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casinterest
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:21 pm

So far,it seems that we have a can kicking with a lot of stomach acid for Government workers. We will be right back here in February and March. The Democrats have a promise on the issue of DACA, and Trump is still going to have to push for wall funding with the GOP.
 
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seb146
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:09 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
I've stopped trying to get people like NIKV69 to see logic and reason. But those of you who would like to engage in an activity similar to banging your head against a brick wall but with fewer opportunities for reward, by all means go right ahead.

ANYWHO, I'd like to start an informal "betting" pool about how long this one will last. If you win, you will win one internet and my eternal adoration and admiration, which may be traded in for brownie points. ;)

I will start the bidding with a prediction for 14 days.


I am not sure where you get logic and reason by letting illegal aliens flock into this country unfettered and giving them everything like your state but you're losing your bet because it seems the Dems are abandoning UP chuck Schumer and are going to vote in the Senate to stop this madness.

Thank God for people like Joe Manchin. There are some level headed thinking Democrats out there.


I am still waiting for you righties to go into any welfare office and get welfare with no identification. You righties seem to think this is what happens, so do it and let us know how that goes. Let us know how many thousands of dollars you can get for free with no identification. You righties seem to think this is the only reason people come to the United States. It couldn't be that they are tired of being unemployed in their home country and they can make up to $3 an hour here working jobs that American's refuse to do. Oh, no. Couldn't be that....
 
NoTime
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:42 pm

DocLightning wrote:
I will start the bidding with a prediction for 14 days.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

The Democrats (unlike the far leftists on this forum) apparently realized that this theater of the absurd was damaging their cause.

As I've said previously, the average American doesn't like the idea of Democrats denying services to US citizens on behalf of non-citizens. It's not rocket science, of course, but it is perhaps a bit too much for some globalist cretins to comprehend.

With any luck, these (D) geniuses will try this nonsense again in February.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:13 am

Tonight, during Mark Levin's first hour, he carefully points out all of Chucky Schumer's lies, through quotes, about the 1986 amnesty Bill, and the 1990 Immigration Bill, that was supposed to curtail chain migration, and refocus immigration to English speaking people.... But did the opposite.

It's time corrections were made, that were supposed to have been accomplished by the bi-partisan bills of 1986 and 1990.

It's high time.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:25 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tonight, during Mark Levin's first hour, he carefully points out all of Chucky Schumer's lies, through quotes, about the 1986 amnesty Bill, and the 1990 Immigration Bill, that was supposed to curtail chain migration, and refocus immigration to English speaking people.... But did the opposite.

It's time corrections were made, that were supposed to have been accomplished by the bi-partisan bills of 1986 and 1990.

It's high time.


Mark Levin is a moron, a coward, and a deceitful person. What he calls "lies" are only his own misunderstandings of the bills, and his ignorance of how 30+ years of immigration since then have drastically reframed the argument for DACA.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:29 am

casinterest wrote:
So far,it seems that we have a can kicking with a lot of stomach acid for Government workers. We will be right back here in February and March. The Democrats have a promise on the issue of DACA, and Trump is still going to have to push for wall funding with the GOP.


Democrats have a promise they can introduce amendments to a Senate immigration bill during debate. They could have done that already. In other words, they extracted absolutely nothing from this shut-down.

The shutdown was a collosal waste of time that just put Democrats on-the-record as standing with a small group of 800,000 non-citizens over the entire American public. Democrats are apparently working to gift wrap the midterms to the GOP.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:42 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
casinterest wrote:
So far,it seems that we have a can kicking with a lot of stomach acid for Government workers. We will be right back here in February and March. The Democrats have a promise on the issue of DACA, and Trump is still going to have to push for wall funding with the GOP.


Democrats have a promise they can introduce amendments to a Senate immigration bill during debate. They could have done that already. In other words, they extracted absolutely nothing from this shut-down.

The shutdown was a collosal waste of time that just put Democrats on-the-record as standing with a small group of 800,000 non-citizens over the entire American public. Democrats are apparently working to gift wrap the midterms to the GOP.



