 years.

Rail has a pretty good safety record, though not quite on par with Air. I do take issue with the first part of your post though. In NYC, rail does not pollute much at all as every rail line is electrified, and aside from the Genesis engines going up the Hudson River, just about every train in NYC is electric. Every Amtrak train on the Northeast Corridor is electric, not diesel. No pollution there at all.

And don't even get me started on your POD claim. I know Elon Musk has a vision of this for intercity travel in the coming years, but it will not work in a city like New York, Tokyo, London, or somewhere like that.
 
Flighty
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:13 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Local rail will probably be obsolete in 20 years as pod-based street (or tunnel) transportation takes over. And it will. The notion of "waiting for the train on the platform" likely will not exist in 30 years. No one will be willing to spend their time doing that.
That is just totally unrealistic in the large cities, not until “Strar Trek” style transporters are invented. The volume of people that are moving around during rush hour can not be handled by private vehicles only. Even if all these vehicles are tiny pods or cars the size of a Smart or Fiat 500.

If you do not mind me asking, what is the largest city you lived in (not just tourism).


2 years in a 6 million city. 6 months in a 20 million city. The consensus in all of those cities happens to be, rail is inadequate and will not serve the transportation needs going forward. They are literally packed out. No growth can happen.

Pods will happen sooner than people think. First, the rich 5% will use them. Then 50%, then 95% just like smartphones.

There WILL be rail enthusiasts, just like there are rotary telephone and tube television enthusiasts today. There will be youtube channels about activating the historic subway line for a pleasure cruise.
Last edited by Flighty on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
apodino
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:21 pm

salttee wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
get off your high horse............
If you didn't like my tone then you must not have read apodino's pity potty series of nonsensical whines and innuendo. From my POV that was disgusting.
af773atmsp wrote:
I think studies on environmental impact are good, but they don't have to be dragged out over years.
This is how you convince yourself that "Red Tape" is somehow up their with the plague and Nazism. You throw out a tag line "environmental studies" which is actually a dog whistle to your fellow libertarian blockheads and walk away from the conversation, even though it is at the crux of your argument.

The population of the US in 1900, when Penn Station was started, was seventy six million, the current population is 323 million. But let's refine those numbers a bit: of the seventy six million people in the US in 1900, almost nine million were black, and there were over nine million people of Polish descent; throw in a few million to account for the Dagos, Jews, native American and Hispanic populations and we are down to fifty million people who had even the slightest consideration as humans with needs of their own outside of JP Morgan and John D.
As far as environmental concerns go, this chart should shine a light.
Image
We almost made deer extinct in our part of north America. But environmental concerns are not the major reason for "red tape" hindering construction. These days, in this country, the developers have to bend to the neighborhood, we don't allow methyl isocyanate plants to be built on the middle of dense population centers. We also don't (usually) allow chicken farms in residential neighborhoods, because the people of the neighborhoods want to control their environments: they have rights. A guy with a lot of money cannot come in and change the character of a neighborhood. And in my opinion, that's the way it should be.
af773atmsp wrote:
As for the government stepping in to help the railroads, that is complete BS.
Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak
af773atmsp wrote:
Once the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 was signed it was a near fatal blow for the American railroad industry.
That comes off as another Libertarian dog whistle, its a whine about how gubermnt has destroyed merica. The interstate highway system is the best thing that ever happened to this country, it liberated us all. That's called progress.

Once more I would like to point out that the ubiquitous chatter about "politics" and "politicians" is nonsensical, it really is an argument against humanity itself; there is no other way. If "politics" bothers some people as much as they claim, the only solution I can offer them is to shoot themselves; with 7.6 billion people on the planet, there's no room for them to go off and live in isolation (not that any libertarian would actuall do that anyway).

Saltee, af773atmsp partly understood the point I was trying to make, and you made a post that criticized a position I didn't take nor was I trying to make in the post. The point I was trying to make is that if you look at most projects undertaken in the private sector, because most of these projects have much better oversight than public projects, they can do things more efficiently and less costly than projects in the public sector. What I was trying to say is that people in the Public sector need to look at how projects can be done more cost effectively, and efficiently and then see to it that the projects are run that way. Taxpayers and the public benefit in the long run because you have more money freed up for other things, and the projects get done quicker so the public can reap the benefits of these projects sooner. Let me be clear on something. I am not a libertarian when it comes to transport issues. The public transportation system in New York City, which includes the Subway, Metro-North, and Long Island Railroad is something that in our day and age is something the government should be investing in, and sadly a lot of cities that would benefit from something don't have anywhere near the setup, and thus too many cars are on the roads and the highways cannot keep up with demand.

As great a project as the interstate highway was, sadly it did hurt the railroads in the long run, and I think at the time rail was viewed as a thing of the past. I think if politicians of that era could see what we have now, they would have worked harder to save a lot of the railroads, and I think the infastructure would be much better.

