ElPistolero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:24 pm

seahawk wrote:
But if the local people never work against corruption the country will not get rid of it.


What evidence do you have that local people in corrupt countries "never work against corruption"?

Many people fight against corruption in their homelands. Despite the fact that it reduces their life expectancy considerably. Like the anti-corruption Maltese reporter, who was killed in a car bomb. Power and corruption go hand in hand. Not an easy combination to beat.

What's your opinion? Do you really believe they do nothing? If so, why do you think that's the case?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:43 pm

The man is a fool, unfortunatley for the US he is a fool in power.
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787Driver
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:07 pm

apodino wrote:

As for the context of the comment, the way he describes countries like Haiti is exactly the reason these guys come to the US. Conditions in these countries are awful, and good people in these countries want out and a better life for themselves. I thought this is what the American Dream is all about. So to reduce immigration from these countries who's people are desperate, and instead increase it from countries that are prosperous, such as Norway, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do I think its racist? Not necessarily, because there are poor countries that have mostly white people, and wealthy prosperous countries that are mostly hispanic, or black. I do believe given the presidents standing, this comment opens himself up to that charge, even though I still do not believe he is a racist.


True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone. Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:16 pm

787Driver wrote:
apodino wrote:

As for the context of the comment, the way he describes countries like Haiti is exactly the reason these guys come to the US. Conditions in these countries are awful, and good people in these countries want out and a better life for themselves. I thought this is what the American Dream is all about. So to reduce immigration from these countries who's people are desperate, and instead increase it from countries that are prosperous, such as Norway, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do I think its racist? Not necessarily, because there are poor countries that have mostly white people, and wealthy prosperous countries that are mostly hispanic, or black. I do believe given the presidents standing, this comment opens himself up to that charge, even though I still do not believe he is a racist.


True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone. Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on.


Both of you missed the point. This whole discussion was due to folks wanting to leave those conditions, and his statement was "Why do we let people in from "SHITHOLE" countries. He did not seperate the people from the country. He could care less. Trump is a stereotyping racist.
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ElPistolero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:44 pm

787Driver wrote:

True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone. Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on.


Ok, lets be real.

The issue here isn't that some countries are difficult to live in. The issue here is that individuals from those countries have been deemed unworthy regardless of their individual capabilities or characteristics. They are being judged on the basis of their country of origin, not their abilities.

Taken at face value, the words used suggest that a Norwegian delinquent is a superior candidate for US citizenship than a hardworking Haitian professional. That's an interesting view of the world. Do you agree with it?

That aside, who would want to live in Nigeria? A lot of high-skilled folk apparently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... hours.html
 
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787Driver
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:54 pm

casinterest wrote:
787Driver wrote:
apodino wrote:

As for the context of the comment, the way he describes countries like Haiti is exactly the reason these guys come to the US. Conditions in these countries are awful, and good people in these countries want out and a better life for themselves. I thought this is what the American Dream is all about. So to reduce immigration from these countries who's people are desperate, and instead increase it from countries that are prosperous, such as Norway, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do I think its racist? Not necessarily, because there are poor countries that have mostly white people, and wealthy prosperous countries that are mostly hispanic, or black. I do believe given the presidents standing, this comment opens himself up to that charge, even though I still do not believe he is a racist.


True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone. Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on.


Both of you missed the point. This whole discussion was due to folks wanting to leave those conditions, and his statement was "Why do we let people in from "SHITHOLE" countries. He did not seperate the people from the country. He could care less. Trump is a stereotyping racist.


Maybe we missed the point, but that's not how it was portrayed in the media where the emphasis was all on the "shithole countries" remark.
 
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787Driver
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:55 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
787Driver wrote:

True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone. Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on.


Ok, lets be real.

The issue here isn't that some countries are difficult to live in. The issue here is that individuals from those countries have been deemed unworthy regardless of their individual capabilities or characteristics. They are being judged on the basis of their country of origin, not their abilities.

Taken at face value, the words used suggest that a Norwegian delinquent is a superior candidate for US citizenship than a hardworking Haitian professional. That's an interesting view of the world. Do you agree with it?

That aside, who would want to live in Nigeria? A lot of high-skilled folk apparently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... hours.html


Money talks.. because that would be the only thing talking to those expats there.. would you agree?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:59 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But if the local people never work against corruption the country will not get rid of it.


What evidence do you have that local people in corrupt countries "never work against corruption"?

Many people fight against corruption in their homelands. Despite the fact that it reduces their life expectancy considerably. Like the anti-corruption Maltese reporter, who was killed in a car bomb. Power and corruption go hand in hand. Not an easy combination to beat.

What's your opinion? Do you really believe they do nothing? If so, why do you think that's the case?


If they do nothing they are often lacking the means, the question is why does the West help corrupt governments to stay in place. But in the end Trump was just spreading his racism and not really thinking about improving the effects of development aid. In the end it is typical of racist propaganda, you take a small piece of truth and mix it into your argument. Calling those countries shit holes is one think, judging the people of those countries in that way is unacceptable.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:06 pm

787Driver wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
787Driver wrote:

True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone. Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on.


