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ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 27, 2018 1:52 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Im going to suggest a 2nd Abortion referendum in Ireland. I want to make sure people know what they voted for.


Go for it.

The vote was 67-33, which in parliamentary terms is a supermajority, so exceptionally unlikely the result would change. I doubt either side - winner or loser - will object to a re-run.

Can't say that about Brexit, can we? For some reason, Leavers are scared of a second vote. Why?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 27, 2018 3:13 pm

olle wrote:
Then UK need to start to negotiate this with EU and do that fast.

The clock is ticking!


I think we headed towards a 'no deal' scenario.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 27, 2018 3:56 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Im going to suggest a 2nd Abortion referendum in Ireland. I want to make sure people know what they voted for.


Go for it.

The vote was 67-33, which in parliamentary terms is a supermajority, so exceptionally unlikely the result would change. I doubt either side - winner or loser - will object to a re-run.

Can't say that about Brexit, can we? For some reason, Leavers are scared of a second vote. Why?


I'm not at all scared of a 2nd vote. Bring it on. There are extremely few leavers who will change what they voted for as a 2nd vote is basically an attempt to defy their will.

Remainers want a second vote even though there was a majority over 1 million people. This wasn't a vote for the school council.

Like most remainers say, they want to make sure the people know what they voted for. Well that's what i want to do with the Irish referendum, which you could argue is a more important issue than brexit.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 27, 2018 4:29 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Im going to suggest a 2nd Abortion referendum in Ireland. I want to make sure people know what they voted for.


And ask if it is really to late for Arlene's mom :)
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2370
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 27, 2018 4:47 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Im going to suggest a 2nd Abortion referendum in Ireland. I want to make sure people know what they voted for.


Go for it.

The vote was 67-33, which in parliamentary terms is a supermajority, so exceptionally unlikely the result would change. I doubt either side - winner or loser - will object to a re-run.

Can't say that about Brexit, can we? For some reason, Leavers are scared of a second vote. Why?


I'm not at all scared of a 2nd vote. Bring it on. There are extremely few leavers who will change what they voted for as a 2nd vote is basically an attempt to defy their will.

Remainers want a second vote even though there was a majority over 1 million people. This wasn't a vote for the school council.

Like most remainers say, they want to make sure the people know what they voted for. Well that's what i want to do with the Irish referendum, which you could argue is a more important issue than brexit.


Well then, we agree that if anyone calls for a second referendum because they think people don't know what they voted for, we both support it. Is anyone in Ireland making that claim?

That said, is Brexit really similar to abortion? Everyone in the U.K. has to face the consequences of Brexit. No one in Ireland is going to be forced to have an abortion. It's just not illegal anymore.

Seems you've given this argument as much thought as you have the rest of Brexit. Which is to say, not a lot.

All snappy line. No substance. As usual.

Try harder.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 27, 2018 4:53 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Go for it.

The vote was 67-33, which in parliamentary terms is a supermajority, so exceptionally unlikely the result would change. I doubt either side - winner or loser - will object to a re-run.

Can't say that about Brexit, can we? For some reason, Leavers are scared of a second vote. Why?


I'm not at all scared of a 2nd vote. Bring it on. There are extremely few leavers who will change what they voted for as a 2nd vote is basically an attempt to defy their will.

Remainers want a second vote even though there was a majority over 1 million people. This wasn't a vote for the school council.

Like most remainers say, they want to make sure the people know what they voted for. Well that's what i want to do with the Irish referendum, which you could argue is a more important issue than brexit.


Well then, we agree that if anyone calls for a second referendum because they think people don't know what they voted for, we both support it. Is anyone in Ireland making that claim?

That said, is Brexit really similar to abortion? Everyone in the U.K. has to face the consequences of Brexit. No one in Ireland is going to be forced to have an abortion. It's just not illegal anymore.

Seems you've given this argument as much thought as you have the rest of Brexit. Which is to say, not a lot.

All snappy line. No substance. As usual.

Try harder.


I'm not sure if anyone else in Ireland is making that claim, But I am.

A pro life campaigner may not share the same view as you. Brexit may be considered less important as it's not considered a matter of life and death as someone may consider the abortion issue.

Roll on 31st March 2019 #globalbritain #cantwait #democracy
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 27, 2018 5:32 pm

Arion640 wrote:

I'm not sure if anyone else in Ireland is making that claim, But I am.

A pro life campaigner may not share the same view as you. Brexit may be considered less important as it's not considered a matter of life and death as someone may consider the abortion issue.

Roll on 31st March 2019 #globalbritain #cantwait #democracy


If you're an Irish citizen, take it up with your elected representative.