As far as Unions go, they are needed, period. But...the unions themselves need to step up their game. I happen to belong to the same union that the NY Transit workers are represented by, and my workgroup is in the process of replacing that union for doing nothing for our group other than collecting dues money and not providing much support at all. But this belongs in another thread.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:13 pm

Flighty wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Local rail will probably be obsolete in 20 years as pod-based street (or tunnel) transportation takes over. And it will. The notion of "waiting for the train on the platform" likely will not exist in 30 years. No one will be willing to spend their time doing that.
That is just totally unrealistic in the large cities, not until “Strar Trek” style transporters are invented. The volume of people that are moving around during rush hour can not be handled by private vehicles only. Even if all these vehicles are tiny pods or cars the size of a Smart or Fiat 500.

If you do not mind me asking, what is the largest city you lived in (not just tourism).


2 years in a 6 million city. 6 months in a 20 million city. The consensus in all of those cities happens to be, rail is inadequate and will not serve the transportation needs going forward. They are literally packed out. No growth can happen.

Pods will happen sooner than people think. First, the rich 5% will use them. Then 50%, then 95% just like smartphones.

There WILL be rail enthusiasts, just like there are rotary telephone and tube television enthusiasts today. There will be youtube channels about activating the historic subway line for a pleasure cruise.


So you claim to know the views of 26 million people?

Ever been to Oslo? Modest sized city, but has the best public transit system I've ever seen, and they continue to look for ways to improve and expand it. And yes, that includes rail. However, you're not exactly wrong about using pods. A few cities are testing them to actually complement transit instead of the other way around. Simply get off the train or bus at a transit station where a pod is waiting that will take you to your destination. Then the pod will return to the station and wait for the next customer.

Also there already are rail enthusiasts including myself. Except we take steam trains or older passenger trains for pleasure cruises. I take them because we barely have any scheduled passenger rail in Minneapolis, so I have very limited options to ride a train. With that said I also know how important they are for commuters and people trying to get from Point A to Point B. I lived in Oslo for four months and took the tram, subway, or regional train almost everyday.
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Flighty
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:01 pm

Yeah I have been to Oslo, & generally I use public transportation quite often. Today, it is a good solution for many things. I am sure the Oslo system is great. It is a small city and also one of the richest in the world, so its financial performance is probably not an issue for them. In many other cases, the financial performance of rail is just remarkably, remarkably bad.

About the 26 million people I just mean their subways are at capacity, with no prospect of growing. Which is to say, yes, subways are popular and well liked, but also the crowding is unsatisfactory.

Yes, a few mega cities like New York and Seoul are utterly dependent on subways. That won't change overnight - but growth is pretty done for those systems. I imagine China an India will still build strongly for a while. The US will not. We are done with subways.

In the next 20 years, ground transportation is going to be automated. More change will occur in the next 20 yrs than since 1900. A city like London or New York will give 1-2 lanes over to pods, and the pods will not have to stop. People will zip around. Cars will just get in the way and slow thousands of people down. I bet we will see the pod prototypes within five years in those cities. Without a steering wheel. Then they will get their own lanes, and then people won't have any patience to ride in a slow expensive car. The NY subway has a century of honorable service and remains essential today. No arguing that.
 
petertenthije
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:05 am

Flighty wrote:
In the next 20 years, ground transportation is going to be automated. More change will occur in the next 20 yrs than since 1900. A city like London or New York will give 1-2 lanes over to pods, and the pods will not have to stop. People will zip around. Cars will just get in the way and slow thousands of people down. I bet we will see the pod prototypes within five years in those cities. Without a steering wheel. Then they will get their own lanes, and then people won't have any patience to ride in a slow expensive car. The NY subway has a century of honorable service and remains essential today. No arguing that.

Where do you want to place these pod lanes? There is no space for them in the large cities.

Assume for a second your pod proposal where implemented, disregarding hurdles like space constraints, NIMBY’ism etc. What would be the difference between a pod and a single car? The pod could be made smaller, that’s the only gain against individual cars. But if that’s the aim, then you might as well mandate people to use carshare programs based around small cars like Smarts and Fiat 500s to get the same effect.
Some people say that by having pods “talk” with each other they can drive closer together thus gaining time. This would work on interstates, but during rush hour cars already drive bumper-on-bumper within cities and often city ringroads as well, not much potential for improvements here except making the cars/pods smaller. And you only need a single “non communicating” car to muck up much of the pods communication’s gains.

I asked you earlier for the largest city you live in. You kind a skirted around it by saying you lived in a city of 6 and 20 million. The city you lived in was probably not dependant on public transit to move the masses. Some cities can manage without a lot of public transit, since they got lots of room and enough money to build massive roads and junctions. If i had to guess, you live(d) in Detroit* or one of the larger Texas cities? But cities based on ancient road layouts do not have that luxury.

*no, detroit does not have enough money to build infrastructure, but it is a city that at one time had close to 2 million people with associated infrastructure, that now has less then half the people but still roughly the same infrastructure
Attamottamotta!
 