Ok, lets be real.

The issue here isn't that some countries are difficult to live in. The issue here is that individuals from those countries have been deemed unworthy regardless of their individual capabilities or characteristics. They are being judged on the basis of their country of origin, not their abilities.

Taken at face value, the words used suggest that a Norwegian delinquent is a superior candidate for US citizenship than a hardworking Haitian professional. That's an interesting view of the world. Do you agree with it?

That aside, who would want to live in Nigeria? A lot of high-skilled folk apparently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... hours.html


Money talks.. because that would be the only thing talking to those expats there.. would you agree?


Sure. And other things.

- "More than half of the InterNations survey respondents in Nigeria, Ghana, Senegal and Kenya rated their working hours and work-life balance positively."

- "Expatriates in the West African country Senegal are happiest with their local career prospects and have high job satisfaction. A significant 78 per cent of expatriates there rated their career prospects positively, compared with 58 per cent of expats worldwide who feel the same."

- "Job satisfaction in Senegal is also impressive, with 69 per cent responding positively. Nigeria follows in the third spot, with 74 per cent stating that they are satisfied with their job and 64 per cent rating their career prospects positively."

- "Clementine Wallop, a writer and consultant who lives in the Nigerian capital, Abuja, with her journalist husband, said: “Having a stint in Nigeria on your CV is a huge benefit. Living and working in Nigeria exposes you to opportunities and challenges you couldn't dream of having in a city like London or New York. Life here is never dull and no two days are the same. This variety was one of our main motivations for moving from Singapore, where we lived previously"

It's easy to dismiss countries as (unliveable), but keep in mind that a lot of people live there and have no intention of leaving. Many former (insert descriptors) are now becoming economic powerhouses. Would anyone want to live in China in the 1970s? Or Singapore in the 1960s?
 
apodino
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:31 pm

casinterest wrote:
787Driver wrote:
apodino wrote:

As for the context of the comment, the way he describes countries like Haiti is exactly the reason these guys come to the US. Conditions in these countries are awful, and good people in these countries want out and a better life for themselves. I thought this is what the American Dream is all about. So to reduce immigration from these countries who's people are desperate, and instead increase it from countries that are prosperous, such as Norway, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do I think its racist? Not necessarily, because there are poor countries that have mostly white people, and wealthy prosperous countries that are mostly hispanic, or black. I do believe given the presidents standing, this comment opens himself up to that charge, even though I still do not believe he is a racist.


True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone. Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on.


Both of you missed the point. This whole discussion was due to folks wanting to leave those conditions, and his statement was "Why do we let people in from "SHITHOLE" countries. He did not seperate the people from the country. He could care less. Trump is a stereotyping racist.


I didn't miss the point. If you read my post I explained exactly why these people want to leave those countries and exactly why would should let them in. To only allow people in from prospering nations turns the planet into a caste system, which I doubt anyone wants.

This issue is near and dear to my heart because I know so many people from these types of backgrounds. The American dream is all about being able to prosper even if you come from nothing. Trumps remarks spit in the face of it, and so does his attitude.
 
NoTime
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:37 pm

As usual, Trump is correct... just not quite Presidential in his delivery.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:59 pm

NoTime wrote:
As usual, Trump is correct... just not quite Presidential in his delivery.

He's correct if every person from Haiti is not a suitable immigrant and every person from Norway is.

Guess what: HE'S WRONG!
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casinterest
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:04 pm

apodino wrote:
casinterest wrote:
787Driver wrote:

True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone. Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on.


Both of you missed the point. This whole discussion was due to folks wanting to leave those conditions, and his statement was "Why do we let people in from "SHITHOLE" countries. He did not seperate the people from the country. He could care less. Trump is a stereotyping racist.


I didn't miss the point. If you read my post I explained exactly why these people want to leave those countries and exactly why would should let them in. To only allow people in from prospering nations turns the planet into a caste system, which I doubt anyone wants.

This issue is near and dear to my heart because I know so many people from these types of backgrounds. The American dream is all about being able to prosper even if you come from nothing. Trumps remarks spit in the face of it, and so does his attitude.


My apologies for including you. Was referring to the rhetoric spouted by those that pass off the "shithole countries" as acceptable.
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NoTime
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
NoTime wrote:
As usual, Trump is correct... just not quite Presidential in his delivery.

He's correct if every person from Haiti is not a suitable immigrant and every person from Norway is.

Guess what: HE'S WRONG!


He (apparently) didn't say that every person from Haiti is not suitable. Nor did he (apparently) say that everyone from Norway is.