Yes it is the GOP way to demonize folks in the minority, and as a longer standing of this standoff, the kids in CHIP and the dreamers were held hostage. The GOP continues to break promises and kick the can down the street. The dreamers are a special class of non-citizen as it wasn't by their choice that they are here, and in many cases are straddled by siblings that are citizens It is now a 30 + year issue. . The GOP just like to use illegal so they can desensitize their ignorant base to the real issues.

The Democrats have put the GOP up on notice that this issue needs to be resolved, and if the GOP votes to end the dreamers chances, then the Democrats can point across the border at all the Manufacturing jobs the US lost, and blame the GOP for training them and getting rid of them.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:25 am

casinterest wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tonight, during Mark Levin's first hour, he carefully points out all of Chucky Schumer's lies, through quotes, about the 1986 amnesty Bill, and the 1990 Immigration Bill, that was supposed to curtail chain migration, and refocus immigration to English speaking people.... But did the opposite.

It's time corrections were made, that were supposed to have been accomplished by the bi-partisan bills of 1986 and 1990.

It's high time.


Mark Levin is a moron, a coward, and a deceitful person. What he calls "lies" are only his own misunderstandings of the bills, and his ignorance of how 30+ years of immigration since then have drastically reframed the argument for DACA.


Casinterst, I'll try to pass along your personal attacks and insightful evaluation of Mark Levin's misunderstandings to him. Look for Mark's retraction any day now. :lol:
 
NoTime
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:33 am

casinterest wrote:
Yes it is the GOP way to demonize folks in the minority, and as a longer standing of this standoff, the kids in CHIP and the dreamers were held hostage.


Quit lying. The original spending bill, the one the Dems prevented from being implemented, included CHIP funding.
 
LMP737
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:42 am

NoTime wrote:

It also makes sense if you understand that the republicans need 60 votes to pass the spending legislation, and the democrats refused to vote for it because they want to make 800,000 illegal immigrants magically legal before they will agree to allow the government to start functioning again.


A shutdown falls on the President’s lack of leadership. He can’t even control his party and get people together in a room. A shutdown means the President is weak.

I didn't say that. Donald Trump did in 2013.
 
LMP737
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:44 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
NO AUTOMATIC CHAIN MIGRATION


So I take it your family all showed up at the same time with a bag full of money and masters degree in hand?
 
Caryjack
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:35 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Any idea what changes Trump want to chain immigration and diversity programs?
He wants to eliminate both programs and go to a strictly merit based program. That and border security, including a wall, gets the DACA folks permanent legal residence in the USA.
 
ltbewr
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:46 am

The USA's immigration and related enforcement policy for decades has been a failure due to political pressures on politicians of both parties from the rich and corporations for cheap and exploitable labor and both parties pandering to immigrant ethnic groups to get votes from those that can vote. This has also been made worse by the economic and political conditions the USA have in part created, especially in Mexico and Central American countries that limited employment and personal safety driving millions to the relative economic and political security of the USA.
One good thing to come out of this shutdown showdown was the 6 year funding assurances for the CHIP health care program for children which the Republicans were also wrongly holding hostage on in any deal. I think in the next couple of weeks we will see a somewhat watered down DACA deal including harder paths to legality or citizenship, with billions for increased enforcement on the Mexican border, many more roundups by ICE in certain areas around the country, and related actions. The Democrats cannot look like they support another shutdown nor look like they are pandering to illegal immigrants as know they will lose in this fall's election even if helps Pres. Trump.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:05 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tonight, during Mark Levin's first hour, he carefully points out all of Chucky Schumer's lies, through quotes, about the 1986 amnesty Bill, and the 1990 Immigration Bill, that was supposed to curtail chain migration, and refocus immigration to English speaking people.... But did the opposite.

It's time corrections were made, that were supposed to have been accomplished by the bi-partisan bills of 1986 and 1990.

It's high time.


Mark Levin is a moron, a coward, and a deceitful person. What he calls "lies" are only his own misunderstandings of the bills, and his ignorance of how 30+ years of immigration since then have drastically reframed the argument for DACA.


Casinterst, I'll try to pass along your personal attacks and insightful evaluation of Mark Levin's misunderstandings to him. Look for Mark's retraction any day now. :lol:


Pass it on to him. He needs to hear from someone other than his rabid sycophant listeners.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:08 pm

NoTime wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Yes it is the GOP way to demonize folks in the minority, and as a longer standing of this standoff, the kids in CHIP and the dreamers were held hostage.