If you're not, find an Irish citizen who agrees with you that his/her fellow citizens did not know what they were voting for, and have him/her take it up with his/her elected representatives.

If you're right, that should be easy enough. If you can't find any Irish citizens to do your bidding, then it leaves us with little choice but to conclude that you don't actually know what you're talking about.

As for the rest, I don't really care what a pro-/anti-anything person thinks about what other people do within the confines of the law. Their views only matter insofar as they can exercise their own choice in their own individual circumstances.

Brexit and abortion are obviously different beasts, but you're the one who started the comparison here. Brexit affects literally everyone in the UK. I think even you'll acknowledge that abortion will not affect the vast majority of Irish people. Nobody tries to end up in a situation in which they might have to contemplate abortion. The referendum result isn't going to force them to do anything they don't deem necessary.

More important/less important - I'm not getting into that irrelevant game. What I will say is that post-referendum Ireland seems remarkably less divided than the post-referendum UK. I suspect that speaks to the material and tangible impacts of the relevant referendums.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 27, 2018 6:24 pm

[quote="ElPistolero"Brexit and abortion are obviously different beasts, but you're the one who started the comparison here. Brexit affects literally everyone in the UK. I think even you'll acknowledge that abortion will not affect the vast majority of Irish people. Nobody tries to end up in a situation in which they might have to contemplate abortion. The referendum result isn't going to force them to do anything they don't deem necessary.[/quote]

To make it more clear: Brexit effects remainer voters, abortion does not affect anyone whom is against abortion: don't get an abortion if you are against them.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 2:39 am

Goldman Sachs now think brexit was a good idea. They are predicting growth! Fantastic news. Bring on brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -Blankfein
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 am

Arion640 wrote:
Goldman Sachs now think brexit was a good idea. They are predicting growth! Fantastic news. Bring on brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -Blankfein


The article does not suggest that "Goldman Sachs now thinks Brexit was a good idea".

All it says is that Goldman Sachs expects the GDP to grow by 0.1% more in the second quarter (0.5%) than it predicted in its previous forecast (0.4%).

What am I missing? Where does it say (or imply) that GS thinks Brexit was/is a good idea?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 5:03 am

Arion640 wrote:
Goldman Sachs now think brexit was a good idea. They are predicting growth! Fantastic news. Bring on brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -Blankfein


Project fear was always a lie. Freed from the shackles of the EU the UK will become the economic power house in Europe.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 5:24 am

seahawk wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Goldman Sachs now think brexit was a good idea. They are predicting growth! Fantastic news. Bring on brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -Blankfein


Project fear was always a lie. Freed from the shackles of the EU the UK will become the economic power house in Europe.


Agreed. Italy will also be heading in a similar direction.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 6:47 am

The fact that seahawk was trolling should give you a clue :)
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 10:02 am

Arion640 wrote:
Agreed. Italy will also be heading in a similar direction.

The president did not like a critic of the EU as the Finance Minister and since the prime minister elect refused to back down Italy is once again heading for a new election. The only thing I am looking at is to see if the threat of impeachment is taken forward.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 8:27 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Roll on 31st March 2019 #globalbritain #cantwait #democracy


That old chestnut - #globalbritain

How is dumping 65 global trade deals and new upcoming EU trade deals with Australia / New Zealand going global?

How is putting up barriers to free movement of people going global?

How is ending external trade in services going global?

How is leaving a customs union allowing easy movement of goods to the worlds biggest trading block and not replacing it elsewhere going global?

How is leaving the worlds biggest single market and not joining another going global?

How is stopping financial services passporting into the EU and not replacing it with anything going global?

How is leaving scientific agencies and research and not joining new ones going global?

How is leaving the EMA and not replacing it going global?

How is trashing the value of the pound going global?

If you can’t wait for it, good for you, but enough of the bull***t.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2370
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 11:20 pm

Richard28 wrote:

That old chestnut - #globalbritain

How is dumping 65 global trade deals and new upcoming EU trade deals with Australia / New Zealand going global?

How is putting up barriers to free movement of people going global?

How is ending external trade in services going global?

How is leaving a customs union allowing easy movement of goods to the worlds biggest trading block and not replacing it elsewhere going global?

How is leaving the worlds biggest single market and not joining another going global?

How is stopping financial services passporting into the EU and not replacing it with anything going global?

How is leaving scientific agencies and research and not joining new ones going global?

How is leaving the EMA and not replacing it going global?

How is trashing the value of the pound going global?

If you can’t wait for it, good for you, but enough of the bull***t.