He rightly pointed out, in his usual inarticulate way, that the US should work to improve the quality of the immigrants that we let in.
 
afcjets
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:20 pm

Perhaps once again the media falls into his trap?

https://thehornnews.com/flashback-obama ... -sht-show/
 
NoTime
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:21 pm

afcjets wrote:
Perhaps once again the media falls into his trap?

https://thehornnews.com/flashback-obama ... -sht-show/


Ha! Here's the actual piece from the Atlantic. (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ne/471525/)

“So we actually executed this plan as well as I could have expected: We got a UN mandate, we built a coalition, it cost us $1 billion—which, when it comes to military operations, is very cheap. We averted large-scale civilian casualties, we prevented what almost surely would have been a prolonged and bloody civil conflict. And despite all that, Libya is a mess.”

Mess is the president’s diplomatic term; privately, he calls Libya a “shit show,” in part because it’s subsequently become an isis haven—one that he has already targeted with air strikes. It became a shit show, Obama believes, for reasons that had less to do with American incompetence than with the passivity of America’s allies and with the obdurate power of tribalism.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:57 pm

NoTime wrote:

He (apparently) didn't say that every person from Haiti is not suitable. Nor did he (apparently) say that everyone from Norway is.

He rightly pointed out, in his usual inarticulate way, that the US should work to improve the quality of the immigrants that we let in.


One can articulate that by expressing a preference for high-skilled immigrants instead of low skilled ones, and leaving it at that.

But that's not what happened. Instead individuals from one nation (Norway) were deemed more worthy of US residency/citizenship than individuals from a less stable country, with no reference to their individual abilities or skills. Unsurprisingly, it's irked more than Democrats. The African Union isn't happy, and I feel a bit sympathetic towards the US Ambassador to Botswana, who was asked point blank if the US considers Botswana to be a(...). Meanwhile in Beijing...

FWIW, this is not the same as calling a country a mess. There is a difference between calling a country a mess, and declaring that individuals coming from that country are not worthy of US residency/citizenship, regardless of their individual skills and abilities, because their country of origin is a mess.

Granted, this might be too complex and nuanced an issue for some to understand.
 
NoTime
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:11 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
NoTime wrote:

He (apparently) didn't say that every person from Haiti is not suitable. Nor did he (apparently) say that everyone from Norway is.

He rightly pointed out, in his usual inarticulate way, that the US should work to improve the quality of the immigrants that we let in.


One can articulate that by expressing a preference for high-skilled immigrants instead of low skilled ones, and leaving it at that.

But that's not what happened. Instead individuals from one nation (Norway) were deemed more worthy of US residency/citizenship than individuals from a less stable country, with no reference to their individual abilities or skills.


Yes, but we're dealing with Trump. If you're expecting nuance from him, you're probably in for a long few years. His point is pretty obvious, though. Take the average immigrant from Norway and compare him/her to the average immigrant from Haiti (or whatever "s--thole" country you want to use). Which is more skilled? Which is less likely to require assistance in the form of welfare or other programs?

In Trump's "stable genius" mind, he's likely just skipping directly to the point - immigrants from non-sh--hole nations are, by and large, more desirable than immigrants from sh--hole nations.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:36 pm

There is a difference between calling a country a mess, and declaring that individuals coming from that country are not worthy of US residency/citizenship, regardless of their individual skills and abilities, because their country of origin is a mess.


Ever noticed that visa (non)requirements work on the very principle you have just described? All over the world.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:38 pm

NoTime wrote:
He rightly pointed out, in his usual inarticulate way, that the US should work to improve the quality of the immigrants that we let in.

How do you get from "Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?" to "We should work to improve the quality of the immigrants that we let in"?

He didn't address the quality of the immigrants, he only addressed the country of origin of the immigrants.

Apparently there is no limit to the amount of slack that Trump supporters will give him.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:43 pm

NoTime wrote:
Take the average immigrant from Norway and compare him/her to the average immigrant from Haiti (or whatever "s--thole" country you want to use). Which is more skilled? Which is less likely to require assistance in the form of welfare or other programs?

Personally, I'd rather take the average world citizen and compare them to the average Trump voter / FAUX NEWS viewer, and finding the world citizens superior, would gladly import all of them and export all the Trumpistas.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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wingman
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:55 pm

It's sad that we can't expect nuance, or really any other attribute that should be the hallmark of a President communicating in an open or on the record meeting. The bar is so low only the massively ignorant and woefully uneducated amongst us thinks this kind of language is "cool, spoken like a real man, a pussy grabber and supporter of sexual assaulters and white supremacist racist assholes like me". It's not any of those things, it's just plain old incomprehension in the face of a job so far beyond his abilities that he can't bring himself to understand the impact of his own stupidity.

Despite what one particularly idiotic member said below, immigrants work hard as hell and do a lot of jobs most white Americans wouldn't do in a million years (e.g. roofing in the summertime in Phoenix or picking strawberries in California). You want highly skilled immigration, or at least a shot at retaining the highly educated immigrant that just wrapped up at MIT? Fixed the damn H1B lottery system.