PPVRA
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:37 am

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
I was watching a documentary called the rise and fall of Penn Station. Back in the days when the original Penn Station (Not this underground maze we have now) was first built, it was all done with private money as the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Which at the time was the largest corporation in the US believe it or not) had a huge vision to bring his railroad across the Hudson into Manhattan. When folks doubted him, he put his money where is mouth was and got it done. If the rail lines in NYC had been the public state owned commuter lines they are now, I am not sure that this project would have ever been done.

I read that same New York times article the OP posted. It is pretty sad what it takes to get things done anymore. One of the biggest issues is because most of these systems are owned by the public sector, inevitably politicians are the ones that have to get things done. And this creates a lot of unneccesary red tape (Something to his credit Trump has tried to address) to the government agencies, and projects that should have been done a long time ago still are tied up in burecratic mess. Here is just a few of the ones I can think of.

1. In Boston, there are four key things I think should have been done by now, and another one that I think could be done. 1 is the Blue Line extension on both ends, Lynn on one end, and to the Red LIne at Charles on the other end. Second is the Green Line Extension, which should have been well underway by now. Lechmere station should have already been replaced the last time the Green line was shut down north of North Station. Third would be the North-South Rail Link, which should have been finished with the Big Dig. And lastly would be the replacement service for the old elevated Orange Line on Washington Street. Dudley Square in Boston is the very heart of the Black Community in Boston, and for their service to be taken away and imo not sufficently replaced is inexcusable.

2. A new San Diego airport. This has been beat to death in the main aviation forum.

3. An extension of the Las Vegas monorail into the airport on one end and to downtown on the other end.

4. A new C and D terminal at IAD. Again, beat to death in the main forum.

5. Moynahan Penn Station. The Farley building should have been renovated by now, instead Penn Station is still a convuluted mess.

6. I know this isnt the US, but the third LHR runway has to be here too right?

As I said just a few. And while we as taxpayers give millions of dollars to billionaires to pay for lavish new sports stadiums (Why politicians can be blackmailed by wealthy sports owners still eludes me) we neglect money for some of these other projects. And these dont get managed right because politicians only think short term, which is to the next election and never on what happens in the long run. I could write a book on the subject. But government by necessity runs these projects, and that leads to the problems mentioned in this article. And even if they do get stuff built, it doesnt always work properly. BER still isnt open, and the big dig had some issues with collapsing tunnels.

I dont know what the answer is long run. I wish it didnt have to be political, but it may have to be.

That is shallow thinking at its grandest.
So you pine for the late 19th century when steelworkers worked 12 hour days six and a half days a week and when they were splattered with molten metal and died of their burns (which was not at all uncommon in the mills back then) their wives and children were tossed out of the company housing with the last paycheck after the company store took out the balance due: when women also worked 12 hour days in textile mills for subsistence wages, read up on the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire it will give you a slim introduction of how the common folk lived back then. You long for the days of JP Morgan and JD Rockefeller. Just lovely! I just wish there was a way to transport all you libertarian pin heads back to the times you thought were so grand - preferably ten year sentences.

In case you didn't know it, railroads lost their monopoly on long haul transportation after WW2 and were all going bankrupt, until the government stepped in and kept them afloat, because it would have been a huge loss to the nation to have all the track torn up and the land sold for whatever cash it could bring. Without the government, you wouldn't even have a f##king train station because there would be no trains.

In the absence of the above mentioned time machine, IMO all libertarians should be made to at least take a junior college class on economics, so they can be brought out of their ludicrous fantasy land.
As for your argument with "politics", please try to understand that your argument is really with humanity, because that thing called "politics" is the only way humans get things done. Even Mussolini and Stalin, - even the Roman Emperors - had to deal with "politics".


LOL the government is the reason those railroad companies were going bankrupt in the first place. And the unions, too. Not too different than whats going on in NYC today.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Redd
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:39 pm

Meanwhile in Sweden they are building an 18km (11mile) tunnel bypass system for 3.1 billion Euros.....Out of solid rock and up to 200ft under the waterways in the area.....Looks like win for 'socialism' :bigthumbsup:

"The project will see a 21-km (13-mile) stretch of motorway installed to connect northern and southern Stockholm. Of that length, 18 km (11 miles) will be underground to bypass inconvenient waterways. This will place the project among the longest road tunnels in the world.

It is also one of the largest civil engineering projects in Sweden. The E4 Stockholm Bypass is expected to cost around €3.1 billion in 2009 prices. Planning for the project began as early as 2001, with construction beginning earlier in 2015 and scheduled to end in 2025."

https://www.engineering.com/BIM/Article ... unnel.aspx
 
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WarRI1
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:46 am

Redd wrote:
Meanwhile in Sweden they are building an 18km (11mile) tunnel bypass system for 3.1 billion Euros.....Out of solid rock and up to 200ft under the waterways in the area.....Looks like win for 'socialism' :bigthumbsup:

"The project will see a 21-km (13-mile) stretch of motorway installed to connect northern and southern Stockholm. Of that length, 18 km (11 miles) will be underground to bypass inconvenient waterways. This will place the project among the longest road tunnels in the world.