It's probably all quite good if you're the type of "Brit" who posts at 0400 BST.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 11:21 pm

Arion640 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Goldman Sachs now think brexit was a good idea. They are predicting growth! Fantastic news. Bring on brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -Blankfein


Project fear was always a lie. Freed from the shackles of the EU the UK will become the economic power house in Europe.


Agreed. Italy will also be heading in a similar direction.


Still waiting for you to show us where Goldman Sachs says "Brexit was a good idea".
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 11:49 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Roll on 31st March 2019 #globalbritain #cantwait #democracy


That old chestnut - #globalbritain

How is dumping 65 global trade deals and new upcoming EU trade deals with Australia / New Zealand going global?

How is putting up barriers to free movement of people going global?

How is ending external trade in services going global?

How is leaving a customs union allowing easy movement of goods to the worlds biggest trading block and not replacing it elsewhere going global?

How is leaving the worlds biggest single market and not joining another going global?

How is stopping financial services passporting into the EU and not replacing it with anything going global?

How is leaving scientific agencies and research and not joining new ones going global?

How is leaving the EMA and not replacing it going global?

How is trashing the value of the pound going global?

If you can’t wait for it, good for you, but enough of the bull***t.


#brexit
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 28, 2018 11:55 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Richard28 wrote:

That old chestnut - #globalbritain

How is dumping 65 global trade deals and new upcoming EU trade deals with Australia / New Zealand going global?

How is putting up barriers to free movement of people going global?

How is ending external trade in services going global?

How is leaving a customs union allowing easy movement of goods to the worlds biggest trading block and not replacing it elsewhere going global?

How is leaving the worlds biggest single market and not joining another going global?

How is stopping financial services passporting into the EU and not replacing it with anything going global?

How is leaving scientific agencies and research and not joining new ones going global?

How is leaving the EMA and not replacing it going global?

How is trashing the value of the pound going global?

If you can’t wait for it, good for you, but enough of the bull***t.


It's probably all quite good if you're the type of "Brit" who posts at 0400 BST.


Considering i'm overseas at +7 BST on holiday i'm sure it's quite ok.

Anyway, here's another great article:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -video/amp
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2370
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 12:45 am

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Richard28 wrote:

That old chestnut - #globalbritain

How is dumping 65 global trade deals and new upcoming EU trade deals with Australia / New Zealand going global?

How is putting up barriers to free movement of people going global?

How is ending external trade in services going global?

How is leaving a customs union allowing easy movement of goods to the worlds biggest trading block and not replacing it elsewhere going global?

How is leaving the worlds biggest single market and not joining another going global?

How is stopping financial services passporting into the EU and not replacing it with anything going global?

How is leaving scientific agencies and research and not joining new ones going global?

How is leaving the EMA and not replacing it going global?

How is trashing the value of the pound going global?

If you can’t wait for it, good for you, but enough of the bull***t.


It's probably all quite good if you're the type of "Brit" who posts at 0400 BST.


Considering i'm overseas at +7 BST on holiday i'm sure it's quite ok.

Anyway, here's another great article:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -video/amp


Nowhere near Ireland then. Interesting.

So tell us, where did Goldman Sachs say Brexit was a good thing? Did you make that up?

In entirely unrelated news, an ex-President of Switzerland, that great practitioner of direct democracy, just poured scorn on the Brexit referendum:

"The vote on Brexit was not an episode of direct democracy, but of stupidity.

The question was not clear enough and there were so (no) solid processes for discussing the advantages and disadvantages in a scientific and political scenario.”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -stupidity

Yeah, we're in that odd place where influential people from a country so admired by Brexiteers are openly insulting the Brexit referendum and its result. Guess Brexiteers like Hannan won't be using Switzerland as an example going forward.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 2:02 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

It's probably all quite good if you're the type of "Brit" who posts at 0400 BST.


Considering i'm overseas at +7 BST on holiday i'm sure it's quite ok.

Anyway, here's another great article:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -video/amp


Nowhere near Ireland then. Interesting.

So tell us, where did Goldman Sachs say Brexit was a good thing? Did you make that up?

In entirely unrelated news, an ex-President of Switzerland, that great practitioner of direct democracy, just poured scorn on the Brexit referendum:

"The vote on Brexit was not an episode of direct democracy, but of stupidity.

The question was not clear enough and there were so (no) solid processes for discussing the advantages and disadvantages in a scientific and political scenario.”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -stupidity

Yeah, we're in that odd place where influential people from a country so admired by Brexiteers are openly insulting the Brexit referendum and its result. Guess Brexiteers like Hannan won't be using Switzerland as an example going forward.