What Trump said in this meeting does absolutely nothing positive, it only insults and worse, drives foreign leaders and countries further into China's embrace. Everyone's free to think what they want, but saying it in public is reprehensible even for white Mississippi trash. Saying it as the President is repugnant. But I'm not embarrassed anymore. I think the world understands that Trump is a racist asshole and only represents the 30% of ignorant American racist assholes that still support him. The rest of us just have to wait for the midterms.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:27 pm

casinterest wrote:
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/368686-durbin-fires-back-at-trump-denial-he-said-those-hateful-things-and-he-said?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark


"“You’ve seen the comments in the press,” Durbin said. “I’ve not seen one of them that’s inaccurate. To no surprise, the president started tweeting this morning, denying that he used those words. It is not true. He said these hate-filled things, and he said them repeatedly.”"



Dan Durbin has stated that Lindsey Graham called out the president in the meeting. So Trump is apparently lying again this morning in his denials.


Dick Durbin, Yes he is lying because it's apparent he did say these things and more than once. Mia Love is livid and asking for an apology which would be a good idea but something tells me we won't get it.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:38 pm

wingman wrote:
It's sad that we can't expect nuance, or really any other attribute that should be the hallmark of a President communicating in an open or on the record meeting. The bar is so low only the massively ignorant and woefully uneducated amongst us thinks this kind of language is "cool, spoken like a real man, a pussy grabber and supporter of sexual assaulters and white supremacist racist assholes like me". It's not any of those things, it's just plain old incomprehension in the face of a job so far beyond his abilities that he can't bring himself to understand the impact of his own stupidity.

It's a surrealistic flashback to the 70s when Norman Lear made Archie Bunker such an ignorant sexist and racist that he thought everyone would understand it was parody, but then he discovered countless people saw the world the same way Archie Bunker did.

Now, we have Archie Bunker as President, and his big red button works.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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ElPistolero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:43 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:

Ever noticed that visa (non)requirements work on the very principle you have just described? All over the world.


Presumably Americans require Indian/Chinese/Brazilian visas because the US is a mess?

Besides, visa processes vet individuals as individuals. They don't work on the principle that every applicant from the country should be kept out. When visas are denied, they are usually denied for a reason (financial means etc) that isn't simply "you're from X country".
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:44 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/368686-durbin-fires-back-at-trump-denial-he-said-those-hateful-things-and-he-said?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark


"“You’ve seen the comments in the press,” Durbin said. “I’ve not seen one of them that’s inaccurate. To no surprise, the president started tweeting this morning, denying that he used those words. It is not true. He said these hate-filled things, and he said them repeatedly.”"



Dan Durbin has stated that Lindsey Graham called out the president in the meeting. So Trump is apparently lying again this morning in his denials.


Dick Durbin, Yes he is lying because it's apparent he did say these things and more than once. Mia Love is livid and asking for an apology which would be a good idea but something tells me we won't get it.


So is the African Union.

Not holding my breath either.
 
NoTime
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:14 am

Revelation wrote:
NoTime wrote:
Take the average immigrant from Norway and compare him/her to the average immigrant from Haiti (or whatever "s--thole" country you want to use). Which is more skilled? Which is less likely to require assistance in the form of welfare or other programs?

Personally, I'd rather take the average world citizen and compare them to the average Trump voter / FAUX NEWS viewer, and finding the world citizens superior, would gladly import all of them and export all the Trumpistas.


OK, so then you understand where Trump is coming from. The two of you have differing opinions of who should be let in (or, in your case, expelled), but you both feel the same about including/excluding certain people. So, in the end, you're very similar.
 
jetero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:30 am

NoTime wrote:
Revelation wrote:
NoTime wrote:
Take the average immigrant from Norway and compare him/her to the average immigrant from Haiti (or whatever "s--thole" country you want to use). Which is more skilled? Which is less likely to require assistance in the form of welfare or other programs?

Personally, I'd rather take the average world citizen and compare them to the average Trump voter / FAUX NEWS viewer, and finding the world citizens superior, would gladly import all of them and export all the Trumpistas.


OK, so then you understand where Trump is coming from. The two of you have differing opinions of who should be let in (or, in your case, expelled), but you both feel the same about including/excluding certain people. So, in the end, you're very similar.


He’s not “coming from” anywhere, NoTime other than Queens—he’s definitely not coming from a principled policy position. The faults of a “misunderstood” person who is capable of critical and intelligent thought cannot he explained away as being the fault of his being “inarticulate” as you are telegraphing. (I don’t even think you believe it.) Bush II is the obvious corollary.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:09 am

NoTime wrote:
OK, so then you understand where Trump is coming from. The two of you have differing opinions of who should be let in (or, in your case, expelled), but you both feel the same about including/excluding certain people. So, in the end, you're very similar.

Says you. Besides, in the end, what I think doesn't matter, the red button on my desk does nothing, and I'm not picking supreme court justices who will be around for decades to come.