Quit lying. The original spending bill, the one the Dems prevented from being implemented, included CHIP funding.


I am not lying. The dreamers are still being held hostage. Just because the Republicans after SIX MONTHS of LYING COWARDICE finally put in CHIP on Friday, does not change the fact that they are using lies and hostages to move bills.
 
slider
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tonight, during Mark Levin's first hour, he carefully points out all of Chucky Schumer's lies, through quotes, about the 1986 amnesty Bill, and the 1990 Immigration Bill, that was supposed to curtail chain migration, and refocus immigration to English speaking people.... But did the opposite.

It's time corrections were made, that were supposed to have been accomplished by the bi-partisan bills of 1986 and 1990.

It's high time.


Mark Levin is a moron, a coward, and a deceitful person. What he calls "lies" are only his own misunderstandings of the bills, and his ignorance of how 30+ years of immigration since then have drastically reframed the argument for DACA.


Levin is a goddamn national treasure, a brilliant mind, and understands the Constitution and the legalities behind it after having studied it, written about it and spoken to it for decades.

I challenge you to point out where he's wrong. I'll wait.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:41 pm

slider wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tonight, during Mark Levin's first hour, he carefully points out all of Chucky Schumer's lies, through quotes, about the 1986 amnesty Bill, and the 1990 Immigration Bill, that was supposed to curtail chain migration, and refocus immigration to English speaking people.... But did the opposite.

It's time corrections were made, that were supposed to have been accomplished by the bi-partisan bills of 1986 and 1990.

It's high time.


Mark Levin is a moron, a coward, and a deceitful person. What he calls "lies" are only his own misunderstandings of the bills, and his ignorance of how 30+ years of immigration since then have drastically reframed the argument for DACA.


Levin is a goddamn national treasure, a brilliant mind, and understands the Constitution and the legalities behind it after having studied it, written about it and spoken to it for decades.

I challenge you to point out where he's wrong. I'll wait.


Excuse me, It may take me a few months to stop laughing.

Levin understands the constitution about as well as Trump understands the bible.
 
NIKV69
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:50 pm

casinterest wrote:

I am not lying. The dreamers are still being held hostage. Just because the Republicans after SIX MONTHS of LYING COWARDICE finally put in CHIP on Friday, does not change the fact that they are using lies and hostages to move bills.


This is just more fearmongering. The GOP is not going to deport the dreamers and all they are asking for is border security and other things that prevent more illegals from flocking in here once they see the US giving amnesty to illegals who did it in the past. Let us not forget the Democrats had total control of white house and congress in 2009 and refused to vote on a clean immigration bill that the GOP could do nothing to stop. Why didn't they? Because they knew it would kill them in the mid terms and amnesty is very unpopular when you don't do anything to secure your border and have don't promote LEGAL immigration.

Again, the reason we are in this boat is one party wants legal immigration with a secure border and the other wants the California model of unfettered border crossing and sanctuary cities full of illegal immigrants that get all the perks. All because the huge majority of illegal immigrants vote for that party.

slider wrote:



Levin is a goddamn national treasure, a brilliant mind, and understands the Constitution and the legalities behind it after having studied it, written about it and spoken to it for decades.

I challenge you to point out where he's wrong. I'll wait.


Levin is smart though I wouldn't put him up there with Rush. What hurts Levin is he is basically a rabble rouser and it puts him on the same level as Chris Matthews and Mika Brezinski. We could do without people like Levin and Hannity.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:00 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

I am not lying. The dreamers are still being held hostage. Just because the Republicans after SIX MONTHS of LYING COWARDICE finally put in CHIP on Friday, does not change the fact that they are using lies and hostages to move bills.


This is just more fearmongering. The GOP is not going to deport the dreamers and all they are asking for is border security and other things that prevent more illegals from flocking in here once they see the US giving amnesty to illegals who did it in the past. Let us not forget the Democrats had total control of white house and congress in 2009 and refused to vote on a clean immigration bill that the GOP could do nothing to stop. Why didn't they? Because they knew it would kill them in the mid terms and amnesty is very unpopular when you don't do anything to secure your border and have don't promote LEGAL immigration.