It is also one of the largest civil engineering projects in Sweden. The E4 Stockholm Bypass is expected to cost around €3.1 billion in 2009 prices. Planning for the project began as early as 2001, with construction beginning earlier in 2015 and scheduled to end in 2025."

https://www.engineering.com/BIM/Article ... unnel.aspx


I have one question, is any of the project using union labor?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Redd
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:03 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Redd wrote:
Meanwhile in Sweden they are building an 18km (11mile) tunnel bypass system for 3.1 billion Euros.....Out of solid rock and up to 200ft under the waterways in the area.....Looks like win for 'socialism' :bigthumbsup:

"The project will see a 21-km (13-mile) stretch of motorway installed to connect northern and southern Stockholm. Of that length, 18 km (11 miles) will be underground to bypass inconvenient waterways. This will place the project among the longest road tunnels in the world.

It is also one of the largest civil engineering projects in Sweden. The E4 Stockholm Bypass is expected to cost around €3.1 billion in 2009 prices. Planning for the project began as early as 2001, with construction beginning earlier in 2015 and scheduled to end in 2025."

https://www.engineering.com/BIM/Article ... unnel.aspx


I have one question, is any of the project using union labor?



70% of the entire working population in Sweden belongs to a working union. All construction workers do, as pretty much all other manual laborers, they don't f*ck around with workers rights and wages.
 
salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:58 pm

PPVRA wrote:
LOL the government is the reason those railroad companies were going bankrupt in the first place. And the unions, too. Not too different than whats going on in NYC today.

LOL when do you think the government did this?
and
LOL exactly how do you think the government went about doing this?
 
PPVRA
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:30 pm

salttee wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
LOL the government is the reason those railroad companies were going bankrupt in the first place. And the unions, too. Not too different than whats going on in NYC today.

LOL when do you think the government did this?
and
LOL exactly how do you think the government went about doing this?


You don’t know anything, do you?

When? The government had really stupid regulations all the way up to 1971, starting in the late 1800s.

How? There’s all kinds of ways government damages the rail industry:

1. Credit subsidies, leading to excessive growth—a bubble— then collapsing the industry and the national economy along with it.

2. Absurd labor laws that had nothing to do with safety, but which would get in the way of productivity and progress.

3. Price controls, which prevented revenue management like the airlines do today. This stuff is economically critical for companies like railways and airlines.

That’s theee, but there’s more
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:11 pm

PPVRA wrote:
The government had really stupid regulations all the way up to 1971, starting in the late 1800s.


LOL and you learned all this from a libertarian book you once read? Or was it at freeperville?
 
PPVRA
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:47 pm

salttee wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The government had really stupid regulations all the way up to 1971, starting in the late 1800s.


LOL and you learned all this from a libertarian book you once read? Or was it at freeperville?


LOL nah, it’s called history
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:03 pm

PPVRA wrote:
salttee wrote:
LOL nah, it’s called history

LOL no, those are just things that rattle around in your head.
 
salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:40 pm

apodino wrote:
you made a post that criticized a position I didn't take nor was I trying to make in the post. The point I was trying to make is that if you look at most projects undertaken in the private sector, because most of these projects have much better oversight than public projects, they can do things more efficiently and less costly than projects in the public sector.
I'm not so sure that private sector projects have much better oversight than public projects (I know of one case where a private company built a nuclear plant off of mirrorwise drawings, and didn't find out until the pipes didn't line up) public sector screwups are front page news whereas private sector blunders are covered up lest the shareholders find out. There may be some validity to the criticism, but I believe it has been way overblown, and now in the era where the concept of anarchy has gained such a popular foothold, it is off the charts.

I made my post in the assumption that you were hand in hand with DIRECTFLT, I was offended by the comparison between the turn of the 19th century reality vs turn of the twentieth century circumstance which is invalid in so many ways. But the thing that really got my goat was the sentiment behind "It is pretty sad what it takes to get things done anymore", as if we are living in a hell on Earth here in the 21st century. This strikes me as MAGA talk, I don't know if you are a Trumpster or not, but that's the way it sounds. On both a material and a social sense we are far far better off than we were in 1800, 1900 or 1950. The constant attacks on, and flogging of, the government which is currently so popular is utterly off base IMO.
apodino wrote:
As great a project as the interstate highway was, sadly it did hurt the railroads in the long run, and I think at the time rail was viewed as a thing of the past. I think if politicians of that era could see what we have now, they would have worked harder to save a lot of the railroads, and I think the infrastructure would be much better.
While there is truth in what you say, you are ignoring the social, political and economic realities of the times (early 1950s).

In 1954, WW2 had only been over for nine years, Europe was a shambles, Germany was still an occupied country and the people's memory before the war went back to the depression era, which many people saw as the norm for life on planet earth. Nobody could have known that the country was on the edge of a population explosion and economic boom as what occurred. How could anyone have seen the future need for mass transportation in that era? Most people were afraid that we would slip back to life as it was in the thirties.

Throwing rocks at "government" meddling or whatever is a very myopic stance in this case. I feel obligated to push back at such shortsightedness.