What is interesting is the political party that thrives on sticking spokes into the government's wheels is advocating a means test for immigration. Should we call this the immigration "death panel" just like they called Obamacare?
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:13 am

jetero wrote:
NoTime wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Personally, I'd rather take the average world citizen and compare them to the average Trump voter / FAUX NEWS viewer, and finding the world citizens superior, would gladly import all of them and export all the Trumpistas.


OK, so then you understand where Trump is coming from. The two of you have differing opinions of who should be let in (or, in your case, expelled), but you both feel the same about including/excluding certain people. So, in the end, you're very similar.


He’s not “coming from” anywhere, NoTime other than Queens—he’s definitely not coming from a principled policy position.


Sure he is, the policy is - we should be prioritizing immigrants who can actively contribute to society, vs. those that in most cases (thought not all) are going to be burdens to an already taxed welfare system. In fact, in the case of the latter, we should be slowing the rate of immigration into our country.

jetero wrote:
The faults of a “misunderstood” person who is capable of critical and intelligent thought cannot he explained away as being the fault of his being “inarticulate” as you are telegraphing. (I don’t even think you believe it.) Bush II is the obvious corollary.


Yes they can. Trump is a horse's ass, and used to being able to say whatever he wants (and being praised for it in many cases). He's a relatively smart guy, he's just not articulate... at all. I'm sure you've met people in your life who were smart enough, but just not particularly articulate or well spoken.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:29 am

NoTime wrote:
jetero wrote:
NoTime wrote:

OK, so then you understand where Trump is coming from. The two of you have differing opinions of who should be let in (or, in your case, expelled), but you both feel the same about including/excluding certain people. So, in the end, you're very similar.


He’s not “coming from” anywhere, NoTime other than Queens—he’s definitely not coming from a principled policy position.


Sure he is, the policy is - we should be prioritizing immigrants who can actively contribute to society, vs. those that in most cases (thought not all) are going to be burdens to an already taxed welfare system. In fact, in the case of the latter, we should be slowing the rate of immigration into our country.

jetero wrote:
The faults of a “misunderstood” person who is capable of critical and intelligent thought cannot he explained away as being the fault of his being “inarticulate” as you are telegraphing. (I don’t even think you believe it.) Bush II is the obvious corollary.


Yes they can. Trump is a horse's ass, and used to being able to say whatever he wants (and being praised for it in many cases). He's a relatively smart guy, he's just not articulate... at all. I'm sure you've met people in your life who were smart enough, but just not particularly articulate or well spoken.


NoTime, I do appreciate your response. As a person who has been called “relatively smart” while also being calls a “horse’s a*s,” I understand that narrative (it’s “believable” enough).

However, I don’t think he has a policy bone in his body. What you say re merit-based immigration (speaking from a position of privilege as a former American immigrant to Canada) is not something that’s necessarily in debate. However, I don’t think the President has ever stated coherently that that is his policy, nor, at the end of the day, do I think he cares.

Do you really believe he has coherent and consistent policy positions? Or is it more symbolic for you (I.e. he’s speaking for the “forgotten man” and doesn’t need to be concerned with the details)?
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 am

jetero wrote:
NoTime wrote:
jetero wrote:

He’s not “coming from” anywhere, NoTime other than Queens—he’s definitely not coming from a principled policy position.


Sure he is, the policy is - we should be prioritizing immigrants who can actively contribute to society, vs. those that in most cases (thought not all) are going to be burdens to an already taxed welfare system. In fact, in the case of the latter, we should be slowing the rate of immigration into our country.

jetero wrote:
The faults of a “misunderstood” person who is capable of critical and intelligent thought cannot he explained away as being the fault of his being “inarticulate” as you are telegraphing. (I don’t even think you believe it.) Bush II is the obvious corollary.


Yes they can. Trump is a horse's ass, and used to being able to say whatever he wants (and being praised for it in many cases). He's a relatively smart guy, he's just not articulate... at all. I'm sure you've met people in your life who were smart enough, but just not particularly articulate or well spoken.


NoTime, I do appreciate your response. As a person who has been called “relatively smart” while also being calls a “horse’s a*s,” I understand that narrative (it’s “believable” enough).

However, I don’t think he has a policy bone in his body. What you say re merit-based immigration (speaking from a position of privilege as a former American immigrant to Canada) is not something that’s necessarily in debate. However, I don’t think the President has ever stated coherently that that is his policy, nor, at the end of the day, do I think he cares.

Do you really believe he has coherent and consistent policy positions? Or is it more symbolic for you (I.e. he’s speaking for the “forgotten man” and doesn’t need to be concerned with the details)?


I honestly think Trump has some high level policy positions, but simply hasn't thought them completely through - or even thought about how to articulate them effectively. On some issues, I think he is completely fickle and willing to take any side. On others, I think he has some ideas and/or convictions.