Again, the reason we are in this boat is one party wants legal immigration with a secure border and the other wants the California model of unfettered border crossing and sanctuary cities full of illegal immigrants that get all the perks. All because the huge majority of illegal immigrants vote for that party.



1. Illegal immigrants don't vote.
2. The money we waste on the "Wall" would be better spent on enforcement agents going to each place of business and demanding to see identity verifcation. More than 50 % of the illegals got here without crossing the southern border, and more than 50% got here legally.
3. The rest of your retort about 2009 is not applicable as the economy was collapsed after the previous administration. Immigration was a backburner issue at that point. No one was coming to America as there were not jobs to be had.
 
NIKV69
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:46 pm

Schumer just pulled his offer on securing the border. What a surprise. He never intended on following though because he wants illegal immigration. Actions speak louder than words.
 
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seb146
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:47 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Schumer just pulled his offer on securing the border. What a surprise. He never intended on following though because he wants illegal immigration. Actions speak louder than words.


Because Trump refuses to support any deal with Dreamers. You left that part out.
 
stratosphere
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:48 pm

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
I've stopped trying to get people like NIKV69 to see logic and reason. But those of you who would like to engage in an activity similar to banging your head against a brick wall but with fewer opportunities for reward, by all means go right ahead.

ANYWHO, I'd like to start an informal "betting" pool about how long this one will last. If you win, you will win one internet and my eternal adoration and admiration, which may be traded in for brownie points. ;)

I will start the bidding with a prediction for 14 days.


I am not sure where you get logic and reason by letting illegal aliens flock into this country unfettered and giving them everything like your state but you're losing your bet because it seems the Dems are abandoning UP chuck Schumer and are going to vote in the Senate to stop this madness.

Thank God for people like Joe Manchin. There are some level headed thinking Democrats out there.


I am still waiting for you righties to go into any welfare office and get welfare with no identification. You righties seem to think this is what happens, so do it and let us know how that goes. Let us know how many thousands of dollars you can get for free with no identification. You righties seem to think this is the only reason people come to the United States. It couldn't be that they are tired of being unemployed in their home country and they can make up to $3 an hour here working jobs that American's refuse to do. Oh, no. Couldn't be that....


This is my point you need ID to get welfare, fly, buy liquor, drive a car etc.. so why all the heartburn for voter ID? So your argument should prove that most everyone has an ID especially welfare recipients so there is no excuse then not to have an ID to vote.
 
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seb146
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:53 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

I am not lying. The dreamers are still being held hostage. Just because the Republicans after SIX MONTHS of LYING COWARDICE finally put in CHIP on Friday, does not change the fact that they are using lies and hostages to move bills.


This is just more fearmongering. The GOP is not going to deport the dreamers and all they are asking for is border security and other things that prevent more illegals from flocking in here once they see the US giving amnesty to illegals who did it in the past. Let us not forget the Democrats had total control of white house and congress in 2009 and refused to vote on a clean immigration bill that the GOP could do nothing to stop. Why didn't they? Because they knew it would kill them in the mid terms and amnesty is very unpopular when you don't do anything to secure your border and have don't promote LEGAL immigration.

Again, the reason we are in this boat is one party wants legal immigration with a secure border and the other wants the California model of unfettered border crossing and sanctuary cities full of illegal immigrants that get all the perks. All because the huge majority of illegal immigrants vote for that party.


Nothing that you say adds up. Why didn't they pass anything in 2009? Because Republicans refused to compromise. They want it their way or not at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fa ... 12aca8004d

The only thing Republicans seem to want is a wall. How does that address the people already living here? Who were brought here as children?
 
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Tugger
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:02 pm

stratosphere wrote:
This is my point you need ID to get welfare, fly, buy liquor, drive a car etc.. so why all the heartburn for voter ID? So your argument should prove that most everyone has an ID especially welfare recipients so there is no excuse then not to have an ID to vote.

My big gripe with it is that it is a waste of money and effort. And nothing of any substance has shown it is otherwise.

So why do it? When the current system is doing well?