And as you say, unions are a whole different subject.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:14 am

Redd wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Redd wrote:
Meanwhile in Sweden they are building an 18km (11mile) tunnel bypass system for 3.1 billion Euros.....Out of solid rock and up to 200ft under the waterways in the area.....Looks like win for 'socialism' :bigthumbsup:

"The project will see a 21-km (13-mile) stretch of motorway installed to connect northern and southern Stockholm. Of that length, 18 km (11 miles) will be underground to bypass inconvenient waterways. This will place the project among the longest road tunnels in the world.

It is also one of the largest civil engineering projects in Sweden. The E4 Stockholm Bypass is expected to cost around €3.1 billion in 2009 prices. Planning for the project began as early as 2001, with construction beginning earlier in 2015 and scheduled to end in 2025."

https://www.engineering.com/BIM/Article ... unnel.aspx


I have one question, is any of the project using union labor?





70% of the entire working population in Sweden belongs to a working union. All construction workers do, as pretty much all other manual laborers, they don't f*ck around with workers rights and wages.



We have a bunch of Wimps in the US now, no balls to be more exact. They love to be screwed by the wealthy. They love it so much, they elected a Moron for President because he promised more jobs. The trade deficit is through the roof again, but they love him, he lives in a gilded mansion, but they love him, he plays golf, but they love him, he has done more damage to the middleclass on taxes and healthcare, but they love him. One can only come to one conclusion, his supporters are not to bright. I admire the Swedish People, I admire their system, and I wish I could say that about the US. I fought the union fight all my life, and I am sick and disheartened by these gullible fools that support the Republicans one year after the worst President in modern history took office. He call himself a Genius, no one else does that I know of. Yes Sir, blame it on unions, not the wealthy or the system. Damned sickening to me.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8127
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:52 am

salttee wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
salttee wrote:
LOL nah, it’s called history

LOL no, those are just things that rattle around in your head.


Stuff like this. . .

https://www.aar.org/BackgroundPapers/Am ... lation.pdf

. . . is perhaps something that should be in your head.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8127
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:00 am

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
you made a post that criticized a position I didn't take nor was I trying to make in the post. The point I was trying to make is that if you look at most projects undertaken in the private sector, because most of these projects have much better oversight than public projects, they can do things more efficiently and less costly than projects in the public sector.
I'm not so sure that private sector projects have much better oversight than public projects (I know of one case where a private company built a nuclear plant off of mirrorwise drawings, and didn't find out until the pipes didn't line up) public sector screwups are front page news whereas private sector blunders are covered up lest the shareholders find out. There may be some validity to the criticism, but I believe it has been way overblown, and now in the era where the concept of anarchy has gained such a popular foothold, it is off the charts.

I made my post in the assumption that you were hand in hand with DIRECTFLT, I was offended by the comparison between the turn of the 19th century reality vs turn of the twentieth century circumstance which is invalid in so many ways. But the thing that really got my goat was the sentiment behind "It is pretty sad what it takes to get things done anymore", as if we are living in a hell on Earth here in the 21st century. This strikes me as MAGA talk, I don't know if you are a Trumpster or not, but that's the way it sounds. On both a material and a social sense we are far far better off than we were in 1800, 1900 or 1950. The constant attacks on, and flogging of, the government which is currently so popular is utterly off base IMO.
apodino wrote:
As great a project as the interstate highway was, sadly it did hurt the railroads in the long run, and I think at the time rail was viewed as a thing of the past. I think if politicians of that era could see what we have now, they would have worked harder to save a lot of the railroads, and I think the infrastructure would be much better.
While there is truth in what you say, you are ignoring the social, political and economic realities of the times (early 1950s).

In 1954, WW2 had only been over for nine years, Europe was a shambles, Germany was still an occupied country and the people's memory before the war went back to the depression era, which many people saw as the norm for life on planet earth. Nobody could have known that the country was on the edge of a population explosion and economic boom as what occurred. How could anyone have seen the future need for mass transportation in that era? Most people were afraid that we would slip back to life as it was in the thirties.

Throwing rocks at "government" meddling or whatever is a very myopic stance in this case. I feel obligated to push back at such shortsightedness.


That's an excuse on your part. You refuse to see the obvious when it doesn't fit your narrative.

Government subsidies, economic regulations and senseless labor laws destroyed the American passenger railway system. That's a fact. The freight railroad barely managed until the 1970s and deregulation finally enabled it to turn around.

I'm not saying that any regulation is going to sink the industry, but there was a TON of extremely bad regulation in the books. It's not some safety regulation or simple labor law that's going to sink an industry. Those days were nothing like the regulations that are in the books today.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
salttee
Posts: 2480
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:43 am

It's not a simplistic as you present. It is true that by the 1970s the regulatory framework of the railroads had become obsolete and after the monopolies had been broken, much of the earlier regulation was unnecessary, but those regulations had been very necessary when they were written. Probably the main reason it took so long to get regulatory adjustment was the simple fact that the operators of the railroads had consistently (unfailingly) proven themselves to be morally bankrupt SOBs for the prior 100 years. I think Congress did a good job of squeezing the bastards in mid century, but that's just my opinion. It is unsurprising that their pleas for help fell on unsympathetic ears re: The little boy who cried wolf.