I do think he truly wants to "make America great again" but has no real idea how to do it. So, as a result, I think he looks at the 1980's and thinks that's what he should strive for.

Regarding immigration, I think he has a very "common man" and "blue collar" viewpoint - that our nation was founded on accepting immigrants and that's good, but that a large number of immigrants are now simply coming here to live off of the government teat, and with no plan to truly integrate. So, how do you reconcile the two...? He hasn't really thought out a way to "correctly" articulate how he thinks it should be done... the GOP should've been working on that, but remember that they didn't really want him to be President, either.

Many (probably most) people (including those on this forum) have been somewhere and thought "wow, this place is a sh-thole"... Trump's the same. And, so, when trying to say that we shouldn't be accepting so many people from run-down, poverty-stricken (often lawless) places, he reverts to using that term.

Believe me, for all of the problems I had with Obama, I thought he was a great communicator, and I wish Trump had an ounce of that skill. But, he doesn't. So, we're left with daily (sometimes hourly) outrages as our President stumbles through his thoughts and a hostile media pounces.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am

I have seen sh*tholes with my own eyes. Children living in boxes. Women selling their bodies for a meal for their family. Junkies in the gutters. And that was just across the Burnside Bridge. But, yes, do go on about how much worse they are.

This a-hole says something that angers me to no end and he goes to a new low. Can someone please give him oral so we can remove him from office? Please?

As bad as Reagan was, at least he and those around him knew about diplomacy. This guy and his minions are just jerks.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:37 am

seb146 wrote:
Can someone please give him oral so we can remove him from office? Please?



That isn't enough just ask Bill Clinton. One thing I can't believe hasn't been discussed is how the networks aren't censoring the word @@@@hole and saying it and printing it on their telecasts. Really weird.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:37 am

seahawk wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The sad part is that he does have a point, when it comes to development aid. If the recipients of the help do not really strive to improve their country and are settling in the position of needing outside help, the local situation will never improve. Too bad that he has killed any debate about that with his racist and hate fuelled words.


The people don't always have a choice when they get Aid. I mean with the Haiti earthquake I am sure corrupt government officials made off with some or most of it.

Needless to say whether you think it or not you never say it. This just gets us that much closer to speaker Pelosi.


Sure, if you are hit by such a natural disaster you need help and this needs to be given even if corruption thrives on it. But if the local people never work against corruption the country will not get rid of it.

And what if that corruption has the full support and confidence of the US? And what of all the German immigrants that came here post WWI and WWII--was Europe not a sh!thole then? Spoilers! When the right talks about "sh!thole countries" they mean one thing: black countries--maybe some Latin countries if they're feeling progressive.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:07 am

apodino wrote:
To only allow people in from prospering nations turns the planet into a caste system, which I doubt anyone wants.

That is the alpha and the omega of today's Republican party. The end all be all. The rich are blessed and deserve more. The poor probably did something wrong in life to be poor and deserve punishment.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:11 am

Here's what Senator Ted Kennedy said about the 1965 Immigration Act:

“First, our cities will not be flooded with a million immigrants annually. Under the proposed bill, the present level of immigration remains substantially the same…

Secondly, the ethnic mix of this country will not be upset… Contrary to the charges in some quarters, [the bill] will not inundate America with immigrants from any one country or area, or the most populated and deprived nations of Africa and Asia…

In the final analysis, the ethnic pattern of immigration under the proposed measure is not expected to change as sharply as the critics seem to think… The bill will not flood our cities with immigrants. It will not upset the ethnic mix of our society. It will not relax the standards of admission. It will not cause American workers to lose their jobs.”


We used to need a lot of unskilled laborers.

We don't now.

We have lots of unskilled unemployed laborers here already. We'd like to get their fat happy butts to work, and off of Govt. welfare, before we see about the possibility of chain migrating the unemployed of every (expletive) country on this planet.

I wonder why many of these non English speaking impoverished people don't seek to be taken in by China, or Saudi Arabia???

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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:18 am

Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:50 am

787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.


Dinner table chatter is VERY different than talking as POTUS.
That is really what it comes down to.....

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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:08 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.


Dinner table chatter is VERY different than talking as POTUS.
That is really what it comes down to.....

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Agreed. So let’s keep the focus in this debate where it belongs.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:49 am

787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.

Oh give me a break. 99% of people have the decorum and wherewithal to moderate their speech like a goddam human being, unlike this brain dead Neanderthal that dropped out of his mother’s sh!thole.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:16 am

NIKV69 wrote:
One thing I can't believe hasn't been discussed is how the networks aren't censoring the word @@@@hole and saying it and printing it on their telecasts. Really weird.


Why should they censor quoting the President? He said it and the World knows. :confused:

Why do you feel the need to write "@@@@hole" rather than the actual word "shithole"? The word already appears 25 times (26 now) in this thread.