Right so because i'm on holiday somewhere that's not near Ireland, that automatically disallows me to comment on Issues concerning Ireland, what sort of logic is that?

For all you know, I'm an Irish Citizen, or I live in Ireland, or I have Irish Parents.
Also it you're based in europe, an awfully strange time to be on the internet!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 5:00 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

It's probably all quite good if you're the type of "Brit" who posts at 0400 BST.


Considering i'm overseas at +7 BST on holiday i'm sure it's quite ok.

Anyway, here's another great article:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -video/amp


Nowhere near Ireland then. Interesting.

So tell us, where did Goldman Sachs say Brexit was a good thing? Did you make that up?

In entirely unrelated news, an ex-President of Switzerland, that great practitioner of direct democracy, just poured scorn on the Brexit referendum:

"The vote on Brexit was not an episode of direct democracy, but of stupidity.

The question was not clear enough and there were so (no) solid processes for discussing the advantages and disadvantages in a scientific and political scenario.”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... -stupidity

Yeah, we're in that odd place where influential people from a country so admired by Brexiteers are openly insulting the Brexit referendum and its result. Guess Brexiteers like Hannan won't be using Switzerland as an example going forward.


That is true, because basic democracy demands that the options are concrete, while in British referendum only 1 option was concrete, while the leave option was not.
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 5:02 am

Arion640 wrote:
Anyway, here's another great article:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -video/amp


Great article!! Nigel and the Express. Two great experts on the economic consequences of Brexit. Oh, I forgot, Nigel is an expert on everything.....just ask him!
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 8:33 am

Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Roll on 31st March 2019 #globalbritain #cantwait #democracy


That old chestnut - #globalbritain


#brexit


no answer then....?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 9:08 am

This kinda sums up the political choices Theresa May is currently trying to make:

Image

Even if the governments impact assessments are not completely accurate and only in the ballpark, the future doesn't look great.

In the referendum we were promised easy trade deals with the EU and extra cash in our back pocket - this isn't gonna happen.

We need a https://www.peoples-vote.uk/ before we go any further.

#exitbrexit
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 10:08 am

So what are the numbers that the other side of the referendum put up, obviously status quo was not an option, so something else had to be offered, did the people vote in a vacuum?
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2752
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 10:15 am

par13del wrote:
So what are the numbers that the other side of the referendum put up, obviously status quo was not an option, so something else had to be offered, did the people vote in a vacuum?



they told us this:

Image

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-di ... nhs-2018-1
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 10:21 am

par13del wrote:
So what are the numbers that the other side of the referendum put up, obviously status quo was not an option, so something else had to be offered, did the people vote in a vacuum?


For most people: yes. The most google phrase in the UK after the referendum was: what is the EU?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 4:16 pm

Richard28 wrote:

The other side, we all know about the bus and the numbers posted in the previous pictures are all about the Leavers, so what are the number for the Remainers
that the voters did not read or hear as they were too busy looking at the bus.....what are / were the growth numbers for staying in the EU, increased prosperity, increased trade numbers etc etc etc, in essence the sensible part of project Fear.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 4:34 pm

par13del wrote:
Richard28 wrote:

The other side, we all know about the bus and the numbers posted in the previous pictures are all about the Leavers, so what are the number for the Remainers
that the voters did not read or hear as they were too busy looking at the bus.....what are / were the growth numbers for staying in the EU, increased prosperity, increased trade numbers etc etc etc, in essence the sensible part of project Fear.


You mean the status quo? The change leads to less economic growth, that was the whole point. Choose to leave --> most likely the UK will hurt economically. Choose to remain --> business as usual with the economic forecast as was apparent at the time.

So I don't quite understand your question.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
[
You mean the status quo? The change leads to less economic growth, that was the whole point. Choose to leave --> most likely the UK will hurt economically. Choose to remain --> business as usual with the economic forecast as was apparent at the time.

So I don't quite understand your question.

Simple, Leave won, and as the fiasco of leaving drags on, all and sundry are telling us about the false pictures presented by the Leavers.
Well a vote came about because status quo was not acceptable, so obviously there were two sides presented during the vote, one side presented the bus and all the rosy pictures of free trade, taking back control, less immigration, NHS etc etc etc which folks were / are saying was/ is false, the other side presented .....................................................

The reason why this is an issue is because Leave is not in charge, so if another vote comes along, it is quite likely that leave will win again since the UK has never left and does not look like they will be leaving anytime soon. Note that those calling for another public vote like the last election are being careful to say it is not a vote about Brexit but getting a stronger mandate in parliament or accepting / rejecting the terms of the deal, both sides of the political divide have to in public say they will respect Brexit while they ensure it does not take effect.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 8:50 am

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
[
You mean the status quo? The change leads to less economic growth, that was the whole point. Choose to leave --> most likely the UK will hurt economically. Choose to remain --> business as usual with the economic forecast as was apparent at the time.