In any event, regulatory burden wasn't the only reason the railroads business model failed in the 70s, regulatory burden wasn't even the main reason they went bankrupt. Mismanagement had no small part in their problems, mismanagement from the lowliest employee in the switchyard to the boardroom. Railroad management post WW2 was the perfect storm, there is good reason why General Marshall had the railroads nationalized during the war. Fossilized brains don't make good decisions.

Then there was the advent of the diesel semi trailer, with good roads; for the first time the railroads had real competition, and of course the railroads fell on their face against that. The trucking industry was innovative, the railroads just pined for yesteryear. I remember that era, boxcars (with their cargo) got lost for months, they got lost for weeks regularly. And the railroads parked their consists in darkened sidings and switchyards for days on end, inviting cargo theft. Shipping anything other than a load of coal was like rolling the dice, insurance rates went sky high. And on top of all that, in most cases, cargo had to be shipped by truck on both ends anyway.

Now let's talk about what has changed since the 1980 staggers act. Containerization has swept through the shipping industry, which fits hand in hand with rail transit. Computerization has made route planning and cargo tracking possible in ways that were sorely needed in earlier days. Now the freight companies have Amtrak subsidizing their rail maintenance, and demanding higher standards than the freight operators would have held before. And of course the taxpayer is subsidizing Amtrak. Due to nationwide economic expansion the total volume of goods shipped is way up and as a result the railroads can concentrate on hauling cargo that is suited for rail: no more live chickens or other small shipments.

And none of this has anything to do with the anti-auto crowd who think that General Motors is the reason they don't have good commuter rail options to the suburb in which they live.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8127
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:57 pm

salttee wrote:
It's not a simplistic as you present. It is true that by the 1970s the regulatory framework of the railroads had become obsolete and after the monopolies had been broken, much of the earlier regulation was unnecessary, but those regulations had been very necessary when they were written. Probably the main reason it took so long to get regulatory adjustment was the simple fact that the operators of the railroads had consistently (unfailingly) proven themselves to be morally bankrupt SOBs for the prior 100 years. I think Congress did a good job of squeezing the bastards in mid century, but that's just my opinion. It is unsurprising that their pleas for help fell on unsympathetic ears re: The little boy who cried wolf.

In any event, regulatory burden wasn't the only reason the railroads business model failed in the 70s, regulatory burden wasn't even the main reason they went bankrupt. Mismanagement had no small part in their problems, mismanagement from the lowliest employee in the switchyard to the boardroom. Railroad management post WW2 was the perfect storm, there is good reason why General Marshall had the railroads nationalized during the war. Fossilized brains don't make good decisions.

Then there was the advent of the diesel semi trailer, with good roads; for the first time the railroads had real competition, and of course the railroads fell on their face against that. The trucking industry was innovative, the railroads just pined for yesteryear. I remember that era, boxcars (with their cargo) got lost for months, they got lost for weeks regularly. And the railroads parked their consists in darkened sidings and switchyards for days on end, inviting cargo theft. Shipping anything other than a load of coal was like rolling the dice, insurance rates went sky high. And on top of all that, in most cases, cargo had to be shipped by truck on both ends anyway.

Now let's talk about what has changed since the 1980 staggers act. Containerization has swept through the shipping industry, which fits hand in hand with rail transit. Computerization has made route planning and cargo tracking possible in ways that were sorely needed in earlier days. Now the freight companies have Amtrak subsidizing their rail maintenance, and demanding higher standards than the freight operators would have held before. And of course the taxpayer is subsidizing Amtrak. Due to nationwide economic expansion the total volume of goods shipped is way up and as a result the railroads can concentrate on hauling cargo that is suited for rail: no more live chickens or other small shipments.

And none of this has anything to do with the anti-auto crowd who think that General Motors is the reason they don't have good commuter rail options to the suburb in which they live.


1. Those regulations were totally unnecessary when they were written. Not to mention, the regulatory framework was a constantly changing clusterf* that the government could never settle on.

2. The trucking industry was NOT innovative. They were HIGHLY subsidized indirectly through the Interstate Highways System and not subject to many of the regulations railroads were that stifled their ability to fund innovation.

3. Containerization fits just as well with trucking.

4. Amtrak is pathetic. It's a TINY network compared to what the US passenger rail industry used to be. The freight rail industry has by far a much bigger network.

5. The Staggers Act nearly single-handedly saved and turned the US Freight Railroad around from the brink of destruction. Not only that, it made the US freight rail industry one of the only truly successful freight rail industries in this planet--profitable, and self-suntainable by giving it the means of investing in its own future.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
salttee
Posts: 2480
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:29 am

Obviously, we could go on ad infinitum, but the last two posts summarize it well.
You've said your piece and I've said mine.