The other side though is that I really don't care if voter ID is implemented, just don't be false and abusive about it:
- Give a lot of time, say two years (again I will note there is no failing issue that is demanding an immediate solution)
- Have a plan to allow people to vote if they show up without ID (that allows them to also get the ID for the next time)
- Don't create a system that somehow magically impacts the voting ability of a certain group(s) of people
- Plan to go out to everyone, travel to where people live and work and allow everyone to sign up for and obtain the required ID in plenty of time for any future election it applies too
- Make the ID free

I am probably missing one or two more but you get the idea.

The fake bullcrap that some spew about needing ID and then creating something that just harms real voters needs to stop. No one should tolerate it.

Tugg
 
NIKV69
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:25 pm

seb146 wrote:

Nothing that you say adds up. Why didn't they pass anything in 2009? Because Republicans refused to compromise. They want it their way or not at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fa ... 12aca8004d

The only thing Republicans seem to want is a wall. How does that address the people already living here? Who were brought here as children?


The Dems didn't need Republican compromise in early 2009 they had both houses and 60 votes in senate and Obama in WH.

As for your Dreamers question. If you give Dreamers amnesty and don't secure the border it will cause an influx of more young illegals who think all they have to do is get here and they are fine (which is basicallly true) Any deal on DACA has to include making our borders stronger and promoting legal immigration. Which is something the Dems won't do. It has nothing to do with Trump not wanting to a deal on Dreamers. thats BS. He isn't deporting them. Reciting it over and over doesn't make it true.
 
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Tugger
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:26 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Any deal on DACA has to include making our borders stronger and promoting legal immigration. Which is something the Dems won't do.

From what I read you are wrong. Stronger enforcement has been supported as well as improving legal immigration.

Tugg
 
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seb146
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:49 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Nothing that you say adds up. Why didn't they pass anything in 2009? Because Republicans refused to compromise. They want it their way or not at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fa ... 12aca8004d

The only thing Republicans seem to want is a wall. How does that address the people already living here? Who were brought here as children?


The Dems didn't need Republican compromise in early 2009 they had both houses and 60 votes in senate and Obama in WH.


To move out of committee and to keep riders from being added and procedural, no. Bills do not just go from one chamber to the other without going through committee. Learn civics, please.

NIKV69 wrote:
As for your Dreamers question. If you give Dreamers amnesty and don't secure the border it will cause an influx of more young illegals who think all they have to do is get here and they are fine (which is basicallly true) Any deal on DACA has to include making our borders stronger and promoting legal immigration. Which is something the Dems won't do. It has nothing to do with Trump not wanting to a deal on Dreamers. thats BS. He isn't deporting them. Reciting it over and over doesn't make it true.


Again, you need to learn basic American civics and how government works. In order for a bill to become law, after it is reconciled (the bill passes the full House and Senate after committee meetings and approving changes from the other chamber) it is then sent to the president for a signature. However, tRump has said he will not sign any bill to do with DACA after he said he would. YOUR party controls both chambers of Congress and the White House and can not get anything done. We the people will remember this come November.

Besides, DACA has very little to do with border security. They are two separate issues. DACA has to do with people who are already here. Border security has to do with the future people who may want to come to a country that hates them. Even still, Mexico is not paying for our border security like YOUR president said they would.
 
NoTime
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:02 am

casinterest wrote:
2. The money we waste on the "Wall" would be better spent on enforcement agents going to each place of business and demanding to see identity verifcation.


Oh, you mean like ICE has been doing recently? Which led to protests from leftists and the state of California threatening to prosecute any businesses that cooperate with ICE?
 
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Tugger
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:19 am

NoTime wrote:
Oh, you mean like ICE has been doing recently? Which led to protests from leftists and the state of California threatening to prosecute any businesses that cooperate with ICE?

Different states have different laws regarding this type of cooperation between local, state and federal entities. I believe there are states that have laws mandating businesses cooperate with feds. I take you you object to those laws too?

My only real (very real) concern with blindly "cooperating" with federal requests is the costs involved and being imposed on state or local entities. I do not agree with unfunded mandates. Do you support unfunded mandates?