So I don't quite understand your question.

Simple, Leave won, and as the fiasco of leaving drags on, all and sundry are telling us about the false pictures presented by the Leavers.
Well a vote came about because status quo was not acceptable, so obviously there were two sides presented during the vote, one side presented the bus and all the rosy pictures of free trade, taking back control, less immigration, NHS etc etc etc which folks were / are saying was/ is false, the other side presented .....................................................


Whatever the other side presented was branded as project fear. Which at the time might have been thought as good enough because it worked during the Scottish referendum.

Turns out it's easier to galvanise people on feelings and half-truths (when not outright lies) than it is to present hard numbers.

But, as a key leave figure said "we've had enough of experts".
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 9:16 am

JJJ wrote:
But, as a key leave figure said "we've had enough of experts".


Ok, then the leavers should be consequent and not seek the help of experts in any field if they know it better then experts.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 am

JJJ wrote:
Turns out it's easier to galvanise people on feelings and half-truths (when not outright lies) than it is to present hard numbers.

...and what is being presented now is...............the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...........
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 10:12 am

The decision has been made, so the only thing that matters is to get over with it and that means going all out of the EU by the end of 2019. All ties must be cut by then.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 10:15 am

JJJ wrote:
Turns out it's easier to galvanise people on feelings and half-truths (when not outright lies) than it is to present hard numbers.

But, as a key leave figure said "we've had enough of experts".


And this is now coming back to bite the Brexit process - had the Leave side listened to the experts then their promises/pledges would have been perhaps different more concise and possibly deliverable. Instead they promised the earth with no economic harm, cash savings, better NHS,easy deals with the EU ("they need us more than we need them"), no problems with borders, no mention then (or even now) on how they will deal with customs, no thought for Good Friday agreement, no thoughts on science, space, Galileo, EMA etc etc- just blasé promises that were not fully thought through and could not be fully fulfilled or kept.

The lack of experts being listened to then (and now) is why we are where we are, with the Brexit clock ticking and essential matters still up in the air.
Last edited by Richard28 on Wed May 30, 2018 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 11:21 am

seahawk wrote:
The decision has been made, so the only thing that matters is to get over with it and that means going all out of the EU by the end of 2019. All ties must be cut by then.

Good luck with that one, from the election of a Remain PM, the creation of a Cabinet split 50 / 50 between both sides (there are no structures in UK politics to have the opposing side heard so the Cabinet mus be divided to protect) and a Parliament which does not agree with the vote and or will of the people and you expect what?
Time is already telling, so no need for the old line of time will tell, it is unfolding before our eyes.
Maybe Italy can look at the UK and learn some valuable lessons, however, since they already went down the road of anti-EU rhetoric, it is already too late.
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 12:27 pm

I have been reading these posting for some time now and have decided to chip in my two penny worth now, so here goes

It has been stated here that--- why would any one want to leave an organization that is negotiating trade deals with other countries such as Australia/ new Zealand etc Well One country [UK] can negotiate it's own deal probably quicker, because it is between just two countries not 27 as would be a deal with the EU. Ask the Canadians how long it takes to agree a deal with the EU. I mean can you see the French accepting cheap lamb from New Zealand or the wine making countries of Europe accepting cheap wine from Australia, I doubt it.
If the EU is so keen to agree trade deals with other countries , why are they not talking to their nearest big market which is what the UK would be when it leaves?

Now to the Irish border, we all know that a border does not have to be a line of barb wire fencing with armed border controls. Large packages of goods can be pre-cleared at point of shipping and so can cross the border with no hindrance, it just means the shipping company getting clearance, and i believe that Germany has such an agreement with something like 6000 companies.This must also be the case in big ports such as Rotterdam where the shipping containers are pre-cleared before arrival so as to facilitate the rapid departure from the port. Now with the Irish border, the same as the Polish / Russia border, there is local activity between the local population [traditional] and this was covered, and any problems over come, by a mutual agreement in 2006 by the " Cross Border Co-operation agreement" . So given good will on both sides and agreement could be achieved.

However in the last 2 years I have to say there has not been much interest in negotiation from the EU , but rather how they can punish the UK for daring to want to leave, and I have to say some dithering from the UK for what conditions they want , but the EU tactics are to make it as difficult as possible in the hope that there will be a 2nd referendum which might or might not vote to leave ,

The UK as a country has never really been happy being in the EU and i think for both sides it would be better to accept the UK vote and try and negotiate
a deal which is of mutual benifit
 
JJJ
Posts: 4109
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 12:29 pm

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Turns out it's easier to galvanise people on feelings and half-truths (when not outright lies) than it is to present hard numbers.