Have a nice day!
(unless you have other plans)
 
Redd
Posts: 665
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:10 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Redd wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:

I have one question, is any of the project using union labor?





70% of the entire working population in Sweden belongs to a working union. All construction workers do, as pretty much all other manual laborers, they don't f*ck around with workers rights and wages.



We have a bunch of Wimps in the US now, no balls to be more exact. They love to be screwed by the wealthy. They love it so much, they elected a Moron for President because he promised more jobs. The trade deficit is through the roof again, but they love him, he lives in a gilded mansion, but they love him, he plays golf, but they love him, he has done more damage to the middleclass on taxes and healthcare, but they love him. One can only come to one conclusion, his supporters are not to bright. I admire the Swedish People, I admire their system, and I wish I could say that about the US. I fought the union fight all my life, and I am sick and disheartened by these gullible fools that support the Republicans one year after the worst President in modern history took office. He call himself a Genius, no one else does that I know of. Yes Sir, blame it on unions, not the wealthy or the system. Damned sickening to me.



I find it quite ironic that the same people who are so anti-union have nothing against the American lobby. Unions which are there to protect workers rights and ensure safe working conditions and living wages are considered bad, but big lobby which are there to ensure big profits disregarding the health and well-being of the American people are considered ok.

I understand that American unions have had some bad history with corruption, strong-arming, corruption and mafia involvement, but there are ways to prevent those things with regulations, laws and enforcement. Unions manage to coexist with corporations in other parts of the world just fine, why is it such an issue in the USA?
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 11896
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:58 pm

Redd wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Redd wrote:




70% of the entire working population in Sweden belongs to a working union. All construction workers do, as pretty much all other manual laborers, they don't f*ck around with workers rights and wages.



We have a bunch of Wimps in the US now, no balls to be more exact. They love to be screwed by the wealthy. They love it so much, they elected a Moron for President because he promised more jobs. The trade deficit is through the roof again, but they love him, he lives in a gilded mansion, but they love him, he plays golf, but they love him, he has done more damage to the middleclass on taxes and healthcare, but they love him. One can only come to one conclusion, his supporters are not to bright. I admire the Swedish People, I admire their system, and I wish I could say that about the US. I fought the union fight all my life, and I am sick and disheartened by these gullible fools that support the Republicans one year after the worst President in modern history took office. He call himself a Genius, no one else does that I know of. Yes Sir, blame it on unions, not the wealthy or the system. Damned sickening to me.



I find it quite ironic that the same people who are so anti-union have nothing against the American lobby. Unions which are there to protect workers rights and ensure safe working conditions and living wages are considered bad, but big lobby which are there to ensure big profits disregarding the health and well-being of the American people are considered ok.

I understand that American unions have had some bad history with corruption, strong-arming, corruption and mafia involvement, but there are ways to prevent those things with regulations, laws and enforcement. Unions manage to coexist with corporations in other parts of the world just fine, why is it such an issue in the USA?



It is beyond me, we see the attitude on here, we see the attitude down in our Southern Regions, our Western Regions , mostly regional on a national scale. The anti-union crowd fancies themselves as Capitalists, part of the big picture, which we know is a laugh. They tend to be bootlickers, ass kissers. They seek the low level managment positions and then they are part of the corporate crowd. I have worked with tons of them in my career, ninety nine percent stay bootlickers and go nowhere. Another one is the corruption accusers for unions. Hilarious, we have the most corrupted government ever these days, but they love them these anti- union people.

Native born, yet I cannot understand my own fellow citizen on these topics. Our deep Southern regions would sell us all to get jobs that pay less than labor friendly areas. They love it, they enbrace the screwing they are getting from our Corporate Masters who are enabled by our very own government. I am sure you realize the corporations from elsewhere, including Europe headed for the Non-union US. areas to take advantage of the desperate and poverty stricken labor there.

They anti-union people appear to think they have principles and fail to realize the corporations have none, along with congress. I do think the poverty of the old days in our non- manufacturing regions is so ingrained that they have forgotten pride and standing up like men and will do anything to get jobs to compete with the old enemy from the North which was a defender of human rights agaist those who were and still are not so much. The worker of today is cowed and beaten down by their own government which allowed our manufacturing Supremacy to be destroyed and allowed the enrichment of our sworn enemy China for wealth for the already wealthy for money and power, and these fool's support those who did this, the Corporation's. There is a famous movie line, I quote, If I only had a brain. ( Wizard of Oz) More people should use theirs,
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
apodino
Posts: 3297
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:56 pm

Redd wrote:
I find it quite ironic that the same people who are so anti-union have nothing against the American lobby. Unions which are there to protect workers rights and ensure safe working conditions and living wages are considered bad, but big lobby which are there to ensure big profits disregarding the health and well-being of the American people are considered ok.

I understand that American unions have had some bad history with corruption, strong-arming, corruption and mafia involvement, but there are ways to prevent those things with regulations, laws and enforcement. Unions manage to coexist with corporations in other parts of the world just fine, why is it such an issue in the USA?