Tugg
 
NoTime
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:42 am

Tugger wrote:
Different states have different laws regarding this type of cooperation between local, state and federal entities. I believe there are states that have laws mandating businesses cooperate with feds. I take you you object to those laws too?


Not really. I just get tired of libs spouting other methods of immigration enforcement, when they themselves would very likely be raging if those exact methods were put into real practice. "casinterest" says the border wall money would be better spent going into businesses and "demanding to see identity verifcation"... but would probably then liken Trump to Hitler (if he hasn't already) for demanding to see peoples' papers.

Or, I guess he simply might not have actually gotten that far in his thought process... and simply likes to spout off whatever nonsense is valuable to him at the time. But, I do generally give you lefties more credit than that.
 
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Tugger
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:53 am

NoTime wrote:
better spent going into businesses and "demanding to see identity verifcation"...

You do realize that means going to the business and its ownership and reviewing and validating the employment docs they collect for their employees, don't you? It is not going to the individual employees.

Also you didn't answer if you support unfunded mandates?

I am fairly centrist on many things. Immigration is one place that I think we need good strong laws that are enforced. But that allow immigration, vetted responsibly (not "targeted", everyone) to be a strong contributor to the economy. Shutting down or out immigration is a mistake. I also do very much find the wall as it appears to be talked about nowadays, to be mostly a waste. In specific locations, yes, "a big beautiful wall" across the entire southern border (or even a significant portion). No. Stupid. (I also don't support endless welfare, public pension bloat, etc. but do support healthcare everyone with limits.)

Tugg
 
NoTime
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:04 am

Tugger wrote:
NoTime wrote:
better spent going into businesses and "demanding to see identity verifcation"...

You do realize that means going to the business and its ownership and reviewing and validating the employment docs they collect for their employees, don't you? It is not going to the individual employees.


No, I don't know that that's what was meant. Can you infer that from what casinterest posted? (Of course he'll say that, now.) Regardless, it's of little consequence to a left so rabidly anti-Trump. Whether ICE is demanding papers from individual employees, or demanding them from employers, a significant portion of the left will lose their minds over it - some of them already have.

Tugger wrote:
Also you didn't answer if you support unfunded mandates?


No. On it's face, I do not support unfunded mandates. I guess there might be some cases in which I could be a little more open to the idea, but not for immigration.

Tugger wrote:
I am fairly centrist on many things.


Contrary to what many might think around here, I actually am too - particularly on social issues. (Although, I do enjoy playing devils advocate in many cases.)

Tugger wrote:
Immigration is one place that I think we need good strong laws that are enforced. But that allow immigration, vetted responsibly (not "targeted", everyone) to be a strong contributor to the economy.


Agreed. (Although, I think "targeted" is a perfectly applicable word.) The problem is that a huge portion of the immigrants that are being allowed into the country are, most certainly, not strong contributors to the economy.

Tugger wrote:
Shutting down or out immigration is a mistake.


No one wants to shut it down. Or, at least no reasonable person does.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14171
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:53 am

NoTime wrote:
casinterest wrote:
2. The money we waste on the "Wall" would be better spent on enforcement agents going to each place of business and demanding to see identity verifcation.


Oh, you mean like ICE has been doing recently? Which led to protests from leftists and the state of California threatening to prosecute any businesses that cooperate with ICE?


Show me an honest article that shows this. Most articles out there put forth that in their efforts to go on "raids" ICE is actually violating the business owners, who are lawful citizens, their 4th Amendment rights against illegal searches and seizure. The California law just requires employers check for federal warrants prior to letting ICE ransack the place.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22270
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Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:19 am

DocLightning wrote:

I will start the bidding with a prediction for 14 days.


Welp.

I screwed THAT pooch...
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14566
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:25 am

seb146 wrote:
Besides, DACA has very little to do with border security. They are two separate issues. DACA has to do with people who are already here. Border security has to do with the future people who may want to come to a country that hates them. Even still, Mexico is not paying for our border security like YOUR president said they would.


They are not separate issues the reason we have this situation and have dreamers where is it was too easy to come in illegally or overstay a visa. Then only to say "Oh I was so young and my parents brought me so it's not my fault let me stay" OK we are going to let them stay but it sends a message to every one in Mexico that all you have to do is get here and you are home free and can never be deported.