...and what is being presented now is...............the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...........


Who is presenting what? All I see is the leave camp with their fingers deep in their ears singing "I can't hear you" over the tune of Rule Britannia and the remainers saying "I told you this was going to be this way, now what?"
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10965
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 12:46 pm

JJJ wrote:
Who is presenting what?

....hence the original question.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2752
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 2:12 pm

vc10 wrote:
I have been reading these posting for some time now and have decided to chip in my two penny worth now, so here goes

It has been stated here that--- why would any one want to leave an organization that is negotiating trade deals with other countries such as Australia/ new Zealand etc Well One country [UK] can negotiate it's own deal probably quicker, because it is between just two countries not 27 as would be a deal with the EU. Ask the Canadians how long it takes to agree a deal with the EU. I mean can you see the French accepting cheap lamb from New Zealand or the wine making countries of Europe accepting cheap wine from Australia, I doubt it.


A few things, trade deals take a long time to negotiate. True the EU take a perhaps a little longer, as there are more voices to be heard (and EU system is of course democratic, so all states have to agree). However you must also take into consideration that the EU is the worlds largest trading block, as such it has much better bargaining power to reach new deals with fewer compromises.

Look at the UK position now, we are faced with concessions on NHS privatisation and chlorinated chicken for deals with the USA just to give some well known examples.

Trade deals are not quick and easy for anyone.

vc10 wrote:
If the EU is so keen to agree trade deals with other countries , why are they not talking to their nearest big market which is what the UK would be when it leaves?


This is what the meetings have been about since the divorce bill and Irish issue was agreed (sort of). The problem is that the UK has not set out clearly what it wants from negotiations, only the "red lines" of what it doesn't want.

The EU has been clear from the set go what the options are on us leaving and what would be acceptable to them:

Image

vc10 wrote:
Now to the Irish border, we all know that a border does not have to be a line of barb wire fencing with armed border controls. Large packages of goods can be pre-cleared at point of shipping and so can cross the border with no hindrance, it just means the shipping company getting clearance, and i believe that Germany has such an agreement with something like 6000 companies.


There are two distinct things here:

Carnets are documents that are used to document goods for import, however these still need to get checked at points of entry, so does not remove need for customs checks. Carnets also cost a lot of money so add to the costs of trade and will be a prohibiting factor in trade with the UK.

There is also the question of import duties and VAT which are further issues to be resolved

With pre-authorisation you may refer to the max-fac option - this is essentially where the UK collects all EU taxes on their behalf to smooth imports/exports. however the EU have already said that (understandably) they would not want the UK to be responsible for the collection of their revenues (just look at China shoes complaint under current system to see why)

There was a recent radio show with a trader discussing these issues and how he took this up with Rees-Mogg who did not have any substantive answers: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-12620627

vc10 wrote:
This must also be the case in big ports such as Rotterdam where the shipping containers are pre-cleared before arrival so as to facilitate the rapid departure from the port.


Dealing with containers on a cargo ship which takes weeks to get here and have stacking proceedures in place is very differnent to the current drive through models on RoRo ferries and the channel tunnel, which are currently straight through with no infrastructure in place to stack or process imports/exports.

Also remember a lot of current UK non-EU imports come through Rotterdam, and once cleared there they currently travel freely into the UK. Brexit will give a further barrier to these goods and cause further delays as they then reach the UK border.

vc10 wrote:
Now with the Irish border, the same as the Polish / Russia border, there is local activity between the local population [traditional] and this was covered, and any problems over come, by a mutual agreement in 2006 by the " Cross Border Co-operation agreement" . So given good will on both sides and agreement could be achieved.


The Poland-Russia cross border participation programme is not a trade agreement and does not remove borders. Instead it deals with areas such as culture, heritage, climate, border infrastructure - details : https://www.plru.eu/en/pages/9

There is a legal agreement in place called the Good Friday agreement , part of which states there will be no border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Whilst good will is needed here, there are also legal requirements to protect the agreement and the EU also has a requirement to protect the single market and its own trade deals - eg prohibit chlorinated chicken to use the well publicised example.