I will preface this by saying I am a dues paying union member, and even though my job is not subject to right to work provisions, if it were I would still choose to pay union dues. That being said, what you say about the purpose of unions sounds good. However, seeing it from the other side of things as a union member, there is a perception out there that the unions have stopped actually doing these things. What they do instead is take dues money, and instead of protecting their members, they use the dues money to line the pockets of union leadership, and the rest of it to buy off politicians with campaign donations. While some unions don't donate politically (our bylaws prohibit dues money being used for that purpose), a lot of other ones donate money politically (largely to democrats). In other cases, the union does all this while actually being in bed with the company their membership is needing representation for. In aviation for example, when GoJet was founded the parent company Trans States immediately saw to it that the Teamsters union would represent the pilots of the new airline. They did this so that senior pilots at Trans States airlines, an ALPA carrier, could not fly these bigger jets and the Teamsters union saw the union dues and screwed over a bunch of other pilots. In another example historically, Union Leadership at major airlines has lined pockets of senior pilots by allowing smaller jet flying to be outsourced, which led to the senior members getting rich and the junior members getting furloughed. I will leave you with this quote from an AA mechanic about his own union.
"Don't think for a second if they (American Airlines) feel their pet UNION is in danger they won't give a bit so the UNION can claim a win only to come back later and take more.

Personally I think if you do a comparative analysis of your total compensation you come out ahead of those that do "like" work (that being mechanical maintenance and repair). That being said how much buying power has the American citizen lost over the decades? Even if you "win" your not really winning, you are just losing slower.

Make no mistake your UNION does not exist to represent you, they exist to control you and fund the Democratic Party. Democrats have turned the collective bargaining process into a never ending money laundering scam. I have been saying that for years.

I think many of you are starting to see that.... or at least finally ready to admit it."


WarRI1 wrote:
It is beyond me, we see the attitude on here, we see the attitude down in our Southern Regions, our Western Regions , mostly regional on a national scale. The anti-union crowd fancies themselves as Capitalists, part of the big picture, which we know is a laugh. They tend to be bootlickers, ass kissers. They seek the low level managment positions and then they are part of the corporate crowd. I have worked with tons of them in my career, ninety nine percent stay bootlickers and go nowhere. Another one is the corruption accusers for unions. Hilarious, we have the most corrupted government ever these days, but they love them these anti- union people.

Native born, yet I cannot understand my own fellow citizen on these topics. Our deep Southern regions would sell us all to get jobs that pay less than labor friendly areas. They love it, they enbrace the screwing they are getting from our Corporate Masters who are enabled by our very own government. I am sure you realize the corporations from elsewhere, including Europe headed for the Non-union US. areas to take advantage of the desperate and poverty stricken labor there.

They anti-union people appear to think they have principles and fail to realize the corporations have none, along with congress. I do think the poverty of the old days in our non- manufacturing regions is so ingrained that they have forgotten pride and standing up like men and will do anything to get jobs to compete with the old enemy from the North which was a defender of human rights agaist those who were and still are not so much. The worker of today is cowed and beaten down by their own government which allowed our manufacturing Supremacy to be destroyed and allowed the enrichment of our sworn enemy China for wealth for the already wealthy for money and power, and these fool's support those who did this, the Corporation's. There is a famous movie line, I quote, If I only had a brain. ( Wizard of Oz) More people should use theirs,

War I agree with you that a lot of corporations don't have principles. That has been proven over time. But this is the way I see it. Big corporations know that more regulation is good for their bottom line and bad for the little guy. Why do I say that? Because when you have more and more regulations and red tape to deal with, you need more and more resources to do so. Resources that only big corporations have. Not ones that the little guy has. Which is why I am a staunch supporter of small business. Because only by supporting small business as much as possible and less and less of big corporate America, can you get these companies to start to behave. (If at all. I think corporate America is run by Ferengi these days)

Which brings me to my second point. Corporate America knows that if they act up, liberal politicians will immediately cry foul and will want regulations to stop it. Corporate America is counting on this, for the reasons I mentioned. It is no accident that a Wealthy, one percent Wall Street executive was just elected Governor of New Jersey. And meanwhile they keep doing the same thing over and over, and yet places where this mentality runs wild, such as the Northeast and the West Coast, while being very wealthy on the surface, actually deal with tons of poverty and a middle class that increasingly cannot afford to live in these areas. It is no secret how expensive San Francisco is. Portland is dealing with a huge homeless problem. And some businesses are fleeing Seattle because of problems that tent cities nearby have caused them.

But the republicans at the same time are not blameless either. There are many regulations in place that are necessary so that we have things like clean water, less climate change, better working conditions for all, and also consumer protections. Going too far the other way will lead to anarchy and little oversight which is needed. Lack of oversight led to Bear Stearns, Enron, and Lehman Brothers collapses hurting thousands of workers and shareholders. It also gave us Bernie Madoff, and Charles Keating among others.

We need a balance. Both sides have extreme positions that dont help the little guy at all, but sure help corporations. Voters actually saw it last election. The problem is, their solution was Trump.

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