I can't begin to imagine the right-wing outrage if Trump was actually censored by the "liberal, fake news" media.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:38 am

scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
One thing I can't believe hasn't been discussed is how the networks aren't censoring the word @@@@hole and saying it and printing it on their telecasts. Really weird.


Why should they censor quoting the President? He said it and the World knows. :confused:

Why do you feel the need to write "@@@@hole" rather than the actual word "shithole"? The word already appears 25 times (26 now) in this thread.

I can't begin to imagine the right-wing outrage if Trump was actually censored by the "liberal, fake news" media.

They’re more outraged when they quote him directly :roll:
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:47 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.

Oh give me a break. 99% of people have the decorum and wherewithal to moderate their speech like a goddam human being, unlike this brain dead Neanderthal that dropped out of his mother’s sh!thole.


Agreed that he shouldn’t have said that especially since he is the POTUS as I already stated. This is the issue we should be discussing here.

But I’d be very certain that you at some point in your life thought or said something that would be inappropriate or racist to others. If not, well then you are a much better human being than 99.9% of the rest of us mortals.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:38 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

The people don't always have a choice when they get Aid. I mean with the Haiti earthquake I am sure corrupt government officials made off with some or most of it.

Needless to say whether you think it or not you never say it. This just gets us that much closer to speaker Pelosi.


Sure, if you are hit by such a natural disaster you need help and this needs to be given even if corruption thrives on it. But if the local people never work against corruption the country will not get rid of it.

And what if that corruption has the full support and confidence of the US? And what of all the German immigrants that came here post WWI and WWII--was Europe not a sh!thole then? Spoilers! When the right talks about "sh!thole countries" they mean one thing: black countries--maybe some Latin countries if they're feeling progressive.


Political problems have nothing to do with race. Trump however does link them, which just confirms his racist world view. In fact the people leaving those countries and coming to the USA are usually the ones willing to work hard to improve their living conditions, but I guess if you are raised with a golden spoon you kind of do not get it.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:44 am

seahawk wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Sure, if you are hit by such a natural disaster you need help and this needs to be given even if corruption thrives on it. But if the local people never work against corruption the country will not get rid of it.

And what if that corruption has the full support and confidence of the US? And what of all the German immigrants that came here post WWI and WWII--was Europe not a sh!thole then? Spoilers! When the right talks about "sh!thole countries" they mean one thing: black countries--maybe some Latin countries if they're feeling progressive.


Political problems have nothing to do with race. Trump however does link them, which just confirms his racist world view. In fact the people leaving those countries and coming to the USA are usually the ones willing to work hard to improve their living conditions, but I guess if you are raised with a golden spoon you kind of do not get it.


And apparently not working very hard. So indeed there is a disconnect between the two.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:22 pm

You just know Trump eventually going to get caught out saying the N word pubically. It's just a matter of when at this point.


Of course people from #Norway would love to move to a country where people are far more likely to be shot, live in poverty, get no healthcare because they’re poor, get no paid parental leave or subsidized daycare and see fewer women in political power. #Shithole


https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/stat ... 5423209472

Super80Fan wrote:
1. He is correct, those countries are awful and are a stain on this planet (notice how I said country, not people)


What is it that holds these "shithole" countries back? What is it that makes them "shithole"s? Corruption. What facilitates corruption like nothing else? The ability of those with dirty money to be able to launder it and then spend/access it unhindered. That's where Mr Trump comes in with his dodgy real estate dealings:

Donald Trump’s love of secretive shell companies has been well documented. He makes extensive use of them for his own businesses and since his election 70% of his company’s property sales have been made to limited-liability corporations (LLCs), according to USA Today.

In an extensive roundup of all the real-estate sales Trump has made since the 1980s, BuzzFeed found that more than 1,300 condos worth around $1.5 billion either owned or licensed by Trump were bought by shell companies in all-cash transactions. That’s 21% of the Trump Organization’s condo sales in the US, BuzzFeed reports.

The Treasury Department’s financial crimes unit says (pdf) shell companies and cash purchases are two of the most common ways of laundering money through real estate. Buying with cash lets criminals bypass anti-money laundering reviews that banks have to make when approving mortgages. Meanwhile, shell companies can provide an extraordinary level of secrecy, making it impossible for even the seller to know who they’re making a deal with.

That helps out a huge array of people who want to hide illicit funds. As Shruti Shah of anti-corruption NGO Coalition for Integrity puts it, shell firms’ secrecy makes them “a favorite tool for just about any criminal from tax evaders and money launderers to drug traffickers and kleptocrats.” The secrecy also has serious implications for national security—as shown in the case of a $500-million Manhattan skyscraper, which Iran secretly used as a slush fund for two decades without the US government knowing about it.

https://qz.com/1178875/trump-sold-1-5-b ... aunderers/

Of course I wouldn't expect Trump, nor the nincompoops who support him to ever think so deeply about that issue.