The UK has tried to give technology as an example of how this could help, however no such technology exists elsewhere in the world and it is unlikely to be a robust or acceptable solution in relation to either maintaining the single market (from the EU's perspective) or the Good Friday agreement. the UK has also not even contacted any tech companies to develop any solutions in this area or give guidance.

vc10 wrote:
However in the last 2 years I have to say there has not been much interest in negotiation from the EU , but rather how they can punish the UK for daring to want to leave, and I have to say some dithering from the UK for what conditions they want , but the EU tactics are to make it as difficult as possible in the hope that there will be a 2nd referendum which might or might not vote to leave ,


I have to disagree.

The EU laid out the timetable at the outset of things which must be done and in what order - eg Northern Ireland and Divorce payment, then trade deal. As per slide above EU have been clear in trade deals and what is acceptable to them. The UK on the other hand is still having internal battles over this and a white paper may finally be ready only in two weeks time - a rush to get something intime for the European Council meeting on 28/29 June. But even here it is not clear the Prime Minister will get agreement on the white paper from her cabinet and/or back benches.

Remember the UK is leaving the EU - the EU have said all along that the UK cannot cherry pick what it wants on leaving.

vc10 wrote:
The UK as a country has never really been happy being in the EU and i think for both sides it would be better to accept the UK vote and try and negotiate
a deal which is of mutual benifit


As the Luxembourg PM said recently "Before, they were in and they had many opt-outs; now they want to be out with many opt-ins."

That quote sums it up really.

The UK in my view had a great deal in the EU with the rebate, no euro and no Schengen. We could have gone further and adopted EU rules on immigration but the UK chose not to.

On leaving the EU it is not clear where we will end up - Brexit is now a damage limitation exercise, where the promises of the referendum will not be delivered, hence the argument to have final say once the facts are known.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 2:28 pm

vc10 wrote:
a deal which is of mutual benifit


Maybe you may have noticed that is always the UK side that says what it offers is for mutual benefit. The EU side, having practised UK for 44 years, simply does not trust them.

Why do you think Barnier got a mandate to get all the negotiations written down to the point ?
 
JJJ
Posts: 4109
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 3:47 pm

Richard28 wrote:
There is a legal agreement in place called the Good Friday agreement , part of which states there will be no border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Whilst good will is needed here, there are also legal requirements to protect the agreement and the EU also has a requirement to protect the single market and its own trade deals - eg prohibit chlorinated chicken to use the well publicised example.


Very well put. I am going to add something about why it is not desirable to have a open border with another country with different standards.

Cyprus is currenty split between a puppet government of Turkey in the north and Cyprus, the EU member in the South. Under the green line agreements the whole island is a single market for agricultural goods.

Which means that the trade is only one way because Turkish products treated with pesticides forbidden in the EU and harvested using much cheaper Turkish labour have an enormous edge over Greek-Cypriot products.

That's why trade deals must come with common standards.
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 4:08 pm

Richard28 Thank you for a good response and in answer to a couple of your points
,
Ireland is an island so any imports which are coming into the EU and then into the UK via Ireland will have to come by ship [could be by air I suppose] so the EU would have to clear them first , as they do now but tax any for trans shipment to the UK . For trade from Ireland itself to the UK then goods have to be pre cleared with whatever duty has to be paid already Now as to either sides local citizens crossing the border unhindered in cars , small vans tractors etc well this carries on as normal and the volume of smuggling would possible be quite small but If it should be large then the deal should be altered. What i am saying this is what happens on the EU' other land botders
No the Irish border is mentioned by the Irish governent as a possible way of uniting the whole island of Ireland and the EU grabbed at it as another way of trying to prevent the UK leaving the EU..All these things can be resolved if BOTH sides are willing to negotiate and yo do not know if things will work until you give them a try

Olddog --- That sort of response is what is wrong with this topic
 
Arion640
Posts: 3261
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 4:37 pm

vc10 wrote:
I have been reading these posting for some time now and have decided to chip in my two penny worth now, so here goes

It has been stated here that--- why would any one want to leave an organization that is negotiating trade deals with other countries such as Australia/ new Zealand etc Well One country [UK] can negotiate it's own deal probably quicker, because it is between just two countries not 27 as would be a deal with the EU. Ask the Canadians how long it takes to agree a deal with the EU. I mean can you see the French accepting cheap lamb from New Zealand or the wine making countries of Europe accepting cheap wine from Australia, I doubt it.
If the EU is so keen to agree trade deals with other countries , why are they not talking to their nearest big market which is what the UK would be when it leaves?