We don't want this to happen anymore. You do. Your party does. You want illegal after illegal to get into the country and give them sanctuary and ultimately citizenship . We have to stop that and have a system where you have to come here legally and to do that after amnesty is signed is to secure the border to the degree the president is happy with. Then the dreamers will get what they want. Schumer tried to bluff and he got called now he is going to posture more? Not give any thing to strengthen our border? The man is a lunatic and I am ashamed he is a senator from my state.
 
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casinterest
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Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: US government shuts down ...

Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:13 pm

NoTime wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Different states have different laws regarding this type of cooperation between local, state and federal entities. I believe there are states that have laws mandating businesses cooperate with feds. I take you you object to those laws too?


Not really. I just get tired of libs spouting other methods of immigration enforcement, when they themselves would very likely be raging if those exact methods were put into real practice. "casinterest" says the border wall money would be better spent going into businesses and "demanding to see identity verifcation"... but would probably then liken Trump to Hitler (if he hasn't already) for demanding to see peoples' papers.

Or, I guess he simply might not have actually gotten that far in his thought process... and simply likes to spout off whatever nonsense is valuable to him at the time. But, I do generally give you lefties more credit than that.



Trump is a lying incompetent abusive coward . If you think that sounds like Hitler, then those are your thoughts. The fact that you think a wall will solve a problem means you haven't thought through what a wall means and what it really does. Especially if "Illegal Immigration" is your real target. If I were to sell you a product and told you it work work less than 50% of the time, would you buy it? If I told you it would cost you a service fee every month that you owned it, would you pay it? That is the wall.

Papers please works fine for the gop when it comes to voting , why not in verifying that firms are hiring legal residents?
Oh that's right,. because the GOP is all about lies when it comes to their Money bags.
 
NoTime
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:21 am

Re: US government shuts down ...

Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:00 am

casinterest wrote:
The fact that you think a wall will solve a problem means you haven't thought through what a wall means and what it really does. Especially if "Illegal Immigration" is your real target. If I were to sell you a product and told you it work work less than 50% of the time, would you buy it? If I told you it would cost you a service fee every month that you owned it, would you pay it? That is the wall.


Are you more qualified to speak on this than special forces soldiers?

Assaults by tactical teams on prototypes of President Donald Trump’s proposed wall with Mexico indicate the barriers’ imposing heights should stop border crossers, a U.S. official with direct knowledge of the rigorous assessment told The Associated Press.

Military special forces and U.S. Customs and Border Protection special units spent three weeks trying to breach and scale the eight models in San Diego, using jackhammers, saws, torches and other tools and climbing devices, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information was not authorized for public release.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/19/ ... -in-tests/


I mean, seriously, walls have worked for literally thousands of years. Why do you think the average illegal immigrant is going to somehow overcome them? Special forces soldiers couldn't scale them, even with equipment. Are the immigrants going to go underground? Maybe, but that would drastically slow the flow across the border and would require a huge amount of effort from the infiltrators.

In fact, walls work so well that Obama started a project in Jordan to stem the flow of refugees and ISIS...

The wall, which began as a $20 million project in 2008 to erect a set of surveillance towers along a 30-mile (50 km) stretch of the border with Syria, has since expanded into a program costing half a billion dollars, according to defense officials who spoke to VICE News. Called the Jordan Border Security Program or JBSP, the wall is ostensibly meant to stop weapons of mass destruction from getting out, but since 2013 has refocused on detecting Islamic State fighters and arms smuggling, as well as refugees, on both sides of the border.

When completed later this decade, the border wall will have a camera-studded high-security fence, plus a network of ground sensors and a set of fixed and mobile surveillance towers that will be able to see and detect activity five miles away on either side of the fence. The entire system funnels into a joint US-Jordanian command center, where the United States also shares additional intelligence with Jordan about external threats to the kingdom.

https://news.vice.com/article/the-great ... -state-out


I just don't understand why dems think illegal immigrants will be able to magically overcome walls, when they've been effective for millennia.

casinterest wrote:
Papers please works fine for the gop when it comes to voting , why not in verifying that firms are hiring legal residents?


Why not both?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14691
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: US government shuts down ...

Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:03 am

NoTime wrote:
I mean, seriously, walls have worked for literally thousands of years. Why do you think the average illegal immigrant is going to somehow overcome them?


You mean to say that walls have literally failed for thousands of years, right? Even the Chinese wall failed.....

Special forces soldiers couldn't scale them, even with equipment.


Considering that normal people, without much in the way of equipment, got over the inner German Wall/Double Fence/Mine field protected/densely manned by soldiers with standing orders to shoot quite frequently they have been paid or ordered to fail or are in fact incompetent.

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14171
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: US government shuts down ...

Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:58 pm

NoTime wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The fact that you think a wall will solve a problem means you haven't thought through what a wall means and what it really does. Especially if "Illegal Immigration" is your real target. If I were to sell you a product and told you it work work less than 50% of the time, would you buy it? If I told you it would cost you a service fee every month that you owned it, would you pay it? That is the wall.


Are you more qualified to speak on this than special forces soldiers?


Nope.



NoTime wrote:
Assaults by tactical teams on prototypes of President Donald Trump’s proposed wall with Mexico indicate the barriers’ imposing heights should stop border crossers, a U.S. official with direct knowledge of the rigorous assessment told The Associated Press.

Military special forces and U.S. Customs and Border Protection special units spent three weeks trying to breach and scale the eight models in San Diego, using jackhammers, saws, torches and other tools and climbing devices, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information was not authorized for public release.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/19/ ... -in-tests/


I mean, seriously, walls have worked for literally thousands of years. Why do you think the average illegal immigrant is going to somehow overcome them? Special forces soldiers couldn't scale them, even with equipment. Are the immigrants going to go underground? Maybe, but that would drastically slow the flow across the border and would require a huge amount of effort from the infiltrators.

In fact, walls work so well that Obama started a project in Jordan to stem the flow of refugees and ISIS


Go back and reread your article. The whole thing this time. Here is the cliff note. They didn't fail. It took more work in some cases, but they mostly were able to climb over them. Take note of the following exerpt.

"The highly trained testers scaled 16 to 20 feet unassisted but needed help after that, said the official who described the assaults on the wall prototypes to the AP. Testers also expressed safety concerns about getting down from 30 feet.


Only once did a tester manage to land a hook on top of the wall without help, the official said. Tubes atop some models repelled climbing devices but wouldn’t work in more mountainous areas because the terrain is too jagged.:"


Note that concern about the 30 foot fall. That would be on the US side, most of the time for now. And that would incur medical costs and transportation back in addition to the wall.

NoTime wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Papers please works fine for the gop when it comes to voting , why not in verifying that firms are hiring legal residents?


Why not both?

Walls have use, but not on the scale and cost that Trump is pushing.


quote="NoTime"]n fact, walls work so well that Obama started a project in Jordan to stem the flow of refugees and ISIS...

The wall, which began as a $20 million project in 2008 to erect a set of surveillance towers along a 30-mile (50 km) stretch of the border with Syria, has since expanded into a program costing half a billion dollars, according to defense officials who spoke to VICE News. Called the Jordan Border Security Program or JBSP, the wall is ostensibly meant to stop weapons of mass destruction from getting out, but since 2013 has refocused on detecting Islamic State fighters and arms smuggling, as well as refugees, on both sides of the border.

When completed later this decade, the border wall will have a camera-studded high-security fence, plus a network of ground sensors and a set of fixed and mobile surveillance towers that will be able to see and detect activity five miles away on either side of the fence. The entire system funnels into a joint US-Jordanian command center, where the United States also shares additional intelligence with Jordan about external threats to the kingdom.

https://news.vice.com/article/the-great ... -state-out
[/quote]


hmmm 30 miles that cost .5 billion miles There is that much wall space in San Diego, and they aren't using Concrete Steel monster walls. . And we are footing the bill for it. And all we will get out of the Mexico wall is more medical costs and repair costs and surveillance costs.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: US government shuts down ...

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:30 pm

The diversity visa program will be replaced by a program similar to mail order bride program, so countries cannot send their worst. Only the best will be chosen from catalogs.

Links will be cut in the chain migration.

There will be a WALL fund to build "wall" or to implement electronic measures.

DACA will get citizenship in 10-12 years.

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