Revelation wrote:
And thus Trump's grandfather dodged the draft and headed to the Promised Land. He even tried to return, but they kicked him out for dodging the draft. Some times history turns on the smallest of things...


haha so maybe being a cowardly draft dodger is a genetic trait! I'm always surprised how Trump somehow gets a free pass for chickening out of Vietnam.
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:05 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.

Oh give me a break. 99% of people have the decorum and wherewithal to moderate their speech like a goddam human being, unlike this brain dead Neanderthal that dropped out of his mother’s sh!thole.

Indeed. To me the man's inability to moderate his speech adds fuel to the "mental unraveling" fire. If any of the special prosecutor investigations lead to charges, we could see the unraveling accelerate. It'd be a repeat of how Nixon unraveled during Watergate. All the principals said there ended up being an intense siege mentality around the White House as more and more aides got thrown under the bus to try to preserve the President. We could see the same thing play out as various players size up the cost of staying loyal to Drumpf.

787Driver wrote:
Agreed that he shouldn’t have said that especially since he is the POTUS as I already stated. This is the issue we should be discussing here.

But I’d be very certain that you at some point in your life thought or said something that would be inappropriate or racist to others. If not, well then you are a much better human being than 99.9% of the rest of us mortals.

99.9% people realize if they are prone to make unsolicited vulgar statements then they probably should not run for a job that involves representing your nation as the Head of State. They'd be better off in a job where such things are tolerated, such as comedian or bartender at their local dive bar. But Drumpf is not self-aware. He has no ability to put his actions into any sort of framework. Stuff just comes out his shithole uncensored. He and his followers call this "genius". The rest of us call this "stupidity".
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:28 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:

Ever noticed that visa (non)requirements work on the very principle you have just described? All over the world.


Presumably Americans require Indian/Chinese/Brazilian visas because the US is a mess?

Besides, visa processes vet individuals as individuals. They don't work on the principle that every applicant from the country should be kept out. When visas are denied, they are usually denied for a reason (financial means etc) that isn't simply "you're from X country".


That is not true at all. A person applying for a visa into the US is very much ranked by country. That ranking is determined by the history of that country's previous US visa holders. If those previous visitors had a high delinquency, future applicants will have more difficulty. This seems to be common with other countries, a Colombian once told me it was near impossible for her to get a visa anywhere North, but she could easily travel anywhere South.

It is unfortunate the US continues to pay the price for European colonialism. Haiti and Africa being prime examples.
 
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:26 pm

NoTime wrote:
I honestly think Trump has some high level policy positions, but simply hasn't thought them completely through - or even thought about how to articulate them effectively. On some issues, I think he is completely fickle and willing to take any side. On others, I think he has some ideas and/or convictions.


Are those desirable qualities in a head of state?

NoTime wrote:
I do think he truly wants to "make America great again" but has no real idea how to do it.


Why do we have to start from the position that it is not great?

NoTime wrote:
So, as a result, I think he looks at the 1980's and thinks that's what he should strive for.


So back to the time when the working class really started to lose their jobs in droves?

NoTime wrote:
Regarding immigration, I think he has a very "common man" and "blue collar" viewpoint - that our nation was founded on accepting immigrants and that's good, but that a large number of immigrants are now simply coming here to live off of the government teat, and with no plan to truly integrate.


That is a trope that I am confident is the exception rather than the rule.

NoTime wrote:
So, how do you reconcile the two...? He hasn't really thought out a way to "correctly" articulate how he thinks it should be done... the GOP should've been working on that, but remember that they didn't really want him to be President, either.


Man the bar for the President of the United States is so low these days. Poor guy, he's just misunderstood/he kind of knows what he's doing/hasn't had a chance to really think about how to voice how he feels without offending others.

NoTime wrote:
Many (probably most) people (including those on this forum) have been somewhere and thought "wow, this place is a sh-thole"... Trump's the same. And, so, when trying to say that we shouldn't be accepting so many people from run-down, poverty-stricken (often lawless) places, he reverts to using that term.


I think the problem I have with such an argument is that, at the end of the day, it is a trope. Since this President deals in cartoonish views of the world around him, we're sucked into his world. So we not only start from the standpoint that immigration is a "problem" and needs reform, we start from the standpoint of "there's a flood of poor immigrants pouring into this country from sh*thole countries wanting to suck off of the government's teat and not assimilate" and have to dig ourselves out of that hole.

NoTime wrote:
Believe me, for all of the problems I had with Obama, I thought he was a great communicator, and I wish Trump had an ounce of that skill. But, he doesn't. So, we're left with daily (sometimes hourly) outrages as our President stumbles through his thoughts and a hostile media pounces.


Obama was certainly articulate but it seems to be the case that he wasn't a great communicator as is evidenced by his policy successes. That said, it was pretty much a losing battle from day 1. You can probably say the same about the futility of a Trump presidency, but the guy doesn't do a damned thing to help himself so he won't get any sympathy out of me.

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