Now to the Irish border, we all know that a border does not have to be a line of barb wire fencing with armed border controls. Large packages of goods can be pre-cleared at point of shipping and so can cross the border with no hindrance, it just means the shipping company getting clearance, and i believe that Germany has such an agreement with something like 6000 companies.This must also be the case in big ports such as Rotterdam where the shipping containers are pre-cleared before arrival so as to facilitate the rapid departure from the port. Now with the Irish border, the same as the Polish / Russia border, there is local activity between the local population [traditional] and this was covered, and any problems over come, by a mutual agreement in 2006 by the " Cross Border Co-operation agreement" . So given good will on both sides and agreement could be achieved.

However in the last 2 years I have to say there has not been much interest in negotiation from the EU , but rather how they can punish the UK for daring to want to leave, and I have to say some dithering from the UK for what conditions they want , but the EU tactics are to make it as difficult as possible in the hope that there will be a 2nd referendum which might or might not vote to leave ,

The UK as a country has never really been happy being in the EU and i think for both sides it would be better to accept the UK vote and try and negotiate
a deal which is of mutual benifit


Well written and so much truth spoken. So glad everyone got to read this. Onwards and upwards!
 
JJJ
Posts: 4109
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 4:38 pm

vc10 wrote:
Richard28 Thank you for a good response and in answer to a couple of your points
,
Ireland is an island so any imports which are coming into the EU and then into the UK via Ireland will have to come by ship [could be by air I suppose] so the EU would have to clear them first , as they do now but tax any for trans shipment to the UK . For trade from Ireland itself to the UK then goods have to be pre cleared with whatever duty has to be paid already Now as to either sides local citizens crossing the border unhindered in cars , small vans tractors etc well this carries on as normal and the volume of smuggling would possible be quite small but If it should be large then the deal should be altered. What i am saying this is what happens on the EU' other land botders


You're proposing a border on the sea which the DUP has already said it's a big no-no. And the DUP is May's crutch to the government so....
 
Arion640
Posts: 3261
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 4:46 pm

Fantastic article, I really do hope this can be implemented. Britain is great at the end of the day.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... xit-coins/
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 5:16 pm

JJJ wrote:
vc10 wrote:
Richard28 Thank you for a good response and in answer to a couple of your points
,
Ireland is an island so any imports which are coming into the EU and then into the UK via Ireland will have to come by ship [could be by air I suppose] so the EU would have to clear them first , as they do now but tax any for trans shipment to the UK . For trade from Ireland itself to the UK then goods have to be pre cleared with whatever duty has to be paid already Now as to either sides local citizens crossing the border unhindered in cars , small vans tractors etc well this carries on as normal and the volume of smuggling would possible be quite small but If it should be large then the deal should be altered. What i am saying this is what happens on the EU' other land botders


You're proposing a border on the sea which the DUP has already said it's a big no-no. And the DUP is May's crutch to the government so....


No I am not but should a company wish to ship goods into Eire but for a destination within anywhere in the UK then that company will pay whatever UK duties are required prior to shipping , the container would be sealed on arrival in Eire and trans shipped to it's UK destination, This would i think be quite cumbersome for goods destined to the UK mainland and even goods destined for northern Ireland so probably the vast majority of goods would be sent to UK ports direct
 
JJJ
Posts: 4109
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 5:50 pm

vc10 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
vc10 wrote:
Richard28 Thank you for a good response and in answer to a couple of your points
,
Ireland is an island so any imports which are coming into the EU and then into the UK via Ireland will have to come by ship [could be by air I suppose] so the EU would have to clear them first , as they do now but tax any for trans shipment to the UK . For trade from Ireland itself to the UK then goods have to be pre cleared with whatever duty has to be paid already Now as to either sides local citizens crossing the border unhindered in cars , small vans tractors etc well this carries on as normal and the volume of smuggling would possible be quite small but If it should be large then the deal should be altered. What i am saying this is what happens on the EU' other land botders


You're proposing a border on the sea which the DUP has already said it's a big no-no. And the DUP is May's crutch to the government so....


No I am not but should a company wish to ship goods into Eire but for a destination within anywhere in the UK then that company will pay whatever UK duties are required prior to shipping , the container would be sealed on arrival in Eire and trans shipped to it's UK destination, This would i think be quite cumbersome for goods destined to the UK mainland and even goods destined for northern Ireland so probably the vast majority of goods would be sent to UK ports direct


The containers are never open until final destination, doesn't matter if it passes through Rotterdam or any Irish port. A container coming over from, say, Taiwan can easily have 3-4 boat changes, and it will never be open until final destination (unless authorities at some point see something fishy).

Doesn't matter if any or all of the ports are in the EU.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20113
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 6:26 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Fantastic article, I really do hope this can be implemented. Britain is great at the end of the day.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... xit-coins/


First blue passports, now a Brexit coin! Take that, EU.

I'm so excited a little bit of wee just came out. :liar:

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